Baseball Players and Age
As we sit in front of the Hot Stove (or read BCB) and talk about which free agents the Cubs should pursue, we often say something like “Don’t go after Joe Blow. He’s 34 years old.” Yet Joe has been consistently productive over the last eight years, still plays good defense, and he bats left-handed. Will he be productive for us, or will his production suddenly drop off a cliff when we sign him?
I’ve been thinking about this dilemma for a while, and I’ve come up with the concept of “baseball age”, an attempt to reconcile the fact that Andruw Jones seems to be washed up at age 31 and Mark DeRosa seems to still be improving at age 33.
Baseball age is made up of several components, which I am listing below. If I were better at math, I would try to quantify this; perhaps someone else already has or would like to try. I am listing these in what I believe is their order of importance:
1. Chronological age. Obviously, this is still the most important component. As the body ages, it does not recover from stress and injury as quickly, so that muscles and joints don’t function quite as well on a daily basis.
2. Conditioning level. This includes cardiovascular conditioning, flexibility training, baseball-related strength training and plyometrics, baseball activity (e.g., throwing), and weight management. Players who are well conditioned and not overweight place less stress on their joints than players who aren’t and can handle a higher workload more efficiently. I also believe that players who have maintained their bodies well from the the time they signed their first pro contract age better than those who start at age 30. Thus, I would expect Jason Marquis to last longer than Ryan Dempster, who had his “come to conditioning Jesus” meeting only last year. Cliff Floyd lamented last year that he hadn’t taken better care of himself in his younger years; he seems washed up at age 35.
3. Milage. I would measure this using innings played for position players, innings pitched for starting pitchers, and appearances for relief pitchers. Guys who come up at age 21 and play 155 games per season often seem old at age 32. Guys like DeRo and Plácido Polanco, who start their careers as bench players, still seem strong at age 33. Career bench players like Alex Cora and Henry Blanco seem to last forever.
4. Turf. Vladimir Guerrero is exhibit A. José Vidro is exhibit B. I would guess that every inning on turf is worth three on grass. If you can quantify this accurately, the MLBPA would like a word with you.
5. Injury History. Both the number and type of injuries count. Broken bones, torn ACLs, and torn ulnar collateral ligaments usually heal without incident. Once a pitcher is completely back from Tommy John surgery, it becomes a non-factor. How many fans even remember that Chipper Jones had surgery for a torn ACL in 1994? Other injuries, like a bulging disc in the back, chronic hamstring pulls, or a torn rotator cuff, seriously degrade a player’s performance and shorten his career.
6. Position. Catchers take more of a beating than other position players. Relief pitchers take more of a beating than starting pitchers. Base stealers take more of a beating than power hitters. Middle infielders get hit more often than third basemen. Outfielders’ legs get more wear and tear than first basemen’s. And Aaron Rowand running into a br...., uh, let’s not go there.
7. Major Tools. Speed is usually the first tool to start fading, so players who rely on their speed (e.g., Juan Pierre, Chone Figgins) age very rapidly; players whose major tool is hitting for average and/or power often do very well in their mid to late 30s (e.g., Chipper Jones, Gary Sheffield, Luis Gonzalez, Manny Ramírez). Players whose main asset is fielding range (e.g., Adam Everett) age faster than players whose main defensive asset is their arm and/or hands (e.g., Chipper Jones, Dwight Evans). Players whose bat allows them to move down the defensive spectrum will be valuable longer than those whose entire value comes from being high on the defensive spectrum.
8. Intelligence. Intelligent players adapt by using their experience to compensate for diminishing physical skills. An experienced shortstop will compensate for losing a step of raw range by using scouting reports more effectively to help him position himself. An intelligent pitcher will develop a new pitch to compensate for losing a few mph on his fastball. Players who don’t adapt (e.g., Marcus Giles) find themselves unwanted at a fairly early age.
9. Mental Toughness. As a player ages, it becomes more difficult to push himself to do the extra conditioning work that is needed to compete in a young man’s game, especially as he sees his children growing up. Jon Lieber seemed to lose the mental toughness needed to keep his weight within reason and his conditioning level high over the last two or three seasons; this manifested itself by his reporting to Spring Training seriously overweight this season and leaving the team in September after he went back on the DL. He appears to be done. John Smoltz, on the other hand, seems doubly determined to come back from his shoulder injury and pitch again and he continues to keep himself in excellent physical condition.
10. Scarcity. This applies primarily to left-handed relief pitchers.
11. Luck. I have no other explanation for Nolan Ryan’s ability to throw 95 mph at age 40. ‘Nuff said.
Feel free to either come up with a formula to calculate whether Jim Edmonds, Bobby Abreu, or Raúl Ibañez would be more useful to the Cubs in 2009, or flame away at the whole concept.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
7 recs |
49 comments
Comments
cool
all good points. for me its tough to choose betwen abreu and ibanez. i think they would both be good additions. I think Abreu is the better choice but i hate the fuck he’s a type a. so tough choice
by Glacier on Nov 2, 2008 1:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You have taken a great deal of time and effort to do this.
While there are general rules you can follow (i.e. players tend to peak between 27-30) to determine the effects of age on a player, the reality is that each player is an individual. Some can produce at 40, while others are washed up at 30. It is, therefore, a crapshoot and not something you can put a specific formula to.
JMHO, YMMV, etc.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Nov 2, 2008 1:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Would you be willing to take a chance on Andruw Jones
if the Dodgers picked up all but $1M of the tab?
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on Nov 2, 2008 5:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
NO
Jones has been playing pro ball since ‘94 and has been in the majors since ’96 – at age 31, he’s already played 1836 career ML games. That’s almost as many as Jim Edmonds, Mike Piazza, Moises Alou, and Jason Giambi. He’s spent almost all of those 1836 games running his legs ragged in CF. He might not be quite as “finished” as he appeared this season, but we’ve likely seen the last of him as a truly good player.
"I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game." - Walt Whitman
by hip2bsquare on Nov 2, 2008 6:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Nov 2, 2008 8:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely not.
Jones has been in serious decline the last two years and spent last year injured. He’s got known attitude problems. No thank you.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Nov 3, 2008 3:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No
Andruw Jones suffers from what will ultimately be Alfonso Soriano’s undoing and that is slowed down bat speed. In Atlanta in 2006 and 2007 Andruw Jones should visible signs of a slower bat. He also started cheating up in the batter box to compensate. Fortunately for Jones his agent is Scott Boras and the GM of the Dodgers is the terrible Ned Coletti. Shame on the Dodgers for not recognizing that Jones entire game is predicated on getting a big bat through the zone and that loss of bat speed was screaming warning sign for rapid decline.
"Listen, if you start worrying about the people in the stands, before too long you're up in the stands with them." -- Tommy Lasorda
by MDBNIU on Nov 3, 2008 9:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What you say here
is one of the reasons I’m bullish on Derrek Lee, despite the fact that he is 33.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Nov 2, 2008 2:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
While I don't think that DLee will ever duplicate 2005,
I think he will be better next year. If only he were LH…
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on Nov 2, 2008 5:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You forgot...
12. Performance-enhancing drug use. Much less of an issue now than several years ago, but still something that can help aging players keep up with the young guys (provided, of course, they don’t get caught).
"I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game." - Walt Whitman
by hip2bsquare on Nov 2, 2008 6:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I chose to ignore drug use.
It is easy to say that a guy used PEDs and it shortened his career (e.g., Len Dykstra, Mark McGwire), but a much greater factor in the long run is the use of anti-inflammatories and pain killers. Guys who try to mask injuries and play through them usually end up with chronic injuries that shorten their careers.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on Nov 2, 2008 7:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Shorter term contracts for older guys are fine...
…but the categories that you have provided are very helpful.
by DudeVf11 on Nov 2, 2008 9:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Lots of variables...
…involved here and one of the big ones is how a player has trended the last couple of years. Just because a guy is 35, doesn’t mean he can’t produce at the same level for another 3-4 years, it just depends on what he relies on to be successful and how well that part of his physical game has held up.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Nov 2, 2008 11:27 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Nice
Its all about two things training and genetics. Smart training and good genes is what gets a player to be like Ricky Henderson. Between Abreau and Ibanez I go Ibanez his numbers look a lot like Aramis’s and they say he’s young for his age. I also read hes got a bad glove but I havent seen enough of him to assess. I know Al hates it when I mention it but I really think we land Giles. Sorry Al, last time.
by Steve Sax on Nov 3, 2008 1:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Why do you keep harping on this?
Particularly when Giles has made it clear that he will stay in San Diego at all costs?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Nov 3, 2008 3:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Question,
have you come to that conclusion based on Brian Giles not being willing to waive his no-trade to go to Boston last year?
I just wonder if that is not necessarily an indication of whether he would waive the no-trade during the off-season.
Here’s why:
1.) Being traded in the off-season is much less upheaval for you and your family than an in-season trade.
2.) Giles may be more willing to be traded to an NL team, possibly just an NL West team but not necessarily; he may be willing to go to other NL teams.
3.) Its clear the Padres no longer want him as they have taken a u-turn and are now rebuilding. This was not the case when Giles signed his contract and was not clear that the Padres were changing direction in the middle of last season.
4.) There is certainty that wherever he would be traded, it would only be for one season. If he was traded during last season, it may have been for 1 1/2 years as the 2009 season is a club option year.
I’m not saying Brian Giles IS willing, I’m just allowing for the possibility that he MIGHT be willing to be traded.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Nov 3, 2008 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Giles will be 38 in January.
He’s likely going into his last major league season. Why would he want upheaval now?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Nov 3, 2008 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
While were on the topic
Giles is one of those guys whos a gamer despite his age. Even though his power numbers dropped over the years he’s still sharp at the plate and one of the best at right. And I agree with Cows Are Cool that cows are indeed cool and also the difference as he pointed out between being traded midseason vs before spring training for a player may determine whether or not accepting a trade. Maybe Giles doesnt like Boston let’s face it its no Chi-town.
by Steve Sax on Nov 3, 2008 8:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There's nothing wrong with Boston.
In any case, he’d have been working there for a couple of months and been in the postseason. Clearly, that’s not high on his list.
I’d drop this, because it is never, ever going to happen.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Nov 4, 2008 3:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Al.
Let’s stop wasting time and space on deals that we know will never happen. Next thing you know, we’ll be debating how we can get the Mets to trade Santana for Howry. Enough of the Giles talk.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Nov 4, 2008 8:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In addition to what I already listed,
how about avoiding being a part of another 100 or more loss season?
The 2008 Padres were as miserable or even worse to watch as the 2006 Cubs. If watching is torture for the fans, what must it be like to play on such a bad team?
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Nov 3, 2008 9:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jamie Moyer and Luis Gonzalez
Their careers really took off after the age of 30. Both of them spent part of their careers in their 20’s with the Cubs. Since 1986, Jamie Moyer ranks third in career victories among lefthanders behind only Tom Glavine and Randy Johnson.
Luis Gonzalez went on to have five 25+ HR, 100+ RBI plus seasons with the Diamondbacks.
I don’t think either one of them will make it to the Hall of Fame. They both have had long, productive careers that no one would have predicted when they were young.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Nov 3, 2008 8:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I think...
…you have to look at pitchers differently, especially the ones that throw from the port side. These guys don’t rely on reflexes and being athletic, near as much as position players.
Regarding Gonzalez, I know some people think he had a little help in achieving his (out of the blue) power numbers, and its something we just don’t know.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Nov 3, 2008 8:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rick Reuschel
Pitchers are different. I point to Big Daddy. Rick Reuschel was able to resurrect his career with the Pirates and Giants, when he was in his late 30’s. It seemed nobody complained about Big Daddy’s weight, when he was winning.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Nov 3, 2008 9:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Great points...
Great post. I agree on almost all accounts. Mark Grace was another one who started to take care of his body later in his career. I’ve heard him say that he wished he had done that his whole career. He would have had 3000 hits!
by HomerInTheGloamin' on Nov 3, 2008 9:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Grace smoke quite a bit during most of his career?
I’ll bet if that habit wasn’t around there would be some real good players in the past whose numbers would have been even better.
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #14 6-2 (2-2). Next up at Baylor. Chase Coffman is a god.
by nji232 on Nov 3, 2008 9:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
I once saw Grace in the team hotel bar in Cleveland, smoking up a storm. It was hard for me to imagine why a professional athlete would do that to his body.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Nov 3, 2008 10:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How about a young professional athlete signing a multi-million dollar
contract and going out an driving a motorcycle or sports car at 200mph? I never will understand that one.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Nov 3, 2008 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ahhh, The old
“Winslow/Williams” maneuver.
But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night
by N Oakley on Nov 3, 2008 10:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
or, more tragically,
Pelle Lindbergh
"I'm not an athlete, I'm a baseball player"
-John Kruk
by thinskull on Nov 10, 2008 8:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
In a bar. Might also mean he was drinking and smoking. While I’m no teetotaler, drinking and smoking in season isn’t elite fitness behaviour.
But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night
by N Oakley on Nov 3, 2008 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nope, sure isn't.
Although, having a drink or two probably wouldn’t hurt much.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Nov 3, 2008 10:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kind of an OT reference, but that is why lots of people think
Dwight Howard will have a longer career in the NBA than most players. He doesn’t ever go out and drink and party hard like most of the NBA players. So despite having a large body, he takes such good care of it that he should be around for quite some time.
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #14 6-2 (2-2). Next up at Baylor. Chase Coffman is a god.
by nji232 on Nov 3, 2008 11:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Charlie Hough would like to have a word with you...
One time I was fortunate enough to gain entrance to the visitor’s clubhouse during a game at Wrigley when the Marlins were in town. First thing I see is Charlie Hough riding an exercise bike, while eating a doughnut and smoking a cigarette…
Ah, those crazy knuckleballers….
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Nov 3, 2008 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't Hough About 45 Back Then?
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Nov 3, 2008 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I remember a story about Hough, when he signed with the Marlins...
… right about that time. He took his physical and the doctor told him he was in great shape for a man in his 60’s…
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Nov 3, 2008 2:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And he was being kind. Hough looked like he was in his 80's.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Nov 3, 2008 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yep. It was 1993, Marlins inaugural season.
Charlie was 45.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Nov 3, 2008 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like the list..but you
always have to factor in science. I think it is safe to safe that training techniques and the supplement industry (the legal ones) are always evolving and players are always looking for an edge. I think as long as there are advancements in those areas, I think it will be tough to compare players since we will always be comparing apples to oranges. We don’t really know what they take or how they train.
It is entirely possible that we could see players last longer or we could start seeing players be more productive earlier and taper off sooner than expected.
Who would have thought that Viagra was a performance enhancer on the field :)
"Sports are a crazy business. If there was a template, we'd all be champions, right? But there's one winner and 29 or 30 losers; one guy wins, everybody else is tied for last. That's the way it works" -- Mark Cuban
by TheRiot Police on Nov 3, 2008 12:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hawk
I remember seeing Peter Gammons on ESPN talk about Andre Dawsom some years ago. He was saying that Hawk was in such great shape, that he probably could have played pro-ball until he was fifty. The only thing that stopped him was the horrible shape his knees where in.
I saw an online picture of him not too long ago, and he was still ripped. It’s amazing that he still looks as good as he does, with two artificial knees and all. Amazing…
by TheHawkRules on Nov 3, 2008 1:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Thus, the factor entitled "turf".
Turf took at least 5 years off his career.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on Nov 3, 2008 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably True
But, Andre’s knees where messed up before he signed with any ball club. If my memory serves me right, he busted some ligaments in a youth football game and had to have surgery. Science not being what it is today, plus a lame doctor, they removed a lot of cartilage and surgery didn’t go too great either. He eventually recovered the best he could, and began his baseball career with this already to deal with. In his book, he talked about how the scouts who would come and watch him play high school ball, they wouldn’t touch him because of how bad his knees already where. The starting of a trend…
It wasn’t until he kept putting the numbers up in college that the Expos decided to give him a shot…. The rest is history.
The turf made things worse a lot quicker… but man, if you only knew how many surgeries and such he had on those knees. It’s amazing he did what he was about too.
by TheHawkRules on Nov 3, 2008 2:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
314 SB's; Only 109 CS; 8 Gold Gloves
That’s incredible considering his knee problems. Andre still had above average speed when he first got to the Cubs.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Nov 3, 2008 2:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
One wonders what kind of numbers he would have put up with two good knees.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Nov 3, 2008 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wounded Knees
Check this out. Look at what Andre endured…
“Knee surgeries? "Had 12,” Andre Dawson says in that stoic way of his.
Does that count the number of times you needed the swollen knees drained?
A laugh.
“No,” he says.
How many times did you have those knees drained?
“On average?”
Yes.
“At the end of every spring training. That was good for about three months. And after every surgery. About three times a year, maybe more.”
How many years?
Another laugh.
“Every year.”
Every year of your 21-year career?
“Pretty much.”
http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080107/SPORTS/801070320
by TheHawkRules on Nov 3, 2008 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hawk is no. 3 on my list of top 100 Cubs
behind only Ernie and Ryno. Almost a tie with Billy Williams. And Ken Hubbs would at least be on the list somewhere, even if 100.
Tommie Agee was out.
"This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that was once good, and it could be good again." TM
by Weeghman Park on Nov 3, 2008 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha...
Your all right then my friend!
by TheHawkRules on Nov 3, 2008 3:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

by 



















