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Slightly OT: Braves reaction to Furcal deal

I was pleased to see the reaction of Frank Wren and John Schuerholz to the apparent reneging on a deal that would have brought Rafael Furcal back to the Braves.  The Braves claim the deal was verbally agreed to (at 3/10 plus a 4th year option), and that Furcal's agents went and shopped the deal to the Dodgers who upped their offer to match it.

I realize that the baseball business world is a different animal, but I couldn't agree with Atlanta management more that this was a completely unethical thing to do.  They have now gone public with the statement that they will never again do business with Furcal's representation, the Wasserman Media Group.

http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/stories/2008/12/18/atlanta_braves_john_schuerholz.html

Huge kudos to Wren and Schuerholz for taking this stand, and for making it public.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Its interesting...

to say the least. Though, if Furcal only used the Braves to leverage the Dodgers (since the contracts in the end seem to be similar) then why did he need to go to such lengths? The faxed sheet and everything? Why not just tell the Dodgers, listen…we’ve got such and such on the table from the Braves. Furcal wants to come back so if you match it right now, he’ll sign it right now.

I don’t doubt Schuerholz will back up his claim to not negotiate with anyone represented by WMG I wish more teams would take a stand against shady agents and their tactics. Some already do with Boras, but more should do it all around.

by CubFan81 on Dec 18, 2008 5:33 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

one quick thing to add...

to me, it seems the Dodgers saw the term sheet as some sort of proof. Is that allowed? I remember back when ARod was negotiating and the Rangers supposedly bid against themselves as the Braves total offer came in significantly less ($25M-$50M).

If it is allowed, why don’t more teams insist upon it. If they do and the agent balks, then say goodbye. To me at least, Boras is constantly playing the “We’ve received numerous offers from a number of teams” card but nobody knows who and how much.

by CubFan81 on Dec 18, 2008 5:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If more teams really took a stand like that...

the MLBPA would begin the piss and moan party in .000024551 nanoseconds.

Collusion! Collusion! Collusion! Collusion! Collusion! Collusion! Collusion! Collusion!

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 18, 2008 5:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks you beat me to it

And I also see you are having trouble posting link. For me it only works in comments not fanposts so here you go
http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/stories/2008/12/18/atlanta_braves_john_schuerholz.html

Schuerholtz and the Braves have always been the classiest organization is baseball. They are straight shooters.
They do not tolerate bad behavior by players or agents. I remember how wmbarrassed By both Robert Fick and John Rocker. Some teams might have made excuses but the Braves did not. Too bad their fans have never deserved the teams they got.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 18, 2008 5:40 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Schuerholtz

If I were baseball I’d make him commissioner not MacPhail.

MaIne South Hawks 2008 Class 8a Champs!

by cubstoseriesby100 on Dec 18, 2008 7:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Also

Also our beloved Mad Dog has said that Hendry reminds him of Schuerholz in many ways.

If the Cubs start on a long term path of success like the Braves that would be sweet.

What the two men have in common is they are both very well respected and liked by other GMs, managers and players.

And both love Greg Maddux. And so do we.

MaIne South Hawks 2008 Class 8a Champs!

by cubstoseriesby100 on Dec 18, 2008 7:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Was this a

Soliloquy?

If so you’d had better been looking off into the distance when you typed it.

by StevenABQ on Dec 19, 2008 9:35 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Kinzer did the same thing

with Furcal 3 years ago when Hendry thought he had a deal with him. Kinzer is obviously a true scumbag.

by cubswin on Dec 18, 2008 5:49 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Can someone expand on the supposed Cub deal?

I missed this but I’ve heard several people mention it in passing.

by dr stabbingworth on Dec 18, 2008 5:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I am too tired to look up the details

but the short version is the Cubs thought they had a deal with Furcal in 2006. I think it was for 5 years and 50 plus million.
However the Dodgers supposedly make a surprise last minute take or leave it offer INSISTING that Furcal decide WITHOUT
speaking again to Hendry. He takes the Dodgers deal and Hendry is very steamed and the domino effect is the debacle of the
Pierre trade because he needs a lead off hitter desperately.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 18, 2008 6:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually this would be in late 2005 for the 2006 season.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 18, 2008 6:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Remember

I remember it pretty much that way too.

By the way I was reading the wiki on Mr. Maddux. Did you know that he spent a good part of his childhood in Spain>

MaIne South Hawks 2008 Class 8a Champs!

by cubstoseriesby100 on Dec 18, 2008 7:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

side note

i actually think it was closer to 4/44 or something that hendry offered, and then ned came in with the higher aav on a 3 year deal. very curious now so will try to find a link.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 7:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

IIRC...

… it was 4/48… $12m per year. Furcal got $1m more per year (3/39) from the Dodgers.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 18, 2008 8:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Schuerholz

I really like John Schuerholz and think he would make an excellent commisioner.

MaIne South Hawks 2008 Class 8a Champs!

by cubstoseriesby100 on Dec 18, 2008 6:12 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Furcal and his people represemt the worst of today's athletes;

greedy, dishonest sleazeballs who are out to squeeze every last dime they can out of whatever team is stupid enough to sign them.

by bluekoolaide on Dec 18, 2008 6:15 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

+1

If you can’t trust someone, you sure as hell shouldn’t be doing business with them. This reinforces my previously held suspicions that the Braves have a solid management group.

