A potential Nightmare baseball scenario? Involving who else, the Yankees
As we usher in the holiday season of gift giving, and togetherness. I couldn't help but notice a potential nightmare scenario involving the New York Yankees.
Now most baseball fans loathe the Yankees, I do almost to a level of the hatred reserved for the White Sox.
And we've already seen the Evil empire throw a ton of money at CC and Burnett. But what if.
And this is a huge what if. The Yankees where to sign both Manny Ramirez and Mark Texeria??
Could you imagine a team with A-Rod, Tex, Manny and Jeter?
Having read some of the reports about Tex and Manny this nightmare hopefully isnt as close as Im envisioning it too be.
Or is it?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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86 comments
Comments
Imagine juggling egos in that clubhouse. . .
by Seattle Cubs Fan on Dec 20, 2008 10:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
While i acknowledge there is little chance this happens:
Its still downright scary too say the least. It seems like the Yankees are hell bent on winning a championship, Yet they should know that buying one most often times doesnt work out too well.
by Galvan316 on Dec 20, 2008 10:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
REVAMP THE YANKEE CLUBHOUSE
First off they would have to make all entryways much larger to allow their big heads into the respective rooms ….But of course money is no object is it ????
by cubs north on Dec 20, 2008 11:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don't get the hate for the Yankees
They do what all fanbases want their organization to do: they spend money on players. So they have more money to spend than everybody else. Does that make them different? No. Our beloved Cubs are no different. I bet everybody here would jump for joy if we had to money to get Teixeira and Sabathia.
by Luis on Dec 20, 2008 11:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You're right!
A lot of it is jealousy. My distaste for the Yankees comes from all the front-running morons who sport Yankee caps and jerseys across the country. 9 times out of 10, these people can’t name their 3 outfielders or their starting rotation. Also, many NYY fans I’ve encountered over time are extraordinarily arrogant and obnoxious.
I look forward to watching them flop once again in October. Look at C.C.‘s October ERA — He’ll get lit up in game 1, Burnett will be on the D.L. by then, Joba will be back to the bullpen by then, Wang will probably win game three, but Pettitte will be out of gas by October and get manhandled in game 4. It’ll be GREAT!
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
by calicubfan on Dec 20, 2008 11:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who gives a rat's ass about someone wearing a Yankee cap. As a Cub fan, the Yankees are the farthest thing
from my mind. They play in another league in another part of the country. What they do has as little bearing on what happens with my team as when the king of Spain decides to take a dump has to do with my life. I don’t understand this ridiculous obsession with what happens with the Yankees. Who cares? Besides, how many stupid jackasses have we seen sporting Cub caps on TV and in print the past couple of years. People are probably saying the same thing about those knuckleheads.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 22, 2008 8:50 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That was beautiful...
the King of Spain thing. I don’t feel the holiday spirit in you, willie :-)
by Fonzie2178 on Dec 23, 2008 12:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I wish the Cubs had management with the desire to win that any player is an option. Payroll is not an option. I love Kerry Wood and it killed me to have to see him go due to “payroll concerns”. I HATE the Yankee’s, but it’s just jealousy over their managments commitment to win!
by Grace17 on Dec 21, 2008 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It doesnt matter what New York does..
The Yanks were at their best in the mid 90’s when they had a bunch of “clubhouse” guys mixed in with homegrown talent and a few well paid stars.
Everyone talks about how unfair it is what they do, but since George started heavily buying everyone in the late 90s- what have they really won.
by MattHaggard on Dec 20, 2008 11:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It's just a matter of time
Until the Yankess win a championship with this so called “buying” philosophy that they are being criticized for. And btw, they are not only buying, they are being smart and care about their farm. Just look at last year, they decided to keep their young guys rather than trade them for Santana. Now they get to keep their farm guys and get a Santana caliber pitcher in Sabathia. Fact of the matter is they are doing exactly what every team out there is doing, the difference is they just have more money. Give Billy Bean 100 more million dollars for the payroll and I don’t think he’s going to tell you “no thanks, I don’t need it”.
by Luis on Dec 20, 2008 11:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
But its also a matter of time until Beane wins one with his philosophy. Hell, look at the Rays. They nearly snuck a Championship with the same philosophy they’ve utilized for a decade.
But you’re right. If you keep spending, you will eventually get a championship. Their talent quality wins on paper every time. And more often than not, they win on the field to.
by MattHaggard on Dec 20, 2008 11:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As you correctly point out...
… the spending spree did allow them to make the playoffs every year (until last year). It does allow you to be a perennial contender.
But it cannot guarantee you a championship. There is too much luck involved.
That said, I cannot see them signing both Teixeira and Manny.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 21, 2008 3:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Personally,
I’d like to see the Cubs be the Yankees of the National League — 28 Championships….I’ll take that. The Cubs franchise should have been as competitive, but was not for way too many boneheaded reasons to recite here.
I do not, never have, never will hate the Yankees. I’ll leave that for the Red Sox fans and the pissant small markets who are jealous. (Many small markets are jealous of the Cubs. How can you be jealous of a team that hasn’t freakin’ won anything???)
I admire the success of Yankees. Their fans are pissed because they haven’t won a World Series in 10 years….10 years….they expect, and demand success.
We should desire the same.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 20, 2008 11:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I believe NYY have won 26 titles...
…as to your question: “How can you be jealous of a team that hasn’t freakin’ won anything???” I think it’s exactly that — the fact that we haven’t won anything but the fans stick around — fill the seats, buy the merchandise, tune into WGN, etc. Those small markets would give ANYTHING to have such a following
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
by calicubfan on Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And most of us would give the market and the following for a Series ring.
So it works out… sort of… except not.
Bleed Cubbie Blue: Like Drāno for your internet tubes.
by znohitter on Dec 21, 2008 12:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the cubs were once the yanks of the NL
Back in the 20s, 30s, and 40s, the Cubs were actually considered to be the Yankees of the National League. Back in the day when they had Gabby Hartnett, Hack Wilson, Stan Hack, Billy Herman, Claude Passeau, Phil Cavaretta, Andy Pafko, etc. The Cubs were the Yanks of the NL but every time the Cubs got to the Series, they faced… the Yankees (and the Tigers, and the Athletics) which is a big reason why the Cubs are on the streak they’re on.
Even the Dodgers went like 0 for 6 in the Series until 1955 because they always faced the Yankees. In fact, I give credit to the Dodgers for the famous saying: “Wait ’til Next Year”. I know it’s difficult to give credit to the Dodgers for anything since last October being a Cubs fan and all.
"Oh baby!" - Len Casper
by #1 iowan cubs fan on Dec 21, 2008 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Where are you getting this-both Tex and Manny?
I havent read they would sign both
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Dec 20, 2008 11:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It's a "What if" post
And I seriously doubt it’ll happen
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
by calicubfan on Dec 20, 2008 11:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought there was an actual story
Well if they signed both, that wouldnt be a nightmare, b/c the CC and AJ signings are sure to blow up in their faces anyway….and would create more problems; where would Manny play? One of him or Matsui would have to play, assuming Tex is at 1B, swisher in CF….then what would they do with Damon? He cant play RF, neither can Manny or Godzilla
so its not a nightmare, its not even realistic unless they could trade Matsui.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Dec 21, 2008 9:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Every story I've heard about this
is that the Yankees would swoop in on Manny if:
1) No other teams had jumped on him
2) It was a one-year deal only
Not even the Yankees are giving Manny multiple years.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Dec 21, 2008 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the players and their agents
are using the media and yankees to drive up their prices and speed up any potential offers.
Dear Santa:: All I want for X-mas this year is an official 2009 Jake Peavy Cubs Jersey. Oh and a Beimel one too. I've been a real good guy for the most part!!!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 20, 2008 11:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
jeter is not a threat
not anymore
by scarymonsters85 on Dec 20, 2008 11:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
If I had to choose an AL team to root for, the Yanks would be it.
