Micah Hoffpauir
by nick3308 on Oct 6, 2008 5:46 PM CDT
96 comments
Not too sure if this has been discussed at all so i'm gonna put it out there...
If Kosuke Fukudome doesn't show improvement next year in the spring, or beginning of the season, I think Hoffpauir should be slated as the starter in right field.
He showed this year he can play some outfield, while he may not be the best defensive option out there, he can provide some more pop in the lineup with a left handed at bat.
I know minor league stats don't mean much (look at Felix Pie) but hes shown potential at both levels ( remember I believe it was a 4 for 5 or 5 for 5 game against the mets in which he had i believe 2 home runs and a double or two)?
Also bring edmonds back, but give pie one more chance in centerfield, move soriano to the 3rd spot, lee in the 5th or even 6th spot.
I know its wayyyyyy to early but...
Pie
Theriot
Soriano
Ramirez
Lee/Soto
Soto/Lee
DeRosa
Hoffpauir
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You didn't watch actually watch Hoffpauir play RF this year did you?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 6, 2008 5:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
..
well I didn’t get a chance to watch late into the season because i’ve been down at college so I couldn’t get the games on tv here. Like I said though, hes a left handed hitter with some pop that I think should be given a chance in RF, considering RF at Wrigley is probably one of the toughest positions to play. He can work on it in the spring, but theres no way hes gonna play first base with the cubs at the ML level with D-Lee there.
"Slump ? I ain't in no slump. I just ain't hittin." --Yogi Berra
by nick3308 on Oct 6, 2008 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
by dtpollitt on Oct 6, 2008 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't the fact
that Wrigley’s right field is one of the toughest more of a reason to NOT play him in right? It seems like u think that the difficulties our right field presents is a reason to place a poor fielder out there. Listen, Micah probably belongs on a big league roster or at least be given a chance to make one, but he shouldn’t be a big league starter, at least not on a contending team.
by dakoose on Oct 6, 2008 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Put him at first
and dump Lee. sign Manny and move Soriano to 2nd or rf and Fukudome to cf.
by cubswin on Oct 6, 2008 5:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow...you make that so easy....and with the worst defensive LF'er AND 2nd baseman in baseball...
we’ll have an interesting season.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 6, 2008 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That begs the question...
…if the Cubs (or any team, really) went out of their way to get the best bat AND worst fielding at each position, who would be where?
by Flatley on Oct 6, 2008 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Hendry dropped
Lee, and put Hoff and first, I’d lock Jim in a closet, and never let him eat donuts again.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
by TCobb1911 on Oct 6, 2008 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Lee
… why no bat him 2nd in the line up. It seems to be a good fit with his power and SLG % declining…
Thoughts?
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on Oct 7, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not entirely related....but check out the Big Donkeys Wrigley Stats
There was another thread discussing Dunn replacing Lee at first, presumably started by me:
In 60 games:
23 HR, 44 RBIS,49BBs,.286AVG, .419OBP, .664 SLG
Hes also had fielding percentages at 1B ranging from .941 to .989, but he split time b/t there and left.
So thats my take, if there is anyway to trade Lee, Id sign this guy in a snap if Tex is out of the realm of possibility
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Oct 6, 2008 6:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Gotta get him to sign off on it.
As is the case with so many starters on our team, Lee has a full no-trade clause.
by Flatley on Oct 6, 2008 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok,
so what happens when Dunn leaves Wrigley, and his 160 K’s per year come with him? A trade like that, in my mind, would be absurd. Lee plays much to well at first, and hits about 60 pts better, with 40-50 less K’s. And there is not doubt that his OB% numbers, and BBs are a result of not having the greatest offense. If you put him in the Cubs lineup, I’d bet his OB% and BBs plummet.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
by TCobb1911 on Oct 6, 2008 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Batting AVG is irrelevant
when youre getting walked as much as he does
In 2008 Dunn was walked 122 times to Lees 71, Dunn has a career .381 OBP to Lees .367….so Dunns copious strikeout rate is irrelevant, not to mention Lee has only scored over 100 runs once, to Dunns 3 times (and another 99 run season)
You put him in between Ramirez and Soriano, Id bet he’d get on base just as well. He had 42 BB in 44 games, and their offense is certainly better than the Reds.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Oct 6, 2008 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
42 BB in 44 games with the Dbacks*
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Oct 6, 2008 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, who in that
offense is even close to the threat that he is?
