Thursday Discussion Topic: Nate McLouth

McLouth

I’d be very intrigued with adding McLouth’s bat (his glove, unless I’m forgetting the numbers, is actually quite poor in CF, enough that, if I remember it correctly, that I’d rather have the Kosuke/Reed platoon in CF with Mclouth in RF – and McLouth’s arm wouldn’t be good in RF either). That said, at the right price, sure, I’d listen. Pittsburgh, unless I’m mistaken, controls him for 3 more years, though, and considering Huntington is trying to retool that farm system at the same time, if he deals McLouth, I think he’d want a hefty return, a return I’m not sure we can afford. Keep in mind that earlier this offseason there were rumors that they wanted Robinson Cano and more for McLouth.

It’s a nice idea, and at the right price, sure, I’d be intrigued.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 9:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

gold glove??

Quite poor in CF?? Didn’t he win a Gold Glove last season?? I know a lot of people were upset claiming he wasn’t that good because some made up stats said so, but the eyes don’t decieve like numbers do. This dude is good, really good actually. I drafted him last season in a fantasy league as a back-up and my buddy razzed me so much about how he was garbage so I dropped him and he went on to have a great season…on someone else’s team. I’m not saying he’s the next Griffey, but at only 27 and having the year he did last season, he’s definitely worth a few players. I’d give up what we were going to give up for Peavy (minus Dero) for him. He fills a bunch of holes this team has. Along the lines of the made-up stats…I bought a book awhile ago, Baseball Inside the Numbers, I couldn’t hardly get through the first few chapters. It’s complete garbage. Basically a bunch of nerds trying to win arguments by using made up stats and crunching irrelavent numbers together. I’m sorry, but I think I can make my own estimations of a players worth without having to solve algebra. According to those people guys like Theriot and McLouth are bad and clutch doesn’t exist and oh, by the way, RBIs are worthless, not to mention a batting order has nothing to do with an offenses success…get real. Get McLouth and we’ll win 110 games.

by Lows05 on Dec 18, 2008 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

couple comments

first, i’m a bit confused by your argument. your argument for why he deserves a gold glove is that … he was a good offensive player? i mean … that’s how your post goes (mclouth deserves gold glove in the first 3 sentences, mclouth is a good offensive player for the bulk of the post – the fantasy arguments, and then a few lines on how clutch he is offensively). I’m not arguing mclouth’s offense. I actually buy that he’s a fairly solid offensive player coming into his own who might get better. What I am arguing against is his defensive ability. As noted in my original post, I’d be curious, depending on the price, which I think will be quite high, although I would prefer him in RF with the Reed/Kosuke combo in CF if we could somehow land him.

2nd, all statistics have value. that is, well, a fact. it is how you interpret them that matter. After all, all statistics are a snapshot of something. whether you buy the legitimacy of said snapshot as a factor is the issue at hand. when almost all the statistics consistently point to a player being quite underwhelming defensively in a position, as mclouth was in cf,, well, it tends to give a fairly clear and consistent snapshot.

That said, i’m not the one to argue defensive metrics as i’m a latecomer to even trying to learn about baseball statistics. cwyers would be better, and rob neyer had an article blasting the mclouth gold glove. I think John Dewan had something as well, although my memory is slipping me. that said, most people tend to acknowledge that, gold gloves, in this day and age, are based on popularity.What I know is that, everytime I watched McLouth (and with mlbtv, i saw him plenty more than i normally would), i didn’t see an elite cf, as a gold glove would seemingly justify. His arm strength is average. McLouth’s biggest issue in CF is that he gets poor reads on occasion. That said, it was his first year as a starter, so who knows. It is worth noting, though, that unless my memory is failing me, no one projected him as a CF coming up (and it is worth noting that if he stays in Pittsburgh, he’s not likely to be in CF), which is something to focus on in regards to how things may develop. That said, there are late bloomers, although it is hard to imagine that his defensive ability will substantially improve in the coming months.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd like to recommend this post for its pure, unadulterated absurdity.

Bravo, sir. Bravo.

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by dat cubfan daver on Dec 18, 2008 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

maybe you should re-read...

I never one time mentioned his offense as reason for his gold glove…actually idiots do that. Gold Glove is a defensive award, not offensive. What I’m saying is, he can’t hardly be considered a liability in CF. I was being sarcastic toward the end of my post too by the way…I’m basically blasting the penic pushing nerds at Baseball Prospectus. Stats do not portray a players worth…CPUs and math leave a lot out of the whole baseball equation. Maybe you should check it out and you’ll know what I’m talking about…Baseball Between the Numbers…sorry I said “Inside” earlier, meant “Between”. It’s a terrible read…I love Mark Grace, favorite Cub, but they say he’s the best clutch hitter of all time………..seriously?!………

by Lows05 on Dec 18, 2008 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

110 games, though?

McLouth, if acquired, wouldn’t win 13 more games for this team.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 18, 2008 11:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

again...

I said we’d win 110 last year, it’s kind of my way of saying we’ll be REALLY good. 110, probably not. i’m just saying, you get him into the leadoff spot, a real CF, he’s got pop and speed. Most importantly, it gets Alf out of the lead-off spot. I like him a lot more than other options out there. I even jokingly said we should trade for him at the end of the season and my buddy was like, “no way the Pirates do that again.” I don’t see it happening, but it would be great. I don’t understand where toonsterwu got any of his points from my post though….seriously?? I never said HE was clutch…what the hell. I was making a point about his defense…won a gold glove, then made a point that he is a solid player offensively, which was my fantasy statement…but yea…learn to read

by Lows05 on Dec 18, 2008 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No, you didn't.

You said, and I quote, “Get McLouth and we’ll win 110 games.”

We’ll = We will. Future tense.

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by dat cubfan daver on Dec 18, 2008 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

hah...

pencil pushing…not penic?

by Lows05 on Dec 18, 2008 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL, I'll "check it out." Thanks.

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by dat cubfan daver on Dec 18, 2008 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

hmmm...

I get the feeling you’re arguing just to argue. It IS hard to understand at times what people mean by merely reading a post. So, let me try this again……and yes, very good, you understand grammar. I probably should have said it more clearly. I said last season, at the beginning of the year, before game 1 of the 2008 regular season that we would win 110 games…..meaning I thought we were pretty good but at the same time I was exaggerating the number a bit to be funny. That is where the “I said we’d win 110 last year, it’s kind of my way of saying we’ll be REALLY good.”, came from. Again, earlier I said with him (Nate McLouth) we would win 110 games……in the same fashion. Do I really that he’s a +13 difference to last year’s team?? hah, no…but if you’re going to take every little word litteraly my posts are going to be forever long. I was just assuming you would understand the humor, sarcasm, and meaning of my post…but you know what happens when you assume. And yes, you should check it out, it even says in the title, “why everything you know about baseball is wrong.” so I know a lot about baseball, decided to read it…it’s terrible. Maybe some of you will like the idea of number crunching, I personally don’t. I take the numbers for what they mean and interpret them into how that player helped the team in a positive way. You could look up and down the Cubs line-up from last season and see guys with good numbers offensively, but I don’t feel they were hitting in the right part of the order. I’m not the manager, but I think we can all agree that the 62 HRs that Soriano has hit for us the past 2 seasons could have been better utilized. Also Lee had another “off” year…(sorry but 2005 wasn’t the real DLee…) but you can’t say his numbers were terrible. He hit .290 with 20 HRs, but he wasn’t a great 3 hitter. I mean…he grounded into 27 DPs, I don’t really care where you hit, thats bad, but as a 3 hitter, it didn’t do much to set the table for our best RBI and clutch hitter in ARam. Point being, we get a guy like McLouth to shake up the order a bit. And again, I really doubt the trade will even happen, but it’s cool to think about…
McLouth
Theriot
Soriano
ARam
Lee
Soto
Derosa
Fuku/Johnson

Much better line-up in my opinion. Yea, Alf strikes out a ton, but thats a lot better than DPs. Don’t give me the “he can’t hit in that spot” crap either. Outside of the first inning, it doesn’t matter he’s hitting lead-off. He may come up 2nd, or 3rd in an inning later in the game. I don’t see how he can honestly feel “more comfortable” there. He doesn’t get of base via the walk or steal a base and create runs that way, he swings for the fence…every time. I really hope we get a sure thing lead-off guy so Lou can’t make excuses to not move him. We won 97 games, sure, but if our goal is to win the regular season and get to the playoffs every year thats fine, but if we want to compete for a WS ring, we need to have guys in the right order and guys that can hit good, top of the rotation guys…not just shitty Pirate lefties…

by Lows05 on Dec 18, 2008 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

what would be really neat...

is if DLee was a lefty…then some of those ground balls he hit wouldn’t have been DPs because the first basemen would have been holding on the runner opening the hole a bit more…and we could keep him hitting 3rd sandwiched between two righties…geeez, that’d be nice.

by Lows05 on Dec 18, 2008 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Also, if DLee had X-ray vision.

Also, if DLee had a talking bat sidekick.
Also, if left field had a forcefield around it.

"Thank god I threw out my belt & shoelaces."-Bernies Mustache Wax on Evil BCB, 7/31/08

by Bildo1805 on Dec 18, 2008 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What'd be really neat

is that if my grandma had wheels… she’d be a bicycle.

One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.

by chilango2 on Dec 18, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Then you and your friends would take turns riding her?

Sorry, couldn’t resist. ;-)

by Flatley on Dec 18, 2008 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow.

Like I said, thanks. No, really, thanks.

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by dat cubfan daver on Dec 18, 2008 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

what

Stats do not portray a players worth…CPUs and math leave a lot out of the whole baseball equation. Maybe you should check it out and you’ll know what I’m talking about…

what

by Wreckard on Dec 18, 2008 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just say thanks and walk away.

I guess Christmas vacation starts early at some schools.

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by dat cubfan daver on Dec 18, 2008 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

no, I'll explain...

if you watched every game of the year…every game, would you need to see numbers to justify an argument over who you thought was good or not?? I’d hope not. What I’m saying is a lot of baseball is lost in translation through stats and stat-heads…numbers aren’t everything. Reed Johnson did awesome for us last year, so did Jimmy Edmonds…neither of those dudes had awesome stats…even guys like Fukudome, who’s numbers ended up being crap by the end of the year helped us win ball games and helped the offense gain an identity. Obviously guys like “dat cubfan daver” can’t judge talent. He is one of those people who needs stats or something. He can’t hardly read through a post with any intelligence, how the hell could he watch a baseball game and determine who’s good or not without someone holding his hand and barfing stats and information in his face. I was also joking about the DLee being lefty thing. I’m sorry some of you are so serious you can’t figure that out.

by Lows05 on Dec 18, 2008 2:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

Obviously guys like "dat cubfan daver" can’t judge talent. He is one of those people who needs stats or something.

Oh, I need something alright. A Jack and Coke would be a start.

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by dat cubfan daver on Dec 18, 2008 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ha, I always thought you would be a gin and tonic type of guy.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 18, 2008 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

how about a blueberry muffin? got some in the freezer

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Dec 18, 2008 3:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You saw me stealing some...

…from the Edmonds Fan Club meetings, didn’t you?

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by dat cubfan daver on Dec 18, 2008 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

every game, would you need to see numbers to justify an argument over who you thought was good or not??

Yes you would. Personal anecdotes don’t really settle arguments when there’s objective evidence you can use instead.

by Wreckard on Dec 18, 2008 6:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

how is he not a liability in Cf

First off, read your own post, the beginning. no where in there do you give any sort of argument on why he isn’t a liability in cf and deserves the gold glove. the only thing that might come close is your first comment on winning a gold glove, but unless you argument is that winning a gold glove justifies winning a gold glove … well you see where the flaw would be.

anyhow, what is your justification that he deserved said gold glove and isn’t a liability in cf. again, i’m not arguing his bat wouldn’t be a nice fit. as noted, i’ve said i’m okay with him in cf. yet, you want to argue that his defense isn’t a liability in cf. okay, so i’ll offer

a) defensive metrics don’t back that up.
b) Okay, you don’t buy defensive metrics. I’ll go with anecdotal. does he

i) Have a plus arm? My answer? No.
ii) Does he make good reads? Not from what I’ve seen.
iii) does he take good routes? eh.

Again, this discussion is on his defense, as you specifically picked at that point in my post. So … what is your justification that he “can’t hardly be considered a liability in cf”? Unless your argument is that his offense offsets his defense, which you don’t really argue and would be totally besides the point.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 3:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

mistake, 2nd pgh, 3rd sentence

*as noted, I’d be fine with starting him. i’d have reed/kosuke in cf with nate in rf.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

+5000

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Dec 18, 2008 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He'd be a godd addition

True center fielder, and the lefty bat. It would probably take a package of young talent,a nd the Pirates need pitching. Would you go Sean Marshall and Rich Hill for him?

Cubs Win!! Cubs Win!

by Ihatethecards on Dec 18, 2008 9:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Would WE?

I’m sure we would. Would they? I’m sure they wouldn’t.

by Flatley on Dec 18, 2008 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Rich Hill probably has

NO value whatsoever.

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Dec 18, 2008 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe less

by gocubsgo22 on Dec 18, 2008 11:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

wait, if what you say about Rich is true

.. then he’ll fit right into the Cubs long term strategem ..

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Dec 18, 2008 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No

They can have Hill, they seem to like overblown lefties, but Marshall, NO.
I think he has a great deal more potential for the cubs than even an average CF with a good bat.
Outfielders are much easier to come by than good, versatile lefties.

by chrisw95 on Dec 18, 2008 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely a better option

than somebody with a history of injuries and behavior issues (think Bradley). This guy still has alot of upside potential and has poven to be able to hit major league pitching. At least he really hits our pitching well.

by billybuck on Dec 18, 2008 9:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think you'd need more than that....

but of all of the options we have discussed, this would rank #1 in my opinion. I’d think it would start with Pie to replace him, and then who knows. I hate to give up Marshall, but it might be necessary in a deal such as this.

What about Harden/Pie for McLouth/Someone (not real up to date on the Pirates roster) and then we sign RJ?

…and I don’t know who and the hell would want Rich Hill at this point.

by jbertram on Dec 18, 2008 9:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Harden doesn't bolster their farm system.

Neither does Pie.

by Flatley on Dec 18, 2008 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't think I'd favor sending Harden to Pitt,

but maybe Marquis (eating3-4 mil) with Pie would work.

by billybuck on Dec 18, 2008 9:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

They won't want Harden or Marquis

They will not give up someone they control for three years for someone they get for one year.

by gocubsgo22 on Dec 18, 2008 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

They have a future CF

in Andrew McCutchen. He’ll get a shot first, so I’m not sure they’d have interest in Pie. McLouth’s glove is average at best in CF (it’s why so many people thought it was ridiculous that he got a Gold Glove, further evidence of how ridiculous Gold Gloves can be), and hence why the Pirates were planning to shift him to a corner spot perhaps as soon as this year, if McCutchen was ready, or in 2010.

As for the Pirates, I think they’d want cost-controlled upside. Positionally, they have options at the corners with the LaRoche boys and Alvarez. I like some of their MI’s like Brian Friday and Negrych potentially at 2nd, but they could use some depth there perhaps. Some Of depth is a thought (if they deal McLouth, that would leave McCutchen, Morgan, Moss, Pearce) but it would be more of a corner OF need (one possibility would be to shift Andy LaRoche to the OF to open 3rd for Alvarez). The main thing they need is pitching. Maholm’s their best arm, and well, he’s really not all that good.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 10:00 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs

forgot about Tabata

who would certainly be in the OF mix, so actually, they might not be that pressed for OF’s. Walker could also be in the OF mix.

Probably would focus on pitching, maybe a shortstop to push Friday/Bixler plus the picks this past year. That’d be my guess. Of course, they’d probably take top talent in general.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 10:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Rec'ing these last two

This is the problem – we don’t match up that well with the Pirates, unless they really like Pie and are willing to over-crowd their OF.

Maybe Theriot would interest them, as you start to suggest by pointing to SS, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if Huntington wants to keep a solid defense behind his pitchers.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Dec 18, 2008 1:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think they'd have interest in Cedeno

but his value isn’t necessarily high. They’ll want arms, any arms, IMO, as the cupboard there is pretty baren.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Trey2317 on Dec 19, 2008 8:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

this would make a poor offseason great

this guy seemed to stroke a line drive every time i saw him play. the power seems legit and i think there’s potential for more. fast, lefty, perfect for us. go get him!

bring up felix.

by kylejo on Dec 18, 2008 9:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

yeah, but

he won’t be facing Cubs pitchers in the post if he’s actually a Cub.

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on Dec 18, 2008 3:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This would kill the Pirates broadcasters

They sound so depressed whenever Aramis comes to the plate.

"Who's Bob Brenly? The guy that used to be the manager for Arizona?" ~ Alfonso Guilleard Soriano

by JohnM on Dec 18, 2008 9:52 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yea imagine

Ramirez and McLouth being the 3/4 hitters in our lineup ….. lol… poor pirates .. however McLouth could bat in the leadoff spot or be a 2 hitter.

by dlee25 on Dec 18, 2008 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This thought almost brought a tear to my eye

Please, Santy Claus, make it happen.

One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.

by chilango2 on Dec 18, 2008 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it did for me .. the question is, who will we give up?

i dont see the Buckos moving him without some warm bodies and cash in the deal.

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Dec 18, 2008 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

package?

what would be realistic? start with Pie, add Marshall…but what after that?

bring up felix.

by kylejo on Dec 18, 2008 9:53 AM CST reply actions 1 recs

Plus, how many times can...

…Hendry fleece the Pirates for quality players until someone, anyone, in that organization gets suspicious? ;) – TL

[In 2008] Kila Ka’aihue had the best on-base percentage of any hitter in the minor leagues. - Joe Posnanski, 11/9/2008 ... Ergo, let's give him a shot at first base in KC in 2009.

by timlacy on Dec 18, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Unfortunately

the “fleecee” is now receiving paychecks from the Cubs. Which you could argue, Dave Littlefield has been doing since he was GM of the Pirates.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Trey2317 on Dec 19, 2008 8:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

DeRosa...

… to wherever and ship the prospects to Pitt

by dmlichte on Dec 18, 2008 10:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Now, it's making sense.

Or Pie to Baltimore… basically use all of Towers’ 3-way leg-work for us to get McLouth instead of Peavy.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Dec 18, 2008 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

McLouth is similar to A. Ramirez and Cabrera

Pirates are in the following situation;

’08 (67), ’07 (68), ’06 (67), ’05 (67), ’04 (72), ’03 (75), ’02 (72), ’01 (62), ’00 (69), ’99 (78), ’98 (69), ’97 (79), ’96 (73), ’95 (58), ’94 (53*), ’93 (75), ’92 (96)~Finished first in the division.

OR

18 straight season with a losing record…..averaging less than 67 wins a year through a generation since Bonds and Bonilla. As old timer Cub fans know a generation of last place simply bestows more losing seasons. McLouth is not by himself going to turn the Pirates around—-but he could offer the Pirates two things——a pathway to multiple talented players and pathway to use limited financial resources to create this.

McLouth needs to be traded as soon as possible. What do the Cubs have to offer besides Bobby Hill?

My guess it is as close to what they were offering for Peavy; Pie (replaces the CF spot with a future to develop talent), Pirates have traded their SS so Cedeno would come in as a spare part. The end would be Castillo a top catcher and possibly Veal another flyer.

This is not a high cost for Pie now is a spare part (although if none are found for CF he could be the player not traded and now coveted, it is what people thought of Sosa until he hit 30 HR’s). McLouth would be a very good addition though and hold down CF like Rick Monday for a few years.

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Dec 18, 2008 9:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

But..