I hate the White Sux. I severely dislike the Braves (as a result of my mother’s parents, who live in NC and have followed the Braves since they moved to Atlanta), though hate would be too strong a word. I enjoy watching the Brewers and Astros lose. And too many of the Red Sox fans I know turned into complete douchebags when they won the ‘07 Series (no offense to any BoSox fans who may be reading; if you’re on BCB, I’m sure you’re not a douchebag).
I don’t much care for the Steinbrenners, nor do I like the way the team seems to sign about half of the players available in any given offseason, and some of their fans are really annoying (though not, in my experience, as bad as Red Sox fans, except the ones who are reading this). But I like the history of the Yankees. They are a strong team year in and year out. They epitomize the large-market mentality more than any other team in professional sports. They sign big names and win big games (usually). And their uniforms don’t look too bad, either. They have been, for many years, are now, and will continue to be the standard by which other teams are measured. They’re like the anti-Cubs, in a way.
Bleed Cubbie Blue: Like Drāno for your internet tubes.
by znohitter on Dec 20, 2008 11:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
+1
Aside from the Steinbrenner’s obnoxious ways at times, particularlly Hank as of late ( whining about teams with weak records qualifying for the playoffs because they play in weaker divisions, or leaving Joe Torre’s name out of the Yankee Stadium farewell thing, etc) mostly everything they do is classy. I also agree on their uniforms — after all these years, they’ve remained practically unchanged — very plain and conservative
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
by calicubfan on Dec 21, 2008 12:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
-1
Modern day Yankees fans and BoSox fans are distinguishable solely by the jersey they wear.
by Cubinator on Dec 21, 2008 5:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
-1 to your -1 (which makes it either a -2 or a 0? I'm confused...)
Start singing “Sweet Caroline” to a Yankees fan and see what happens.
Bleed Cubbie Blue: Like Drāno for your internet tubes.
by znohitter on Dec 21, 2008 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Yankees bought titles in 1977 and 1978
They went out and nabbed Catfish and Reggie.
It IS possible to buy a title. Lots of teams have done it. The Marlins did it twice.
I disagree with your premise. “Most” fans do not hate the Yankees. That’s just you projecting.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Dec 21, 2008 12:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Marlins Bought It in 1997, But...
didn’t in 2003. In 1997, the Fish had free agents Moises Alou, Bobby Bonilla, Alex Fernandez, and Kevin Brown. In 2003, the only big free agent name they had was Ivan Rodriguez.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 21, 2008 7:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
George Steinbrenner has proven you can go out and buy a champion. I admire the Yankees. They are singular in focus…win the World Series, period.
by BLou on Dec 21, 2008 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And just how well have they done with that the last eight years?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 21, 2008 8:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would pray...
that the Yankees would in fact get CC, AJ, Manny, Tex, and have Jeter. In 3 years…what the hell are they going to do? They’ll have a payroll of 300 million dollars a year, and all but one of those guys (Tex) will be the only productive player…LOL.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 21, 2008 1:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
If the Yanks nab Tex
the Brewers only get a 2nd round pick (I think). Good for us =)
by Cubinator on Dec 21, 2008 5:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wish baseball
would go to a basketball type of salary cap. Baseball, as a whole, would be so much better to watch.
by JPetey on Dec 21, 2008 1:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Then there better damn well be
A salary floor.
It’s disgusting that the Marlins spend $15 million. They get more than that in luxury tax money.
Spend $60 million or get out. There is no “right” to own a baseball team.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Dec 21, 2008 7:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
At the very least, state that a team should get nothing in the way of revenue sharing, if it doesn’t spend a minimum amount of money.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Dec 21, 2008 8:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Now on this, I would agree.
If the owners would agree to a salary floor, I’d bet they’d get somewhere with asking for a cap.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 21, 2008 10:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tried already
The players, who aren’t stupid, realize that philosophically, a floor is the precursor for a cap.
I have mixed feelings about caps. I think they work well for competitive balance, but I think they can also be a detriment to team cohesion and fan interest.
I think the NBA was strongest when teams could re-sign their own guys at any price. Otherwise, Bird, Magic and Jordan all end up on other teams or on teams that can’t afford anyone else.
