Harden doesn't need surgery, option excercised
by Wreckard on Oct 8, 2008 10:51 AM CDT
Email
PrintThought this was an interesting note in the Sun Times today:
The team was not ruling out surgery for right-hander Rich Harden as they awaited results of exams by their medical staff before tonight's midnight deadline for exercising his $7 million club option for 2009.
Harden's health has been an issue since the Cubs acquired him in July, and his velocity waned significantly at the end of the season.
Also interesting is that hte deadline extension is midnight tonight.
Update: As stated in the thread, the option has now been excercised and surgery is off the table.
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I was a bit surprised
that nobody had picked up on this. It was on the wires yesterday around 4 p.m.
Well, I think this solves our rhetorical questions on the starting rotation for next year. Harden will not pitch again for the Cubs.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
So what do you do?
You’d be almost crazy not to keep him. If he goes to arbitration, he’s almost guaranteed to get more than his $7 million option. Our only other option is to release him, which would be nuts.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Oct 8, 2008 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
You could also see
Mark Mulder as another example…
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Oct 8, 2008 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
The difference between Harden and Mulder and Prior
…is that Harden has consistently returned from injury and been able to pitch at his previous level.
Mulder and Prior have either been unable to return from injury, or have and pitched at a much lower level than before.
Well Mulder
did not have a problem until he went under the knife. Harden has yet to go under the knife for any of his injuries so we don’t know how he will respond.
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Oct 8, 2008 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions
If you have no intention of signing him long term
and the risk of him not being able to perform for you in 09 is so high than you use that 7 million to improve the club in another way. Of course, if you have 7 mil laying around and it does inhibit your chances to improve the club the way that you want to, then I guess it is probably worth the gamble.
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Oct 8, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
*not* inhibit
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Oct 8, 2008 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Hed be back by May
if they do this procedure is what I read, but hes Cub property no matter what in 09, just depends on the option or arbitration.
He so talented that even if he has to be skipped once a month, hes worth it….on talent alone he’s in the upper elite.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Well...They could choose to not pick
up the option and not offer him arbitration…i.e. cut him. If they did that, they would not get any type of draft pick if he was picked up by another team.
Unless it is a minor shoulder surgery (if there is such a thing), cut him and be done. There are too many moving parts in a shoulder to think that any surgey to that area will allow him to be successful at the level that we expect the year following. They won’t do it because of what they gave up for him but they should.
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Oct 8, 2008 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
"Just a clean up"
Is what I heard the procedure may be, but Id take him for one full year, see how it goes…..he doesnt really need to throw 96 mph to be successful
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
I will believe it when I see it...
I trust a club’s report about a player’s injury about as much as I trust Carnies
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Oct 8, 2008 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions
May need surgery?
“Weren’t ruling out surgery” are they?
When the results & diagnosis aren’t even completed I suppose you can’t rule anything out, including the possibility of an off-season physical therapy program. But then that doesn’t make headlines I guess.
I don't see how they couldn't exercise the option
I think the real story is what his time table will be if he needs surgery.
2010 Yankees
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Oct 8, 2008 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
If surgery is needed the estimate is return in May or June
Given his exceptional talent and the fact that the Cubs invested a lot to get him I think it is a no-brainer you pick up the $7 million option.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
This sounds too Mark Priorish to me
I’d still pick up his option though.
Ryan Dempster's negotiating power just went up
But again, I am leery of handing over a 4 year, $50 million or so contract for Dempster. I could see Dempster turning into Jeff Suppan. We already are saddled with enough ugly back-loaded contracts and no-trade clauses to choke a horse.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
Demp is not Suppan.
Suppan tops out at 90, and doesn’t have a very good out pitch.
Dempster on the other hand, throws from 90-94 with a great splitter.
And if Rich is going to be out til May, then we better be in the market for pitching, or else this could be bad. Z’s got some questions, Demp may bolt, and this Harden stuff. Ugh.. Never easy.
C.C. would ease the pain though :)
Devin Hester, you are ridiculous! -Jeff Joniak
by ARAM FOR MVP on Oct 8, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
There is no chance I give Dempster a 4 year contract in the $$$$ neighborhood he will command
That said I think there is 99% certainty he re-signs with the Cubs. Unfortunately I firmly believe his contract will be one this team ends up deeply regretting.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
Well, that's all I heard when the Cubs signed Ted Lilly
and he’s won 32 games over the last 2 years for the Cubs.
Free agent pitching goes for about a million dollars a win so Ted’s contract is turning out to be a bargain.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Oct 8, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I doubt many other managers would have given him the opportunity
to be a starter, especially given his performance in the ’pen and his injury woes. If he signed with another team for 6-7 mil more, that would just make me a sad panda.
I wonder if we should use John Smoltz as a guide to Dempster's future health.
Not that Dempster has the talent that John Smoltz has but their careers have a bit of a parallel.
Smoltz was a starter and then had tommy john surgery and then became a close for a few years. He then went back to being a starter for a few years and recently had shoulder surgery.
Will Dempster also have injury problems within a couple of years? The injury risk will definitely be taken into account in the Cubs decision making process. The Cubs have all of Dempster’s medical records so they will be able to make an informed decision. No matter what they decide, there are no guarantees.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Oct 8, 2008 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Anybody who pitches
is an elbow or shoulder injury away from being done. Pitching is not natural…
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Oct 8, 2008 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think that Demp is as reliant on his slider as Smoltz is.
Smoltz injured his shoulder compensating for the strain that the slider put on his elbow.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
I don't think so...
Dempster has been healthy the past few years, and he works his ass off in the off-season to get better. If he stays in the shape he’s been, I think he’ll continue to be consistent.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Oct 8, 2008 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
no you would give it to Mr. Fragile, Harden
For the record I don’t even regret Marquis’s contract. Price of healthy, reliable starting pitching is at a PREMIUM. If you lose Dempster and you can not rely on Harden you have Marshall and then what ?. Go out and spend 140 million on CC 50 Million on Lowe ?. I love how folks are like don’t spend money on keeping Dempster or Wood or trade Lee and get Tex etc. It all one big silly game of Fantasy baseball and we really suck at it. Guess what the Dodgers have several on the WORST contracts in the MLB
( Schmidt, Jones, Pierre ) and they are going strong because they worked around them and also had a manager who gave younger players more of chance ( though he may have been forced a little). Let’s try that.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 8, 2008 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
they also had
an incredibly stocked farm system
something we don’t
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 8, 2008 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions
You make good points...
But I will just add this. To me Ryan Dempster was extreme beneficiary of luck in 2008. I’m not saying he can’t remain a good starting pitcher, I’m just saying I don’t think he will come anywhere close to replicating his 2008 performance ever again in his career. Dempster gave up a ton of “loud outs” and chronically walks a lot of guys (as opposed to grooming it down the plate and watching hitters tee off….Dempster is smart as a fox in that regard).
A big fat contract to Dempster is going to turn out to be a mistake.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
Can you give examples, Sue, instead of libeling his name?
I can think one from MDBNIU straight off of my head: Harden.
He might be a pain in the ass from time to time, but when he knows a good amount of baseball.
Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! Pick me! I know this one!
I was on a kick for a while of pointing them out for fun. He contradicts himself so much and takes so many silly indefensible stances that he makes John Kruk look like an expert.
So yeah, like a lot of us around here, he wanted Harden. But don’t fall prey to thinking being right once makes you an expert – in this case that couldn’t be any further from the truth.
And besides, like I’ve asked before, just how right was he about Harden?
If you really
want to know do a search of his name. I am stating the truth if you diagree that’s your problem.
Are you talking about Jeff Suppan, the serviceable ML pitcher,
or Jeff Suppan, the poor guy who induces ground balls to a sieve-like defense?
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
I for one
would like to see him back if there is a fair chance he can be healthy. With all the talk of C.C Sabathia and how well he did with the Brewers, I never saw anyone mention that Harden pitched just as well as Sabathia, at least for his first 10 starts. After he started passing turns and had a couple less than great starts, Sabathia was clearly superior, but go look at Harden’s stats with the Cubs. Other than Sabathia’s more impressive W-L record, Harden was no slouch by any stretch of the imagination. The guy can pitch, he just needs to be healthy, which IS a question mark.
I would be very surprised if Sabathia ended up a Cub. I see NY or LA in his future.
I agree that signing CC would be a mistake.
With the contract he will command, there is virtually no chance he will outperform the contract and almost certainly undeperform it.
I can only conclude that the contract CC will command will only lead to disappointment for the team and the fans of that team who signs him.
The key to free agent signings it to sign players to contracts where there is at least a chance they can outperform the contract. Not that they will, but at least have a chance.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Oct 8, 2008 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree...
He struggled a bit when he was with Cleveland this year. I know the AL has superior hitters blah blah, but it’s only a matter of time before NL hitters figure this guy out. Also, who knows how he’ll bounce back after all that overuse the Brewers subjected him to down the stretch. I understand he wanted to pitch that much, but you have to wonder what kind of beating his shoulder/elbow took.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Oct 8, 2008 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly,
and as we saw with Mark Prior, the overuse showed up the NEXT season.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Oct 8, 2008 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Prior had...
…overuse when he was done warming up in the pen.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
CC is the same problem Cubs have
Our team is going to be good enough to get us to October but Sabathia is not a good playoff pitcher. Why spend the money to dig another grave?
not a good playoff pitcher?
we’re basing this on what 4-5 starts? 2 of which came on 3 days rest?
really?
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 8, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes really
I am basing it off of that and he hasn’t proven to me that he’s someone I’d guarantee a win with in the postseason.
I might agree...
if I didn’t just watch C.C. carry the Brewers to the playoffs on 3 day starts with every game being pressure packed. I’ll chalk it to small sample size, because it sure doesn’t seem like he backs down or crumbles under pressure.
Free Ronny Cedeno
so what would prove it to you
has Chad Billingsley now proven the test?
we’re talking about less then a handful of bad starts here…
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 8, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Obviously
But I’d rather take a handful of starts from Josh Beckett than Sabathia.
Sorry you don’t like my opinion if you want Cubs to sign Sabathia but that’s what I think of him. Our team doesn’t need him to get us to October so there isn’t the necessity for the investment if he can’t pitch well in October.
i didn't realize
we had wrapped up a post season birth for ’09!!
LET THE CELEBRATION BEGIN!!!!!!!!
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 8, 2008 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions
You're just being ridiculous
No need to attack on every word but I have no problem saying with the Cubs team right now I don’t think they will have any other problem getting to October.
Please don’t respond anymore to my posts tonight Dartmouth…I’m going to celebrate Yom Kippur and don’t really have time for this bantering (I’m saving you time from having to post).
Cubs picked up his option...
…if he needs a shoulder scope, lets hope its only a clean up.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Official Cubs press release announcing the pickup of Harden’s option
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
How did you infer that from the Article....
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Oct 8, 2008 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I hope...
…I really really hope, this does not turn out to be another Mark Prior situation. I guess there is a possibility Hendry will use him as trade bait (if it helps bring something they need), but I would imagine they are banking on him being able to help in 09.
The guy has got electric stuff just like Prior did, but when pitchers have ongoing issues like him, they tend to keep creeping up.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I hope not either, but really, who cares?
His talent level is amazing, he’s only on contract for $7M next year, and we didn’t give up much to get him. We have Marshall, HIll, Smardizja who can go as long men, he’s not screwing up the rotation.
But if he is a bust...maybe that 7 mil
could have been used to get a better player for longer…i.e. Furcal.
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Oct 8, 2008 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Furcal's Back
Let me introduce you the two of you to each other.
Maybe so....
Maybe not. Just like you think that Harden might be healthy next year…I think that Furcal can be healthy next year. Either one is Risk…just have to decide of the two which is less Risky.
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Oct 8, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Let me put it this way...
…as long as he doesn’t keep them from doing anything else, I am fine with it.
This guys history just seems to be almost a mirror image to Prior.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I disagree
…somewhat. They have some injuries in common, but you can’t help but look at Prior and see a lot of hard luck there – the collision and the line drive were just flukes, and seemed to be the dominos that sent the whole thing collapsing.
Harden: elbow ligament sprain, oblique strain, rotator cuff strain, and now some sort of shoulder strain
Prior: shoulder injury due to collision, achilles tendinitis, elbow strain, elbow injury due to line drive, strained shoulder (in BP), shoulder surgery, shoulder surgery
Just keep him away from hot tubs..
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 8, 2008 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
I think we all saw this coming
As long as we have Marshall as spot-starter/longman, we should pick up Harden’s option. The surgery sounds like it will be nothing.
*Synth intro to "Jump"*
Im curious to see what people think will happen to Rich Hill
I am holding out hope, he showed so much promise in 07 leading the team in Ks and a sub 4 ERA in his first full season as a starter, I think they had too short of a leash on him this year….which may have contributed to his mental blocks.
I dont know, I really liked the way he pitched, I think it would be a mistake to overlook him.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
I have no idea
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Almost forgot about him
Seems like we have a good starting rotation. Perhaps he can be converted to a 7th inning effective reliever since Howry will be gone? That or show he can pitch again and put him in a package for a trade?
Maybe he can be a LOOGY
or a long man to pitch mop up duties when we are down 7-1 in the 4th.
Doubt it...
…if you bring him in for those situations, he probably wouldn’t be able to find the strikezone until the game was lost.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
This is as good a time as any...
…to mention that Hill and Pie are both out of options, and must either remain on the 25-man roster or clear waivers.
Technically
Can Hill stay in the minors since he was never brought up? I don’t know how this process works.
An option year is used every time a player is on the 40-man roster...
…but not the 25-man roster (or on the disabled list). When 25-man rosters go into effect at the end of spring training, if Hill (or Pie) are not on the roster, they must clear waivers before they can be optioned to a minor league affiliate. If they do not clear waivers they become property of the claiming club – and by if I of course mean when.
Somebody will definitely take a flyer on Rich Hill if they put him on waivers...
So it boils down to this. Do Jim Hendry and the Cub front office think Rich Hill is salvageable and can he come up with something more than a curveball and a pedestrian fastball to get major league hitters out? This is where you rely on the candid assessment of people like Larry Rothschild and others.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
once again....
he was able to get ML hitters out JUST FINE with a curveball and a fastball
coming up with a 3rd pitch is NOT the problem
LOCATING THE FIRST TWO IS THE PROBLEM
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 8, 2008 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Think the Indians are happy they kept Cliff Lee
after he had a very disapointing 2007 season?
Lee spent most of 2007 in the minors and is the front runner to win the 2008 AL Cy Young award.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Oct 8, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Hill is being sent to winter ball...
…which should help clarify Hill’s standing in the organization.
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