Veal is gone, if I’m not mistaken, I think it was the Pirates who picked him up the the rule 5. Although I may be wrong. But I’m sure he was taken.

by chrisw95 on Dec 18, 2008 9:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yes...

… but an incentive is that the Cubs could trade the rights to Veal to the Pirates. This way the Pirates could just ultimately send Veal down and not have to offer him back to the Cubs. You’ll see that there are times when a player taken in the draft doesn’t make the major league roster of the team drafting the player and a trade is worked out so that team can keep the player and send him down.

by dmlichte on Dec 18, 2008 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He Would Have To Pass Through Waivers, Though...

My 2008 Christmas wish list includes this jersey. In Hendry We Trust!

by initram on Dec 18, 2008 4:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just FYI, Veal is already a Pirate.

They selected him in the Rule 5 Draft.

McClouth is perhaps the Pirates best player, and it would take quite a deal to get him. Probably Pie, Marshall and Cedeno, and perhaps a few spare parts, IMHO…

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Dec 18, 2008 9:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

my guess at a package

Keep in mind that he is cost-controlled for 3 more years. That’s a huge factor, and hence why they were demanding the moon. I don’t believe that their price would have dropped significantly. My guess at a package that gets them to the negotiations table:

Josh Vitters (the upside piece), Angel Guzman (for their pen), Ronny Cedeno (stopgap shortstop), and, say, Sean Marshall. Even then, I’m not completely sold that would be enough for them to listen.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 10:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Vitters, Marshall, Cedeno, and Pie

Sell the farm for this guy. If I had a tractor I’d let the Cubs throw that in as well.

Formerly NO100

by jerry morales rules on Dec 18, 2008 10:01 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I would

see that being more a of a haul for Sizemore than McClouth. I think a little more would get that done, bit only IF Sizemore were on the block. I’m not sold on McCouth being the answer to all of our OF issues.

by chrisw95 on Dec 18, 2008 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think that would get Sizemore...He is one of the top CF's in the game...

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Dec 18, 2008 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No, I know we won't

but I think Vitters, with the proper health and training, is not worth throwing away for a defensively challenged CF. And it was stated that the Pirates need pitching, that we could send them without giving up Vitters or Marshall.
Unless of course, they were being advised by Kevin Towers, then every move would be in the papers, and he would want us th throw in Sandberg for good measure.

by chrisw95 on Dec 18, 2008 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Pirates have a stud 3B coming up

Pedro Alavarez, making it somewhat less likely theyd take Vitters when they can probably get better prospects from other teams.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 18, 2008 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well

if they dealt with us, they’d want top talent. and there are possibilities for vitters. some don’t buy alvarez at 3rd, but i buy it enough. that said, they could use a slugging first base prospect as adam laroche will eventually move on. maybe andy moves there, although 2nd or the OF are options. Vitters could also move to the OF there. They need more pop in the system, so they can find a role for Vitters.

i’m not suggesting giving up vitters, but rather, that i think they would put fairly solid value on adding vitters.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I still believe in Andy

and I expect the Pirates do, too, if they gave up Bay to get him.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Dec 18, 2008 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Andy LaRoche and Walker

will get to battle it out for 3B in spring training. However, they just signed Ramon Vazquez to a 2-year deal, so I suspect he’ll be starting at third by June.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Trey2317 on Dec 19, 2008 8:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

some dont buy Vitters at third either

I dont see us matching up with them on this one anyhow

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 18, 2008 4:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I completley agree

The pirates would want A LOT in return for McLouth expecially if they are dealing in the division but he is exactly what the doctor ordered from our standpoint. Left handed power bat that can play solid defense in CF or RF. We could have him hit leadoff or put him in the middle of the order… Or a number 2 hitter.

He would give us a lot of options but I dont see the pirates trading him to us. That being said, it doesnt mean we shouldnt try.

by dlee25 on Dec 18, 2008 10:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Probably a...

…lawnmower could seal the deal—-a Cub Cadet (hah!). – TL

[In 2008] Kila Ka’aihue had the best on-base percentage of any hitter in the minor leagues. - Joe Posnanski, 11/9/2008 ... Ergo, let's give him a shot at first base in KC in 2009.

by timlacy on Dec 18, 2008 10:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's Close To What We Were Offering...

…for Peavy, sans Marshall.

My 2008 Christmas wish list includes this jersey. In Hendry We Trust!

by initram on Dec 18, 2008 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nate would be Great

I love trading with the Pirates- they have no stomach for paying good players.
Milton ‘the game’ Bradley would be an absolute stinker in the OF for the Cubs. He cant stay healthy and belongs in the AL. He would probably take less money to play in the AL, I pray ‘The Game’ doesn’t end up playing for the Cubs.

Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....

by Andre Fonseca on Dec 18, 2008 10:01 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

would I prefer McLouth over the free-agent options?

Sure. But I think it’s kind of silly to size up the merits of acquiring guys who MIGHT be available via trade versus guys who are DEFINITELY available through free agency.

I don’t mean to say this wasn’t worth a post, Al. I’m just tired of seeing comments about how it would be better to get Kubel or Hermida than Bradley or Dunn when there is zero evidence that a trade for the first two players is even remotely possible.

I’d say there is a chance that McLouth is a more likely trade candidate than Kubel or Hermida (based on this story) — but it’s nothing I would bet on happening. I realize that this it’s December and there hasn’t been much of anything to discuss of late. I just hope that if Hendry signs Bradley, people don’t yell and scream that McLouth and others were available when we really don’t know if they ever were.

by elgato on Dec 18, 2008 10:08 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Keep in mind that...

… with Hendry running up against a cost ceiling, it might be worth getting a (somewhat) cheaper player, being creative and making a trade offer, rather than simply throwing money at a guy because his contract is up.

As you said, I posted this because unlike the others (Kubel, Hermida) who we are just speculating about, this article makes it seem like the Pirates might be amenable to trading a guy they can’t afford to keep.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 18, 2008 11:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

There have been plenty of articles

suggesting Hermida is on the block. We also know the Twins have one more OF/DH than they can play (although articles have pointed towards them trading Delmon). I’m not sure that this article makes McLouth more likely than the other two.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Dec 18, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well, McLouth is a new-ish development

Kubel and Hermida have been discussed for a while and nothing has happened. Al’s post is worthwhile — despite the fact that fan trade suggestions don’t usually go very far — because the McLouth story JUST happened and could change the Cubs’ plans.

by elgato on Dec 18, 2008 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't get me wrong. His post is certainly worthwhile.

I’m defending the legitimacy of the other speculations, too.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Dec 18, 2008 7:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

They would demand a haul similar to what we would of given

up for Peavy. If we did do this trade Vitters could come back biting us in the butt a few years down the road but we are in a win now mode so I hope Jim explores this possibility.

by dlee25 on Dec 18, 2008 10:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Maybe if we took Jack Wilson...

and his salary along with McLouth would the Pirates consider dealing us McLouth for thie collection of Cedeno, Pie & Marshall. Does anyone really believe that , outside of Marshall, that these guys are desirable to any other team out there ? Maybe Wellington Castillo, Theriot, Pie, Cedeno and they get to keep Veal if they want to send him to the minors for Jack & Nate & Grabow..

by Southside Steve on Dec 18, 2008 10:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Pie

still has some value. I actually think Pittsburgh would be a great low-pressure fit for him.

by elgato on Dec 18, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

except they have

some of depth, with mccutchen lined up to take over CF as soon as, well, now (at least, he’ll get a shot at taking over cf), and other pieces in place.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree to an extent

that he has some value but other teams realize that he’s out of options and that we’re kind of backed into a corner with him. The team obviously is in a win now frame of mind and just as obviously does not want to give Pie the chance that he needs to succeed at the major league level.

by Southside Steve on Dec 18, 2008 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

but I think Pie would be “desirable” to other teams, to use your word. At the same time, the Cubs certainly don’t have a good bargaining position when it comes to Felix.

by elgato on Dec 18, 2008 10:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're right

Perhaps desirable was not the appopriate word to use. Pie does have skills and promise and Pittsburgh would seem to be a perfect place for him to develop. I know McCutcheon is waiting in the wings but not much OF depth to speak of other than that.

I just don’t think we have the pieces needed to get a player like McLouth unless we take on salary or include Vitters. McLouth, Grabow and Wilson combined would be around $ 10-11M combined which coincidentally is about what it would take to sign Bradley.

by Southside Steve on Dec 18, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

pittsburgh's of depth isn't great, but it isn't bad

Tabata is in AA, and he’s still someone that intrigues many. There’s some potential stopgap options, such as Pearce, Morgan, Moss. Moss and Walker may have borderline starting potential. Another thought would be for Andy LaRoche to potentially go to the OF if they keep his brother.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Good idea

If we take Wilson, we can offer Theriot.

I do believe Cedeno and Pie are desirable to certain teams. We know Baltimore likes them both.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Dec 18, 2008 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hell yes!

Provided it doesn’t take the whole store to get him.

by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Dec 18, 2008 10:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

we don't match up very well

with the Pirates for McLouth. They need pitching. Haha dare I say that we’d need to get a third team involved?

I’d love to see him in Cubbie blue though. It would cause me to have to do some serious trading in my dynasty leagues, but I’d be willing to take that one for the team =)

by Cubinator on Dec 18, 2008 10:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

If he's availabe,

some team with a better farm system will get him. This isn’t like Peavy where he has a NTC and the Cubs are one of the few teams in competition.

SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Dec 18, 2008 10:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Sorry Al but this extremely unrealistic

The price for McLouth would be sky high, and I don’t believe there’s a way we could afford it, not without trading Soto. Some of the packages here are pretty laughable.

If McLouth becomes available (and I don’t think he will, after all he’s controlled through 2011) there will be teams in on him that have way more than we can give.

Filling these roles through trade is just a terrible idea. To get players of value you have to give up too much equity. The Cubs are a team with lots of money – we can afford to fill these roles through free agency.

Bradley gives you almost as good of defense and better bat and only costs you money and risk.

by Wreckard on Dec 18, 2008 11:08 AM CST reply actions 1 recs

Soto?

Please. Remember, the reason he’d be available is because the Pirates need to control costs.

I would argue that filling this need by trade is a BETTER idea than throwing $10+ million a year at a guy who’s an injury risk (in addition to the other negatives that have been discussed to death here).

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 18, 2008 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It is a better idea

Because there aren’t any great outfield options out there. Trading for McLouth is a great idea, but it’s probably a lot harder to pull off than signing Bradley or Dunn.

by elgato on Dec 18, 2008 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not saying we should trade Soto

I’m just saying that’s what the Pirates would ask for.

Cobbling together a package of Vitters (our only propsect of value) plus some spare parts isn’t going to compete with packages from all the other teams who would be interested in a young stud outfielder.

And if you do somehow manage to pull the deal off, your cupboards would be completely bare.

by Wreckard on Dec 18, 2008 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I doubt the Pirates would ask for Soto.

Two reasons:

1) The article I linked was primarily to announce they had re-signed Ryan Doumit, who is their starting catcher. They don’t need a catcher.

2) If they got Soto, they would in a year have the same problem they have with McLouth — they wouldn’t be able to afford to pay him.

The Pirates have money problems. Why can’t we help them out?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 18, 2008 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If controlling costs is such an issue for them

…then why were they trying to throw a bunch of money at him to extend him on a multi-year deal?

I just don’t buy this one bit; it’s pure fabrication that he’d be available anyway, and even if he was we don’t have anything of value to give for him. Who do we have that they’d want beyond Vitters? Because it would take more than Vitters – look at the Cabrera trade, or the Haren trade – you’ll have to give up at least 3 near-ML ready prospects to get talent like this for > 1 year.

We don’t have 3 near-ML prospects in our entire system.

by Wreckard on Dec 18, 2008 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

They "threw" some money at him.

Clearly it wasn’t enough, or he would have signed.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 18, 2008 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That doesn't make him any more expensive this year

He won’t get expensive until 2010 or 2011 at the earliest – this is his first year of arbitration eligibility.

But anyway, I realize you’re probably just trying to do your job here and find things to talk about. So:

What about the 2nd part?

Who of value could we possibly offer them, other than Vitters? Keeping in mind you’re talking about trying to trade for 3 cost-controlled years of one of the 5 best center fielders in baseball.

by Wreckard on Dec 18, 2008 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I suppose Sean Marshall would be interesting to them.

Beyond that… your point is taken.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 18, 2008 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe they are trying to acquire an all left-handed pitching staff.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 18, 2008 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This would make me very happy

and would make up for a very disappointing offseason.
I’ve said it many times here, McLouth would be a superb addition to the Cubs roster. Give the Pirates Pie, Cedeño, Marquis (with salary considerations), Vitters, the two Hills, some CBOT seats, a couple jerseys, and Larry Rothschild.
Seriously though, I’d do whatever it takes.

One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.

by chilango2 on Dec 18, 2008 11:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

They can have just about whomever the want for McLouth IMO....

….talk about the ideal soultion to the problem.

Too bad Trader Jim’s buddy Dave Littlefield is no longer there, we could have him for Cedeno and a minor leaguer…

New sig currently under construction

by JB 23 on Dec 18, 2008 11:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I LIKE THIS IDEA MUCHO

Anyone watching him during that play in the All Star game cannot deny this guy has what it takes for CF ..

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Dec 18, 2008 11:43 AM CST reply actions 1 recs

Dioner Navarro agrees with you!

"The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible." ~Arthur C. Clarke

by Goodie1969 on Dec 27, 2008 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

McLouth

Yes, Yes, Yes.
For the past couple of weeks I have been thinking about this guy as a great option for our outfield problem if he ever became available via trade.
Get it done, Jim!!!

by LACubFan on Dec 18, 2008 12:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

How about this...

Pie, Theriot, and Angel Guzman for McLouth. I think three “Major League Ready” players for a very good player might work.

by Chuck12570 on Dec 18, 2008 12:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Pie probably doesn't interest them...

… and neither would Theriot, most likely.

But Guzman probably would. Guzman, Marshall & Vitters?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 18, 2008 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Correct AL

I think the should work. Guzman and Marshall are MLB ready and can contribute to their team right away. Sean Marshall could step right in and be their #3 starter and Guzman with a healthy spring training could step right in at their #4 starter with the potential to be a #2.

Josh Vitters is a can’t miss prospect that they can keep or flip him for more prospects in the years to come.

Nate McClouth value may never be any higher and since he rejected their offers, may not really even want to play for the Pirates anymore. It might be in their best interest to get some MLB pitchers especially since they have McClouth’s replacement pretty much ready to step in whose ceiling is Carlos Beltran type player.

If Nate is really unhappy there, I would do this in a second if I were the Buc’s

by MrShowtime on Dec 18, 2008 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Based on what I've been reading...

…it sounds like Guzman is a safer bet to go into the bullpen, assuming he has a solid spring. Not that it’s a bad thing… one thing the Pirates need (well, one of dozens) is a solid bullpen arm.

by Flatley on Dec 18, 2008 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

For real

When you have a young team, ( Pirates are very young) it is very important that the younger players see vet’s that want to be there. It just makes the overall growth experience much better for developing young players.

There’s nothing worse then having a guy just counting his days to free agency even worse pressuring the GM to trade him in the clubhouse supposedly being the role model for the youngsters. That’s just a recipe for a disaster, so Pirates send Nate our way!

by MrShowtime on Dec 18, 2008 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

tell that

to the Tampa Bay Rays

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Dec 18, 2008 4:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Would the Pirates really put Guzman in their rotation...

…knowing (presumably) his injury history? And can the Cubs really afford to lose Sean Marshall as rotational depth given Harden’s injury history and Z’s troubles last season? Those are the questions I’d ask. I guess I just did.

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by dat cubfan daver on Dec 18, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Key is

If Guzman has a good spring and shows he’s healthy, he would be a good back of the rotation guy for the Pirates while he builds his strength and confidence.

If not, he would be very valuable for one of the worst bullpens in the NL.

by MrShowtime on Dec 18, 2008 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure Guzman would be more than a throw-in

He’s coming off an injury and still has to prove himself healthy before he can even begin to have value again.

I personally think Marshall has too much service time to be of use to an organization like the Pirates.

by Wreckard on Dec 18, 2008 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If your right Wreckard

Then we send Pie to the Orioles for Olsen or whatever young pitcher they want to give us and flip him to the Pirates in the package.

Then we send Mark DeRosa to the Twins for either Kevin Slowley, Glen Perkins, or Nick Blackburn.

Then we spend the money we were going to spend on the LH OF on bullpen help and then make a big splash in June or July.

Send Marquis to whomever for some prospects to rebuild the farm system.

Offseason complete,

by MrShowtime on Dec 18, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

GET ON THE HORN, JIM

"Thank god I threw out my belt & shoelaces."-Bernies Mustache Wax on Evil BCB, 7/31/08

by Bildo1805 on Dec 18, 2008 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, with all due respect to Pie...

…that would mean the Pirates would be trading a proven major league centerfielder for an unproven one. And I’m not sure even the Pirates would do that.

I was very much impressed by Mclouth last season and would like to see him in a Cubs uniform. If the Bucs want pitching, though, I would doubt the Cubs have what it takes.

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by dat cubfan daver on Dec 18, 2008 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I was impressed as well....McLouth's 9th inning HR off Marmol last year is etched in my mind...

That was a tough loss…

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN200805170.shtml

New sig currently under construction

by JB 23 on Dec 18, 2008 1:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

More than that

They will want players with minimal MLB service time.

Pie and Marshall have too much already. I just don’t think they fit.

by Wreckard on Dec 18, 2008 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think it's the lack of options that will keep Pie's trade value down.

by Flatley on Dec 18, 2008 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Which is why

we should not deal him…

100 years would have been nice, but 101 years still has a nice ring to it.

by airweino on Dec 18, 2008 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

what? how

I really dont understand why people are saying Pie would have minimal value to them. What would keep Pie from being their starting right fielder on opening day if we traded him to them?

bring up felix.

by kylejo on Dec 19, 2008 7:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Best lefty-hitting OF option so far

-Legitimate All-Star? Check.
-Relatively low salary? Check.
-Not a million years old? Check.
-No major injury concerns? Check.
-Not a total head case? Check.

Mister Hendry, get this guy. Not tomorrow, not after breakfast… now.

"I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game." - Walt Whitman

by hip2bsquare on Dec 18, 2008 12:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Forgot to verify the most critical checkpoints:

-Available via trade?
-Do the Cubs have what it takes to acquire him?

Make a call, Jim, but don’t spend too much time on this. Maybe next offseason….

by Flatley on Dec 18, 2008 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

legitimate all star????

he had an all star season last year, but that doesn’t mean he’s likely to be an all star player again

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 18, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m not saying he will definitely continue to be a legitimate All-Star, only that he was last season. You’re right, it’s entirely possible that he may never be again, but I feel that there’s a reasonably good chance that he will be.

"I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game." - Walt Whitman

by hip2bsquare on Dec 18, 2008 4:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oooh, oooh, I want, I want.

Srsly. If this is possible, I’m shocked we haven’t already pulled the trigger.

WANT

"Thank god I threw out my belt & shoelaces."-Bernies Mustache Wax on Evil BCB, 7/31/08

by Bildo1805 on Dec 18, 2008 1:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

This would be great, but

I just am not sure we have the parts to pull it off…like it was stated above, Jim’s favorite trading partner is no longer in Pittsburgh. Plus, he is still under team control through 2011. Even though McCutchen is the future for the Pirates, McClouth really came on last year.

I would deal willing to part with just about anyone at this point since McClouth makes more sense than Peavy.

FWIW, I am trying to acquire McClouth in my fantasy league!

100 years would have been nice, but 101 years still has a nice ring to it.

by airweino on Dec 18, 2008 1:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

ME WANT.

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Dec 18, 2008 2:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

McLouth would cost a king's ransom to acquire

Pittsburgh is under zero pressure to move McLouth as he is a couple years away from arbitration eligibility. The only way they are going to trade away an estimable and inexpensive commodity like him is if they are completely bowled over by somebody. Plus, they would be extra hesitant to trade him to a division rival, especially the Cubs given the Aramis Ramirez experience.

Fantasyland stuff I’m afraid.

by BLou on Dec 18, 2008 2:47 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Wait, who's right here?

Didn’t the original post say he’s eligible for arbitration sooner?

"Thank god I threw out my belt & shoelaces."-Bernies Mustache Wax on Evil BCB, 7/31/08

by Bildo1805 on Dec 18, 2008 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

2011 from what I have read

by BLou on Dec 18, 2008 3:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's when he's a free agent

He’s arbitration eligible this season.

by Wreckard on Dec 18, 2008 6:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

he's eligible for arbitration right now

i think, haven’t taken a look at the contract in awhile, but he’s not a FA until 2011 or 2012, which means that he should be up for arb. now.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 3:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

McLouth may not be a wise move.

I like him, but not as a CF and not for the cost in players it would likely take to acquire him.
There is a risk that we’d be buying (very) high.

First, if the Pirates do decide to trade him there will likely be a good market for a cost controlled center fielder coming off a breakout (fluke?) season- driving the price in players/prospects up.

Next, his arbitration awards are likely to be risky, given his agents valuation being so much higher than the Bucs. What I mean is, he’s likely to favor one year contracts or arbitration over a team friendly multi- year deal that buys out his arb. years. This is a minor point and really only a huge deal in the event that 2008 was a breakout and not a fluke/career season.

Mainly, I don’t think he is a CF- RF though and he is a lefty. As mentioned above the Gold Glove was really not indicative of his ability. Here’s the link to Rob Neyers article about that. A good (I think) evaluation of his fielding was done by John Dewan as some people have mentioned also. These views are supported, in part by advanced stats. His range was about like Reed Johnson and less! than Edmonds’. Here is a review of his prospect years by John Sickels.

If he wouldn’t cost so many players in return, I’d think he be a decent RF that could suit our needs. The links above basically say that his range is his biggest problem and his arm is probably his biggest strength- voila!- RF! Depleting the tradeable parts pool for him would be risky- even thinking about mid season pick ups. Free agents like Bradley are costly in $s, but if you can make a reasonable deal- you at least have some players to make trades.

But, McClouth has heavy duty scrappiness and industrial strength grit- so yeah, he’s got that going for him, which is nice. I’d still like to get Bradley, if he isn’t too much more expensive than we’ve heard so far. I’d be willing to bet that 100 games of him + 62 games of whoever > McLouth. Just an opinion.

"Baseball is like church- many attend, few understand." ~ Leo Durocher

by The Lip on Dec 18, 2008 2:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Why didn't the links work?!!!

Let’s try again.

Neyer’s article.

Dewan’s evaluation.

Sickels review.

PMR rating CFs.

"Baseball is like church- many attend, few understand." ~ Leo Durocher

by The Lip on Dec 18, 2008 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Looks like you clicked the picture button instead of the link button.

Or just a bug.

"Thank god I threw out my belt & shoelaces."-Bernies Mustache Wax on Evil BCB, 7/31/08

by Bildo1805 on Dec 18, 2008 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think you're right.

I bet I did hit the picture button. Serves me right for writing a term paper on a blog using references!

"Baseball is like church- many attend, few understand." ~ Leo Durocher

by The Lip on Dec 18, 2008 6:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i was under the impression

based on what i’d seen and what i remember, that mclouth’s arm was average. u sure it’s a plus arm? or are you simply saying his arm is the strongest part of his defensive game?

btw, the price is already quite high. the yankees made a run at him early in the offseason, and i believe that the pirates asked for cano and more.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 3:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Dewan said...

…..

we see that two areas of his defense are above average: his ability to prevent base runners from advancing on hits and his ability to make a play above and beyond the ordinary. But we also see that, despite this low error total, he has more than his share of defensive misplays. And the most important aspect of playing outfield defense is covering ground, and McLouth struggles here big time.

Link

Didn’t know about the Yankees.

I agree with you about McClouth in what you’ve said about this in your posts above-I think the links I (eventually) proved were some of the ones you’ve mentioned previously.

I couldn’t get excited about this unless he was acquired in an excellent deal for us.

"Baseball is like church- many attend, few understand." ~ Leo Durocher

by The Lip on Dec 18, 2008 6:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

for all the McLouth love

would we trade all this if we thought he was going to post a line like:

.270/.355/.426

i.e. good but not “great”

because McLouth’s career OPS is right around .800 and that line above is his 2nd half line last year

and his career minor league OPS was .789

basically what I’m saying is his numbers from last year look pretty inflated by an incredible 1st half power surge.

I’m not saying McLouth isn’t a good player or a good acquisition, but some of the trade proposals thrown around are for that of an ALL STAR player and McLouth isn’t at that level. In fact my guess is he’s fairly similar in overall value to someone like Hermida (since Hermida is a bit more cost friendly and further away from arb)

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 18, 2008 3:23 PM CST reply actions 1 recs

i should say

consistent ALL STAR player, since McLouth did actually make the AS team this year…

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 18, 2008 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Rec'd

Contrast McLouth and Hermida – McLouth should cost more, and we’re probably buying high. Hermida should cost less and we’re probably buying low.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Dec 18, 2008 7:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

hermida

should cost less but it seems like the marlins are playing it smart, knowing that they have upside in hermida that is attractive, along with 3 cost-controlled years, and as such, they are demanding a fair amount in return.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 7:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yea - he's still not going to be inexpensive.

I’m really starting to warm to the idea of pursuing a Cano deal, then looking for a LH-leadoff man. I wonder if we’d even be able to manage a deal for Cano and Damon since the Yankees want to clear payroll. Perhaps if we also took Igawa to be our LOOGY….

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Dec 18, 2008 8:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you're forgetting

that we want to clear payroll….

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 18, 2008 8:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

by BLou on Dec 18, 2008 8:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Every indication has been that our payroll is going up.

We have to be careful, but we are adding payroll.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Dec 18, 2008 9:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Damon-Cano

shouldn’t be any higher than what we’re looking at, and I’m assuming we have to give up DeRosa in that deal.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Dec 18, 2008 9:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that's 20 million

Damon is at 13 and Cano is at 6 this year

if we give up DeRosa he cancels out Cano, so its STILL 13 (which i’m not sure we have without clearing Marquis, that was the big crux in the peavy talks)

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 19, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

the yankees are demanding the moon for cano as well

they were asking some package involving kemp from the dodgers according to some rumors. it’s understandable, as cano still shows that sweet stroke when he’s not in a slow start funk (the kemp thing never made much sense to me in terms of something the dodgers would even ponder – dodgers need righty bats, cano would add to their lefty options).

Yankees aren’t exactly looking to slash payroll that heavily. by most indications, they have about 15 million or so (signing another starter – perhaps pettite, and some expenditure on a cf perhaps – they weren’t willing to take on cameron’s entire deal without the brewers handling some, or handling igawa’s contract – that is how i get a 15 mil or so number). keep in mind the yankees lost a ton this offseason. they might slash nady off (that was one rumor i heard) to make room for said of to go with another starter. personally, i think they need another pen arm, although they may fill that with their deep roster of internal minor league options.

i’m not sure they would move damon. they need him as their leadoff hitter, unless they want to revisit jeter as a leadoff option. as for cano, i’m not sure we have anything to offer them that would get them to pull the trigger.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 9:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Obviously this comment isnt to everyone

But why were we so up in arms about giving up Vitters and other prospects for Peavy (a cy young award winner….yes i know he played in Petco), but now some people want to give him up for McLouth? Is it just the money? Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely love McLouth. Just the type of guy this team probably needs. He was a bright spot on a bad team and I think he has massive potential. But it still was one season. I realize that Abreu, Bradley and Dunn are all older, cost more, and are more of a defensive liability, but why not attain them through free agency and save those pieces for a Peavy (ugh, i know) or even Roberts type trade. OR EVEN, to actually play for the cubs. But we never want that, haha. Just a thought…..

by KButler on Dec 18, 2008 3:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

that was my point

i wouldnt give up Vitters in a McLouth deal

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 18, 2008 3:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yea i thought thats what you were getting at

I like the guy, but with such limited trade prospects that we have, I just dont agree with it.

by KButler on Dec 18, 2008 3:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i don't think i would either

unless it was a 1 for 1 type deal, which pittsburgh wouldn’t do. my above suggestion (Vitters/Cedeno/Marshall/Guzman) was what I thought it would take for Pittsburgh to listen. That sort of deal doesn’t interest me much.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 3:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

honestly

that woulnd infuriate me. As I said, i LOVE mclouth, but Marshall is a a pretty decent major league pitcher, guzman, who knows, but certainly has always looked promising, vitters, is are number one prospect (or in cubs world, trading piece) and cedeno is a decent back up. Losing all them for Mclouth would, im my opinion, be outrageous.

by KButler on Dec 18, 2008 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

Cubs would have to offer up something like Josh Vitters, Sean Marshall and a couple additional prospects. Even then I doubt very seriously that Pittsburgh is going to trade away a guy who rapidly became a fan favorite and is cheap for the next few years. Nate McLouth is the type of player you keep unless you intend on folding the franchise in Pittsburgh. There’s only so much b.s. and futility that Pirate fans are going to take, especially in this severe economic climate.

by BLou on Dec 18, 2008 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think that's the point

we’d be buying McLouth at an absolute high and he’s not a missing piece type that would put us over the top, so why empty the farm system

a nice guy to think about, but not worth the cost associated with him

maybe last year…. but not this year

he’s very likely to regress from last year’s numbers since they’re so inflated by his monster power surge in the 1st half

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 18, 2008 6:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i don't disagree

but for the pirates, it has to be a justifiable trade for them, and marshall only adds to the collection of mid-end of the rotation arms for them, vitters is somewhat minimized with alvarez/laroche as young corner if’s (and they have some of depth). again, not saying i would do the trade, but i think, for the pirates, that’s 3 cost-controlled years of one of their more valuable guys and they’ll want a lot. even if they back off the rough value of cano and more right now, i doubt they drop too far.

that said, this is all speculative.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 7:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

At the risk of being entirely too honest

The thought of adding McLouth without substantially subtracting from our lineup makes me feel funny in my happy spot.

I can’t think of many players that would be a better fit.

"This is an environment of welcoming, and you should just get the hell outta here." --Michael Scott

by Reddevil on Dec 18, 2008 5:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

And that's the point.

McLouth is a good fit. Peavy is a luxury. There’s the reason it would be worth giving up those players in exchange.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 8:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Couldn't we

ship Gathright to the Pirates too? Would there be a package we could pickup McClouth and Duke? Marshall, Harden, Marquis, Veal, Vitters, Pie, Cedeno, Lee, and DeRosa have all been mentioned in trade rumors. I can’t help but feel that the acquisition of Gathright has to be an indication of a big trade to come.

Andy R.

by WindisBlowingOut! on Dec 18, 2008 8:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

why duke?

i’d rather keep marshall than trot duke out there. if, in a hypothetical, we deal marshall, then maybe, but even then, i’m not sure i wouldn’t rather have marquis/gaudin, maybe wells, maybe atkins than trading assets for duke.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 9:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No you can't trade Gathright until May

There’s no sign-and-trade in baseball.

I don’t know of a single legitimate rumor that has involved Harden or Lee and I follow this stuff pretty closely. Also, the rumors of Marshall and Derosa being available have been shot down pretty hard.

by Wreckard on Dec 19, 2008 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

The rumors for DLee and DeRo have been shot down, but if we were to include Harden, Marquis or Marshall or even a combination of those names in a deal for McClouth, I think it’d benefit the team to get a 4/5 starter in return.

Andy R.

by WindisBlowingOut! on Dec 19, 2008 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Why would the Pirates want Marquis or Harden?

Both of them have one single year left on their contracts. Neither are very cheap.

You have to look at trades from both sides. If McLouth were available (and I don’t think he will be for at least one more year) the Pirates would want young players (probably with an emphasis on young pitching) with little to no service time.

We don’t really have anyone in our system like that. The best fit I can think of for them would be Marmol and Marshall, and even those guys have a little bit more service time than would be ideal.

by Wreckard on Dec 19, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Because

they could flip both of them for young prospects. It’s not necessarily the way to go about acquiring young players but perhaps they think they’d be able to get more for a couple pitchers, one of whom is pretty darn good, than an outfielder who isn’t very good defensively, who might have already had his career year, who may not have much of a market beyond a couple teams. Everyone needs pitching. Now, I don’t think that the Pirates would pursue this sort of trade, but it could be done. Not to mention that there is talk of the Pirates dealing Snell, which would open up another spot in their rotation. I can’t believe that they would think that adding Marquis and/or Harden would turn them into contenders anymore than adding Matt Morris did, but they would need bodies. Think of the return they could get on Harden at the trade deadline if he where healthy and productive.

So that’s why, if not a probability. If I were a GM I wouldn’t make that sort of trade but the Pirates aren’t in a very good position right now, maybe they’d do something creative with the hopes of maximizing their personnel. They could end up with multiple good, young players just by trading McClouth.

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Dec 20, 2008 7:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs