D'backs, Rockies looking to move from Tucson ST

by tucsoncubsfan on Nov 20, 2008 10:30 AM CST Comment 35 comments

Here is a link to the Arizona Daily Star http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/268050

There was a discussion on this in another post the other day and so I thought I'd post an update here. With the $5 million settlement between the Sox and Pima County to allow the Sox to break their contract, has triggered the "out" clause in the Rockies and D'backs contracts.

I sure hope the county can persuade another team to come here so the Rockies and D'backs won't leave but I really doubt that will happen. Looks like spring training will cease to exist here in a few years.

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County officials said they were surprised to hear the Diamondbacks might break their lease at Tucson Electric Park.
“It comes as a complete shock,” said Supervisor Ramón Valadez. “They themselves have told both Chuck (Huckelberry) and I they wanted to stay. They obviously have concerns, but they were very explicit about their desire to stay here.”

It comes as a complete shock? WTF are you talking about? They expect the Dbacks to be willing to stay in Tucson with one other team or even no other teams should the Rockies bolt? These people are idiots.

by dmlichte on Nov 20, 2008 10:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I know

that was my reaction too. I don’t know how they could be “shocked” when everyone here in Tucson knew this would happen.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson

by tucsoncubsfan on Nov 20, 2008 11:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think "shocked"

might be hyperbole, but I do think the statements by Derrick Hall immediately after the settlement with the Sox was announced were surprising to Pima County.

First of all, it is absolutely true that the D’Backs have publicly been saying all along that their first choice was to stay in Tucson. Pima County has been holding out hope that they could get a team to replace the White Sox and that would satisfy everyone. Also, previously, the D’Backs have said that they would stay until the end of their lease, which would have given Pima County more time to find another team.

What was surprising about what Hall said is that having three teams in Tucson really didn’t cut it, they really need four. So, even if a replacement for the White Sox was found, the D’Backs essentially were saying they might bolt anyway. The precendent that the White Sox have set is that a lease can be broken for a relatively small amount of money. The D’Backs are now saying, even if there is a third team training in Tucson, they might leave anyway. This, I think, was news to Pima County, as was the news that the D’Backs have been having discussions with private developers about a new ballpark.

by azjazzman on Nov 20, 2008 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No way he is "shocked"

It’s been obious and inevitible that eventual, there would be no games in Tucson, for a couple years now. I personally brought this subject up about a year ago. Having ST games in Tucson, with all the teams centrally located in Phoenix, makes zero sense really. Atleast now that there is going to be only 2 teams there. I feel bad for the people who will be losing money however.

Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen

by lemon20pie on Nov 20, 2008 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What you say is true

the D’backs have said that their first choice is Tucson but I always considered that a public relations response. I just felt that if the Sox bailed out then they would too. By the time a new stadium is built, they could actually fulfill the lease. It’s just a sad situation for me and those who love baseball to see spring training disappear.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson

by tucsoncubsfan on Nov 20, 2008 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Why Tuscon ST for D-Backs?

Their AAA team is no longer in Tuscon. I’ve got to think that the D-Backs players live in the Phoenix area. It seems crazy to me that the D-Backs wouldn’t want to move their ST to the state capital metro area.

As bad luck would have it for you, the only time the Cubs are in Arizona during the regular season is a mid-week series in April almost 2 hours up the road from Tuscon in Phoenix. I don’t know if you are going to be able to make any of those games or not. It seems like it would be easier for you, if those games were on the weekend.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Nov 20, 2008 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The first thing I look at when the schedule comes out

is when the Cubs will be in Phoenix. It’s much easier for me to see a game(s) if it’s on the weekend than during the week. A couple years ago they were in Phoenix on a weekend and I met my nephew who flew in from Chicago to see a couple of games. I also hate it when they come here so early in the season. I much prefer to see the Cubs in July or August.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson

by tucsoncubsfan on Nov 20, 2008 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I expect both teams to be gone be 2010

Also, does anybody know why the White Sox went to Tucson for ST originally?

Old Style is the nectar of life.

by Mordecai on Nov 20, 2008 10:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

There is no chance

both or either team will be gone by 2010. It takes anywhere from 18 months to two years to design and build a ST ballpark and even if they started today, one could not be done in time for 2010. 2011 is the earliest and more likely 2012.

And the other thing is, the TSA funds are maxed out until about 2015-16, so any new ballpark would have to be privately funded, because the cities are all cash strapped right now. My guess is private developers would not be too anxious to pony up the money, with the real estate market in the dumps right now.

The best bet would be the Indian community proposal, as they are flush with casino money, but $100M is a big chunk of change even for them, and trust me, they will not sink money into something like this unless they can identify an immediate return in terms of increased business (to the tune of $100M +) at their casinos.

Bottom Line: This is not a done deal by any means. The Rockies and D’Backs may want to move out of Tucson, but in today’s economic climate, it will not be so easy to get a ballpark built and they may be staying in Tucson for awhile, because they have no other choice. $100M pays for a lot of trips between Tucson and Phoenix.

by azjazzman on Nov 20, 2008 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What's to stop Arizona or Colrado..

from sharing an existing one-team game-day facility? Assuming that they could find suitable practice fields for the non-game day activity, and that the current occupant (Cubs, A’s, Giants, Angels or Brewers) would agree to share their stadium for a couple of years.

by bison on Nov 21, 2008 11:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Because there aren't enough practice fields.

Teams want to have their practice fields, and minor league fields, adjacent to their major league facility. Even the Cubs are at a little inconvenience, because Fitch Park, where the minor leaguers play, is about 1/2 mile away.

The only one of the five teams you mention that might have enough space for the D’backs or Rockies to share a facility would be the Brewers at Maryvale, but I doubt they’d want to give it up.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 22, 2008 4:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not on a permanent basis...

just for a season or two, while a permanent facility is constructed. There isn’t a single suitable site in metro Phoenix where a team could practice? A community college, a city/county facility, something? If the Tucson teams spend half of their days busing to Phoenix for games anyway, what’s the difference if their training and practice facilities are on the same site?

Once the Dodgers left Dodgertown for good last year and took up residence in AZ, where was their ST base? They were playing “home” games at different vacant ST stadiums. Why couldn’t that happen again?

by bison on Nov 22, 2008 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Dodgers played only HALF their games in the Phoenix area...

… they played home games at the A’s park in Phoenix (since the A’s had left for Japan). I believe their minor leaguers stayed in Dodgertown.

I cannot imagine any team — even the local team, the Dbacks — doing this unless they absolutely, positively knew their facility would be ready in a year.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 22, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

20 years ago, that might have worked.

But now, it’s the norm to have your own facility, not to use the facilities of Cactus Jack Community College.

On my drive back to SD last spring, I stopped in Yuma. I hadn’t been to the Padres old Spring Training facility in years.

To look at it now, it’s barely a good city park. The main diamond may be nicely kept, but the dugouts — well, they are now worn and beat up, but even when they were serviceable — I’ve seen better high school stadiums. The seating/bleachers were as uncomfortable as they were in 1987. There’s no shade.

The clubhouse — if you can call it that — no bigger than a 7-11. Even the old HoHoKam looked luxurious next to Yuma’s Desert Sun Stadium.

It’s hard to believe even MLB exhibition games were played in this facility.

In the early 80s’s — The Angels trained in Casa Grande, outside of Tuscon, near I-10 and I-8 — but played home games in Palm Springs. How strange was that?

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Nov 23, 2008 10:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Angels, IIRC...

… actually split their home games between Palm Springs and a facility in the Phoenix area — I think it might have been somewhere in Mesa.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 24, 2008 4:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't remember the exact reason

but I assume it was because of the large contingent of Chicagoans that come here during the winter that the Sox decided to come here plus I’m sure Pima County gave the Sox some monetary (tax) incentives too.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson

by tucsoncubsfan on Nov 20, 2008 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not aware

of any financial incentives ever being given to a team to move the ST base of operations to AZ. The closest would be a favorable lease on the stadium. Part of the reason Pima County accepted the White Sox settlement offer of $5 M is that the Sox only pay $500K a year to use TEP and even if Pima County went to court and won, the damages would only be about $2M.

by azjazzman on Nov 20, 2008 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure

what you are implying, but Reinsdorf lives in AZ and his desire to move the Sox ST to AZ was well known. Despite what it may look like from the outside, the funds available to build new ballparks for ST is not bottomless. Look at the situation in FL, where teams want new facilities but aren’t getting them.

Pima County put together a proposal to build a park for the newly franchised Arizona team and one other team from outside the Cactus League and the White Sox jumped on it. Their desire to move to Phoenix only happend subsequently. At the time, they were delighted to move to Tucson and have a nice new facility to play ST games in.

What has happened since 1998 is that the ante gets getting upped for ST. Teams used to be happy to break even, now the ballparks keep getting nicer, the crowds larger and whe whole thing has become more of a challenge.

by azjazzman on Nov 20, 2008 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What surprises me...

… is that since Reinsdorf lives in Paradise Valley, he didn’t try to get a deal done to move to the Phoenix area in the first place.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 20, 2008 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The climate

was MUCH different in 1998 than it is now. There was no TSA, and no cities falling over themselves to build Spring Training parks. People forget, there were predictions that the Cactus league would eventualy fold in the early 1990s. When Cleveland left Tucson for Florida, it was anticipated that more would follow. The inclusion of ST facilities in the TSA charter was in response to this. In truth, the deal Reinsdorf had to come to Tucson and share a ballpark with the D’Backs was a pretty sweet one in 1998.

I’m sure Reinsdorf would have preferred to locate in Phoenix, but there was no ballpark for him to go to. Tucson was the next best thing.

by azjazzman on Nov 20, 2008 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I remember the predictions of Cactus League failure...

… the people in Maricopa County spent a ton of $ to get teams to move to AZ and it has paid off with a lot of tourist dollars coming in, I’m sure you will agree.

What does “TSA” stand for?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 20, 2008 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tourism And Sports Authority

and the TSA is funded by a surcharge on hotel rooms and rental cars, so the people who have paid the most to fund those new ballparks are the tourists and business convention goers who travel to the Phoenix area…whether they go to Spring Training games or not.

by azjazzman on Nov 20, 2008 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oops

Actually, they now go by STA. They must have changed it to avoid confusion with the airline security folks.

by azjazzman on Nov 20, 2008 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Probably so.

And you’re right about the surcharges, fees, etc. on rental cars. I just paid a small fortune in those fees on my rental at PHX airport,

The fees came to 27% of the bill… and that was BEFORE the 15.3% tax. That means they charged taxes on the fees, a neat trick. The total fees, taxes, etc. came to 46.7% of the total that Hertz charged me.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 21, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I always find

myself apologizing to my freinds when they come to the valley on business or whatever for the ridiculous fees. So, I’ll extend an apology to you…but if it makes it any easier to swallow, you ARE supporting Spring Training Baseball in Phoenix.

by azjazzman on Nov 21, 2008 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

True enough.

I have, at times, been tempted to rent my car in the Phoenix area away from the airport — some of those fees and taxes are airport-only.

But the convenience factor always trumps the cost factor.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 21, 2008 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But, overall -- the taxes worked

and the tourists paid them, generally. I thought baseball in AZ was going to die away in 1991, and it was a sad prospect.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Nov 23, 2008 10:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Breaking news!

The White Sox have named their new spring training facility “Camelback Ranch.” No, really! It says so right here.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Last words of the leaky pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Nov 21, 2008 10:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs