Two words: Curtis Granderson

by Zeke on Oct 6, 2008 11:57 AM CDT

Attention Jim Hendry: go all out this winter and trade for Curtis Granderson of the Detroit Tigers. The Tigers need starting pitching. The Cubs have a surplus.

Granderson immediately solves several huge problem areas for the Cubs- center field, lefthanded bat with pop, base stealer and leadoff batter.

Admit the two year indulgence of Alphonso Soriano at leadoff is a failure. Get Granderson in there for 2009. He'll cover more ground in the outfield and even make Soriano better defensively by playing along side him every day.

As for which Cubs starter to trade? Well, you are going to have to give to get. It will take one of the front line starters and perhaps a reliever as well.

Forget Brian Roberts. He isn't the solution.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation, Bleed Cubbie Blue, or Al Yellon, editor-in-chief. FanPost opinions are, however, valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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two more words

FELIX PIE

check Granderson’s minor league numbers vs. Pie’s (they’re nearly identical)

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=5730

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=11427

by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 6, 2008 12:04 PM CDT 1 recs

yep, give pie a chance first i say

“a chance” meaning something longer than 50ABs at a time

by Cubinator on Oct 6, 2008 12:10 PM CDT up 0 recs

+100

Except for that alot of fans would rather Pie develop into the next Granderson for another team.

by StevenABQ on Oct 6, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up 0 recs

yeah i've said it before

the PERFECT comparison to Pie is Granderson. Not an ideal leadoff hitter but a guy who can mash righties, play above average defense in CF and generates enough pop to overcome some deficiencies in OBP

by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 6, 2008 12:16 PM CDT up 0 recs

It's an excellent comparison...

…and one I’m still hanging much of my hope for Pie on. Unfortunately, I’m not sure whether Lou will ever give him enough of a chance to succeed.

So this is how it ends.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 6, 2008 12:29 PM CDT up 0 recs

The Cubs have done a bad job

bringing along youngsters that need to learn on the job. Guys like Theriot and Fontenot were already finished products by the time they came up to the team. We need to do what the White Sox did with Brian Anderson. They were expected to contend and did yet they allowed a rookie to learn on the job. We should do the same. If there is any spot where you can afford to bring along an offensively inexperienced player it is center field. I just hope that Lou has patience and sticks with him during the highs and lows.

by dakoose on Oct 6, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up 0 recs

unfortunately that same argument

was made in April and May of this year (and we did end up making the playoffs by a healthy margin) and Lou didn’t want to go with it

now we’re out of options with Pie and we have to play him or ship him, can’t send him to the minors anymore

by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 6, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up 0 recs

Yeah, that last sentence sums it up...

Piniella is NOT going to be patient with Pie. If Pie remains on the team as of next spring (and the Cubs don’t invest heavily in another RF or CF in the offseason), Pie had better hope he hits the cover off the ball immediately. Otherwise, he’ll be banished to the bench or traded. Piniella has shown that he’s not exactly patient with young players. I’ll be surprised if he reverses course with Pie.

by SouthernCub on Oct 6, 2008 12:25 PM CDT up 0 recs

he did that this year

in spring training…. it meant nothing

by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 6, 2008 12:32 PM CDT up 0 recs

Well, I wouldn't go that far...

Pie hit .256 this spring, with 2 HR and 2 2B in 39 AB. Those aren’t awful numbers by any means, but they aren’t evidence of hitting the cover off the ball in my opinion. I was suggesting that Pie needs a Hoffpauir-like .413 avg with 4 2B, a 3B, and 2 HR.

But I agree with your main point: Piniella didn’t exactly give him any kind of leash this year. And he won’t do so next year either (assuming Pie is even still in the mix).

by SouthernCub on Oct 6, 2008 12:41 PM CDT up 0 recs

you sure those aren't stale?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/cubs/spring.htm

USA Today has 26 more AB’s than ESPN.com

BATTERS BA SLG OBA G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS E

Pie .338 .538 .386 22 65 14 22 35 5 1 2 8 5 14 3 1 0

by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 6, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up 0 recs

Yes, it appears that ESPN's numbers are outdated.

Based on USA Today’s numbers, I’d agree that Pie was hitting the cover off the ball.

Regardless, we agree that Pie won’t get any sort of leash from Piniella. That’s assuming he’s even in the mix.

by SouthernCub on Oct 6, 2008 1:11 PM CDT up 0 recs

The problem with that argument is Brian Anderson

has stunk at the MLB level while having a decent minor league career.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Oct 6, 2008 3:50 PM CDT up 0 recs

decent minor league career

yeah the guy has mustered one season above a ball in which he posted an OPS above .755.

comparing Brian Anderson to Felix Pie isn’t a particularly useful comparison

by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 6, 2008 4:05 PM CDT up 0 recs

Right... the better example would be...

someone like Evan Longoria or Stephen Drew. I think the Sox did the right thing by trying to stick with Anderson last year. He just doesn’t seem like he was the right guy. Anderson exhibits the danger in being patient with a young player, rather than the benefit.

by SouthernCub on Oct 6, 2008 4:06 PM CDT up 0 recs

His name is Alfonso.

I find it difficult to take posts seriously when players’ names are grossly incorrect.

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Oct 6, 2008 12:30 PM CDT 0 recs

+27

by Galvan316 on Oct 6, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up 0 recs

He is the Alpha and the Omega.

The beginning (of the lineup) and the end (of all hope of succeeding in the postseason).

So this is how it ends.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 6, 2008 12:39 PM CDT up 0 recs

I don't think

Mr. Dick Stockton agrees with you. If it was up to him, the pronunciation would be “Adolpho.”

by dakoose on Oct 6, 2008 4:54 PM CDT up 0 recs

Two Words

Wont Happen

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 6, 2008 12:49 PM CDT 0 recs

Can I get the apostrophe to go?

So this is how it ends.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 6, 2008 1:10 PM CDT up 0 recs

I like to keep it casual

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 6, 2008 1:21 PM CDT up 0 recs

I like Granderson too, but as he is just

about the best player on the tiggers, good luck.

I believe the key is identifying the talent before it explodes. The only problem I identify with the Cubs is a track record of identifying talent after it has exploded and is uber expensive.

But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night

by N Oakley on Oct 6, 2008 1:38 PM CDT 0 recs

Two Words

Not Available

by IllinoisCubs on Oct 6, 2008 1:43 PM CDT 0 recs

Please stop...

I know there are a ton of saddened fans around here, so I haven’t said much. However, this is starting to get silly. Curtis Granderson is a star, and his marketing potential alone is enough to make sure that he remains a Tiger. There’s been talk about them dumping some contract this off-season, but Ordonez, Renteria not returning, and Guillen leaving are much, much more likely.

And honestly, if you think that someone with Brian Robert’s game isn’t the answer, then you really, really haven’t been paying attention.

by Damen Jackson on Oct 6, 2008 1:47 PM CDT 0 recs

Remember when so many people hated the idea of going after Roberts?

by SouthernCub on Oct 6, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up 0 recs

Not really...

I never got the impression that most didn’t like the idea, just that they preferred the players who would have gone back the other way. I mean past the extreme DeRosa fanatics, I think most fans could get behind the idea fundamentally.

Interesting though to see how badly Hendry wanted him, and how easily the Cubs got bounced by not having the tools that he brings.

by Damen Jackson on Oct 6, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up 0 recs

What are you even talking about?

He’s a good player, but it’s not like he magically makes everyone else on the team hit better. Jeez.

I has a blog. | Ask a sabermagician!

by cwyers on Oct 6, 2008 2:35 PM CDT up 0 recs

I think a LOT of people were opposed to getting him...

for a variety of reasons (some of which you listed here).

by SouthernCub on Oct 6, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up 0 recs

That is, perhaps, a fitting final footnote to this tragic season.

Although, the way the Cubs played in the postseason, I’m not sure how much difference one solitary player could have made.

So this is how it ends.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 6, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up 0 recs

I completely agree...

And frankly, I’m Roberts agnostic. But that type of game is really more the idea, than any particular player.

by Damen Jackson on Oct 6, 2008 2:43 PM CDT up 0 recs

Agreed...

and saving Patterson, Murton and Gallagher for Harden/Gaudin may wind up being better long-term value. Just pointing out the irony.

I’m not sure if it would have made any difference if we’d had Roberts, and I’m not sure yet if I’m glad or sad that we didn’t make that move (a lot will depend on what Harden/Gaudin do moving forward). But it does seem like a guy with that toolset would have been useful in retrospect.

by SouthernCub on Oct 6, 2008 2:57 PM CDT up 0 recs

...because second base was our problem? Is our problem?

Hell, it’s the only position I think you can reasonably say we’re overstocked at!

I has a blog. | Ask a sabermagician!

by cwyers on Oct 6, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up 0 recs

No...

Although I’d argue Roberts is a slightly better fielder.

When you start looking at a lefty to break up that top four or five, the ability to manufacture some runs, and some legitimate plate discipline at the top of the lineup, he looks very appealing.

by Damen Jackson on Oct 6, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up 0 recs

How does Roberts break up the lineup batting leadoff?

I has a blog. | Ask a sabermagician!

by cwyers on Oct 6, 2008 2:38 PM CDT up 0 recs

Honestly,

I think the Cubs would more likely slide him into the two-hole. Whether we like it or not, Soriano is likely to remain a fixture there. The best you could hope for is a more conventional lead-off talent hitting behind him.

by Damen Jackson on Oct 6, 2008 2:40 PM CDT up 0 recs

We only have a limited amount of resources...

…and very few trading chips left. Why should we blow them on a position where we have TWO players who look to be league average at the position rather than filling our much larger needs at CF/RF and shortstop?

I has a blog. | Ask a sabermagician!

by cwyers on Oct 6, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up 0 recs

It would seem that Furcal is the better fit...

given that he plays SS and is a free agent. That said, he’s also likely to be pretty expensive. But if we’re looking for a guy to give us essentially what Roberts does AND address one of the deficiencies without trading away prospects, it would seem that Furcal fits the bill.

by SouthernCub on Oct 6, 2008 2:59 PM CDT up 0 recs

I could get behind Furcal personally...

as again, I’m discussing the toolset, and not the players. Roberts is simply the best known example, and a potential target.

by Damen Jackson on Oct 6, 2008 3:04 PM CDT up 0 recs

I'm guessing the payroll to be

around $125M. With that number and the need to pay a starting pitcher (Dempster or the like), payroll will have to exit for talent to arrive.

But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night

by N Oakley on Oct 6, 2008 3:10 PM CDT up 0 recs

Thats the point

Roberts’ skills are needed, but his position is not, but our current starter is one of the most versatile players in the league, so I think with some tinkering it would work, but Id rather they get Roberts’ skill set at SS

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 6, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up 0 recs

Well, apparently

the Cubs thought so as well. And perhaps still do. I suppose we’ll see soon enough.

by Damen Jackson on Oct 6, 2008 2:39 PM CDT up 0 recs

Agreed on that.

DeRosa, Theriot and Fontenot are all decent options at 2b.

But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night

by N Oakley on Oct 6, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up 0 recs

remember when we talk about Roberts

its Roberts – DeRosa – Harden

the reason i say this is because Roberts production would’ve had to come at the cost of DeRosa’s playing time AND the chips we used to acquire Harden would’ve been necessary to acquire Roberts

so with that said, would you all rather have had Roberts than DeRosa AND Harden in this scenario?

by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 6, 2008 3:15 PM CDT 0 recs

Well, all things being the same...

….I’m guessing DeRosa still would have gotten a lot of playing time if Roberts had been acquired. He probably would’ve ended up platooning with Dome in right field from July on and taken over right field entirely late in the season when Kosuke was effectively benched. Plus, he still would’ve played a lot of left field while Soriano was on the DL. I guess he may not have gotten the nearly 600 PAs that he did, but maybe 400?

And I have to wonder just how much good Rich Harden did this team. I mean, he had some great games and definitely helped the Cubs put some wins on the board. But could Sean Marshall have done the same thing at the back of the rotation during the regular season? And could Ted Lilly have pitched just as well in the postseason?

Just playing devil’s advocate here. I kinda went back and forth on the Roberts trade when it first came up and, ultimately, just wanted to see it go away because I was sick of hearing about it.

So this is how it ends.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 6, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up 0 recs

i follow you

my point is how much better could Roberts really have been in those extra PA’s he’s taking away from DeRosa? I mean… DeRosa was pretty damn good this year.

As for Marshall vs. Harden, I feel pretty certain that Marshall couldn’t have replicated Harden’s numbers as a Cub (ERA+ of 254 in 71 innings)

could we have won most of those games and still won the division? Sure we could have i suppose (we did win by 7.5 games in the end), but I feel pretty secure in saying there’s no way Marshall could’ve matched Harden’s performance.

I went back and forth on the Roberts trade as well, but given how the season played out I don’t see how you could argue that would’ve been a good trade to get us through the regular season in better shape.

Roberts had an OPS+ of 118
DeRosa had an OPS + of 120

AND we used those same pieces to get Harden! (who we have for next year, hopefully for more than his usual 50+ innings)

by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 6, 2008 4:10 PM CDT up 0 recs

Yeah, I knew I was stretching it a bit...

…on the Sean Marshall thing. I think the reason we keep going back to Brian Roberts is many folks are still hung up on having a bona fide leadoff man. As if the Cubs just had one of those kinda guys in the one-hole, everything else would fall into place.

I’m not sure one way or another but, again, to play devil’s advocate, this team does seem to live or die depending on whether Soriano is hitting. And when Alfonso turned into a block of ice in the postseason, so did the team. I can’t help but wonder that, if Soriano was taken out of that leadoff role and put lower in the lineup, maybe he’d cease to have just a pervasive effect on the team.

So this is how it ends.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 6, 2008 4:39 PM CDT up 0 recs

i think it goes back to Lofton

man our offense sure looked different with Kenny at the top even with a less intimidating middle of the order.

I’m with everyone on the leadoff guy kick, i really am. I’m just saying looking at how the season played out objectively i’m not sure how you could argue making that trade would’ve improved our team any more than what we accomplished

the biggest problem we have on the whole isn’t the lack of an ideal leadoff man or a dominant #1 or a superstar player…

its the lack of an ability to develop consistent talent at the ML level. Look at all the teams that have advanced and you’ll see a consistent pattern of in-house options developed. These options are relatively cheap and allow you to pick and choose your spots in FA to spend. It allows teams to not put themselves in the financial position we’ve put ourselves in going forward.

People want the quick fix this offseason and are desperately trying to figure out what it is. The problem is there really isnt one. We have so little roster flexibility and so little talent coming up through the system we’re kind of stuck with what we got and hope for the best. It’s the main reason i’d MUCH rather see this team be willing to cut bait at the top on some impending FA’s the next two years (Dempster, DeRosa, Marquis, etc). Let these guys walk, collect some picks and lets start flexing our muscles in the draft!

by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 6, 2008 5:40 PM CDT up 0 recs

Don't forget to also subtract Fontenot

because he has no roster spot if Roberts is here, and whatever you think about Fontenot going forward, he was arguably our best hitter per AB in 2008.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 6, 2008 4:54 PM CDT up 0 recs

Wish he could freakin' play shortstop.

So this is how it ends.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 6, 2008 5:00 PM CDT up 0 recs

So I guess that

leaves us with this question: Do they move DeRo to RF, Fonte to second? I’m curious to see how comfortable everyone is with Fonte being a regular.

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Oct 6, 2008 7:59 PM CDT up 0 recs

Well, I hate to bring money into this...

…but for the number of dollars that Fukudome was signed for, I have to believe the Cubs are going to give him every opportunity to play everyday again next season. Given the Cubs need for left-handed bats, I would like to see LBR get more playing time,but it’s hard to find a place for him.

So this is how it ends.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 7, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up 0 recs

Money always matters. Fukudome will be in RF next year. He

might not stay there, but he start out there.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 7, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up 0 recs

strong point as well

n/t

by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 6, 2008 5:34 PM CDT up 0 recs

Organization's never have a surplus of starting pitching.

The Angels a a prime example. Everyone wondered why they traded Orlando Cabrera for John Garland as they looked like they already had a stacked rotation.

What happened? One of their starters went down for the season.

The DL is filled with starting pitchers (and relief pitchers) that teams were counting on that went down unexpectedly. Planning ahead to have a surplus allows a margin of error when it comes to injuries that every staff is likely to encounter throughout the year.

I like the cliche, when you think you have enough pitching, go get some more.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Oct 6, 2008 3:56 PM CDT 0 recs

I liked Granderson a lot on the TBS studio show

and during that, thought he would be good to get. Completely impossible without gutting about everything the Cubs have in the minors (not a ton), but I would like to have him on our team.

by Canseco's Roid Party on Oct 6, 2008 4:24 PM CDT 0 recs