Learning to play for October in April

Pie, Cedeno...

Man, I just don’t know about guys like that. They’ve each had plenty of chances and 90% of the time they look totally overmatched by big league pitching. I just don’t think they are major league calibre, especially on a contending team…

I think either of them could be thrown in as part of a major deal at this point in their careers. But if you leave them for one more year tearing up the minors and flopping in the big leagues I think that option vanishes…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 4:15 PM CDT 0 recs

Evan Longoria looked horrible when he first came up.

If he had lost his starting job after 4 days (that’s how long Pie’s “chance” was), TB wouldn’t have won their first playoff game. They had the long view. We didn’t.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 4:22 PM CDT up 0 recs

Pie's had chances in each of the past several years

Granted, Sandberg looked horrible when he first came up too. But I just see nothing that resembles a big leaguer in this guy – I never have. And apparently Cub field personnel must agree with me. He’s the second coming of Corey Patterson – though maybe not quite that good.

I would invite the Cubs to package a deal to an American League team and let him prove me wrong. I promise, I will be the first to eat crow. But we sure don’t need to introduce that flailing bat into this lineup…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 4:34 PM CDT up 0 recs

Most rookies look horrible

for their first month playing. Go back and look at the first months for Dustin Pedroia and Troy Tulowitzki. Go look at what LA has worked Matt Kemp through. Check Pie’s game logs. He has never had consistent ABs at the ML level.

Anyway, Pie’s not the major point.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 4:41 PM CDT up 0 recs

Yes, it goes deeper than Pie.

The organization doesn’t identify what is valuable in a player and to me they have no plan for developing a player. Basically, if a player doesn’t turn out, “Oh, well, most guys don’t pan out” I mean, that’s a horsecrap approach in today’s MLB environment.

It’s even more evident in their willingness to just burn through talented arms. The Cubs have done a great job of identifying MLB arms. Then they seem to take a who give a crap approach to developing the arm and not abusing it.

The Cubs are hindered by their Scouts’ mentality and approach that dictates it’s a mystery as to why players become good so why bother trying to identify and encourage it. if th guy becomes a productive player then everyone congratulates themselves, if he flops or his arm doesn’t hold up to the workload then it wasn’t meant to be—it’s stupid!

by DudeVf11 on Oct 5, 2008 5:26 PM CDT up 0 recs

Excellent Point, the Cubs are late on sabermetrics

They do find good arms though; Zambrano, Prior, Wood, Samardzija, Willis, Nolasco, Pinto.

Hopefully Wilken can work his Toronto magic on our farm system, the first two tests will be Colvin and Vitters.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 5, 2008 7:52 PM CDT up 0 recs

Also when Sandberg came up

the Cubs were terrible and so they could afford to be a little more patient with him while he took his lumps.
I remember reading another team’s scout’s assessment of Pie during spring training-he said that Pie needed to go to a team where he’d get around four hundred at bats and, essentially, learn to use his skills. The problem with pie and the Cubs is that this team is built to win now and so they’re not going to be as patient.
Also-apparently Pie wedged himself pretty firmly in Lou’s dog house during ST when he rejected the Lou and Gerald Peary supervised swing in favor of his old one.
I’d love to be wrong, but I don’t see pie ever amounting to much as a Cub.

by bluekoolaide on Oct 5, 2008 4:48 PM CDT up 0 recs

But see

Pie was never going to cost the Cubs 10 wins, let alone 3. We could have given him 400 ABs. We should have.

If I’m hearing you all right, winning “now” is not winning 97 games in the regular season. It’s winning in October where defense and speed play large. Felix Pie has top notch defense and speed. He should have been ready to produce for us, but management failed.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 5:23 PM CDT up 0 recs

I don't know about that

The same argument was used with with Corey Patterson – that sure worked out well…the only difference is that Patterson had far less pressure to perform…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 5:53 PM CDT up 0 recs

Tons of differences

Here are the basics:

1) Pie performed at every level. Corey didn’t.
2) Pie’s approach showed signs of improvement at different levels. Corey’s didn’t.
But the biggest factor:
3) Corey had a manager who first encouraged the worst parts of Corey’s game and then tried to turn him at the major league level into a kind of hitter he was totally unprepared to be – a leadoff hitter.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 6:27 PM CDT up 0 recs

Pie is a sometimes torrid

sometimes decent Triple A player. We’re all entitled to our opinions but I don’t see this guy as a major league player. Apparently the Cubs see something that makes them agree…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 6:40 PM CDT up 0 recs

Felix Pie doesn't have a future with the Cubs

My sour of opinion of Pie is well documented. The organization seems to concur. Pie will be shipped off somewhere else this winter.

"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)

by MDBNIU on Oct 5, 2008 11:01 PM CDT up 0 recs

Pie and Longoria arent even in the same solar system

Come on…theres already been debates on espn if Longoria is going to end up the Hall of Fame, whereas Pie probably wont even be as good as Endy Chavez

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 5, 2008 7:49 PM CDT up 0 recs

Kind of silly speculation on a rookie

He might just as easily be the next incarnation of Greg Gross. And please, no statistical comparisons!

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 7:55 PM CDT up 0 recs

If true, then my point is even stronger.

If even Longoria can look as bad Pie for a month, then how can you rule out Pie becoming as good as, at least, Jacque Jones?

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 7:56 PM CDT up 0 recs

We can't

But people who do this for a living and work a whole lot closer to the scene can – or at least they’re supposed to be able to. And they obviously don’t see what they need to see from Pie.

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 7:59 PM CDT up 0 recs

But this is where you have overstated the case.

Lou and G. Perry didn’t like Pie. Plenty of other scouts and pros did or Pie wouldn’t have made BA’s top prospect list, what 5 years running? And w/in the Cub organization, Hendry and others still backed Pie and fought Lou.

Look, I’m ready to table the Pie debate, because the answer to what he is will be probably be clear in 10 months. I can wait till then.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 8:02 PM CDT up 0 recs

Plenty of top prospects have been in the same boat

My sister calls them “Four A” players. Anyone remember Scot Thompson? If not, maybe Matt Murton?

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 8:09 PM CDT up 0 recs

Pie's yet to be determined. He's not in any boat yet.

And there are plenty more prospects who flounder for 2 to 8 months before having a career than those who totally wash out. Matt Murton was never as highly regarded as Pie – and when I say “highly regarded” I’m talking about the judgment of scouts OUTSIDE the Cubs organization. This isn’t just Hendry cooking the books.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 8:11 PM CDT up 0 recs

And that's where our opinions differ

I think Pie is a career minor leaguer. So let’s see how it plays out. If I’m wrong I promise you I’ll be the first to admit it. For me personally, I’d rather see the experiment carried out with another organization…let them suffer the growing pains, and, if you’re right, reap the eventual rewards…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 8:44 PM CDT up 0 recs

Longoria was held in way higher regard

even before he got called up…there not even in the same level, Pie is more a product of the Cubs hype machine. Longoria was the third overall pick….and he hit 273 with a 388 OBP in April, not exactly a slow start

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 5, 2008 8:02 PM CDT up 0 recs

Whether we’re talking Longoria or Tulowitzki or Pedroia, we’re talking about top prospects. Pie was once a #23, not as high as Longoria got to be, but still high. And the point is that these prospects almost all look bad at some point in their first 250 ABs. You can’t judge them on flailing away for a time. Longoria isn’t the perfect example, sure, but the point remains in general. I’ve used Longoria lately simply because he and Pie had the same AVG the day Pie was sent down.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 8:10 PM CDT up 0 recs

Gotcha

I see what you mean, but the Longoria comparison, as it turned out, wasnt apt….it doesnt really seem that Pie has the confidence of Lou or the front office….which speaks to the point of the Cubs puzzling developmental strategy

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 5, 2008 8:14 PM CDT up 0 recs

And look at top prospects from years past

Many top prospects never make it in the bigs. Wasn’t Ty Griffin once a top prospect too?

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 8:45 PM CDT up 0 recs

And look at the top free agent signings from years past

Wasn’t Andruw Jones going to carry the Dodgers to the World Series?

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 10:08 PM CDT up 0 recs

After the 07 and 08 playoff...

…debacles, this team needs to play for next October in November, December and January of this year, not April.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 5, 2008 4:28 PM CDT 0 recs

Yep.

Play for next October now. But by all means, no more of this, “We need every game” in the regular season mentality to the detriment of getting the highest ceiling team on the field in October.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 4:36 PM CDT up 0 recs

Second thought...

I was thinking about what you said and wondering what we could have done differently last off-season, to “play for October in November.” And one thing that struck me was how perfect a fit everyone thought Fukudome was. He was disciplined, a top defender, good on fundamentals, everything that we thought would help counterbalance the undisciplined remnants of Dustydom. He was LH. He was an OBP guy. He seemed perfect.

So, how did the perfect acquisition play out? He faded down the stretch. Now we’ll never know how much of that is on Dome and how much on the coaching staff and how much was just lost in translation. But Dome succeeded at the ML level and then couldn’t. And management publicly dissed him before benching him, then playing him, then benching him, then playing him in the playoffs, then throwing a tantrum at him. All this while a guy in Mike Fontenot was giving us everything we wanted from Dome.

Management could have handled Dome much differently. They could have invested in him more fully. They could have rested him while he was hot and rostered a Fukufriend, trying to ease transition. They could have dropped him and turned to Fontenot completely. Instead of picking a guy and showing confidence in him, Lou was erratic. He should be the rudder.

I don’t know, but when I look at the Cubs down the stretch, rudderless seems a fairly spot-on description. We’ve got to play to win in October in November, but what could have been done better last November?

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 5:36 PM CDT up 0 recs

The league caught up with Fuludome - Pure and simple

There was plenty of time and patience afforded him to adjust to the adjustment. He failed. And that’s when everything blew up.

If we’re going to demand a winner a few egos will need to be bruised along the way. Yes, it could have been hndled more consistently. But perhaps the playing-benching cycles were merely an attempt to let the guy work it out and see if he couldn’t put it back together, and then see if he did. I’m not sure how else you do this.

The one thing that was out of line was the tantrum. What can I say? Lou was mad at the world just like the rest of us. It was a mistake and he probably regrets that moment at this point…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 5:59 PM CDT up 0 recs

It's hardly that I'm against bruising egos (because I'm not)

it’s that Lou had plenty of time to decide whether or not the league caught up with Dome to the point that Dome wouldn’t readjust. If Lou decided Dome’s not a major leaguer, then you sit him without the public hullabaloo. Worry about bruised egos over Thanksgiving dinner. Play Fontenot and win.

On the other hand, if Lou decided that Dome was just exhausted and slumping, that he could bust out and win, then play him and tell him you are confident he’ll break out. And, for the sake of everything Cubbie, don’t play him two games against two top-notch pitchers, flip your lid saying he’s no good, and take him out against the pitcher he was most likely to hit.

Lou’s treatment of Dome in the post-season was nothing short of absurd.

You bench him and play Fontenot and tell LBR he’ll do well. Or you play Dome and tell him he’ll do well. To do neither is a simple failure of management.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 6:34 PM CDT up 0 recs

I agree that Lou's outburst was uncalled for...

…but to be fair his reason for playing Fukudome was never that “he would break out of it”. His reason was “We need his defense.” Little did Lou know he wouldn’t be able to afford the useless spot in the lineup…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 6:44 PM CDT up 0 recs

"Need his defense" is more nonsense.

Either you commit to him or you commit to Fontenot. Playing it halfway by implying you don’t believe he can hit (and who can hit Billingsley when he’s on?) is bad leadership.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 7:13 PM CDT up 0 recs

He had fans and media to answer to

He knew he would be asked questions whichever way he chose to play it. Everybody – most of all Fukudome – knew he couldn’t hit. Sugar coating that fact would merely have made him look even more like an idiot…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 7:18 PM CDT up 0 recs

If everyone knew Dome couldn't hit,

then don’t play Dome. The defense of DeRosa in RF is fine enough.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 7:34 PM CDT up 0 recs

Apparently Lou didn't think so

I’m not sure I agree him, in fact, I agree with you – DeRosa would have been fine in right. On the other hand, maybe Lou knew a little bit more about DeRosa’s leg issues than we did. If DeRosa had suffered a serious injury because he was played in right while injured imagine the grief he would have taken…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 7:46 PM CDT up 0 recs

What did Lou think? Did Lou even know what he thought?

That’s exactly the question for me. We should have known. The team should have known. It should have been clear on September 1 who would be the starting lineup on October 1. But, no, we’re even playing around with Micah Hoffpauir on the last day of the season. Micah Hoffpauir!?!

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 7:58 PM CDT up 0 recs

Lou knew what Lou thought

That last roster spot can always be an issue. By the way, on September 1st how can you possibly commit to a complete roster? So much can change in the course of a month. I would venture to say he had 90% of his roster set before the last week. So shoot the man for trying to deside whether to with Ward’s reputation or Hoffpauir’s relative versatility…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 8:03 PM CDT up 0 recs

I'm not talking about a complete roster.

I’m talking about who the RF might be and who would be hitting 2nd.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 8:12 PM CDT up 0 recs

If it's not cut and dried

like, say, Lee at first, Ramirez at third, doesn’t some fo that boil down to immediate factors, such as who the other team has pitching, the mobility of the alternative player, the kind of ball you need to play? Would I have played Fukudome? Probably not. But I can think of two compelling reasons to do so, and even bet him second:

1) DeRosa was more hurt than anyone let on and would have been limited in mobility. The play where Fukudome tripped over the bullpen mound? What might have that done to DeRosa?

2) As cold as the man got, he never completely lost his batting eye. You got a tough sinker baller going, maybe you like your chances of Fukudome drawinga walk or two more than Fontenot getting a hit…

In retrospect, and maybe even in foresight, it wasn’t the best decision. But it probably wasn’t a totally irrational one either…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 8:51 PM CDT up 0 recs

They were on the right track...

…with Roberts but it just didn’t workout.

Who knows whether a legit leadoff guy could have been the sparkplug this offense so desperately needed to get going and grind out a key run or two, but it is much better than what they have had in that spot.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 5, 2008 6:57 PM CDT up 0 recs

Fukufriend

haha, I like it. They tried with Matsui though right? At least his name was mentioned a whole lot over the winter.

Fukudome and Rich Hill are going to be the biggest mysteries IMO this offseason….I loved watching Hill pitch and I hope he can make it back

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 5, 2008 7:55 PM CDT up 0 recs

I wouldn't hold my breath

and even if he does come back, I’m not sure about having two of those soft tossing, sweeping curve ball pitchers in the same rotation…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 7:57 PM CDT up 0 recs

Nice Post:

“The argument that we can’t afford to develop players through the season was always wrong. What we can’t afford is not to develop players. We can’t afford to be so focused on getting to the playoffs that we mine our highest ceiling options.”

This is a problem at the heart of the organization, it isn’t just Lou. In Fact, the GM should set this tone and hire a manager who will implement the GM’s plan for the organization. The Cubs don’t take this approach and as an organization they seem far to willing to put 100% of player development on the player. I still do not understand what the Cubs see as a valuable player. it’s just a hodge podge. until that changes very little will change, unless we just get ridiculously lucky in a given season/playoff series.

Lou did a very poor of managing his pitching staff in the regular season and it caught up with us.

I agree 100% with your comments about the No. 2 spot and the players available, and the RF situation.

This organization has no plan for becoming great, they got a bunch of guys by spending a lot of money and they can compete with the NLCD teams.

I don’t think anything changes until major changes are made at the top.

by DudeVf11 on Oct 5, 2008 5:19 PM CDT 0 recs

this is almost in lockstep

with all of my feelings about the organization

the one thing i’ll add is that for some reason Lou managed games with “more urgency” in April and May then in October. I’ll never understand this, it completely boggles my mind. Rich Hill would walk 4 guys and get taken out immediately, no matter how early in the game it was or how rested the bullpen was. In game 1, arguably the biggest game of the season given the importance of getting one win and loosening guys up, with the lead he elected to let Dempster continue to walk us into danger. No one was warming, no options were made available and sure enough a LH hitter who makes his living off of RH pitching got a hold of a pitch and ended our series.

While it seems simplistic, i truly believe the entire tone of the series changes if Marshall gets out Ethier OR Loney. We go into the bottom of 5th (12 outs away, knowing you can use Marmol and Wood for 9 of them) with a 2-0 lead and the top of the lineup coming up.

If we win that game, guys are so much looser in game 2 and everything is different….

In April or May Lou made that trip to the mound over 90% of the time, in October he played it conservative. Just like he did by playing Fukudome in games 1 and 2 despite not playing him in half the games in the 2nd half. He went with the “traditional” starting lineup routine instead of riding the hot hand, something that’s a staple of him during the regular season.

The poor performance is for the most part on the players, no doubt. But for the life of me I can’t fathom why our manager switched gears in the playoffs and in turn stopped putting our players in the best positions to succeed.

by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 5, 2008 6:50 PM CDT up 0 recs

Playing harder in April than October - you hit it spot on.

Lou admitted he was worn out through the season.

I totally agree about Marshall/Dempster.

But the bigger point is playing Fukudome, as you pointed out, despite not playing him in the second half. How do you spend two months telling a guy you don’t believe in him, then bat him 2nd and ask him to believe you have suddenly changed your mind?

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 7:18 PM CDT up 0 recs

The first night...

…I could understand playing Fukudome, especially with the right handed LA hitters for his defense in RF. The second night, I do question and I also question batting him 2nd in game one.

With that said, that is not even close to the reason this club lost and I think what you saw on the field makes that pretty obvious.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 5, 2008 7:20 PM CDT up 0 recs

I meant...

…left handed LA hitters.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 5, 2008 7:21 PM CDT up 0 recs

I agree it's not close to the reason the club lost.

What it is, though, is another example of the rudderless tone Lou sets for the club.

Let’s say this for Dusty. You could be Neifi Frakking Perez and Dusty would make you think you were Honus Wagner. He showed confidence in his guys. His way was one extreme that led to a lack of discipline and lineup sinkholes.

Lou’s is the opposite extreme. You can be an All-Star RF, a top 25 BA prospect, or one of the best left-handed relievers heading down the stretch and Lou can make you feel like you wouldn’t start in his beer league. Great players should still rise above that. And it also tends to keep poor players from stinking up the lineup.

But we need some balance here. Let them fight it out for 2 months, for 4 months if you will, but once you determine what the best roster will be, tell those guys they earned their spots because they’re champions in the making. Build them up and lead.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 7:33 PM CDT up 0 recs

Good players answer the challenge

They come out fighting! Dusty’s way as you describe it breeds inane marriages to the Corey Patterson’s of the world. Heck, he still hasn’t given up on Corey Patterson.

As a manager, you can’t fall in love with pet players. You coddle them if you think it’s necessary and you whack them if you think it’s necessary. Ozzie Guillen whacked the White Sox several times this year and they responded…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 7:51 PM CDT up 0 recs

I agree that Dustyism was a mess.

The point I’m trying to make is that the Pineilla Play appears to be the mirror image mess in the playoffs. The Pineilla Play leads to 117 win teams because it constantly tinkers and finds out what will work best each day of the season. But that meandering management style breeds uncertainty and self-doubt in many players. Not all players. But enough players.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 8:00 PM CDT up 0 recs

Professionals don't worry about that

They go out and do their jobs. Most of these guys make more money in one year than we as average shmoes will see in our lives. They can deal with Lou’s tinkering, and, if they’re so fragile that they can’t,, they can move on!

Lou’s job is try to win games. The player’s jobs are to accept their roles and play in them to the best of their abilities. The Mike Fontenots of the world understand that. The prima donnas might not…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 8:06 PM CDT up 0 recs

So, you're telling me that while most of what I'm reading

is that these guys were buckling under pressure that a) Lou’s lack of demonstrated confidence had no impact on them and/or b) that they’re all prima donnas?

Look, the players failed. It’s not all on Lou. But his leadership methods could have changed the tone and environment of the clubhouse for the better. That’s all I’m saying.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 5, 2008 8:15 PM CDT up 0 recs

Essentially, yes

I’m saying that a player who is paid as a star but lacks the confidence of a star to the point where media, fan, or managerial criticism completely shuts them down is a prima donna. In Boston, Manny was a prima donna. Absolutely!

I don’t know what went on in the clubhouse, and what Lou or anyone else did or didn’t do. Maybe they could have brought in a Len Dykstra firecracker type to raise some h-ll in the clubhouse. I don’t know. But I don’t think it’s Lou’s handling of the players that did it. I can hardly see where coming down on Fukudome would explain, for example, Ramirez’ putrid performance…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 8:59 PM CDT up 0 recs

in one sentence

you’re offering a possible explanation in which Lou may have been able to fix things

in the next you’re saying the way he handled things wasn’t responsible.

Do you see the contradiction?

In one sentence you’re saying there’s a possibility that exists that maybe could’ve been done by Lou that would’ve altered things

In the next you’re saying the way he chose to handle things wasn’t the reason

by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 5, 2008 9:04 PM CDT up 0 recs

It's always easy to second guess

I don’t even know that he didn’t do something like that. Maybe Bill Murray was invited in. Who knows?

My point is, I don’t think what Lou did or didn’t do impacted the series nearly as much as you have stated…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 9:12 PM CDT up 0 recs

and how much have i stated?

because these are my comments with regards to how much is on Lou:

“The poor performance is for the most part on the players, no doubt. But for the life of me I can’t fathom why our manager switched gears in the playoffs and in turn stopped putting our players in the best positions to succeed.”

i’ve said it time and time again, this is on the players! But if you’re going to give Lou the majority of the credit in the regular season, you have to give him the same amount of responsibility in the post season

For me it’s 98% players, 2% manager in BOTH regular season and post season

by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 5, 2008 9:16 PM CDT up 1 recs

Maybe even a littel heavier on the manager

And Lou has to accept some responsibility and I’m sure he will. I just don’t think Lou deserves anywhere near the lion’s share of the blame for this debaucle.

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 9:34 PM CDT up 0 recs