Warning this might make you cringe

by cubstoseriesby100 on Nov 5, 2008 9:32 AM CST Comment 57 comments

While reading reports of Greg Maddux retiring and seeing Jamie Moyer finally get a ring I was thinking back to the winter of 1987.

Either on the major league roster or about to come up we had the following going into that off season.

Lee Smith

Ryne Sandberg

Andre Dawson off an MVP year

Rick Sutcliffe finishing 2nd in the Cy Young voting

Rafael Palmeiro (remember he was in LF)

Greg Maddux

Jamie Moyer

Mark Grace was a top prospect (again we could have had both him and Palmeiro as Raffy was a LFer with us)

Shawon Dunston

Dennis Eckersley

It makes you think of that phrase "Of all the words of tongue and pen the saddest of these is what might have been"

Can you imagine what it might have been if we had kept this group together?

It's the one bad trade effect. We traded Lee Smith and therefore had to replace him a year later with Mitch Williams.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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In all fairness...

Palmeiros success was steroid aided, so I wouldnt shed any tears for losing him….and Moyer had a lot of bad years in Texas and Baltimore before he turned it around in Seattle.

But hey, at least they made it in 89, right?

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Nov 5, 2008 9:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Palmeiro and roids

Palmeiro was still a great hitter w/o roids. Let’s imagine he never used roids, which, who knows if he stays in Chicago maybe… If nothing else he could have accumulated Grace like numbers, probably better since his Steroid use at least suggests that he had some appreciation for physical fitness unlike Grace.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Nov 5, 2008 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I can say...

…with a high degree of confidence, that he didn’t do the roids until later in his career. I saw this guy up close and personal, and the dude could flat out hit and generate a lot of power with his hands.

I talked to him in the fall after he was traded, and he was not happy to leave the Cubs.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 5, 2008 1:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Raising the interesting rumors that swirl aroung

Raffy’s personal life as the reason he was traded.

But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night

by N Oakley on Nov 5, 2008 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"High degree of confidence?"

Based on what? He was caught red handed, so its a little naive to think he just dabbled the week before.

Cheater, plain and simple….besides the Cubs made the playoffs after he was traded anyway, so the real move to rue was obviously letting Maddux go a few years later.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Nov 5, 2008 2:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yea...

…those were very interesting.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 5, 2008 2:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Aren't you thinking of Dave Martinez?

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Nov 5, 2008 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Both, from what I recall at the time.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 5, 2008 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Both with Cindy Sandberg?

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Nov 5, 2008 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That was the rumor.

Never proven, but that was the rumor.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 5, 2008 4:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cindy, you bad girl, you.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Nov 5, 2008 6:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

1987 Team

The 1987 team statistics

Sutcliffe led the NL in wins with 18. Dawson led the league with 49 HR’s and 137 RBI’s. The Cubs led the league in HR’s with 209, but the team finished last in the NL East with a 76-85 record.

Trading Lee Smith away for Calvin Schiraldi and Al Nipper was one of the worst trades in Cubs history. Apparently, four straight 30+ save seasons weren’t good enough for the Cubs to hold on to Lee Arthur.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Nov 5, 2008 9:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

The product of Dallas Green...

If the Cubs wouldn’t have pissed Dallas Green off then he would have stayed in Chicago and this franchise would have won a World Series by now. The man had a plan and the man knew what the heck he was doing.

I couldn’t be happier for Jaime Moyer. He is left-handed version of Greg Maddux. Never in a million years would I have thought Moyer could reclaim a big league job at the age of 30 then go on to reel off 246 career victories. He is one of the classiest acts in the game of baseball and very generous. The Moyers have raised millions of dollars for charity in their adopted hometown of Seattle.

"Listen, if you start worrying about the people in the stands, before too long you're up in the stands with them." -- Tommy Lasorda

by MDBNIU on Nov 5, 2008 9:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

601 Combined Victories

between Maddux and Moyer.

At least, Maddux won a division title and a Cy Young Award with the Cubs. Moyer didn’t have any of his truly good years with the Cubs.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Nov 5, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The trade

of Smith for Schiraldi and Nipper left us without a closer and led directly to the following year’s trade of Palmeiro and Moyer for Mitch Williams. So in effect, Frey traded Smith, Palmeiro, and Moyer for one decent year of Williams. By far worse than Brock for Broglio.

I agree totally on Moyer. One of the good guys, and was glad to see him have a good outing in the world series after bad playoffs.

by Clark Addison on Nov 5, 2008 10:01 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Brock-Broglio Trade; Smith-Nipper-Schiraldi Trade

Okay, I know the Brock trade turned out horribly for the Cubs. From what I’ve heard, Lou Brock was a struggling right fielder with the Cubs, and Ernie Broglio had been a 20-game winner for the Cardinals. Knowing what the Cubs knew then, I can’t blame them for making the trade.

Al Nipper was never a top starting pitcher with the Red Sox. Schiraldi had not proven himself to be a quality closer for Boston. Lee Smith was an automatic 30+ saves guy for the Cubs pitching for mostly losing teams. Knowing that, the Cubs make that stupid trade. That was inexcusable.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Nov 5, 2008 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Lee Smith was overrated

The Nipper Schrialdi trade was a bad one. But truth is Lee Smith wasn’t all that he was cracked up to be. Hence big reason why I think it laughable to even consider him for the Hall of Fame. Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Dennis Eckersley, Rollie Fingers….these were Hall of Fame closers. Lee Smith couldn’t carry any of their jockstraps regardless his accumulation of nearly 500 saves on his career.

"Listen, if you start worrying about the people in the stands, before too long you're up in the stands with them." -- Tommy Lasorda

by MDBNIU on Nov 5, 2008 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Years after 1987

Goose Gossage and Paul Assenmacher were not good closers for the Cubs. Mitch Williams only had that one good year in 1989 with the Cubs before having some good years in Philly. Four of the five seasons following Lee Smith’s departure, the Cubs were left without a reliable closer. Randy Myers in 1993 finally brought stability to the closer role.

It’s a shame that Lee Smith for Cubs fans that he had his best years in St. Louis. That’s when Smith was a great closer. Over half of the HoF voters don’t think it’s laughable to have him in the Hall. Lee Arthur may not make it, but he’s got some HoF credentials with those 478 saves.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Nov 5, 2008 11:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I respectfully disagree

Lee Smith was the Harold Baines of relief pitchers. In other words a guy who was “pretty good” for a long time. That’s not Hall of Fame material in my books. Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Dennis Eckersley and Rollie Fingers all had meaningful stretches of dominance. Smith didn’t.

"Listen, if you start worrying about the people in the stands, before too long you're up in the stands with them." -- Tommy Lasorda

by MDBNIU on Nov 5, 2008 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Regardless of HOF status...

Lee Smith was a good closer and head and shoulders above most of the Cub closers during his non-Cub career.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Nov 5, 2008 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ahhh

Paul Assenmacher…there’s a name you don’t here every day.

"Hey! If the moon were made of ribs, wouldja eat it? I know I would!"

by cubs0505 on Nov 5, 2008 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wish I did. It makes me laugh.

And I always hear Harry’s voice saying it.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Last words of the leaky pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Nov 5, 2008 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks Jim Frey

Green, Goldsberry and Vukovich were on their way to building a world champion. Then they all got fired and replaced by Jim Frey and the Gerbil.

Thanks for nothing.

by Josh77 on Nov 5, 2008 11:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yep

"Listen, if you start worrying about the people in the stands, before too long you're up in the stands with them." -- Tommy Lasorda

by MDBNIU on Nov 5, 2008 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

The Cubs minor league system went into the toilet (refraining from using stronger language) with Frey at the helm. How long did it take for the Cubs minor league system to even become decent, not good, but just decent, after Frey exited? I’m glad things have improved with Jim Hendry.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Nov 5, 2008 12:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

For those who don't remember 1987 that well....

… that team might have done better had Smith not been so horrid. He had 12 — yes, TWELVE — blown saves that year and was getting regularly booed. The consensus was that it was time for him to go.

The problem is, Frey made a horrible deal and supposedly turned down two better ones:

Bob Welch straight up for Smith… Welch was still a solid starter in those days.

John Smoltz and Jeff Blauser for Smith — that one would have given us Blauser’s better years and a #1 starter for more than a decade.

I think Smith had to go, but Frey screwed up bigtime.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 5, 2008 1:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Jim Frey set the organization back years

And is screaming example for how you don’t automatically promote from within when vacancies occur. Best strategy is always to rigorously interview and hire the best person for the role. God how I loved Dallas Green.

"Listen, if you start worrying about the people in the stands, before too long you're up in the stands with them." -- Tommy Lasorda

by MDBNIU on Nov 5, 2008 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 5, 2008 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

For Smith's Sake; Really Take Issue with "Horrid"

I remember the boos. I’m glad he got out of Chicago for his sake. He had a couple of good years in Boston. He had a couple of great years in St. Louis. He proved his worth after leaving the Cubs.

About the blown saves, there were tougher save chances back in those days. Smith had 36 saves with 12 blown saves on a last place team. In 1989, Mitch Williams had 36 saves with 12 blown saves on a first place team. I don’t think “Wild Thing” was horrid in 1989, and I don’t think Lee Smith was horrid in 1987.

With the Cubs being in last place, Lee Smith was (or should have been) a good trading chip. The Cubs needed help with the starting rotation. Getting Bob Welch would have been nice. He was a proven starter with the Dodgers before having great years with the A’s. We do agree that the Cubs didn’t get nearly enough for Smith.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Nov 5, 2008 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No, he was horrid.

Take a look at his 1987 game logs. There were some really bad spectacular blown saves in there.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 5, 2008 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Got Last Laugh On Cubs

That wasn’t his best season, but Lee Smith’s “horrid” is better than what most Cubs closers have been. He saved a lot of games after leaving the Cubs. Believe me! I know the Cubs wish they had still had him in the early 1990’s, when he was with the Cardinals.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Nov 5, 2008 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

True, I suppose.

The problem wasn’t dealing him. The problem was who Frey got in return.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 5, 2008 4:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Word was Lasorda had a fit that the Dodgers didn't get a chance

to top that pathetic return.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Nov 5, 2008 6:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And...

… although Bob Welch had a well-documented alcohol problem, he did have at least three more good years after 1987, including 27 wins for Oakland in 1990 — that still stands as the most wins in a season in the last 40 years.

Yes, I know. Pitcher wins don’t tell the whole story. But Welch did have an outstanding year for the A’s in 1990. The Cubs sure could have used him in ’89.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 5, 2008 7:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, that rotation of:

Sutcliffe
Maddux
Bielecki
TBD

Could have used another starter!

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Nov 5, 2008 8:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Kilgus, Sanderson, Steve Wilson, Jeff Pico

The 1989 Cubs had a problem with that fourth starter spot. Of the many “fourth” starters, I thought Steve Wilson did the best job.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Nov 6, 2008 7:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sanderson was decent.

11-9, 3.94, probably his best overall season as a Cub.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 6, 2008 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sanderson and Steve Wilson

He had a lot of bullpen appearances with the Cubs late in the season. I knew Sanderson wasn’t going to be happy as a relief pitcher. I wasn’t unhappy to see him go to Oakland.

I was wrong about Steve Wilson. I thought he could develop into a good fourth starter for the Cubs. That didn’t happen. He could be really good or really bad starting games and ended up spending the bulk of his time in the bullpen.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Nov 6, 2008 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wilson...

… made an emergency start in September and struck out 10 in 5 innings. But that was really his last hurrah.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 6, 2008 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sanderson

Sanderson was the tough answer to a trivia question a lot of people forgot about being “Who are the 3 players who were on both the 84 and 89 Cubs”. Everyone gets Sandberg and Sutcliffe and can’t remember Sanderson.

Thngs of worth are worth fighting for regardless of the odds.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Nov 6, 2008 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I remember a game in Pittsburgh in August

Sanderson went 8 scoreless innings in relief in extra innings. The Cubs finally lost when he gave up a leadoff homerun to start his ninth inning of work.

I don’t remember details from his start, but from that game alone, he could have easily been 12-8.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Nov 6, 2008 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Jeff King Hit HR

in Pittsburgh to end that game on a Sunday afternoon before the Cubs swept the Expos at Wrigley in a three-game series in the middle of the week to take over first place.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Nov 6, 2008 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Good memory!

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Nov 6, 2008 1:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Didn't Lee Smith have a back problem in '87?

And didn’t he pitch much better after he got traded away because it got resolved?

I do remember him being booed his last year with the Cubs. And when they traded him, I had a feeling it would come back to haunt him. Al Nipper, if memory serves, never did anything good for the Cubs. And I think Schiraldi became the Bob Howry of that time, i.e., some relatively decent outings followed by ineffectiveness.

IF IT TAKES FOREVER!!

by Cubfansince1957 on Nov 5, 2008 11:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Lee Smith forever had a sweaty pained look on his face

He was notoriously overrated throughout his career. He accumulated lots of saves. Whoopie.

McGrath: I got a good deal on those boys. The scouts said they showed a lot of promise.
Reggie Dunlop: They brought their f***in' TOYS with 'em!
McGrath: Well, I'd rather have em playin with their toys than playin with themselves.
Reggie Dunlop: They're too dumb to play with themselves. Boy, every piece of garbage that comes into the market and you gotta buy it!

by MDBNIU on Nov 5, 2008 11:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The years don't quite align

but I was thinking for a moment that the Cubs could have had Welch, Grace, and Eckersley on the team at the same time. Good Lord, no bar would have been safe.

"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin

by davidalanu on Nov 6, 2008 1:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hahahahahahahaha...It's back!

KOW: “Of all the words of tongue and pen the saddest of these is what might have been”

Free Ronny Cedeno

by Kansas25 on Nov 5, 2008 1:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I noticed that, too.

Klassic Kow. My ROFLcopter also took off when I read the title of the fanpost.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Last words of the leaky pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Nov 5, 2008 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What I wouldn't give...

to still have access to some of the things she used to say…

Free Ronny Cedeno

by Kansas25 on Nov 5, 2008 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice what if...

But, it didn’t happen.

I dig Lee Smith, but it was time for him to go. Frey did mess that one up. Palmeiro, once the ‘riods kicked in, could only play 1B. Sides, even with the ’roids, RYNO would’ve whooped him for messing with his lady… at least, those rumors tend to make you think so.

Ah well…. it could have been great, but it never happened.

by TheHawkRules on Nov 5, 2008 1:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

What is the point to this exercise?

The past is over, let’s just move on.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Nov 5, 2008 1:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

the point is that human beings loving looking back ..

back to the future .. the past tense of then which was the future of our present ..

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Nov 5, 2008 2:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I loved those movies.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Nov 5, 2008 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Dennis Eckersley

Was traded by Dallas Green before the 1987 season.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Nov 5, 2008 2:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

But...

Dennis Eckersley was also battling alcholism during his Cubbie days and was no longer effective as starter after a good multi-year stretch as such. Dallas Green elected to dump Eckersley based on fact at hand. Hard to fault him for that. Tony LaRussa was the one that made him a personal reclamation project and along with Dave Duncan had inspiration to move him into a reliever role.

"Listen, if you start worrying about the people in the stands, before too long you're up in the stands with them." -- Tommy Lasorda

by MDBNIU on Nov 5, 2008 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs