Pujols Wins MVP
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Nov 17, 2008 2:41 PM CST
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PrintAs expected, Albert Pujols won the NL MVP. Did he deserve it? The cardinals finished in 4th place in the NL Central this year, but were competitive most of the year. Traditionally, the MVP award has gone to a player on a team that is near or at the top of their division unless his stats are clearly above his rivals. Did Pujols make the grade? Did he have an Andre Dawson-type year and blow away the competition? You decide.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Pujols
I understand those who have a problem with the MVP going to a player on a team that was not competitive. That has seemingly led to people who believe that the MVP needs to be on a playoff team and I take issue with that. Pujols kept a very mediocre Cards team in contention most of the season. Without Pujols the Cards don’t come close to the success that this team had for a good portion of the season.
Swap Pujols with the likes of Ryan Howard. The Phillies likely have a better record, but the Cards are an afterthought. At this point in time MLB does not have a legitimate award like the Cy Young for hitters, where you go with the best performer irregardless of where the team finished. How competitive the team was can play a factor but, IMO, Pujols was so clearly better an offensive performer than any of his competition. This was the right selection.
I think that Pujols had a very very good year, but he wasn't even the MVP of the Cards...
I think Ludwick & Loshe were probably more of the reason that the Cards were competitive most of the year for the division title. I think maybe the MVP should have gone to Howard.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Nov 17, 2008 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
How do you figure...
… that Ludwick was more of an MVP. In every statistical category (tied in HRs, Pujols w/ fewer ABs) Pujols had a better season. Pujols’ OBP was nearly 100 points higher. So please tell me how Ludwick is the MVP for the Cardinals.
I think that Ludwick finally putting it together, and playing the whole season gives him an edge
… on being more of the reason that the Cards were competitive in the division. If Ludwick doesn’t have the season that he had, everyone pitches around Pujols. Loshe had an out of your head season for the Cards, and pitching is important. Never did I say that Pujols didn’t deserve the MVP. I do think that Howard deserved the MVP more so than Pujols. What I think doesn’t matter to the baseball writers of American though.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Nov 17, 2008 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
Pujols EQA was almost 100 points higher than Howard's
Howard did one thing well this year – he hit a lot of home runs and a lot of RBIs.
Pujols was close in those categories (especially when you account for him having 100 fewer ABs) and was Howard’s better in every other aspect of the game – defensively as well. And Pujols wasn’t better by a small margin either – Pujols WARP3 was 13.5 vs Howard’s 5.5.
oh...
and lead his team to a world series win.
Dear Santa:: All I want for X-mas this year is an official 2009 Jake Peavy Cubs Jersey. Oh and a Beimel one too. I've been a real good guy for the most part!!!
Not sure whether I'd use the word "led."
I think Cole Hamels led that team to the championship. Maybe Chase Utley.
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Last words of the leaky pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
Ludwick
Your criteria, “finally putting it together” may make him worthy of some type of “break-out player” award. Simply because he was finally able to realize his talents, however, does not make him more worthy of a player whose offensive statistics are FAR FAR better . As for the argument about Pujols not getting walked because of Ludwick, that is red herring. The stats were what the stats were and you cannot go back and readjust reality by changing the factors involved. To take your argument the other way, had Ludwick played the whole year without Pujols in the line-up, his statistics very well could have been significantly less than they were. But that doesn’t matter.
And yes, you did say that Pujols did not deserve the MVP. Look at your argument. When you say that others were the MVP of the Cardinals than you are saying that they are more deserving of the league MVP award. As such, you clearly believe that Pujols did not deserve the MVP award, but this is no time to split hairs.
I’d love to know where all the Phillie fans who wanted Howard dealt or moved down in the line-up during the first half of the season are now on the MVP award. Howard was total crap for most of this season and while he is a prodigious HR hitter, a player who slumps for months at a time is not an MVP.
If it's no time to split hairs, then why do you continue to split hairs?
My argument was that a case could be made for both Loshe & Ludwick’s contributions contributing more to the Cards surprisingly staying in the division race than Pujols; (and therefore a case could be made for them being the MVP of the Cards). Now, being the MVP of a team is not the same as MVP of the league. You may think that I don’t think that Pujols deserved the MVP, but you are wrong. You may think that having a player such as Ludwick, and/or Ankiel in the line-up doesn’t mean much, but it does. If the only threat is Pujols, how many managers are going to pitch to him? Not many, they will pitch around him. Whereas, with Ludwick’s bat in the line-up, it becomes harder to limit the offense because you have to pitch to both Pujols & Ludwick. It is tiring defending myself to simpletons.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Nov 17, 2008 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
But you're not making that case
“Ludwick and Lohse were better than expected” isn’t a really compelling reason to annoint either one of them the team’s MVP award over someone who had an OPS+ of 190.
Now, being the MVP of a team is not the same as MVP of the league.
You may think that I don’t think that Pujols deserved the MVP, but you are wrong.
I guess I see where you’re coming from here – I mean, where would we get the idea you didn’t think Pujols wasn’t deserving of the league MVP let alone his team MVP? It’s not like you said that.
I think that Pujols had a very very good year, but he wasn’t even the MVP of the Cards…
Oh. Never mind.
Oh. Never mind is right. I stated my opinion, and obviously I am in the minority...
There is a difference between stating an opinion, and stating fact. If you don’t agree with me fine, but don’t go mucking up my opinion by ascribing more to my statement than is actually there.
Contrary to your belief, there is a difference between being a MVP of an individual team, and being MVP of a league. Simply put, logic dictates that because the MVP is for two different categories, (team v. league), does not make them mutually exclusive, nor inclusive. At times, a player will have a year on a team that allows/helps another player put up the numbers that will win a MVP for a league. If the Cards had not challenged for the division much of the season, and finished last, the votes for Pujols could have been less than what he actually received. Ludwick was a consistent bat that allowed the Cards offense to not be one-dimensional, and contributed to their run & win total. Without Ludwick’s bat, perhaps Pujols would have been pitched around more, and the Cards maybe would not have stayed in the race for the division as long as they did.
So, to close… I don’t expect everyone to agree with me. I am stating opinion, which is what the poster of this thread asked for. If you don’t agree, fine- but I draw the line at having words put in my mouth, thank you.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Nov 17, 2008 5:14 PM CST up reply actions
Hey, that's fair but they are your words
You can’t see even a little bit how your post titled “I think that Pujols had a very very good year, but he wasn’t even the MVP of the Cards…” implied that he wasn’t the league MVP in part because he wasn’t even his own team’s MVP?
I guess I just don’t see this distinction you’re trying to make – without Ludwick, maybe Pujols gets walked more. But without Pujols, they don’t contend – period. I don’t see how someone can be the most valuable player in the league but not his own team.
Wrong
Wasn’t even the MVP of the Cards? Are you kidding me? On what basis? Look at the stats, please.
In the NL, Pujols was 1st in SLG, OPS, OPS+, Total bases, and a whole slew of other stats. He was 2nd in OBP, and guess what, the guy ahead of him is not a Cardinal.
Oh, and Pujols’ defense is pretty darn good.
Pujols absolutely deserved the MVP.
by John Q Freejazz on Nov 17, 2008 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
I haven't read something this stupid for weeks. Thanks for the laugh.
Kyle Loshe over Albert Pujols for MVP.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
No sandwich for you Danny boy... (thanks for calling me stupid).
What I said was that I think that Loshe played more of a role in STL being in the division race than Pujols. I never said that Loshe was, or deserved the MVP of the NL over Pujols. In my estimation both Ludwick & Loshe could also make a case of MVP of the Cards, not the NL.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Nov 17, 2008 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry Jimmy.
I didn’t mean to infer that you were stupid, I didn’t mean that at all. I did not mean to offend you; you & I get along quite well on this site and I didn’t mean to say something that would damage that friendship.
Dan
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
I probably over reacted... We're cool Danny.
We’re cool Danny. I have been defending myself to Worf, Wreckard, Blue Mike & the others who seem refuse to think outside of the box…
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Nov 17, 2008 7:52 PM CST up reply actions
Okay good, no worries man.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
I think a little male bonding is good
even if it is latent homsexuality rechanneling. Annie Savoy
Tommie Agee was out.
"This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that was once good, and it could be good again." TM
by Weeghman Park on Nov 18, 2008 12:28 AM CST up reply actions
You make a bold argument, Jimmy.
But I just can’t get past Pujols’ numbers. 1.115 OPS, 190 OPS+…that’s just sick stuff. And it’s not like he’s a youngster such as Ryan Braun, who many pitchers think they can beat. He’s a guy with a rep – and most teams probably have a book on him about as long as War and Peace.
I would, however, give Ludwick a lot of credit for forcing pitchers to throw to Albert. If Ludwick had turned up a dud this year, we probably would’ve seen Pujols truly get the Barry Bonds treatment and not get anything to hit. Albert is absolutely deserving of this award because he makes any team he’s on much, much more competitive.
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Last words of the leaky pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
While I think this was the right selection
He himself blasted the process a couple of years ago when Ryan Howard won the MVP on a non-playoff team.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Nov 17, 2008 3:06 PM CST up reply actions
Congatulations to Albert Pujols
Yes, he deserved the award this year. He is one of the greatest players I have ever seen play major league baseball in following the game the past 33 years. Just wish he wore a Cub uniform.
BCB, home of the insidious campaign of the clueless to "Dustyfy" an outstanding manager in Lou Piniella.
BS.
As stated above, Pujols wasn’t even the MVP of the cards. He had a regularly great season but the people who “kept” them competitive were guys like Ludwick who weren’t expected to produce and because of their performance all season, the Cards were in the race most of the way. IMO, this award needs to be given with consideration for context. If so, Ludwick gets my vote on the Cards but there are plenty of valuable players to be considered.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Nov 17, 2008 3:16 PM CST up reply actions
How can you make a case for him not being the MVP of his own team?
Pujols OBP was nearly 100 points higher than Ludwick’s and his slugging 60 points higher. Pujols EQA’d .367 for crying out loud – that’s nuts.
He was hands down the MVP of the league, in my opinion, let alone his own team.
I disagree with you...
answer me this. With JUST Pujols on the Cards, removing Ludwick and other over achievers (like Lohse, Ankiel in the beginning at least) do the Cards compete? No freaking way. I never said Pujols isn’t one of the best players in the league, I am saying that using context as a factor for judging, Ludwick, Ankiel, Lohse, etc need consideration. Perhaps he is the MVP of the Cards but of the league, I disagree. There were players whos contributions deserved more credit than his.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Nov 17, 2008 6:15 PM CST up reply actions
I'm a little late but
answer me this, With JUST ludwick, removing Pujols, where are the Cards?
by cubsfaninatl on Nov 17, 2008 6:23 PM CST up reply actions
Why do they deserve more credit? I just don't understand this line of thinking.
Without tires, will my car drive? Not really, but that doesn’t mean they’re the most valuable part. Pujols is completely irreplaceable – none of those other guys qualify as such.
And if Pujols wasn’t the league MVP, who was? He was dominant on an almost Bondsian scale.
Idiotic
Albert Pujols was head and shoulders the best candidate to win the 2008 National League MVP.
BCB, home of the insidious campaign of the clueless to "Dustyfy" an outstanding manager in Lou Piniella.
Ironic you calling someone idiotic Mike...
anyway, you are dead wring in my opinion. He IS a great ballplayer, perhaps the best overall in the league but there were other players in the NL who had outstanding performances and missed out. I would argue, though I know he can’t get the MVP, that Brad Lidge’s performance and value to his team was greater than Pujols. It is a moot point cause he is a pitcher but the response is more to your unconditional arse smooching for Albert.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Nov 17, 2008 6:18 PM CST up reply actions
Disagree 100%
If anything Albert Pujols should have been the unaminious selection for 2008 NL MVP.
BCB, home of the insidious campaign of the clueless to "Dustyfy" an outstanding manager in Lou Piniella.
I guess we agree to disagree then.
I am not taking anything away from him. I just think there were other performances like Chipper Jones for example that were pretty amazing.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Nov 17, 2008 7:08 PM CST up reply actions
I think Chipper is the only other player that you could make a case for
But Pujols was better in almost every category. However, Chipper does play a tougher defensive position.
Pujols is MVP
Simply put, Pujols is the best player in the game. He would look great in a Cub uniform.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
Why are you spelling it like that
Is that an autistic tick, some lame attempt at a masked insult, or is it an honest spelling mistake?
It was an honest mistake. I didn't realize it until you mentioned it. I'll correct it.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Nov 17, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
Now if only "Crain's" could be spelt correctly in the next Fanpost title
My next sig line quote will also be from Lou Piniella, and the first word will be either "Look", or "Listen", followed by a comma.
heh...
since people are floating names out like Peavy and Johnson, hell why don’t we go after Pujols for the hell of it?
To see your idol player whom you have grown up watching be cast aside by his loyal organization can make even a grown man choke up...We'll miss you #34!
I'll contribute my ENTIRE 401(k)
worth about $4K to go towards his salary.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
It pains me to say it..
but Pujols deserves the MVP award every year. He is far and away the best player in baseball, and will be considered one of the top 3 righthanded hitters to ever play the game once he retires, if not the best one ever. They can’t give it to him every year, howver, so as to keep some measure of suspense attached to the award.
Man, I wish the cubs had him. He makes me sick he’s so good.
hahahahaha This is awesome
As I have stated many times before Pujols himself said this award should go to a player whose team made the playoffs. I just wish I could be at the press conference to shove his words down his throat.
Did he deserve the award? I think so, he is a hell of a player and prolly behind only ARod as best position player in baseball.
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #12 9-2 (5-2). Next up kU at Arrowhead. BIG 12 NORTH CHAMPS!
But Pujols didn't vote for himself
He can still believe it should go to a playoff bound player. If he had a vote and voted for himself then that would be “shoved down his throat” worthy
Formerly NO100
by jerry morales rules on Nov 17, 2008 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
Wrong
Pujols shouldn’t have come out so high and mighty before. Now he’s not saying one peep about, “my team didn’t make the playoffs, this award belongs to someone else.”
I for one, don’t care what your team’s record is. This award should be given to the best player, period. If someone on the Royals or Pirates next year has a 40/40, yet is on a 60 win ballclub, they still deserve the award. Like relatives, teammates are something you can’t pick.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
FYI
Linky contains the quote that you are referring to
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Nov 17, 2008 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
I'm shocked the STL media actually used that quote
Something tells me some columnist somewhere will call him out for it in the coming weeks.
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #12 9-2 (5-2). Next up kU at Arrowhead. BIG 12 NORTH CHAMPS!
He is not exactly beloved
by the STL Media…he is not very nice to them for whatever reason.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Nov 17, 2008 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
He isn't nice because he isn't a nice person
The MVP comment is by no means the only stupid and insulting thing that has come out of his mouth over the years.
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #12 9-2 (5-2). Next up kU at Arrowhead. BIG 12 NORTH CHAMPS!
To all those peope who don't think Pujols deserved it:
Then who did?
"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion
There's nothing to decide.
I’m pretty shocked that the voting was so close. Pujols does everything Howard does, but way better. Let’s see:
Pujols VORP: #1 @ 98.7 (next was 79.4)
Howard VORP: #49 @ 36.6 (behind guys like Brian Giles, Ian Kinsler, and Braun)
Howard is not a good defensive player, whereas Pujols has won awards for his defensive play. Howard fielded at a .988 clip this year, with 19 errors; Pujols was at .996 with 6 errors.
King Albert had arguably (see: 2003) his BEST season offensively, batting .357 with a 190 OPS+. ONE NINETY!! Ryan batted .251 with a 124 OPS+, and greatly benefited from a better offensive team (2nd best in NL).
Like I said, I cannot believe this was a close vote.
Dan
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
Pujols...
… was very critical a couple of years ago when he lost out to Ryan Howard. He said that the award should go to a player that helped his team get to the playoffs.
Perhaps he should decline acceptance of this award?
In Hendry We Trust
Good point
I totally forgot about that. Didn’t the Phillies actually win more games that year than St. Louis, but finished 3rd in their division? I think the Cards were 83-79, and the Phillies had 84 wins. Fact checkers will prove me right or wrong.
Anway, Pujols did deserve it. He’s a man-child.
Demp and Rich: proof that people that live in igloos and say "eh" can contibute!
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Nov 17, 2008 4:50 PM CST up reply actions
Re: Good point
Pujols hit fewer dingers that year than Howard, but Pujols had the higher OPS, so if he had said “The better overall player who helped his team win the division should get it,” he’d have a good point.. I believe the Phillies finished in 2nd with 85 wins, the Cards first with 83.
by John Q Freejazz on Nov 17, 2008 5:12 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks.
Demp and Rich: proof that people that live in igloos and say "eh" can contibute!
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Nov 17, 2008 5:17 PM CST up reply actions
Good discussion here.
The Cardinals did finish fourth, but contended for much of the year. Most of that was due to Pujols. He earned the MVP.
Oh, and he did all of it on an elbow that was about to pop.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Toughest out in baseball...
too bad he gets about 70 AB’s against us a year!
Demp and Rich: proof that people that live in igloos and say "eh" can contibute!
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Nov 17, 2008 5:12 PM CST up reply actions
Sigh...
DeRo got passed over again….
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
FWIW...
… Aramis Ramirez finished 10th, Geovany Soto 13th and Derrek Lee 21st.
Frankly, I thought DeRo had a better year than D-Lee did.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Not that DLee isn't a good player
Just some media members still think he is 2005 Derrek Lee, as was evident listening to other teams broadcasts throughout the season. I think that is why he got the vote.
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #12 9-2 (5-2). Next up kU at Arrowhead. BIG 12 NORTH CHAMPS!
Pujols should have been unanimous
And here is his proper response to the manufactured controversy
"I am rich, young, talented and I am the only choice for MVP. Go screw yourself with a cactus you scumbag media people who will be out of a job and begging to do my laundry for $8 an hour soon.
“Here’s $10,000. I’ll give it to you if you get down on all fours and bark like a dog!”
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
I'm in awe of your lack of baseball smarts, and your attempts to draw attention to your posts by...
ascribing what you believe to others. You are like the guy at the party that sits in the corner all by himself; because as much as others would like to include you, your perspective is warped & your conversation skills are limited to denigrating others in order to boost your own self-esteem, (or lack thereof).
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Nov 17, 2008 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
As stupid as the comment is
Pujols might actually say something like that.
Just kidding.
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #12 9-2 (5-2). Next up kU at Arrowhead. BIG 12 NORTH CHAMPS!
Because DaBard was banned.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Wow, really? I missed this actually.
I guess you could say he got the ultimate technical balk. Gotta admit, though, Worf sounds a lot like him.
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Last words of the leaky pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
Let's just say...
… you are both very perceptive.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
MVP
is such a subjective award. Nobody votes on the true meaning of the award. Most Valuable Player. It seems they always give it to the guy with the best numbers regardless of the shitty team they are on.
If they voted based on the true meaning of the award, everybody knows that Ryan Theriot should have won MVP.
That would be the MSP
Tommie Agee was out.
"This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that was once good, and it could be good again." TM
by Weeghman Park on Nov 17, 2008 8:25 PM CST up reply actions
They always give it to the guy regardless of their shitty team?
You’re going to have to back that claim up sir, the only recent MVP I can think of from a bad team was A-Rod on the Rangers. Otherwise every MVP’s been on a contender.
St. Louis was a contender...right up to the final couple weeks of the season
Albert Pujols was the clear cut choice for MVP. Get over yourself.
BCB, home of the insidious campaign of the clueless to "Dustyfy" an outstanding manager in Lou Piniella.
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