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
by TCobb1911 on Oct 6, 2008 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also,
the last 4 season, Derrek Lee has averaged on OB% of .386 to Dunns .381. This year, Dunn had a better OB% by .27 on a bad baseball team. Of course they’re not going to pitch to him. Also, when it comes to runs, the last Lee has averaged 101 runs in his last 3 health seasons. Dunn has averaged 96. I in no way see a large enough upgrade anywhere, to warrant taking Lee out of their defense.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
by TCobb1911 on Oct 6, 2008 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well he's a lefty which they need
And younger and more of a run producer, he has 150 or so less RBIs in four less seasons than Lee.
Listen, this all started b/c people are suggesting Lee should be traded, and of the available 1B, hed fit just fine, assuming Tex goes elsewhere.
And using your logic, if the Cubs offense is more of a threat than the Dbacks or the Reds, than he should be walked more and have more RBI opportunities if he hit behind Ramirez and Theriot
If by some stroke of magic the 09 Cubs looked like this:
Roberts 2b
Theriot ss
Ramirez
Dunn
Soto
Soriano
Derosa (RF)
Pie
I think thatd be pretty potent, and Dunn could easily reproduce Lees numbers, with more power
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Oct 6, 2008 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, lemme ask this.
Let’s say you have a guy with a career line of .279/.348/.422. At the age of 33, he puts up a .285/.376/.481 season. How do you think he hits in his age 34 season?
(Yes, this is DeRosa I’m talking about.)
I’m just intensely curious as to why people think that because DeRosa had a career year, he’s suddenly able to capably fill a corner spot full-time?
by cwyers on Oct 6, 2008 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DeRosa
I think with DeRosa, especially, you want to look more at the last three years than the career line. Specifically, I am heartened by DeRosa’s walks going up each season. I think that DeRosa’s a good bet to avoid outs. I wouldn’t play him in the OF, but I would look at him at 3B where his defense plays well. Compared to other CoFs, I don’t think DeRosa looks like an option. Compared to other 3B, I think he does. Is that fair?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Oct 7, 2008 7:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you look at a component aging curve...
…walks will pretty much increase every season until retirement. It happens.
Most projection systems use between three to five years in their projections, and they weight more recent seasons as more important. For hitters, I’m using a 5/4/3 weighting system – I just run a simple Marcels projection, pretty much exactly as Tango does it. I come up with a .277/.357/.433 projection for DeRosa. Brian Cartwright, who runs a much more sophisticated projection system than that, comes up with a .283/353/.433 line for DeRosa. (For position players who have been in MLB a good while, projections really aren’t that hard.)
That’s not bad for a 3B – average NL 2B in 2008 was .265/.335/.441. But we didn’t have an average NL 3B, we had Aramis Ramirez. It looks like a big comedown either way to me.
by cwyers on Oct 7, 2008 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lee is on the downslope of his career
ANd the Cubs need a big Lefty bat in the middle of the order. Screw Manny, I’d go for Teixeira and Trade Lee for a Right Fielder. It’s totally obvious that Pukie will never be a quality MLB player. Blatantly obvious. I"m aware Lee has a no trade clause, but I bet he wouldn’t mind leaving Chicago. I don’t think he really likes being here. I could handle another season of a platoon of Edmonds and Johnson if the Cubs could get Teixeira. Then you could put the hackattack of Soriano in front of Teixeira, where he in theory, would see more fastballs. Although, I think he’s so stupid, he’ll never figure out that good pitchers, pitchers that are on playoff teams with good control, throw him nothing but offspeed down and away and he’ll still swing.
I’d also like to see them go after Furcal as well. If Cuban is the Cubs owner, here’s what my lineup would look like:
Furcal SS
Derosa 2nd
Soriano LF
Teixeira
Ramirez
RFer acquired for Lee
Soto
Edmonds/Johnson
As far as starting Pitching goes, I’d say thanks for the Career regular season Dempster, but adios. Then go hard after Lowe and pick up Harden’s option. Then maybe go after a pitcher who has promise and should be relatively cheap (MLB wise) say someone like Oliver Perez. I would be coo with a rotation of:
Lowe
Lilly
Zambrano
Perez
Harden
If they made those moves, they’d suck me right back in.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Oct 7, 2008 2:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately
Mark Teixeira is not a free agent. He is a Yankee, waiting for Baltimore to make its final offer.
Lowe is an interesting option.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Oct 7, 2008 7:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
is this a video game?
they’re going to sign EVERY FA on the market? EVERY ONE????
asinine
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 7, 2008 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point. Why did you leave of C.C.?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 7, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not convinced that Edmonds...
will be able to repeat what he did for the Cubs this year…. I think it’s dangerous to count on him. Keep him as a utility outfielder fine, but don’t bet on decent production from in in ’09
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on Oct 7, 2008 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I expect jedmonds
will want real money to keep playing. The Cubs only paid him peanuts, but he was very well compensated between the Cards, Pads, and Cubs.
For $1M, yeah keep him, but $5M, no.
But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night
by N Oakley on Oct 7, 2008 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO...
“He can play some outfield, while he may not be the best defensive option out there…”
Why would you want a downgrade in RF? He’s a horrible fielder and is not an everyday player for a championship caliber team. I believe we either stick with Kosuke, trade for Roberts and put DeRo in right, or sign a left-handed RF.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Oct 6, 2008 6:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
With that lineup
I am sure that we won’t even sniff the playoffs. Pie is NOT a leadoff hitter. We are not even sure if Pie belongs in an every day ML lineup right now , let alone lead off.
by cubsnlinux on Oct 6, 2008 7:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
theres a reason
hoff power is a 50 yr old minor leaguer. ok i’m kidding but he’s not a regular major leaguer plain and simple.
I BELIEVE!!!! GO CUBBIES!!!!!!!!!!
by cubsluver22 on Oct 6, 2008 7:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Why not have Micah
a little higher up in the lineup. Put him in the fifth hole to drive in some runs.
by 100yearitch on Oct 6, 2008 7:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
First of all
we’re getting crazy with Micah. Look what Dome did in his first 200 ABs or so. Once they get the book on Hoff, he’ll probably drop like a lead balloon too. This team isn’t in a position to take a chance with a guy like Hoff, and NEVER should he be put in a critical spot like the 5 hole. That’s way to big of a risk to put an unproven guy. I’m not sure why everyone says “get rid of Lee!” His numbers aren’t awful, not even bad! He’s the only one that actually hit in the playoffs through the three games. Lee would be great in the 6 hole. Great. Now its just where do we find a 3 hitter? Or do we get somone/move someone to the cleanup spot and have Aram hit 3?
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
by TCobb1911 on Oct 6, 2008 7:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you trying to kill Ron Santo?
Santo is dead in the booth within two weeks if Hoff is the regular RF.
Look at the AL teams. Look at their prospects. Find someone you like and trade the natural born DH there.
There is nothing wrong with Lee that a move down in the order can’t fix. I personally like a little defense with my video game baseball. Lee and Dome stay.
It’s not just the balls hit to the Hoff. I guarantee you that when Lee leaves, Theriot and Ramirez’ errors go up as well.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Oct 6, 2008 8:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Again, Theriots arm..
can cause some of those errors…..doesnt the guy just look like a second baseman?
Do we have any shortstops coming up the pike? That Korean kids probably several years away right
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Oct 6, 2008 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 on trading him to the AL
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on Oct 7, 2008 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome to the offseason!
N/T
Can't wait for the Cubs in '08!!!
by fuzzycubfan on Oct 6, 2008 9:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I like his bat a lot...
…and although he is not tested over time in the bigs, he certainly has produced some decent numbers so far.
With this said, I don’t know what position he played at AAA, but it would be difficult for him to improve his defensive abilities enouph to where you don’t cringe everytime the ball is hit to him.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 6, 2008 9:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Mostly 1B, Some RF, Some LF
He’s a first baseman by trade. He’s only okay defensively there. He got a taste of LF and RF at AAA.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Oct 7, 2008 7:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless Hoffpauier becomes adept at pinch hitting he doesn't have a major league future
Look, the guy is a below average 1st baseman who has zero business playing the outfield despite Lou Piniella’s fascination with experiments. His future at this level is serving in a Daryl Ward type role. Not very many guys, particularly power hitters, get good at pinch hitting and the ability to come off the bench cold.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 6, 2008 10:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Micah Hoffpauir is not a major league player.
At best he’s a platoon DH. We don’t have a DH in the NL. May as well trade him now while he might have some marginal trade value, probably added with another player or two.
Hoffpauir, Pie and a pitching prospect MIGHT bring you some major league bullpen help, but that’s about all.
Micah Hoffpauir is a poor man’s Jack Cust. And even that’s a stretch.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 6, 2008 10:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hoffpauir isn't Jack Cust at all - that's the problem.
For comparison’s sake, Jack Cust swings at 63% of pitches in the strike zone, and only 15% of pitches outside the zone, or about 38% of all pitches he sees. Cust is incredibly patient and selective, and he makes contact with 65% of the pitches he swings at. That’s how you can manage a .375 OBP on a .231 batting average.
Hoffpauir, on the other hand, hit an incredible .362 in AAA this year and only had a .393 OBP to show for it. That is a great big warning sign, a giant flashing light that all is not right with the world.
Hoffpauir, on the other hand, swung at 73% of pitches in zone and 33% of pitches outside the zone, or 53% of all pitches seen. Hoffpauir is the exact sort of undisciplined hacking machine as Soriano.
That would maybe work out for him, except for this simple fact. Let’s look at a stat similar to ISO, Power On Contact, or (Total Bases-Hits)/(At Bats-Strikeouts). (I believe the actual name is Power Percentage, but I like Power on Contact.) It’s a measure of raw power. Keep in mind, this is based on sample data, but why the hell not:
Hoffpauir: .286
Soriano: 326
We can slice it up a dozen other ways (Soriano’s .252 ISO to Hoffpauir’s .192 ISO), but Hoffpauir simply doesn’t have Soriano’s white-hot power, which is a hell of a difficulty for a guy with Soriano’s plate discipline skills.
by cwyers on Oct 7, 2008 12:42 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
And before everyone mistakes the point I'm trying to make here...
…this isn’t entirely about taking walks and getting on base. This is about making pitchers throw you strikes – because if you don’t make them throw strikes, they won’t throw you strikes. It’s hard to make a living hitting when pitchers don’t have to challenge you in the zone.
by cwyers on Oct 7, 2008 1:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Hoffpauir...
…drive in some increbible amount of runs this year at AAA. If I recall, it was something like 90+ RBI’s in only 300+ AB’s. I could be wrong on these numbers but I believe they are in the ballpark.
Anyway, if you are driving in runners at this rate, you are doing it by doing some serious damage with the bat and being aggressive.
I agree this guy has no full-time position with the Cubs, but something in me would be very curious as to what this guy could do as a full-time DH (or close to full-time) in the AL.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
100 RBIs in 290 ABs.
Of course, that’s 75 ODI (Others Driven In), because of the 25 home runs. The PCL in general has a lot of homer-friendly parks and homer-friendly pitchers, so I wouldn’t expect him to maintain that level of production in the majors. Probably good doubles power with some home run production, but I don’t think enough to offset his liability when it comes to getting on base.
by cwyers on Oct 7, 2008 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for that...
…and looking at that, even if this guy was 35, I don’t see why a small market AL club would give this guy a shot to DH in 100+ games against righties.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because almost everybody in the PCL...
…had some old-for-his-level washup put up that kind of production? Trot Nixon came pretty close to duplicating Hoffpauir’s level of production last year, in aggregate if not in the distribution of SLG to OBP. Nobody gives a rat’s ass about Trot Nixon’s PCL production.
The real prospects are the guys on that list like Clement, who hit like that before their peak. The Rangers don’t need Hoffpauir if they have Nelson Cruz, the Angels don’t need him if they have Sean Rodriguez. The Royals don’t need him if they have Mike Avilez. It’s not that hard to scrape one of these guys up of the pavement.
by cwyers on Oct 7, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So...
…your not the least bit curious what this guy could do if given a chance?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See Felix Pie.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 7, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Completely different swings...
…and completely different results in their limited major league AB’s. Hoffpaur K’s a lot, but a 500+ slugging is not shabby so far.
I’m not saying I want him full-time with the Cubs, I am just curious how this guy could do if given an extended chance with someone else.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't referring to their ability as players at all. Far from it. I
was referring to your statement “…your not the least bit curious what this guy could do if given a chance?” It seems that a few posters have made the same statement about Pie, That was my point.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 7, 2008 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I'm Micah Hoffpauir...
…I’m on the phone to my agent every single day this off-season, making sure that he’s bugging the heck out of the Royals and every other AL team with DH/1B issues. I’m telling my agent to send them fruit baskets, DVDs of my 5-for-5 game, strip club gift certificates, whatever it takes to get them interested.
In reality, Hoff still has three option years left, which means three more seasons of being the PCL’s answer to Jimmie Foxx.
If Hoff wants to have any kind of career he needs to get a few hundred MLB at-bats as soon as he possibly can. It’s unlikely to happen with the Cubs for the reasons that so many of you point out. So for his sake, I hope he gets that chance. In the right situation, he could have some very modest success…I mean, he couldn’t be worse than Ross Gload, or Daric Barton, or Seattle’s parade of non-prospects.
"Some people will look at a glass of water and say it's half-empty, while another guy will look at it and say it's half-full. A Cubs fan looks at the same glass and asks, "When's it gonna spill?" - Mike Royko
by LaddieRenfroe on Oct 6, 2008 10:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think part of the problem is that Hoffpauir looks "hitterish."
I mean, the guy looks like a Big Damn Slugger. He really does. The problem is that he may have Adam Dunn’s physique, but he doesn’t have Adam Dunn’s eyes. Nor does he have Soriano’s inhuman gift to make contact on pitches he should never have swung at in the first place.
But he looks like a BDS, and he drives the ball like a BDS, and you get to thinking that there has to be a spot for him… but there doesn’t.
If Hoffpaiur could combine his power numbers with something approaching a decent OBP, he’d be a pretty good hitter. But that doesn’t seem likely; in his season down at Iowa, as remarkable as it was, he only drew 17 walks. That’s 8 more home runs than walks! And that means his bat isn’t very good, just good. And it’s very hard to find room for a merely good hitter who can’t play defense anywhere.
by cwyers on Oct 7, 2008 12:16 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Well, I wouldn't worry about this too much...
….because I don’t think the Cub organization is spending much time thinking about Micah Hoffpauir and the prospective role he can play on the major league ballclub. At best he gets an invite to spring training and competes to fill a Daryl Ward type role on the bench. Like I said his major league future rides completely on his ability to prove adept at pinch hitting and coming off the bench cold to hit. Failing that he should go ahead and put a down payment on a house in Des Moines.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 7, 2008 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I expect The Hoff will be a sweetner
in whatever “big” deal Hendry looks to make this year. Big not meaning blockbuster, just the whatever he can pull off this winter.
But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night
by N Oakley on Oct 7, 2008 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd agree with this.
As I said above, take Hoffpauir, Felix Pie and a random pitching prospect, and you might get some major league bullpen help. That’s about his upside.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 7, 2008 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're selling Pie really short
if we dealt him for a freaking bullpen arm…. man we’d be idiots
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 7, 2008 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could be wrong...
… but I know Lou doesn’t really like Pie. As long as Lou’s the manager, Pie isn’t going to get a full shot, even though he might be a decent platoon option with Reed Johnson.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 7, 2008 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Lou seems to have a blind spot when it comes to Pie. You don’t usually see your top minor-league prospect being jerked around like he has. I think Lou would prefer if Pie were someone else’s problem.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 7, 2008 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not saying you're wrong
i just don’t like the idea of endorsing lunacy
which trading Pie amongst a package (mind you) for a freaking bullpen arm would be
good god that made me nauseous just thinking about it. You have two distinct weaknesses that don’t have mega millionaires committed to them SS and CF and you’re going to trade an internal cheap option you potentially have in CF for a guy that could contribute say 60 innings??? ARGH
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 7, 2008 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting question in my mind is this...
Does Lou not like Pie and thinks he will never make it with his skill set or does Lou not like his chances to win with Pie right now and he is feeling the pressure to win and break the drought.
At some point, the Cubs have to be able to draft and develop qualitiy position players. In the last 8 years, they have developed one position player (Soto) into a quality everyday position player. One…and that one only has 1 year of ML service time so it is still entirely possible he could be a bust. Furthermore, he plays a position where offense is a plus and not a requirement. Likewise, He was actually a surprise and was not really on their Road Map, which is even more scary. It is crazy to think that they have not developed an quality outfielder in years. They play three of them in each game in their minor league system…you would think that one of them could stick.
They can’t just keep throwing around money and expect that plan to work. At some point, you get stuck with crazy contracts and older players…maybe we are starting to see the beginning of that now. Even the yankees and red sox realize that you need to build from within with some players so that you can target the bigger pieces via free agency or use this minor league players to trade for proven MLB players.
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Oct 7, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's get away from...
…whether Lou likes Pie or not and just review how he has looked at the ML level and also his numbers. Neither one is good by any stretch and its not like your not playing someone who has a nice stroke or has good numbers (so far).
I really think people have been brainwashed by the Cubs organization that somehow this guy has to be good. I haven’t seen any sign yet he can or will hit major league pitching. It doesn’t mean he can’t get better, but he hasn’t exactly helped himself out at this level.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think that he has been given a fair shot?
My point was did Lou abort the mission before a fair assessment could be made and thus we won’t really know who or what Felix Pie is. Then, because Lou does not have the time to try to develop his swing at the MLB level because of the pressure to win, we end up trading away a quality everyday MLB player making the league minimum.
Or
Is the sample size large enough and is Lou enough of a talent evaluator to determine that he won’t make it. If so, trade him like a used car salesman sells a pinto.
Regardless, Dome did Pie no favors this year. I just can’t see management going into next season with two question marks in the outfield. I think if Dome was successful the whole year than the Cubs maybe more apt to try Pie again.
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Oct 7, 2008 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That has been my point all along. Eventually, the farm system has to
bear some fruit. Not just pieces to trade for average players, but real major league talent that produces for your own team. The top teams have that. We don’t.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 7, 2008 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Felix Pie is done in the Cub organization
The odds are strong that he is peddled this winter. The organization likely wants to convince Jim Edmonds to come back for another year and tag him up Reed Johnson. Plus we could see Kosuke Fukudome enter the competition for the CF job given that the Cubs will very likely be searching for a left-handed run producer and that commodity might logically fit in their RF pitcture.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 7, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
until we are informed the Cubs are going to significantly increase payroll
i don’t see how you can make those assertions.
our payroll INCREASES next year despite losing players (Dempster, Wood, etc)
but then again this is from the same mantra and decree that said Pie wouldn’t get a look in september and pie wouldn’t make the postseason roster, etc…
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 7, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, that's why they left him off the playoff roster, and never let him have an AB in the playoffs...
…just like you told us!
I mean seriously, man. At some point you’d think either shame or humility would step in, and you would finally admit that you really do not know for certain how the Cubs feel about Pie.
by cwyers on Oct 7, 2008 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fine, let's see the situation play out this winter and spring in CF....
There are some of you who staunchly stand by Felix Pie and I shouldn’t rain on your parade. We hold 180 degree opposite views on Pie and we shall have to leave it at that. Our views of what the Cub organization really thinks of Pie are also diametrically opposed.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 7, 2008 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
PIE 1000 OPS IN THE PLAYOFFS
he did only hit once, right? well, walk once, you know what i mean.
by Canseco's Roid Party on Oct 7, 2008 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hoffpauir has a very good...
…stroke, plain a simple. It is compact and powerful. Now, that doesn’t mean there are subtle parts of his hitting ability that may not get exposed with a high number of ML AB’s, but I sure as hell would like to see what he could do if given the chance.
Soriano’s swing is shit compared to Hoffpauir. Soriano drops the head of the bat like no one I have every seen before. If you can, look at some still pictures of Soriano as he starts his swing. The bat is almost dragging the ground, even to hit a pitch that is belt high. This is why he hits so many homers and also why he launches pitches at his ankles like no one else. The problem is, he has to start his swing so early, he can’t catch up to any fastballs at the top of the zone and he gets fooled on breaking balls because he commits so early.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The scary thing about Soriano....
….is what happens when the impact of age enters the equation. His entire game is predicated on getting that telephone pole sized bat through the zone while standing on top of the plate in order to jerk the ball to left. He loses a sliver of bat speed and it could get very ugly very quickly.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 7, 2008 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
200% correct...
…when his reflexes start to diminish (and they probably already have), it will not look pretty, because he has nothing to fall back on.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ummm...
he struck out 24 times in 73 AB’s, he has some serious HOLES in his swing or he’s just choosing to bat with his eyes closed sometimes because striking out in 33% of your AB’s (and not taking BB’s) is not the sign of a particularly adept hitter
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 7, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand that...
…and he has also done some damage at this level as well.
All I’m saying is this; I really like the guys swing, and I would be curious to see what he could do if given an extended amount of AB’s, thats all.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its funny
you like his swing, but hate Pies despite Hoff striking out more
and simply because he had success in 73 AB’s, 73 measly AB’s
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 7, 2008 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you know...
…its not all about the strikeouts, but it is also about the contact he makes on the pitches he hits.
Again, please listen, I am not saying Hoffpauir is going to be a star. I am only saying I would like to see what he could do with more AB’s. Here are my reasons I feel this way:
He has a short compact stroke
The ball jumps off his bat
Now, he does K quite a bit, but the two items I listed above are very good qualities to have as a hitter (by the way Pie does not have them). Can he make adjustments to cut down on k’s? I have no freaking idea, but he has qualities that are the basic staring points of good hitters.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'd love to see some evidence
that suggests Hoffpauir’s swing is shorter than Pie’s beyond the blind eye test. Where’s the guy who does video analysis!!!!
I understand what you’re saying (to some extent), i just don’t agree that the ball doesn’t jump off Pie’s bat, etc when he basically had similar power numbers to Hoffpauir when you look at their minor league careers. I’ll take the thousands of AB’s at the minor league level as more of an indicator than less than 400 AB’s COMBINED between the two hitters at the major league level
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 7, 2008 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You won't get any scientific...
…evidence from me. I am basing my opinion on how these guys look at the plate. Nothing less and nothing more.
Lastly, I know Hoffpauir has been around a long time. Sometimes, guys find something later in their career that causes them to blossom. I don’t care what he did in the minor leagues 4 years ago or even this year, I care about how he looks at the plate, period.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hoff = LH Jason Dubois
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 7, 2008 12:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Every player is unique...
…unto themselves. If you could predict what every guy is going to become based on others you pick out, this game would be simple and that is just not the way it is.
Hoffpauir may prove he is not a major league hitter or he may show he is a late bloomer that can be very productive, and no one knows for sure what the answer is.
Both Pie and Hoff has real good numbers at AAA, but that is not all I look at. I’m also looking at how they look at the plate and the fact that Hoff has had some success hitting major league pitching.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
just for fun
Hoffpauir’s career minor league OPS: .832
Pie’s career minor league OPS: .823
one of these players did this from ages 22-28, the other from 17-23
you’re telling me you’d bet on the guy who did it from ages 22-28?
this isn’t even taking into account defensive value
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 7, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys aren't hearing me...
…I said I realize Hoffpauir has no place as a starter on this club. In fact, Pie has a much better chance of being a starter with the Cubs in 09 (at least as a platoon player). If I had to pick one guy to be on a playoff roster, it would be Pie and I stated that before the playoffs started.
With Hoffpauir, I am curious on how he could develop as a pure “hitter” if given the chance. Clearly, his role would be best suited as a DH in the AL.
I like the dudes swing and I like the way he drives the ball with authority and its really as simple as that.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well...
its as simple as this for me:
“I think you’re nuts to completely ignore his minor league track record and base an evaluation off of 73 AB’s”
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 7, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not basing it on 73 AB's...
…please read what I posted. I am basing it on how he attacks the ball with his swing and how he drives the ball with authority. Its certainly not bad that he has had some success doing this at the ML level, but that is not the crux of what I am saying.
Let me put it this way. If the NL approved the DH tomorrow and Cubs brass were told you had to use one of two players in that role (Pie or Hoffpauir), they would pick Hoffpauir everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you've seen him extensively at the minor league level?
you said you’re basing this on “how he attacks the ball with his swing”
wouldn’t the majority of the evidence you’ve SEEN of him be from the ML level, in which he’s had JUST 73 ABs!
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 7, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many times...
…do you think you need to watch a guy hit to get a reading on his swing? I don’t know how you would answer that, but it shouldn’t take more than 30 AB’s to see plate coverage, bat speed, length of stroke and how the ball jumps off the bat.
I like the dudes swing, and many in the organization do as well. The problem is, he can’t field a lick and they won’t find out what he could do unless he is traded.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and there's the fact that he's less disciplined than a regiment of alley cats.
He swings the bat well, yes, but he swings the bat at pretty much everything indiscriminantly. He’s not some TTO freak like Cust or Branyan.
by cwyers on Oct 7, 2008 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...
…on the other hand, he has also shown that he can hit the shit out of the ball, which last time I checked, is quite difficult to teach.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not wholly convinced you can teach plate discipline, either.
I think that in a lot of ways pitch recognition ability (the ability to discern good pitches from bad pitches) is a physical tool, just like hitting for contact or hitting for power. What you’re teaching is not so much the talent as how to maximize that talent.
By the time a hitter is 27-28, he basically is who he is. He’s got one real gift (the ability to drive the ball well when he makes contact) that doesn’t really cover for his mass of liabilities (defense, plate discipline, etc.) I think he has value as a bench hitter/backup 1B, but that’s about it.
Which is really why I’m not inclined to trade him – I don’t think he’s worth much in trade, and he’s organizational depth for us.
by cwyers on Oct 7, 2008 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your right...
…you can’t teach plate discipline (for the most part). But my point is this, it takes a hell of a lot more skill to drive a pitch than it does to take one (and no, this isn’t Dusty Baker). And, if you can drive the ball like Micah has shown he can, it peaks your interest (at least mine) as to what he could do if given 450+ AB’s in the bigs.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
That’s something that is taught in rookie ball and before. Major leaguers rarely learn plate discipline at the top level. They can improve slightly, but quantum leaps don’t happen at the major league level.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 7, 2008 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd even say...
…a selective hitter is determined before you even get to prof ball.
Once a hacker, always a hacker. It’s just that when some guys hack, they jack.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 7, 2008 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't happen often
a guy like Jose Reyes is a pretty good example of plate discipline being learned
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 7, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do we say a guy learned power?
Does a guy forget speed?
Plate discipline, like any other hitting tool, develops with age. Unlike power or speed, there is no peak age for discipline – it continues to develop each and every season.
But it generally improves in small steps, a little at a time. A hack generally remains a hack.
by cwyers on Oct 7, 2008 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't disgree
i just think a guy like Reyes whose BB Rates per AB went like this:
4.7%
2.2%
3.9%
8.2%
11.3%
9.6%
showed an ability to “learn” or “develop” whatever you want to call it. Because the skill wasn’t there, he was a hacker and then he learned to become a pretty patient hitter
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 7, 2008 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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