We all wondered why Hendry didn’t go for Furcal. Maybe he feels the same way as the Braves do, in a less public way.

by Cubinator on Dec 18, 2008 6:42 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Apparently,

Kinzer felt like he had to release a statement:
"If it serves our clients we will continue to present opportunities to the Braves, which in accordance with the rules governing Major League Baseball, the Braves must entertain. We hope that once emotions have subsided, the Braves will act in a manner consistent with not only their obligations under the Collective Bargaining Agreement and The National Labor Relations Act, but also the best interests of the franchise. In short, we would not want this incident to color their better judgment. "

Sounds almost like a threat to me. Here is the rest of the link for those interested.
http://www.insidesocal.com/dodgers/

by chrisw95 on Dec 18, 2008 8:05 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Sounds sort of like a threat to me too

Not sure that they could prove anything… Its not like the Braves give out large contracts to free agents every year anyway. So, it would be hard to prove that they were doing anything wrong. Too bad for the sleazebags. They are only saying this because they have a current player on the Braves (I forget who) and they are probably scared that player may want to get a new agent.

by LT on Dec 18, 2008 8:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That Player

is Pete Moylon, (Had to do so searching, my curiousity was piqued) not exactly a superstar, but not too bad either. And for a player like fringe player like him, it could be an issue in resigning. But I think the Braves have too much class to let that be an issue. But I can promise you that the organization will not be looking into signing anymore of their clients.
Just a few important Cubs on that list too. Although thye have Sammy SoSo listed as a free agent. LOL

by chrisw95 on Dec 18, 2008 8:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's nonsense.

If the Braves don’t want to deal with Kinzer, they don’t HAVE to “entertain” any “opportunities” that they don’t want to. Are they accusing the Braves of collusion?

Kinzer’s an ass. Does he have any current Cubs as clients?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 18, 2008 8:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

isn't aram his?

could be mistaken, but i thought aram was a kinzer/tellem guy.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 9:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Aramis...

is the only Kinzer guy on the current roster. Though, Geovany Soto is listed as a Wasserman Media Group client. Other guys include Hector Carrasco and Reed Johnson.

by CubFan81 on Dec 18, 2008 9:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Aramis

has had only good negotiations with the Cubs (reportedly), and he probably even left money on the table in his last extension, because he thought the offer was fair and he wanted to stay.

This suggests that it could be Furcal who’s the real sleaze, not necessarily Kinzer.

"Who's Bob Brenly? The guy that used to be the manager for Arizona?" ~ Alfonso Guilleard Soriano

by JohnM on Dec 19, 2008 4:24 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Possibly so...

… the fact that he’s (Furcal has) done it twice leads me to agree with you.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 8:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agents scream collusion

at the first sign they’re not getting what they’ve promised their clients. It’s a tired act.

Demp and Rich: proof that people that live in igloos and say "eh" can contibute!

by Canadian Cubs Fan on Dec 18, 2008 11:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

National Labor Relations Act??

Sorry, the Braves would do nothing to violate that, its not as if they are denying him work, there are 29 other clubs out there he can deal with.
The players association may whine, but they have no grounds either.
However, I think the recourse may be far worse for Wasserman Media Group, as now that other GM’s have seen their tactics, they will be a little more cautious with them in the future.

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 7:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

reading over the statement

and i can see a scenario like this (my own speculation)

agents and braves work out a deal
furcal indicates interest, but needs time
to save time, agents perhaps ask braves to work out a term sheet … but note that furcal still needs time
braves assume the former to mean a deal was done, whereas the agents were perhaps just doing their due dilligence

maybe somewhere in there, furcal goes to his agents and says, i don’t want to be in atlanta.

I don’t know, just speculation. What I’m trying to get at, though, is that there is usually two sides to a story. for all the indignation the braves can attempt to show, i find it hard to believe that it was solely wmg’s fault, considering that one major piece of this story has always been consistent which is that furcal needed time.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 9:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's unheard of

to ask for a signed term sheet, and then shop that to another team. There was absolutely no binding agreement of course, but Kinzer took advantage of the customary way these things are done (gentleman’s agreements precede binding agreements).

I agree with Al, Kinzer is an ass.

by Cubinator on Dec 19, 2008 12:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Atlanta will get the last laugh

The best thing that could have happened to the Braves is for Rafael Furcal and his bad back and overrrated offensive game to sign elsewhere. They’ll look back in a year and thank their lucky stars that the fool abandoned them at the alter for the Dodgers.

by BLou on Dec 18, 2008 8:16 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I guess the Dodgers needed another high salary

to add to their DL to keep the others company.

