What is Theriot Worth?
by Tate491 on Dec 17, 2008 8:16 PM CST
75 comments
I know the feelings around here are very mixed concerning the value of Ryan Theriot as the Cubs' full time SS. Personally I feel like he played well over his head last year and was still a little below average considering offense, defense, baserunning, etc. Obviously, though, the right people in the Cubs' organization believe in him to some degree. I've been wodering for a while what his trade value might be and I wanted to open up discussion on the topic.
Is this a time to sell high on Theriot and attempt to get something good in return or should we hold on to him in anticipation of continued improvement? Furthermore, do any other teams out there value Theriot as much or more than we do? What types of players could we possibly get and what teams might be interested.
Another question is who would play SS if Theriot is moved? Can Cedeno offer similar production over an entire season? Is Fontenot or Derosa the answer? Could we pick up someone from the FA bargain bin?
All things considered, would it even be worth it to trade Theriot, given the uncertainty of a replacement and backup for the position? I'm of the opinion that we should try to trade Theriot and let Cedeno play only if we could find a team who values hustle, scrappiness and short hops at first enough to overpay for him with either MLB or minor league talent.
I'm not saying we should or shouldn't trade Theriot, but I am curious to other people's opinions on the situation. Thanks.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I just thought he was real quiet.......
For your information, the Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint.
by Less is Walrond on Dec 17, 2008 9:33 PM CST up reply actions
"You sold a dead bird to a blind kid!"
Lloyd: Harry, I took care of it!
Billy: Pretty bird! Pretty Bird! (While gently petting a dead parakeet with it’s head ducktaped back on to his body.)
I spent way too much of my college career watching this movie…and it was worth every second!
You and me both
Greatest Movie Ever to watch under the influence!! I find something new to laugh at every time I watch it.
R U serious???
You would trade a few baseball cards and a sack of marbles…are you out of your mind or just plain dumb?
Just kidding little brother, I got the reference…and I most say the greatest post I’ve read on Bleed Cubbie Blue…it brought a tear to my eye.
by Glen Bishop on Dec 17, 2008 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
Fontenot Fan
I like Fontenot, he has more power and I think he is better a defense then then Theriot or Cedeno. But I like the way Fontenot played when he played last season.
If I was the Cubs I would see what was out there for Theriot, never hurts to look.
My country saved me. My country saved me, and I cannot forget it. And I will fight for her for as long as I draw breath, so help me God." John McCain
Fontenot was tried at SS
It wasn’t pretty
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 18, 2008 9:08 AM CST up reply actions
sorry to say but Ryan the Riot is not a beauty queen either at SS kind of like
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
I like Ryan Theriot
Didn’t used to so much. But he made me a believer in 2008. He sustained a near .390 OBP throughout the season and consistently did the little things with the bat that must be a part of his game. His defense at shortstop also is improving. Is he league average at shortstop? I doubt it. But he is the best we have and certainly hasn’t done anything that screams he should be replaced. Which seems to be the thinking of Hendry given that he doesn’t seem to be scouring the four corners of the earth for Plan B.
by BLou on Dec 17, 2008 8:36 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Maybe he shouldn't be replaced, but
Do you think the Cubs should be shopping him while his value is high? Do you think he’ll continue to put up 2008 numbers? Because if he can’t keep that OBP around .390, I don’t think he will have any value.
Steve Phillips on his computer use as Mets GM, "I played solitaire on my computer in my office."
Since there isn't a replacement for Ryan Theriot lying around that pretty much answers your question
Ronny Cedeno? God no. We’ve seen enough of that act to know he is a utility infielder, and not a very good one at that.
Mike Fontenot? Crikey. Might as well see if Alfonso Soriano can make the conversion to shortstop if we’re going to mess around with the idea of giving Fontenot playing time there.
Mark DeRosa? He stopped being a viable option at the shortstop position several years ago while still in Atlanta. He’s nothing more than an emergency fill in at the position.
Nate Spears
A lefty who plays 2nd and SS and is just waiting in our farm system. A player who many on here and many not on here have said is major league ready.
Derrick Rose-2009 ROTY Tyrus Thomas-2009 MIP...hope I'm at least half right
by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Dec 17, 2008 10:08 PM CST up reply actions
That is pretty much the main reason to not trade him now, I think...
Theriot was a solid player this past year. The question is whether he can repeat that. He’s below average defensively at SS, and his offensive value is entirely based on his OBP. That .387 OBP was fantastic, but it’s way out of line with his career norms. If he even falls back to being a .280 hitter, he becomes below average across the board.
But, as you say, we don’t have a suitable alternative in the organization. I agree that it’s unlikely Cedeno will every get his head on straight enough to be a productive regular. And the rest of our middle infielders are 2B.
Now, if we could manage to find a replacement at SS, I’d be all for moving Theriot. I fear that he’s going to be closer to his 2007 production in 2009 than his 2008. And if he is, then we have a liability at SS. Hopefully I’m wrong on that.
What...
his 19 2B, 4 3B, 1 HR…or my favorite stats…19 GDP, .359 SLG, 93 OPS, 13 CS, and lets not forget the best one of them all (drum roll please)…38 RBI? IF Theroit puts up the numbers next year that he did this year God help us. That OBP (which was good for 8th in the NL) only accounted for 85 Runs (tie for 32nd in NL). My point is this, OBP doesn’t mean shit if you’re not scoring runs. Soriano had almost as many HR’s as Theriot had RBI’s…I know the lead off hitter isn’t there to produce RBI’s but rather Runs…oh wait a minute, Theriot wasn’t our lead off hitter. Ouch, these numbers suck.
by Glen Bishop on Dec 17, 2008 10:44 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah,
because we all know that it’s Ryan’s job to get driven in. Also, Ryan “only” batted first/second in 120 games, and in those games he scored 73 runs. Prorate those runs to the number of games he actually played and he has ninety runs, good for twenty-fourth in the league. For the record, I think runs are a meaningless stat when it comes to evaluating a player, but if you put stock in runs scored then twenty-fourth should count for something.
Prorate...
So now we are prorating his stats. Here is a stat that doesn’t need “prorated”, Soriano lead off almost every game he played in…76 runs…3 more than Ryan’s “prorated” runs in “11” less games actually played, which had Soriano played in as many games as Theriot Soriano would have scored more Runs than Ryan…making Theriot fifth on the Cubs for Runs Scored. And might I also add that Fukudome scored 79 runs while recording 79 less at bats than Theriot…therefore moving Theroit down to 6th on the Cubs…I could go on but you get my point
I agree with you that Runs are a horrible measure (unfortunately Ryan doesn’t have a lot of good stats to talk about though)…but read the guys post that i replied to and you may understand my position a little more. A better argument could have been that Lee probably doubled up Theriot 20 times hence hurting his ability to score more runs (I also believe that Ryan’s ability to get caught while stealing hurt his numbers too)
He asks “Do you think he’ll continue to put up 2008 numbers? Because if he can’t keep that OBP around .390, I don’t think he will have any value.”
And for God’s sake, please don’t throw a prorated stat as a measure of relevance…and for the record, 24th shouldn’t count for anything when you play for a team with the highest R/PG and your fourth on your on team in Runs scored while batting first/second
by Glen Bishop on Dec 18, 2008 12:18 AM CST up reply actions
I don't get your point.
For starters, you brought up the fact that he wasn’t scoring enough runs, and the fact is that if he stayed in the two hole all year long he would have been one of the top twenty-five run-scorers in the league. I don’t see why prorating that stat is a problem. Explain away.
Why are you comparing Theriot to other hitters on the Cubs? So what if he isn’t as good as our left fielder, right fielder, first baseman or third baseman. Theriot is a shortstop, and as long as he’s adequate defensively, he can be an OBP-type player with little-to-no power. Let me put it simply. In 08, the season in which you called him horrific offensively, he was tenth among all shortstops in VORP, and while he was only 18th in VORPr, durability does count for something. If he maintains his LD and BB rate there is no reason he can’t be the same player next year.
Cuz...
I didn’t bring up the fact that he wasn’t scoring enough runs I was simply pointing out that he should have scored more runs with such a high OBP. 85 runs is a respectable number. You pointed out to me that there were only 29 games he didn’t hit first/second.
And I’m not comparing him to other cub hitters…I’m comparing your prorated stats to Soriano’s real stats. And yes, you guessed it, prorating the stat is a problem because IT’S NOT REAL…If we prorated Andrew Dawson’s stats he’d be where he belongs…in the HOF.
by Glen Bishop on Dec 18, 2008 12:53 AM CST up reply actions
You're comparing a guy who makes $400,000 to a guy that makes $16 million
That makes sense.
by dr stabbingworth on Dec 18, 2008 8:37 AM CST up reply actions
Hey, if salary gets to be included then
Soriano is a much better value when comparing cost per home run. ;)
$400-$500,000 (Soriano) versus unlimited (Gathright).
It's all very simple.
The fact that Ryan didn’t bat either first or second is not his fault, it was Lou’s decision. AO if you take the AB’s he got further down in the order and apply his runs scored rate in the games in which he did bat first or second, then you get his runs scored number if Lou left him there. It’s pretty clear, and it does make sense to use that type of equation.
and as long as he’s adequate defensively
And there’s the rub.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Dec 18, 2008 1:37 PM CST up reply actions
How many more games did Theriot play in than Soriano this year?
Steve Phillips on his computer use as Mets GM, "I played solitaire on my computer in my office."
Sorry...
Scratch the sentence “my point is this…”. Ryan is scoring runs, I’d just like him to stay on base when he gets on base…his combination of CS and being doubled up probably cost him 5-10 more runs. I still stand behind his numbers sucking though. Just my opinion.
Theriot would be great as a second baseman
but unfortunately he’s our best option as SS b/c Cedeno hasnt proved he can hack it at the plate in full time duty
I bet he has some trade value as a second baseman
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
I've gone on record numerous times
expressing my disdain for Ryan Theriot, but I’m coming around on him a little bit. I’m a stat guy, and while most defensive stats aren’t very useful, UZR is considered a leading defensive indicator and it has Ryan as a roughly league average shortstop defensively. His wOBA was a mediocre .338, and while it should go down a bit next year, it should be pretty close to that figure. Would I look to upgrade the position? Absolutely, but I guess the Cubs aren’t as bad at SS as I thought.
LOL
…a roughly league average shortstop defensively. You are a stat guy and this is what you throw us???? What a great combination, he’s roughly a league average defender and horrific offensively…what’s the UZR on Izturis stat man?
by Glen Bishop on Dec 17, 2008 10:48 PM CST up reply actions
Excuse me.
What in the hell are you talking about? Instead of shooting down a perfectly sensible comment, give me some of your evaluation, if in fact you even have anything of value to say.
In all of his games at SS in 08, he had a UZR of -0.4, meaning he was only four tenths of a run below the average shortstop. So yes, he was roughly league average with the glove.
In terms of his offense, I don’t see how you can say he was horrific offensively. Sure, he hit for no power, but he hit for a high average and had a very respectable walk rate which helped give him a TEAM HIGH .387 OBP. He wasn’t Hanley Ramirez, but he wasn’t terrible either.
You are fairly rude for someone with no counter-point.
Ok...
You are accusing me of being rude (and I’m taking a stab in the dark here but when you say “rude” I’m assuming you are meaning “offensive in manner”). I apologize that I find your comment funny about Theriot’s glove being average…it’s not being rude, I just find it funny that’s all. I will agree with you that my comment, “You are a stat guy and this is what you throw us????” was rude and I apologize, however, throwing a stat about someone that solidifies our view of Theriot as being an average fielder is ignorant (def; lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified) maybe you misremembered the post. I applaud you on your stats…I’m ignorant to what in the hell UZR is, and if you say it’s a good measuring tool than I belive you (hence the reason I didn’t make a counter-point…I did’nt want to look ignorant). and yes…he did hit for a good average and a very respectable walk rate…but that’s about it.
by Glen Bishop on Dec 18, 2008 12:42 AM CST up reply actions
I could count
the number of people on this site who view Theriot as an adequate fielder on one hand. It has become common knowledge on this site that Ryan is well below average defensively, and me pointing out that he is an adequate defender is actually something of a plus when it comes to Ryan. So as to your point, no, me pointing out that he is adequate with the glove is NOT pointing out the obvious. In fact, you pointed out on another thread that DeRosa would be a better option than Theriot at SS if Roberts is acquired, and you stated “It’s not like we lose a lot defensively.” Clearly, you believe Ryan to below average defensively, or it would make no sense to say that DeRosa is virtually the same type of defender.
You crack me up...
Adequate: sufficient for a specific requirement.
…for those of you who don’t know
Sufficient: enough to meet the needs of a situation or proposed end.
I think we can all agree that “adequate” means average…I don’t see any comment on this site where I or someone else views Theriot “below average”. I view Theriot as adequate…as I assume everyone else does on this site. I think you need to read my comments a little more thoroughly…I said, as you pointed out, "It’s not like we lose a lot defensively" by moving DeRosa to SS. Correct?? Doesn’t that imply that Theriot is slightly better?? Now, just so you know, If I had said, “It’s not like we lose anything defensively”. Then that would imply that I view DeRosa as a better or equal replacement for Theriot.
Look I am so annoyed with dealing with your ignorance about this that I can’t help myself but to continue proving my point that you actually do for me. If you want to throw out all these stupid stats like VORP or YORP or ORK or UZR or whatever the hell else you point out, then have at it. But please read my comments more thoroughly.
For what it's worth...
I’ve learned more in two nights about stats that i never knew existed. dakoose…I’m not making fun of you or trying to be a dick…but sometimes we can’t look just at stats as a way to measure players…
When It comes down to it, there isn’t one Cub fan out there that wouldn’t like to upgrade both the D and O at SS. While Theriot is adequate at SS, I view him as below adequate hitter with and without stats. I’ve always viewed SS as a position of two possibilities, you are either a great hitter with adequate D…or an adequate hitter with great D. Sadly, Theriot doesn’t fit into either of these possibilities.
Glen,
Check back to this older fanpost for a poll and some discussion on Theriot. For much of the past year, there has been a general agreement that Theriot’s defense is somewhere between average to poor to very, very bad. It seems to me that more people believe him to be below average than average and some believe his defense to be an abomination that causes desolation.
Not all people come to this conclusion based on stats. As I watch Ryan Theriot play SS, he reminds me of late-career Ron Cey, diving and missing a lot of balls better defenders could get standing up. Of course, I’m not trained to scout these things and recognize my limitations here.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Thanks...
Thanks for clarifying for me how the Cub fans view Ryan…as I am new to the site and just assumed everyone thought Ryan was adequate…as bad as I think he is offensively…I always thought he was average defensively…not good enough to help us win games but not bad enough to make us lose games either. Thanks again…Ron Cey, haven’t heard that name in at least 20 years….
So you see,
a large portion, dare I say the majority, of people on this site believe that he is a bad defender. And let me explain my logic on the DeRosa comment. By you saying we don’t lose a lot, I inferred that you meant we lose very little, meaning that DeRosa is only a tad bit worse than Theriot. Seeing how DeRosa wouldn’t be even a league average defensive shortstop, that makes Ryan below average as well.
ahhh Glen
You just assumed that everyone would agree with you? Are annoyed by someone else ignorance.
Thanks for the laugh this morning.
by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 19, 2008 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not fully knowledgable as to why,
but UZR is considered the better statistic. I’ll look into it a bit.
Let me know what you find.
I thought RZR was somewhat of the premier statistic, but I know nothing conclusively.
Free Ronny Cedeno
Judging from the name,
“Ultimate Zone Rating” seems to be a beefed up version of RZR. For an in-depth look at UZR, check this out.
ZR is the original STATS, Inc. zone rating. RZR is based upon BIS ball data, which has smaller zones. UZR considers each zone seperately, and has other adjustments (like park factors, batter handedness adjustments, etc.) Fangraphs UZR uses the same BIS data as RZR, so when the two conflict I’d say UZR is the one to go with.
Cwyers, you were one of the great Theriot defense detractors this past year.
Where do you stand now, given your preference to UZR, but UZR’s rating of Theriot as essentially league average?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
UZR and RZR have the exact same inputs. (At least, the UZR on Fangraphs.) UZR handles them better. So I really see no reason to believe RZR at this point; I’ve been using RZR simply because until recently we didn’t have UZR.
For what it’s worth, my own zone rating metric – which has yet to be published, and is still in the draft stages – has Theriot at +3. I don’t know how much weight I’d put on that – as I said, I’m still working on CZR and so that’s subject to change as I make refinements. But CZR is very conceptually similar to UZR so I think I understand where it’s coming from here.
Does that mean you now see Theriot
as an average SS defensively?
I also thought I remembered your metric rating Theriot very low – did he get better as the season progressed?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
I’ve never had my own defensive metric (until now) – just conversions of RZR to +/- format.
As far as I can tell (based upon the latest info I have), yeah, Theriot graded out as a roughly average shortstop in 2008. Just looking at a typical shortstop aging curve and you’d expect to see him decline for next season, but by how much I couldn’t say for right now.
Thanks for clearing that up.
By the way, Fangraphs is fantastic. I love that site.
RIOT'S VALUE ???
They have no one else on the roster to step up and be the day to day ss. Cedeno is not going to get any better at the plate …..Unless I am blind and missing something …..
Cedeno vs Theriot
How much does Theriot have to regress before he’s Cedeno’s equal at the plate? We know who’s better in the field. When will Cedeno + whatever Theriot could net in a trade > Theriot?
Steve Phillips on his computer use as Mets GM, "I played solitaire on my computer in my office."
If you want a real kick
compare Cedeno’s splits v. RHP to Theriot’s v. RHP.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
in 2008.
(I don’t know what they are previous….)
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Oh I've seen it
Talk about an unorthodox platoon…
Steve Phillips on his computer use as Mets GM, "I played solitaire on my computer in my office."
I think a lot of people are surprised to see that
against right-handed pitchers, the main difference between the 2008 offensive seasons of Ryan Theriot and Ronny Cedeno boiled down, not to their bats, which were pretty close, but to Ronny not making as many mistakes running the bases.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
I'm all for selling high on Ryan Theriot.
I just don’t know if there is a buyer.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Think of how many teams have signed or traded for David Eckstein.
You might find a buyer there.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
David Eckstein...
Baseball’s version of the Holiday Fruitcake.
Looks good on paper, but in reality it’s just better to re-gift.
Nothing like a big can of worms just in time for Christmas...
…..and I was just recovering from this season’s game threads. :)
Whoever said you can't mix business with pleasure never owned a PuttPutt course---Andy Bernard
I'd be willing to trade him
but I don’t think you’ll get much in return and who will play SS if he is gone? I’m not sold on any internal options. I’m a big fan of Fontenot and even last spring said I liked him better than Theriot however I don’t see him as a SS. I’m not sure DeRosa could move back full-time either.
Of all the SS on our roster....he's not one of them.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 18, 2008 10:33 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Well stated
Articulate and to the point.
Steve Phillips on his computer use as Mets GM, "I played solitaire on my computer in my office."
problem is
we don’t need any used balls, and all the infield rakes got replaced at the beginning of the off-season.
I exaggerate. A little.
I’d love to see him gone, but SOMEONE has to play the position. It will be interesting to see if Cedeno gets another shot in spring training.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
I'll be shocked if he does...
I honestly don’t think that (a) Piniella has any inclination to give Cedeno another shot, or that (b) Piniella has any inclination to NOT hand the job back to Theriot next year. It’s hard to tell a guy who had a .387 OBP last year as the everyday SS that he’s got to win the job again.
Granted, I don’t think Theriot’s going to repeat that 2008 performance at the plate. But I don’t think Piniella is inclined to gamble that Cedeno (whom he doesn’t like) will outperform Theriot (whom he does like). I won’t be anticipating a battle there.
More importantly
when Cedeno was outplaying Theriot for the first 6 weeks of the season, Lou benched Cedeno more; quite the opposite of giving Cedeno more chances. Some people even think this is a good thing- why waste a chance on a guy who has a precious slim hold on his three remaining brain cells, right?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
he needs those cells
to use the shovel to move the sand.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Dec 19, 2008 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
GOTTA AGREE.........
Lou is not going to change anything at SS …..Unless THERIOT gets hurt he is the every day shortstop .
Very little.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 22, 2008 9:10 AM CST reply actions
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