The Full HOF Ballot
by tville on Dec 1, 2008 9:58 PM CST
43 comments
A previous post covered the ex-Cubs, but here is how the full slate of candidates shapes up for this year's voting:
• Harold Baines
• Jay Bell
• Bert Blyleven
• David Cone
• Andre Dawson
• Ron Gant
• Mark Grace
• Rickey Henderson
• Tommy John
• Don Mattingly
• Mark McGwire
• Jack Morris
• Dale Murphy
• Jesse Orosco
• Dave Parker
• Dan Plesac
• Tim Raines
• Jim Rice
• Lee Smith
• Alan Trammell
• Greg Vaughn
• Mo Vaughn
• Matt Williams
Henderson is a lock, and because there are few other notables on the list, this might be the perfect situation for Andre Dawson and Jim Rice. That said, the writers could make this a lean year and only elect one player.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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no mattingly???
Dear Santa:: All I want for X-mas this year is an official 2009 Jake Peavy Cubs Jersey. Oh and a Beimel one too. I've been a real good guy for the most part!!!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 1, 2008 10:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Donny Baseball..........
………..has less of a shot, in my opinion, than Dawson, Rice, or even Smith.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 1, 2008 10:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rickey
is a first-time lock. I have reservations about the rest (although a few were great favorites of mine)
Oh and a memo to Mark McGuire: I’m not here to talk about the past.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=942HcHKbOno
by leothelip on Dec 1, 2008 10:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I loved...........
………Matt Williams and Dale Murphy. Just great, no-nonsense players.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 1, 2008 10:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Hawk
It’s funny we were discussing the HOF ballot at work today. Because I’m the Cubs fan in the office, they all mocked my defense of Dawson. With Henderson a shoe-in, and a light cast of other nominations, Andre may get in this year.
Check out my Cubs shrine: http://picasaweb.google.com/vegascubfan/CubsRooms#
by VegasCubFan on Dec 1, 2008 11:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Holy Crap.
I had completely forgot all about Todd Van Poppel.
by madmf on Dec 2, 2008 9:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What about Cone?
Think he’s got a shot?
"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion
by DTJchris on Dec 2, 2008 3:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Good career, but...........
……….I don’t think his stats support HOF induction.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 2, 2008 7:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bert Blyleven should be in.
Maybe he’ll get his shot this year.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 2, 2008 4:12 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Blyleven Should Be In, But Won't Get In
Sadly, I don’t think he’ll get his shot until he gets to the Veterans Committee. I am very impressed with his number of strikeouts and shutouts. For those who don’t know, he was a big part of world championship teams in both leagues with the Pirates and Twins. I hope I’m wrong about Blyleven not getting elected. He is deserving.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 2, 2008 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bert Blyleven not being in the HOF is one of the grest mysteries of our times. I still
don’t under tand why he is not in.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 2, 2008 10:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Small Market Teams for Blyleven; No Cy Youngs
He didn’t get to the California Angels, a big market team, until the end of his career. He pitched the majority of his career with the Twins, Rangers, Indians, and Pirates. He didn’t get to that “magical” 300-win mark. He got overshadowed by Nolan Ryan in the early and mid-1970’s in the American League. Parker, Stargell, and Tekulve were considered to be the big stars of the 1979 Pirates. The Indians were terrible when Blyleven was there. When the Twins won the World Series in 1987, Frank Viola was their ace. Blyleven didn’t win any Cy Youngs.
All that adds up to a weak argument against Blyleven. He had the best curveball of his time. How can you argue with the strikeouts and shutouts? Evidently, some misinformed HOF voters do.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 2, 2008 10:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
The shutouts and strikeouts are amazingly impressive. Had he stuck around for another year or two to get to 300 wins, he’d have been in long ago.
You may say he pitched for small market teams, but he played for two WS winners, overshadowed or not.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 2, 2008 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Baloney Arguments; Bill Conlin
I try to think like these HOF voters in evaluating why they don’t vote for certain players. My favorite is Bill Conlin not voting for Nolan Ryan because Ryan couldn’t hold a lead for the Astros in the eighth inning of game 5 of the 1980 NLCS against Bill Conlin’s beloved Phillies. I suppose that negated the 300+ wins, 5000+ strikeouts, and 7 no-hitters. Conlin also has a dim view of bloggers.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 2, 2008 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's hoping
Bert’s a hell of a nice guy, in addition to having been a very good pitcher.
(When I shot Twins pregame stuff a few years back, we had some downtime and spent a lot of time talking pitching, general baseball, and his fondness for Wrigley Field.)
by MN exile on Dec 2, 2008 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Cone & Mattingly
Wouldn’t be even in the discussion if they had played their entire careers in Kansas City or Pittsburgh.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Dec 2, 2008 10:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
+1
Mattingly wouldn’t get 5% of the vote, had he been a lifetime Pirate. David Cone did win a Cy Young. It wasn’t with the Mets. It wasn’t with the Yankees. It was with the Royals. Who cares about that? Cone is remembered for what he did with the New York teams. BTW, he won a World Series with Toronto. Had Cone spent his whole career with KC, he wouldn’t get 5% of the vote, either. He’s no HOF’er.
Cone did lead the Southern League in walks in 1984 with the Memphis Chicks in the KC organization. I’m surprised he had a good major league career after that.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 2, 2008 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Raines should be in too
Tim Raines had a great career as a leadoff hitter (.385 lifetime OBP, 808 SB), but he had the misfortune of playing at exactly the same time as the best leadoff hitter ever (Henderson), plus his best years were in Montreal so no one noticed how good he really was.
by Jody Jody Davis on Dec 2, 2008 10:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
With Much Hesitation, No on Rock
He was a very good player. He had the best major league career of anyone who played with the “modern day” Memphis Chicks between 1978-1997. He was a second baseman with the Chicks. He didn’t get to the magical “3000” hit mark. He didn’t break any significant stolen base records, despite swiping 808 bags.
It’s true that his chances would have been helped had he gotten to the White Sox at an earlier age. Montreal was an obscure place to play baseball. Henderson was with the Yankees during some prime years, and Raines wasn’t. When push comes to shove, I wouldn’t vote for Rock Raines to be in the Hall. That’s a tough call on my part.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 2, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I disagree...
I would say Raines is a Hall of Famer. He’s a demonstratively better lead-off batter than Lou Brock was (higher average, on-base, & slugging and while his stolen base total was 130 less than Brock, his success rate was a full 10% higher at 85%!), and Brock made it on the first ballot. I’ll be the first to admit that Brock was a machine in the World Series, but that’s just what makes him first ballot—I haven’t heard much anyone disagree on his overall credentials. Having similar overall credentials, Raines still belongs, as he’s quite possibly one of the top 3-5 leadoff hitters who’s ever played. In my eyes, it’s just that simple—he’s good enough for the Hall.
As you pointed out, the only real knocks on him are that he played for Montreal during many of his peak years (which I’m assuming isn’t a big factor for you, as you said you’d be in favor of Dawson & Blyleven in other posts), most of his post season experience came after he was 36 (thus his performance in the “big games” was lower than might be desired, though still respectible), and he played during the same time as Henderson—none of which are really his fault in any way.
That said, I’d be frankly surprised if he actually got elected, but maybe voters will consider him more once Henderson is in already.
by MarchHare on Dec 3, 2008 1:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Surprised with 24.3% of Vote
I would not vote for Rock, but I thought it was ridiculous that he was only named on 24.3% of the ballots. Raines is the best player for whom I would not vote. I had to think long and hard about it. I think he tailed off a little too soon going to the Yankees, ironically enough. Because that team had so much talent, it cut down on the playing time of Raines. Therefore, It cut down on the numbers with which he ended. If he could have put up the same type of numbers in New York that he had with the White Sox, I would say he belonged in the Hall.
Carter may end up having the only Expos cap on a plaque in Cooperstown. Dawson might not make it. Jeff Reardon hasn’t made it, and Tim Raines won’t. Raines was an underrated player.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 3, 2008 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can accept your reasoning, even though I'd still vote for him if I could
I do agree, though, that it’s doubtful that he will actually get enough support. The sad thing is that if he had just one memorable postseason moment with the Yankees (something along the line of Aaron Boone’s ALCS home run back in ’03) he might be in already. The voters just seem that fickle, at times, unless your career leaves absolutely nothing to doubt.
by MarchHare on Dec 3, 2008 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Imagine If...
he had played with the Expos, White Sox, and Yankees in reverse order. If he had been in his prime when he was with the Yankees, I think he would have been elected last season. If he had saved his declining years for the Expos, then no one would care. I thought Rock was a good player for the White Sox.
Henderson had the good fortune of being with good A’s and Yankees teams during his prime. Rock was only in the playoffs once in 1981 during his good years. We didn’t see the real Rock with the Yankees in later years.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 3, 2008 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Forgot about 1993 ALCS
He did hit .444 in the 1993 ALCS for the White Sox. Because that team didn’t make the World Series, Raines didn’t claim the limelight.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 3, 2008 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My prediction is:
Henderson-93%
Rice-77%
Dawson-72%
Blyleven-68%
By the way, Blyleven is my generations Ron Santo. How can this guy not be in the HOF already? 13 wins shy of 300, 3.31 era, 3700 strike outs. What a joke!! Should we start the “HOF voting process needs to change” argument yet?
Dawson will get in 2010, if not this year. Here’s a list of 2010 first time qualifiers:
Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Shane Reynolds, Robin Ventura, and Todd Zeile.
I don’t see any no-brainers here and aside from maybe Alomar and Martinez, nobody who could possibly challenge the Hawk for next year. I hope he gets in this year with Santo so me, my Bro, and my Dad go finally go to Cooperstown.
by McRipper on Dec 2, 2008 10:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Weak 2010 Ballot
Alomar, Martinez, and Larkin are the only ones I see with a chance of making it. There’s zero chance all three will make it. I would like to see Blyleven and Dawson get elected. 2010 could be the year, if it’s ever going to happen.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 2, 2008 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Reds fans............
…………..love Larkin for the Hall. Of course, many of them think Davy Concepcion should be in the Hall!
Personally, I don’t see it.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 2, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Reds Shortstops
I think it’s something they basically only had two shortstops for 35 years. Concepcion was the best hitting NL shortstop of his time. Larkin was the best with the bat at shortstop in the NL during his career. Concepcion won five Gold Gloves; Larkin won three. Larkin won a MVP. That’s why I think Barry has a shot at the Hall. Concepcion was unquestionably a good shortstop, but I couldn’t quite bring myself to vote for him for the Hall. I would vote for Larkin, but he’s a borderline guy.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 2, 2008 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd put Larkin in over Dawson
He is part of the start of the new breed of shortstop. 2300 hits and MVP as a shortstop. He’s not a slam dunk but I think more qualified due to position than Dawson.
by rlpete on Dec 2, 2008 12:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Larkin is tough and the voters will struggle.
His offensive numbers compare with Trammel, but Larkin’s era was mostly that of Ripken.
If the litmus test is comparing stats to other HOF SS, Banks, Ripken, etc. Larkin falls short. If it strictly comparing other players of the same era, then other players, like Trammel and Santo, warrant equal consideration.
But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night
by N Oakley on Dec 2, 2008 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Dawson was one of my all-time favorite Cubs, but his career OPS is .805, and Larkin’s (as a shortstop) is .815.
by Jody Jody Davis on Dec 2, 2008 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hope Cincy Doesn't Hurt Larkin; Dawson
Even though the Reds won a World Series in 1990 with Larkin, I don’t think he got his due because he played in small market Cincinnati. Dawson is helped by the fact he had his great 1987 and 1990 seasons playing for the big market Cubs, when superstation WGN had over 140 games on a season. Even though Dawson played longer with the Expos, I believe he is best remembered with the Cubs because of the virtual invisibility of Montreal.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 3, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As an aside, I'm really curious to see how the Edgar Martinez vote goes
He was an outstanding career hitter, but he has almost four hundred fewer games in the field than Frank Thomas, even. Was he hitting good enough to be the first true DH inducted? (Molitor is often cited as such, but he still played more than half his games in the field—neither Martinez nor Thomas can say that) I think he could be, but it will be interesting to follow in any case.
by MarchHare on Dec 2, 2008 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone care...
…that if Dawson were elected, he’d go in as an Expo? The players can’t chose what team they go in as.
by northpaw22k on Dec 3, 2008 1:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Nope.
We still remember him as a Cub. Though he had his best years in Montreal, he did win the MVP and go to the postseason with the Cubs. That might influence the Hall’s decision.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 3, 2008 1:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dawson is a Cub
No matter what the cap says. Put him in as a Marlin. for all I care.
He’s a Cub.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Dec 3, 2008 9:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How does he not go in as an Expo?
Rookie of the Year and two 2nd place MVP finishes while in Montreal. He played 10 seasons there as opposed to 6 in Chicago.
Hey, I love the guy too, but he’s going in with Les Expos.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 3, 2008 10:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He might go in as an Expo
but I would expect the Cubs to retire his #8 to honor him as a Cubs Hall-of-Famer.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Dec 3, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dawson: Expo or Cub?
He did finish second in NL MVP voting twice in 1981 and 1983 with Montreal. 1987 was the only time Dawson finished even in the top 10 in MVP voting with the Cubs. I think he would go in as an Expo. Because of knuckleheads like Wade Boggs who had in his contract with the Devil Rays that he would go into the Hall as a Devil Ray, the Hall has taken the choice away from the players. BTW, Boggs ended up going into the Hall as a Red Sox.
The matter would be in the Hall’s hands and out of Dawson’s hands. If I were running things, I would give Hawk the choice between the Expos and Cubs, given he wasn’t getting paid by either franchise for his cap choice. I can understand why the Hall has taken the bull by the horns and made that a non-issue. He had Hall of Fame seasons with both teams.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 3, 2008 3:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wade Boggs
can be blamed for quite a bit in this world. It’s fun, really.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Dec 3, 2008 9:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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