by LT on Dec 18, 2008 8:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

braves have a serious credibility issue, though

they entered the offseason knowing that, which is why they went after peavy and burnett and both times were left at the altar, for various reasons, depending on who you believe. that said, this was the first offseason they had money, and they were close enough to their recent history that some players might have interest. the significance in this offseason wasn’t, imo, in building for 2009 – it was for them to build towards 2010. players, at the end of the day, still want to play for winners. the further away the braves get (say, another poor year in 2009), the harder it will be to net fa’s. the reality is, the ability to build a core, and that’s the keyword, internally is the exception and not the rule. most teams need to go outside. for every tampa bay (and even the rays built it from moves as well, kazmir/garza in the rotation, their pen, bartlett/pena/iwamura/navarro were external), well the rays took 10 years.

not saying it’s impossible to rebuild internally, and the braves have one of the best systems in the game, even after making that texeira deal that helped stock the rangers system. That said, their credibility is at a tenuous edge right now. i don’t know how they save the rest of their offseason to protect 2010, considering they don’t like to deal with boras either. maybe their lucky and are one of the rare occasions where their youngsters develop. the loss of furcal from the market diminishes the chance of the braves sucking it up and going back to the padres on peavy (they should’ve done that anyways, i still can’t believe jeff locke and a ntc were essentially the difference in a deal when the stake of the franchise’s near future was at hand). i think their best move right now, assuming they won’t deal with boras on lowe, is to go after kawakami and sheets, try to get smoltz/glavine back as veteran support, and maybe send out some nets on smaller trades involving guys like jo-jo reyes and charlie morton. not sure they are all that into pat the bat.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 9:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And its getting even better.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-tellembraves121908&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Looks like Furcals agents tinkled in more than the Braves wheaties.
I must ask though, does something like this not violate the collective bargaining agreement in someway?

by chrisw95 on Dec 18, 2008 8:37 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure, but...

… I’ll bet some court would love to rule on a lawsuit brought by Tellem and Kinzer saying that the Braves MUST do business with them.

The collective bargaining agreement does not, to my knowledge, require anybody to do business with a specific agency representing players. If a player who was represented by them wanted to play for the Braves, he’d have to do it with another agent.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 18, 2008 9:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't Kenny Williams

refuse to deal with Scott Boras clients a couple years back? I’m not a huge Williams fan, but I liked the stance he took. Boras is a parasite, and too many teams let him run the show.

Demp and Rich: proof that people that live in igloos and say "eh" can contibute!

by Canadian Cubs Fan on Dec 18, 2008 11:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Why do people hate Boras so much?

I’ve never understood that. Boras does what he can to get the most money for his clients. If that money wasn’t going to the players, it would be going into the owners’ pockets.

by Wreckard on Dec 19, 2008 10:30 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right

He’s good at what he does. Agents and lawyers are easy jobs to hate.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Dec 19, 2008 11:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And the Cubs

helped him finance his initial start into all if this too.
Gotta give him credit for working the Cubs into paying for law school for him.

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 11:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

For Kinzer and Tellum to prevail

They’d have to prove that in a particular case the Braves decision was entirely based on discriminatory practices. Kinzer and Tellum are right that under the CBA the Braves are required to entertain their client. Entertaining an offer doesn’t mean much. If there’s any logical reason for the Braves to not sign one of their players then Kinzer/Tellum don’t have a leg to stand on. Judges review business decisions using the ‘Business Judgment’ rule, which is very deferential to management decision-making.

Long-story short: Kinzer/Tellum are kind of right in that the Braves have to accept proposals from them. As a practical matter, if the Braves don’t want to sign anymore Kinzer/Tellum clients a court isn’t going to make them.

by Cubinator on Dec 19, 2008 12:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the whole Kinzer/Tellum press release

was entirely damage control for their current client roster and for any possible clients down the road.

What the Braves did was create a weakness that other agents will take advantage of. Boras, the BHSC guys, etc. will be in the ear of any Tellum represented player who might be a candidate for the Braves. They will be telling them, “Your agent can’t get you what you need. Those guys can’t even use the Braves as leverage against another team. We, however, have a very good reputation with the Braves and deal with them all the time.” This weakness only increases with time, as players realize that no Tellum player actually is signing with the Braves.

So Tellum is trying to create the illusion that he can somehow force the Braves to sign his guys. The statement isn’t geared towards the Braves; he’s trying to cover his own bottom line. It won’t work. The longer the Braves do not sign a Tellum guy, the more power the other agents have in stealing current and future clients away from Tellum.

I get the feeling the Braves brass decided that if Kinzer wanted to play hardball then they’d play hardball. And I’m kind of impressed.

by Cubinator on Dec 19, 2008 12:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So am I.

And I suspect that, quietly, other teams will push Kinzer/Tellem clients to the side, perhaps to the point that many of those clients will choose other agents.

Kinzer & Tellem may have shot themselves in the foot.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 8:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Uh-huh

And then they will land a hot prospect again and all will be forgiven.

If the Cubs blow off the next A-Ram or Zambrano out of spite, I will be livid.

You win. Be honorable on your own damn time.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 8:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll repeat what I said elsewhere.

I’d never want to have business dealings with you. And I’m guessing if you were a baseball GM, the other 29 wouldn’t want to deal with you either.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 8:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But if I had the hot player

They’d have to. And they’d get over it.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 8:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No, they wouldn't "have" to.

I don’t know what you do for a living, but I say again: I’m glad i don’t have any business dealings with you, because you seem 100% unethical.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 8:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Al...

You’ve been around baseball too long to be this naive.

When Soto becomes a free agent, the Braves will be in line just like everyone else.

Schuerholz is letting off steam. He was wrong to do it so publicly and he looks like an ass. He’s going to look like a wuss when he signs the next Tellem client.

Boras has pulled 10 times as many stunts as this and is still working. You know why? Because teams can’t resist players.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 8:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No, Boras has NEVER pulled off "a stunt like this".

You simply have no understanding of what a “term sheet” is. NO ONE has ever had one of those and not signed.

Think what you want, but you’re wrong on this issue.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 9:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I can't believe I'm saying this

But I actually agree with Worf. Weird. My impression of the MLB is that teams and players treat each other like shit all the time. It goes both ways.

I have no room in my heart to feel bad for a team that gets screwed, because they do it just as much as they get it back.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Dec 19, 2008 9:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Boras & Manny

Did something FAR worse than backing out of a deal at the last-second.

That’s what we’re talking about here. A last-second change of mind.

Would you be so outraged if the Braves faxed over an offer sheet and Furcal twisted his ankle on the steps and then they yanked it?

Nothing was signed. I can’t emphasize that enough. You do not have a deal until it’s signed.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 9:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Since you're not a baseball executive...

… I think I’ll take the word of those who say that a “term sheet” such as the one that was involved in this deal, has never before been reneged on, over yours.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 9:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Boras has

used teams against each other, and has declared imaginary offer sheets to drive up the prices. While I find this unethical, its still done. But there again, offer sheet, and term sheet are different.

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 9:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess the reason I have trouble feeling sorry for the Braves is...

….if they made the best offer for Furcal, then they would have signed him. It’s clear that he likes Atlanta (having a home there), however this is his JOB. This is what he does to make a living. He has the duty to do what’s best for him and his family. The Braves are complaining because they got outbid for the guy they wanted.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Dec 19, 2008 9:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Did they get outbid?

I’m not certain, but I thought the terms were similar.
Please correct me if I am wrong though.

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 9:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't even really look like they got outbid by all that much

It’s 3/30 million. The difference is a 4th year option that doesn’t get vested unless 600 plate appearances.

Which would indicate it’s less about money than about switching positions.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 9:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay

So let’s say it was about switching positions. He has the right to change his mind.

Yikes is this topic a window into our souls? Sorry folks, but the business world is a full contact sport. Both teams and players will act in their own self interest.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Dec 19, 2008 10:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, really?

Buster Olney’s blog

An American League GM recalled a situation in which an agent signed a letter of agreement. But then, as the paperwork reached the 1-yard line, the agent called and asked for more money, because another team had indicated interest. The agent said he had an obligation to his client to explore all options. "There was no chance I was going to improve our offer in those circumstances," the GM said.

So, it HAS happened before. Only this one was worse. The agent did the signing, not the team.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 9:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

"Letter of agreement" and "term sheet", I believe, are two different things.

Plus, you are citing ONE incident in how many years?

I’m done talking about this with you.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 9:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And Tellem is generally well-regarded

So, we have ONE incident from this guy too. Only THAT’S cause for boycotts, decertification, castration and God knows what else.

To me, a Letter of Agreement is worse because the agent signed it. The agent signed something and then said, “Wait, can I get more?”

In Furcal’s case, the team signed something and the player looked at it and said, “No.”

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 10:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone

know the results of what happened here?
Legally binding?

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 9:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course it isn't

MLB contracts aren’t binding until the commissioner approves the deals.

The Braves had nothing. This is them pissing and moaning about watching their two biggest prizes — Burnett and Furcal — sign with other teams.

This is them hoping their fans get outraged at the Evil Furcal and blame him for the Braves finishing no better than third next year.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 10:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Right. I'm sure if an agent could claim "collusion" over something like this

Scott Boras would have done so by now. There’s plenty of teams who won’t even consider drafting his players.

"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin

by davidalanu on Dec 19, 2008 6:20 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Trash

I was glad we didn’t sign Furcal then, and I am glad that the Braves didn’t get him now. Though I am not a fan, I respect the style of baseball they play. Trash like…. doesn’t deserve to be on a class act team.

by TheHawkRules on Dec 18, 2008 9:14 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Shut up, Schuerholz

And when you’re done, shut up some more.

You had no signatures. You had signed nothing. The commish’s office had approved nothing.

Furcal had every right to shop the offer to another team. I hope Tellem gets a player the Braves desperately want so they are exposed as the sanctimonious hypocrites they are.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 18, 2008 9:33 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

+.5

can’t say a plus 1 here, as kinzer and company looked like they at least crossed some sort of honorary line, but i think there’s something here. There’s a reason Wren was run out of his last GM job … he’s just not that good. say what you want about towers, braunecker, and kinzer, but the one constant on all three issues has been that wren has been involved. after seeing his act in baltimore, i’m just not sold wren is a good gm. I don’t think, unless a court case happens, we’ll know everything that happens, but it certainly feels like either he was a sucker that kept waiting at the door (or in this case, the fax machine) or he’s just not that good. i feel for the braves, always was a little partial to them due to tbs. this was a huge offseason for them, the chance to finally make some positive action and build for 2010 and beyond, and so far, it’s been a big fat zero for 3.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 9:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I haven't seen any story

That says Kinzer faxed the offer sheet he got from the Braves to the Dodgers. It said he “used” the offer.

In other words, he said. “Look, I got Atlanta at 3/30, but Rafael would like to be with you guys. He’ll take 3/30 from you. Can you do that?”

Grow the hairy frick up. People do that in all walks of life.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 18, 2008 9:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Even assuming you are correct about Wren

I don’t believe for a second that Schuerholz would have gone to the lengths he did if he didn’t legitimately feel that Kinzer was in the wrong. And Schuerholz has as good of a reputation as you’ll find.

"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin

by davidalanu on Dec 19, 2008 6:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

and while

you are certainly entitled to your opinion, the link just a few posts above yours points out that the step the Braves had taken, faxing a Term Sheet signed by them to a client is in essence a handshake agreement.

Several general managers and agents contacted by Yahoo! Sports said Thursday the term sheet constitutes a handshake agreement, and they couldn’t recall a situation when such an agreement was broken.

And it’s not just the GMs that feel that its essentially a done deal, the agents do as well.

by CubFan81 on Dec 18, 2008 9:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh well...

There IS no agreement until it’s signed. Period. First rule of life.

The Braves are crying because they lost the guy they wanted, not because of some dishonorable act. Had he done it to the Dodgers FOR them, they wouldn’t give two shits.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 18, 2008 9:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There are "rules of life"...

… and then there are consistent business practices that major league baseball teams do, and gentlemen’s agreements.

It IS a dishonorable act, whether YOU think so or not.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 8:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Al, you are buying the Braves' act hook, line and sinker

This is about losing their guy and losing face with their fans.

If this was some 400k a year utility player who bolted for 500k, you’d not hear a word about it.

I’m more disgusted by the Braves’ hypocrisy.

You get a signed contract. Otherwise, you have nothing. I guarantee that the Braves wouldn’t have used the term agreement for anything but toilet paper had a better option than Furcal came along.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 8:21 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Plain and simple, you're wrong.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 8:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I have to agree with Al

This was not an offer sheet, this was a term sheet.
The same type of agreement would be found in a real estate deal as well.
Once you have agreed to the terms and have requested the documents, you are generally agreeing to those terms. The Term Sheet is simply putting what you have agreed to in writing.
I do agree that it is not a signed agreement, therefore, not anything that could be upheld in a court of law.
But we are not dealing with a court of law, and this is only going to damage the credibility of Furcal and the Wasserman Group. Regardless of whether its a legally binding document or not.

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 8:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oooh...their crediblity is damaged

And when Soto becomes a free agent, 30 teams are gunning for him.

The church service ends when they next hot prospect comes.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 8:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But I'm not so sure

that this is as much of an Agent thing, as it is a player thing.
I must admit, while things look bad for Kinzer / Tellam, I’ve not heard of any issues like this with any other clients, or other agrents not named Boras.
So, although I think the agency does has some issues to work out with this deal,
I’m still left wondering if Furcal is more to blame than the agents.
I’m not defending either party, but it does seem a little odd that Furcal is the only one we have heard about this from.

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 8:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that may very well be true.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 8:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

According to Tellem...

(I realize that everyone is taking Schuerholz’ word as if it was etched on a stone tablet and Moses is carrying it… but there IS another side)

Furcal wanted to “sleep” on it and the Braves KNEW he wasn’t keen on playing 2B.

I’m sure he wanted to see if the Dodgers would pay him the same or even a little more and let him keep his position.

And an agent is SUPPOSED to take the bullet for the player. That’s what he’s paid for.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 8:50 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Then the agent's duty..

…. is to steer the client away from such an agreement. Tellem didn’t do that.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 8:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What?

To steer him away from a city he wants to stay in, a team that will pay him an equal amount and the position he wants to play????

Huh?

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 8:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe I didn't state that right.

If the Atlanta offer wasn’t the best for the player, it IS the agent’s responsibility to try to get him an offer that’s better.

In that case, the agent should have told Furcal NOT to take the Atlanta offer.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 9:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The agent ALSO works for the player

If Furcal told him, “I don’t like it. The 2B thing is just too much” even after the offer sheet, then Tellem is bound to do what his client wants.

You’re blaming Furcal in other portions of this thread. You’re blaming the agent when dealing with me.

Pick a side.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 9:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Both are at fault here.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 9:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Its also normal

that when speaking about a player and negotiations, to see the agent and the player as the same entity.

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 10:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

John Schuerholz

I respect and admire John Schuerholz probably more than any other GM or executive in baseball even more than Hendry and the fact that people compare Hendry to him makes my heart feel good for the future of the Cubs.

If it was any other GM I’d question it more to tell you the truth.

And it was the Dodgers involved both times with this same agent and player. A few years ago the Cubs now the Braves.

MaIne South Hawks 2008 Class 8a Champs!

by cubstoseriesby100 on Dec 19, 2008 9:14 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well.. that's crap

From Buster Olney’s blog

An American League GM recalled a situation in which an agent signed a letter of agreement. But then, as the paperwork reached the 1-yard line, the agent called and asked for more money, because another team had indicated interest. The agent said he had an obligation to his client to explore all options. “There was no chance I was going to improve our offer in those circumstances,” the GM said.

So it HAS happened before. I hope the Braves keep it up. They are just making themselves whiny laughingstocks.

One less NL team for the Cubs to worry about.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 18, 2008 9:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Olney

1. That is not the same situation at all. If you can’t see the difference, then there is no point in discussing it further with you.

2. There IS such a thing as business ethics, something you seem to be totally ignorant about.

by azjazzman on Dec 18, 2008 10:11 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

+1

Demp and Rich: proof that people that live in igloos and say "eh" can contibute!

by Canadian Cubs Fan on Dec 18, 2008 11:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh please

In Olney’s story, an agent SIGNED a letter of agreement and backed out. If anything, that’s worse than receiving a signed letter from the team. Neither Furcal nor Furcal’s people signed anything.

Go polish your halo somewhere else. In the real world, people play businesses against each other all the time.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 6:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Remind me never to make a business deal with you.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2008 8:11 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Haha!

And I hope the rest of the sharks smell the blood in the water and start picking off Tellem/Kinzer’s clients one by one by one.

by Cubinator on Dec 19, 2008 12:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

With your love for Furcal's agents

With your deep and abiding love for Furcal’s agent and your assumption that we’d love it if the Cubs were the Dodgers how about this.

Let’s say there were 2 free agent SSs out there. The Cubs are interested in both.

They have this signed sheet with player A and stop talking about player B.

Another team signs player A and before it hits the fan player B is also signed.

MaIne South Hawks 2008 Class 8a Champs!

by cubstoseriesby100 on Dec 19, 2008 9:21 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Until they have a signed contract

They have nothing.

Furcal signed NOTHING. The Braves signed a piece of paper that prevented them from saying, “Oh, wait, we meant 4 years/30 million, not 3 years/30 million”

You seal the deal. When Tellem told them his guy wanted to think about it, they should NOT have assumed it was a deal. Someone in the Braves assumed they had him and now they are burned.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 9:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A side note to the OT

but it’s a shame the Cubs can’t somehow take advantage of this situation. I’d offer up the usual “Let’s spin Mark DeRosa to the Braves for some other chips to spin in a trade” … but there doesn’t seem to be any brewing trades sitting around that need a 3rd team as of right now that would make dealing DeRosa worthwhile. Marquis seems like the type of arm they could use for one year (innings eating, stopgap, short term arm), but well, there’s his history in Atlanta.

by toonsterwu on Dec 18, 2008 11:03 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

No respect

I think it’s becoming more and more apparent that the players and their agents have absolutely no respect for the organizations that sign their overinflated paychecks.

Sure, the deal wasn’t finalized, but it seems to me that Furcal & Co. crossed some sort of ethical line here, breaking an unwritten rule.

Players are starting to piss me off. Like when Manny pulled his crap in Boston, not putting in effort, whining about respect, and saying that paying him astronomically for the last several years was not showing respect. Give me a break.

I think many people here calling the Braves crybabies would be singing a different tune if it were the Cubs that had such an offer sheet signed and faxed.

Just my opinion. Things are never dull in MLB, that’s for sure!

Demp and Rich: proof that people that live in igloos and say "eh" can contibute!

by Canadian Cubs Fan on Dec 18, 2008 11:04 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

And I think people here

Would be overjoyed if a player the Cubs coveted backed out of another team’s deal to sign with the Cubs.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 6:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Another interesting issue

I heard on the radio this morning that the Red Sox publicly stated that they were out of the running for Texiera. I think the Red Sox make statements often to set the PR table for their fans (something the Cubs could learn from).

However, a back story of the statement is that Texiera is a Boras client. The public statement that “that we are not going to be a factor” clearly tells other teams that Boston is out of the running and prevents Boras from telling other teams that he is negotiation with Boston and that Boston has a higher bid.

by TC Cubby on Dec 19, 2008 6:51 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

The Red Sox

Boras has:

J.D. Drew; Varitek; Dice-K; Manny; Texeira; Derek Lowe and Johnny Damon.

He’s done business with them for years. Sometimes he gets them — he screwed them over Damon and sometimes they get him — They called Dice-K’s bluff.

You don’t see them going all trippy over it.

Could be why they’ve won two titles in four years and the Braves are the Buffalo Bills of baseball.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 6:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying it is conclusive of anything

it is just interesting that the Red Sox made such a proactive statement. If the Red Sox were in your camp of hardball negotiating, they would have kept quiet, as it would benefit them to have another organization bid higher and lock up more of its resources for Texiera. My hunch is that the Red Sox are either trying to inject more transparency in the negiating process overall, or are sick of Boras’ style after the whole manny episode.

by TC Cubby on Dec 19, 2008 7:22 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No...they aren't making it personal

Like the fans here.

They know Boras’ style. They are countering it. It’s not personal. It’s business.

The Braves are making it personal, which is why the Red Sox will win four more World Series’ before the Braves sniff one.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 7:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There must be more to it than business

again, if it was “business,” as you prefer to skew that word, the Sox would have never said anything and let another team overpay. In fact, if you were running the Sox, you would have planted an untrue rumor that you had a high offer out to Texiera, in hopes that the Angels or some other team would unknowingly bid against an untrue offer.

by TC Cubby on Dec 19, 2008 9:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And if you plant that untrue rumor

Then your fans wonder why the hell you didn’t get him.

At this point, whether the Angels pay $160million or $170 million is pretty immaterial to the Sox.

They are saying, “We’re out”

Other teams say, “Hey, the Sox are out, we can remain rock-solid in our offers and not go up.”

Then the Sox swoop in and say, “Hey, we found the money to give you $2 million more than the highest deal. Guess we’re not out after all”

They aren’t in a bidding war.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 9:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Here is a fascinating list of Tellem/Klinzer clients

http://www.wmgllc.com/

Ramirez, Soto and Reed Johnson are on that list. They’ve also got Derrick Rose.

Chicago teams better not get too much religion here. I WANT to keep Ramirez, Soto and Rose.

But thankfully, our guys are real businessmen.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 8:24 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Boras

And Maddux is a Boras client so class acts can come out of any agent’s stable.

MaIne South Hawks 2008 Class 8a Champs!

by cubstoseriesby100 on Dec 19, 2008 9:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Worf, you're missing the point

By now, if you don’t get why people would back the Braves position on this you probably never will. The day “real businessmen” can’t sit across a table and rely on a gentleman’s agreement is the day that scummy lawyers (exhibit A: Tellem/Kinzer) rise up and rule the earth.

by Cubinator on Dec 19, 2008 9:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I actually see both points

But even in the world of business law and ethics, a verbal agreement can, and usually is the initial basis for an agreement. Thats not to say that people can’t legally back out of these agreements.
Is it unethical? Absolutely.
Does it violate any laws? No.
However, I think that it will create some unneeded tension for future WG clients, fair or not.

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 10:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Minus

the ethics. LOL.
I was wondering if anyone would comment on using those 2 in the same sentence.

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 10:14 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely it's legal

And yet it is a happy circumstance to live in a world where man isn’t reliant on government to impose all his morals through the codification of law. Woe to us if and when everyone conducts themselves as does Kinzer.

by Cubinator on Dec 19, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A "verbal agreement" is a contract

unless it runs counter to the statute of frauds (certain contracts must be in writing) … I run across clients all the time who want to argue that they had an agreement but not a contract, since it was never put in writing

Further, thanks for distinguishing “scummy lawyers” from just plain lawyers :)

by TC Cubby on Dec 19, 2008 10:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't sure

if, in this instance, the verbal agreement actually constituted a contract at this point. Not being versed in the collective bargaining agreement, and such.
I know there are fickle rules by which baseball gets around some things in the normal world.
Sneaky, but I see Boras, King Bud, and now Kinzer as the same type now.

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 10:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

haha

It’s proving that there was a meeting of the minds that is the tricky part, iirc. But yeah, lawyers are important…it’s just the scummy ones we could do without >.<

by Cubinator on Dec 19, 2008 11:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If I'm not mistaken...

…a similar thing happened with the Cubs before he signed with the Dodgers. It appeared he was ready to sign with the Cubs and then at the last minute, he went with the Dodgers.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Dec 19, 2008 10:44 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Yes

but from my recollection, there was no term sheet sent. Furcal was weighing his options at the time.

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 10:46 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

By the way...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/12/19/red.sox.teixeira/index.html

Red Sox still in the hunt for Texiera.

People really have to stop putting personal motives on these people. They want money. The owners want to spend less and the players want to get more.

It’s only fans who have this dream that these people dislike each other. Schuerholz will change his tune the second Geovanny Soto or someone else he wants goes on the market.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 11:21 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

And another thing

Some of the national baseball writers — Heyman; Rosenthal and Olney - are saying that the A’s had the highest total offer - 4/40m and they weren’t even considered.

Guess the “greedy player and agent” had something else in mind besides money.

But go ahead, keeping buying the Braves’ line. They are hoping their fans do. No Peavy, no Burnett and now no Furcal.

They used to compete for division titles. Now they have to worry about staying above the Nationals.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 11:32 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that most of us

ever believed it was about the money. 4/40 to play up the road in Oakland would have been the biggest number.
I think its the fact that someone felt there was a verbal agreement, and someone was wrong in what was done.
However, since none of us were actually in the middle of negotiations, we can only speculate as to who is right in this.
We have also been trained to see agents in the same light as Boras, which is also not always true.
I think in this case its going to be all about perception, unless some irrefutable evidence comes about that proves / disproves any and all of the claims by both parties.

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 11:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Nope.

$33/3 > $40/4, and that’s without the Dodgers’ 2012 option of $13MM.

by Flatley on Dec 19, 2008 12:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

40 is greater than 33

Baseball contracts guaranteed, remember?

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 12:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

My Bad

I keep thinking that it was 4/44 for some reason. But the 4th year @ 13 does make it a bigger contract.

by chrisw95 on Dec 19, 2008 12:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It depends on your perspective.

If Furcal thinks he will be worth more than $7M / season in 2012, then the Dodgers contract will earn him more money.

You can’t just compare the total value of the contracts. The A’s deal was worth more in guaranteed dollars, but inhibited his earning potential for 2012.

by Wreckard on Dec 19, 2008 1:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Far point

also, if he stays with L.A., his 10/5 no-trade rights kick in. Could be worth it down road

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 1:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Two sides to every story

The way the Braves are reacting (over reacting if you ask me), I figured there was an equally good argument on the side of Wasserman. Here you go

http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/hot_stove/posts/33941?eref=fromSI

I think they are trying to appease their fans. First they come up short on Peavy. Then Burnett. Now on Furcal. Yikes!

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Dec 19, 2008 12:03 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

But...but...

Players are greedy and evil and agents are greedier and eviller!

They should just trust these benevolent masters to do the right thing all the time! They should just all sign blank contracts!

This doesn’t fit the narrative!!!!

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 12:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So you're telling me

A team has never done this same thing to a player?! Gasp!

Team – “Player X, it seems like we have an agreement.”

Agent – “Player Y wants to play for your team and he’s better than Player X.”

Team – “Sorry Player X, we’d rather have Player Y. Now go away and pound sand.”

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Dec 19, 2008 12:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure why

you are so interested in making those who disagree with you seem naive. To act as though no business can be conducted until a contract is signed is ridiculous. If I couldn’t trust my vendors’ word, or if my client’s couldn’t trust mine, my business would come to a halt. Of course, contracts are involved, but most of the work comes way before a contract is signed.

In the very most basic sense you are correct, the end goal is a contract. It is also correct that any business has standards and accepted practices, and while some of these may not be in writing, they are understood by those in that business. When they are violated, trust with those individuals is lost. If one entity cannot trust the other, business between them becomes strained, and often stops. That’s basically all the Braves are saying- they can’t trust the agents, so they won’t do business with them.

"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin

by davidalanu on Dec 19, 2008 4:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

You can screw over all of the people some of the time.

You can screw over some of the people all of the time.

If you try to screw over all of the people all of the time, the only person you wind up screwing over for all-time is yourself.

Bleed Cubbie Blue: Like Drāno for your internet tubes.

by znohitter on Dec 19, 2008 4:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And I'm saying...

That this “boycott” will end as soon as it’s convenient.

Had a 500k player done this, no one would have cared.

This is about yelling at Furcal, making him the bad guy and hoping the fans still blame him next September, when the Braves are playing meaningless games and watching the Phillies and Mets fight it out for the division. (And maybe the Marlins)

I get that some businesses rely on verbal deals. I even get that Wren and Schuerholz might feel a little ticked. I’ll even get that Furcal and Tellem pushed the envelope.

But I do not believe for a second the sanctimonious whining from the Braves.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 19, 2008 5:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Braves are a pretty classy outfit ..

For them to step out and make very public an abrupt turn of face by Furcal says more about their outrage over being stiffed by the Boras Machine and having egg on their face them then being sanctimonious.

There’s some things of “honor” regarding verbal contracts that still matter to clubs when in the brutal arena of negotiations with an MLB star. But while Boras and Furcal technically did nothing “unethical,” they did indeed – as the cartoon said – piss and run on the Braves by doing what they did. davidalanu is on target with this one.

And yeah, I think Furcal is going to rue the day he’s done this.

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Dec 20, 2008 8:53 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

That's all purty

but it wasn’t Boras

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 20, 2008 11:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Correct.

Replace “Boras” with “Kinzer” and he’s got it exactly right.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 20, 2008 1:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Except for the other parts

which are dead wrong.

By the way, the MLBPA is already on the case. They aren’t going to allow a player to be discriminated against because of who he chose to hire as an agent.

And lo and behold, the Braves are now hiding behind “no comments” and “we just want this story to die”

Cubs got fined 500k last year for improper bargaining. Sounds about right for these clowns.
Schuerholz did not respond to a telephone message left Friday by The Associated Press.

Wren wouldn’t say if the Braves would stick by their stance of refusing to conduct business with Tellem’s clients.

“I’m not going to revisit it,” Wren told The Associated Press on Friday. “John and I discussed it. It just doesn’t do any good to keep this story alive. We’re moving forward. I’m not going to go backward.”

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/12/19/braves.furcal.ap/index.html

So they stomp their feet and shout “despicable” and “disgusting” like they are Daffy Duck on vodka tonics and then scamper away like cowards when the other side tells its story.

THAT is who you’re defending.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 20, 2008 3:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't read that as "scampering away like cowards".

I read that as “We’re moving on”. The writer’s the one who implied they weren’t sticking to thier stance.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 20, 2008 3:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes...they are "moving on"

Funny how they want to do that once Furcal’s side comes out with its story, and it sounds a lot more reasonable.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Dec 21, 2008 12:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, the Cubs' issue is far different...

… as it had to do with improper slotting payments that weren’t reported.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 20, 2008 3:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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Cubs By The Numbers

Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.

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