Mistake Was Made the Last Reg. Season Game
by SpudV on Oct 5, 2008 7:09 PM CDT
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PrintWe can all scratch our heads (or whatever) and try to figure out how this Cub's squad could lay such a big egg and get swept in the first round, again. The Dodger's pitching was good but not that good. The Dodger's hitting was timely but unfortunately helped by Cub's blunders. Manny Ramirez did not beat the Cubs, the Cubs beat themselves.
Yeah, this is hindsight, but the best way that the Cubs should have went into the playoffs was on a positive note by doing their d$^%est to win against the Brewers. The last game was close, where the I-Cubs kept it close against the Brewers starters, but in the end Howry gift-wrapped a gopher pitch to give the Brewers life. Though they were also eliminated in the first round, beating a divisional rival and denying them a postseason berth would have been sweet.
If Lou had made his starters play (except DeRo and maybe Geo) and given them a special incentive to win the game, the starters would have participated in a playoff-like atmosphere, gotten some game-speed hitting in, and played as a team for a goal. The incentive could have been something silly, like the coaches buying a case of beer (Milwaukee's Finest?) for the players if the Cubs had won, or Lou could have had a golden bratwurst prize to the game MVP.
Instead, the starters were rested to the point of not being sharp, so they could not get their game to a playoff level. Sometimes you have to take a chance and make sure your starters are ready to go before going into the playoffs. The Cubs starters were not ready.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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+100000000000000000000000000000000000000
along with poor decision on the game 1 starter…..Fukodome in the lineup……….enuff to can Lou’s old ass!
Dempster earned the start.
No one expected him to be as wild as he was.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 5, 2008 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions
So who should have started?
I understand the Fukodome argument, but not the starter. Dempster has been the most consistent pitcher all year…
Couldn't disagree more...
…this is a lame lame excuse for this teams performance.
Lets assume for a moment the play the Mets, what makes you believe the result would have been any different? Your pitcher walked 7 guys and the infield makes 4 errors in game 2.
I am really tired of ifs ands or buts when this team simply DID NOT SHOW UP TO PLAY.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
+1,000,000
In 2003, the Cubs clinched on Saturday and played nobody on Sunday. The made it to within 5 outs of the World Series.
Try again
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
Or they can just change the rules
and allow teams from the same division play on another in the NLDS
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Wasn't an option for this team
And, as has been stated, the Nationals would have taken them in this series. Come to think of it, didn’t the Nationals win a series against them? When this team was good this year they were very good. And when they were bad, they utterly sucked. and mostly they utterly sucked after facing a dominant pitching performance.
In this series, they sucked! Royally!
You lost me
The Nationals?
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
They could have played anyone and lost
Given their quality of play. Brewers? Mets? Phillies? It wouldn’t have mattered…
They wouldn't have beaten a high school team the way they played.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Correct...
…it amazes me that people think the play on the field would have magically been different because of the opponent.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
OTOH...
… the Mets, in particular, were in disarray. Had they sneaked in, they might have played as poorly as the Cubs.
Oh, well. Spilled milk, and all that.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Or they could change the rules
to just have the teams with the best record in both leagues play each other in the WS. Oh wait, they already did that.
Tommie Agee was out.
And if those rules were in place...
We’d be down 3-0 to the Angels
At some point, you have to win a short series. That’s how it’s been for more than 100 years.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
I don't disagree with you
but at least then they would be playing in a World Series. Although the Angels are down 2-0 now and don’t look any better than the Cubs. Well that’s not true; they don’t look anywhere near that bad but they have lost 2 in a row to the wildcard team. I started telling myself in 1970 “if only they would play in a world series I wouldn’t care if they won or not so long as they are in it.” I really don’t know if I still feel that way but I would like to find out sometime in my lifetime. They haven’t shown that they can win a short series that really counts in a while. Maybe the one game in 1998 or whenever it was for the wildcard playoff. That’s it.
Tommie Agee was out.
by Weeghman Park on Oct 5, 2008 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I wasn't around in 1954...
But I have a hard time seeing how Indians fans felt good about making the World Series after watching a 111-win team lose 4 straight to the Giants.
When your team gets through a postseason without a win, I don’t think it matters much what you call the series.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
If we would have played the starters....
people would be bitching that the reason we lost was that they weren’t fully rested.
Thanks for the wild ride, Cubbies, but, in the end, I'm feeling nothing but nausea...
They had Borowski...
…on WGN this afternoon, and he said the club looked like they lacked energy and that is the time you need 1 or 2 guys to set the example, which he said didn’t come close to happening.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Or they could change the rules
to say any team that loses for a century automatically gets the championship in year 101 if they make the playoffs!
I agree completely
I have been thinking about starting a fanpost about this very subject. I totally get it about how the players totally laid eggs, but I put alot of this at Lou’s feet.
First, we didn’t seem to have a clue about these new dodgers. They knew everything about the cubs. The cubs just saw the mets, and they had some nice success against them with their “b” squad. They didn’t have to scout the mets because they just played them and already knew what to expect. Plus, the mets would have been in the tired situation of just having clawed their way into the post season (a la 2007 cubs).
Second, and this is in hindsight, I would have started Z. He has been nuts lately. I get it. However, he has been the most consistent BIG game pitcher the cubs have had for years. Dempster has been a tremendous stopper this year. I would have preferred flipping them from the start. I don’t think that they are the biggest reason for the losses though.
Third, is Perry advising Sori, DLee, ARam, etc… that the book on them is to pitch them outside? All they do is swing at everything out there and try to pull it. They should have been looking outside for every pitch, pick a zone, and try and go the opposite way with everything until the pitchers adjusted. Through the entire series they tried to pull everything, and that resulted in ground ball city.
Fourth, everybody should have been able to keep playing even after the cubs clinched so that they could keep their timing and played relaxed. Instead they got to watch and wait for the inevitable games that will have the pressure ramped up again. They weren’t adjusted.
Fifth, starting Dome? Seriously? WTF. He did nothing to suggest that he would be ready to perform at the end of the year. Also, screwing with the lineup in every game? Dome batting second for the first time in forever? WTHOLYF. Then by changing it every next game he was siliently telling the players that even LOU was panicking.
Last, his game decisions were crap. Too many to list (ever hear of the hit and run?).
Lou is 0-6 in the post season. He feels the pressure. I’m sick of this team of folding chairs when it matters. Holy Shit….where’s the Tylenol?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missourah." - Abe Simpson
First...
…You;re abolutely right about the scouting issue. The organization needs to look in the mirror.
Second, this is hindsight. If we happened to get bad Z instead of good Z the series is shot (like it wasn’t with Dempster?) But Dempster was the most consistent pitcher this year.
Third, I can’t believe the premise is true. Who in their right mind would advise these guys to try to pull the ball because you would only see outside pitches. Where in the world did you hear that Perry was advising that strategy. Any decent fan, let alone a professional ballplayer, would hear that advice and go “Huh?”
Fourth, I think the post that said had he played the regulars the screaming would have been that they weren’t rested enough.
Fifth, I wouldn’t have played Fukudome either. All I can think is that DeRosa was really more injured than anyone let on.
Last, the total lack of production really limited his ability to make decisions like hit and run.
Lou is not 0-6 in the postseason – he won a world series. And he could possibly have won another had this team played anywhere near its potential…
Sorry, rant confusing worded kinda???....
on the third note, I don’t think that Perry advised them to pull the outside pitches. That would be lunacy. What I meant (but worded poorly), was that either he (Perry) a) didn’t have any idea what the opposing pitchers were doing to our hitters, b) our hitters weren’t listening, or c) they got good advice, they tried to go the other way, but they are not skilled. I am not sure which of those three scenarios (or maybe one that I am missing) went down.
On the fourth note, I agree with the earlier post. You rest pitchers, you don’t rest hitters. At least, you don’t rest them REPEATEDLY. Their timing gets thrown off. This is why players go through the minors on rehab stints. Get some timing back. Lou should have known better. It wasn’t as though they were being rested in the searing heat of the summer. It was September fer crying out loud.
Fifth, while that may be true about Dero’s injury, why not play Johnson in right? I know it isn’t his natural position, but as good a defender as he is, I am sure he could have adjusted. Or, play Dome, but don’t bat him freaking second.
We had guys on base. We never tried it (to my memory). Heck, Torre did it on the second pitch in the at bat on his first opportunity in the second game. It is called putting pressure on the defense. It worked brilliantly for him (started the contagious defense lapses of game 2).
Lou is 0-6 with the cubs. The team with immense pressure. Remember, Lou was also the manager of the 116 win Mariner team that tanked in the first series in the postseason that year. I don’t dislike Lou, but I don’t think that he is the messiah. He has a much better team than any cub manager that I can remember (I am 32), so he should be able to win more games during the regular season (assuming everyone stays relatively healthy).
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missourah." - Abe Simpson
It occurs to me
Taht an awful lot has been made of Lou’s resting players too much. Other than Soto and DeRosa, who had minor injuries, who did he rest for more than one day at a time?
Johnson in right? Haven’t the cries on the post all night been about consistency? How would putting Johnson in right possibly added stability and consistency? All it would have done is taken a left handed bat out of the lineup and forced a righty who has been platooned all year to face a tough right hander…
View this and draw your own conclusion
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHC/2008_lu.shtml
Look at the starting lineups since Sept 21. He rested some players every other day.
Manny Ramirez didn’t rest every other day.
Muscle memory is critical. So is taking an occasional day off. I think resting every other game may have taken some players out of their rhythm.
That’s my opinion,and I’m sticking to it. I have an entire winter to think about it.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
Muscle memory?
these guys have all taken about 5 million swings at a baseball in their lifetime, and a little rest after 155 games will do nothing to lose that. These guys take batting practice the days they don’t play, they don’t sit on their ass and eat cookies.
I don’t know how many on this board have played a lot of baseball, but when you play as much as these guys do, getting a way from it a little really freshens your mind and if anything, should make you sharper.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
+1
you’re right. They know how to swing a bat. Without thinking about it. Just do it. And for whatever reason they didn’t. Go figure. I don’t know what happened. I think they internalized all the bullshit 100 year/goat/Bartman/69 swoon history and just thought about it too much. The talent was there; the 5 cent minds let them down, Meat. Why don’t they let us help? We know how to solve all their problems.
Tommie Agee was out.
by Weeghman Park on Oct 5, 2008 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions
You may be right about scouting...
…but how do you know the advanced scouts didn’t deliver excellent scouting reports on both the Dodger’s lineup and pitching staff? Were you in the pitchers and hitters meetings when they went over the scouting reports?
They may have nailed the Dodger’s right on the button, but the players simply failed to execute. Just because the players fell on their face, does not mean they weren’t given good guidance on the opposition.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Of course I have no ACTUAL idea.
It is called speculation. That is beside my point anyway. The cubs players were able to do their own scouting on the Mets just a couple of days earlier. I will take game knowledge/experience before actual scouting anyday.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missourah." - Abe Simpson
The way the players...
…performed on the field (which is all that matters) your assumption is a signficant reach.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
......stretch.....
In times of despair, when there are no answers….I am looking for some.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missourah." - Abe Simpson
The answers may be a challenge...
…but the issues that need to be addressed are pretty clear.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
If we won that game...
..in Milwaukee, the Mets and Brewers would have tied, forcing a wild card playoff which would have been played in NY. If NY won, we would have played the Mets, and Santana’s arm would have fallen off by the time we faced him. Lou botched that game big time and I agree that this “resting the lineup” contributed to the massacre by the Dodgers.
Bottom line is, pitchers need rest, hitters need reps!
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
I repeat again
With the way these guys played, they would have lost to anybody. They weren’t just slumping at the plate, they weren’’t just having some bad outings. At times they literally played like little leaguers. The Mets would have clobbered them too…
Thanks for re-stating the obvious...
…but its funny how some folks always run to blame the guys who were not on the field.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I disagree..
..simply because I think the lull in AB’s contributed to the shitty AB’s against LA. Had we played our starters and kept it competetive, we would have had a good chance against NY had we won in MIL, and MIL lost to NY. Obviously, we’ll never know, but I believe sitting your best hitters before the postseason hurts more than it helps — look at the 100 win Angels who clinched even earlier.
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
Whats your excuse...
…for Dempster in game one then?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Pressure and nervousness
n/t
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
Excuses, excuses
Did you realize that Soriano, Theriot, Lee, Ramirez and Johnson (due to the lefty Sabathia) all played the last game? DeRosa didn’t since he was hurt.
The players didn’t show up. I’m not sure they would have beaten the Mets either.
not just the last game....look at the last week and a half. Their timing was disrupted.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missourah." - Abe Simpson
And if they played every game
and they still lost in the playoffs, everyone would be saying that they should have been rested.
It is a no-win situation. Piniella did a good job giving all of them playing time along with some rest. I really don’t think that the rest caused this awful performance.
no, I wouldn't...because this was unique to the cubs. The other teams were not rested.
If the cubs kept playing, as did the other teams, then this would not be a difference between the teams. It IS a difference now, and as such, it can be evaluated.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missourah." - Abe Simpson
Good point!
I admit I forgot about the starters on the last day. I still would have preferred a Mets team with tired starters and a shi* bullpen.
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
They did not go with a "starting" lineup since Sept 21
the day after clinching.
The Cubs played guys that were not on the playoff roster: Hill, Hoffpauir, and McGehee.
Yes, Soto was resting an injury, but playing these guys plus Blanco, Pie, Ward, and Johnson (who saw no post-season playing time) off-and-on instead of the regular starters since Sept 21 may have factored into the Cubs playing flat in the playoffs.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
I still think it is an excuse
DeRosa played the least down the stretch and he hit a HR in his first AB.
Dempster pitched well in his last outing. 7 walks and his worst performance of the season wasn’t due to lack of rest.
The Cubs needed someone to lead on the field and no one could. No big hits, a very tense team that just couldn’t break out of it. I just don’t blame that on rest. It wasn’t like they didn’t play. Everyone got some playing time.
+1
Enough of the excuses. Every team has pressure to win in the playoffs. If you lose more games than you win, your ass goes home. Plain and simple. The Cubs played poorly and the Dodgers played better. I’m tired of these weak excuses of why this team looked so bad. Too much rest might affect players in the first couple of at-bats, but not a whole series. They just stunk the joint out and looking for excuses wonn’t serve anything. They choked. I hate to admit it, but they choked.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 6, 2008 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Combination
The Cubs played extremely awful, and the Dodgers played average. Cubs would of lost to the 2006 Cubs
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
Average???
They outplayed us in EVERY way possible. We got our asses handed to us!
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
That is...
…right after the Cubs handed their own asses over to the Dodgers on a platter.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
He should've never put Howry in that game
Howry let Milwaukee sneak in the playoffs.
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
As I recall, there were some BCBers who wanted the Cubs to open the playoff door for the Brewers
A quick search found this post: http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2008/9/21/618759/question-should-we-let-mil
The Cubs had some say as to who their first playoff opponent would be, the Dodgers or Mets.
Lou said he would not lie down the last two weeks; he would be put a competitive team on the field. Does playing guys like Hill, Hoffpauir, McGehee, Pie, and Ward the last two weeks sound competitive to you?
I think Lou’s plan to rest his players backfired. They came out flat.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
And I stilll think it's an excuse
The only ones who really got excessive rest were Soto and DeRosa – and they both had minor injuries…
See my response above
every other day for some players
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
Lou had the luxury of resting players by clinching early
If we were still in the playoffs, we could say that helped.
Unfortunately, we’re not. We played flat. It’s my opinion that we waited at the finish line waiting for the other team to catch up and we couldn’t get out of our recliners fast enough.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda
It’s all speculation so so what. Hitting is contagious so where was Hoffpauir? Soriano “The Streak” shoulda been benched for Reed after an O fer. It doesn’t matter because I was at game 1 and I never saw anyone through the three games who wanted to be there, not even Soto. I gave out roses to Derosa (despite the error, and first pitch out with a man on third), Marshall, Cotts and Z who I was waiting to explode but never did and that’s it. the only players on the team who seemed at all ready to play. Not ONE other person was rooting for each other, or anything. I felt bad for Lilly, Johnson and Blanco, all of which would have done a better job than those who played. You could see it on their faces as they watched. First time I’ve been blamed as a fan so that was a new one this year, despite yelling for 3 hours straight at Matt Kemp.
Also
I do agree with the post (see Rockies) but it’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation. What were they saying over and over about the teams that led the division never making the WS though? I got to think it’s because they aren’t sharp with the time off.
Eye of the Tiger
The aspect I was trying to get across was the fact that the Cubs could have made that last game a “playoff practice”, with Lou doing more to win the game. Looking back at the box score I see that our “big” bats (Soriano, Theriot, Lee, Ramirez) were there at the top of the order, but then Lou put in Johnson-Hoffpauir-Cedeno-Blanco. As Al had in his recap for the game, having Howry in that situation in the 8th inning would have been questionable at best if the game had been “needed” by the Cubs.
We’ve all heard the lack of heart and leadership excuses, but I sensed a lack of (cue the Rocky theme song) “eye of the tiger”. Did they want it bad enough to take a beating in the first round, but come back up for the second round? They started out playing not to lose instead of playing to win, and never recovered after the first game. Yeah, I don’t have any real evidence of that, but that’s the impression I got.
Pie, Fontenot, Theriot and Soto up the middle ... yippie oh, oh, oh!
Oh, that's a crock of shit
Dempster walked the universe in game 1. BTW, where was Rothschild? Like so many times this season, he was a day late and a dollar short. This wasn’t the classic Marquis one inning in the shitter. Demp had zippo on the control all game except the 4th inning. Talking with him in the dugout is fine but there are better times to pick to come out to the mound. In the 5th inning, it was before the innings’ 3rd walk.
ALL FOUR INFIELDERS made an erra (according to that slap-jawed creton calling games on TV) in game 2. DeRo, D-Lee, Rami & TheRiot in that order. I could not believe what was going on. In fact if TheRiot did a Dunston, I could have wound up with a wild throw right in my lap.
The entire team could not punch their way out of a paper bag in game 3. After the Soto leadoff double, no run and then how pathetic was Soriano to end the game. Couldn’t have made contact with a hockey stick.
Those are the reasons they lost. If they had to play a game #163 and then got swept, there would be people crying the players were too tired.
They flat out stunk up the joint. I was there for game 2, very very close to the field behind the 1st base dugout and saw first hand up close and personal just how tight they played. Even when they actually made outs on defence, they looked bad (e.g. the DeRo/Lee IF pop-up). Their body language at the plate was not the same thing I saw many times during the regular season.
This team flat out sucked! Game #161 absolutely nothing to do with it.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
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