The NBA is proof that competitive balance is overrated. Since 1980, six teams — Celtics, Lakers, Bulls, Rockets, Pistons and Spurs, have won all but two titles. (The 83 Sixers and the 06 Heat are the exceptions)
In the 80s, the foursome of Sixers, Lakers, Celtics and Pistons carried the league. In the 90s, the power of Jordan, plus the fact that the Western Conference WAS very competitive, carried it.
Now, a players team can offer the most, but it isn’t unlimited. Teams are constantly wiggling around looking for space and picking up contracts like Keith Van Horn’s. It’s annoying.
In the NFL, beloved, solid veterans with very strong ties to a community are cut for nothing more than cap reasons. I’ve long been in favor of a 10/50 rule.
If a guy spends 10 years with one team, his salary only counts 50 percent against the cap. 15 years, then it only counts 75 percent. And if that once-in-generation player comes up who makes it 20 years (Jackie Slater; a couple of kickers) then he is free.
Baseball will never get a cap. But if they do, I’d like to see some thought put into it. Knowing baseball, that will never happen.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Dec 21, 2008 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably so.
There are, as you hint, ways to do it that would benefit both players and management. But I won’t hold my breath waiting for them to figure it out.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 21, 2008 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
hmm - an intriguing, non-argumentative, well thought out, non-confrontational comment...
Who are you and what have you done with Worf? ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Dec 21, 2008 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Shut up!
And when you’re done, shut up some more!
Better? :)
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Dec 21, 2008 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Much better - thank you.
Brings to mind a scene from Star Trek TNG where Q says to Worf…
“Growl for me! Let me know you still care.”
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Dec 21, 2008 1:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nonsense
We both know baseball is nothing more than a business for ownership and the ownership group will do whatever it takes to turn a profit. It’s pretty simple…if one’s business (say, the marlins) makes only $20M they need to only pay out $15M to make a profit.
But it’s also a well-connected support network – think about the current bailout mania by the government – insurance companies, wall street, banks, automobile manufacturers, why do you suppose they get these handouts? Because they are connected and have friends. This notion that one must be competitive or get out is a wonderful free market notion, but just as much of a mirage in baseball as it is in American business.
it’s who you know and who will support you. There is no competition.
WOXY.com - The Future of Rock and Roll
by Gibbon Jockey on Dec 21, 2008 4:39 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Why?!
Why would it be better to watch? What do players salaries have to do with watching them perform?!
I wish individual player salary information wash kept private. It is fodder for big headlines and sports radio nonsense, in my opinion. Currently MLB players receive a smaller proportion of revenue than at any point in the last 15 years. So, why is it more appealing to have wealthy owners?
In case you believe that ticket prices are influenced by salaries- here is an article that addresses that falacy. Pricing is always a matter of supply and demand.
"Baseball is like church- many attend, few understand." ~ Leo Durocher
by The Lip on Dec 21, 2008 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yanks
carefull hank.buying a world series ring has,nt worked for 8 yrs.
by NOMAR on Dec 21, 2008 7:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Who cares?
They’ll still be the same injury prone team with a dearth of OF defense.
It is what it is. The Yankees have the right to spend as much as they want. It’s a business. There’s something to be said for team chemistry, smart purchases, and a little bit of luck.
"Thank god I threw out my belt & shoelaces."-Bernies Mustache Wax on Evil BCB, 7/31/08
by Bildo1805 on Dec 21, 2008 3:15 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I have great respect for the Yankees
26 World Championships speaks for itself, to include 6 since George Steinbrenner bought the team. How can you make fun of an organization who enters every season with one mission, to win a World Series? I sure can’t.
by BLou on Dec 21, 2008 4:56 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Let's see.
It was exactly 40 seasons between 1923, when the Yankees won their first WS, to 1962, when they won their last in the pre-Steinbrenner era. They won 20 WS in that time — that’s an average of every other year.
Steinbrenner bought the Yankees in 1973. That’s 36 seasons, six WS titles — one every six years.
Arguably, the Yankees have been WORSE under Steinbrenner.
You see the fallacy of this argument, I am sure.
You cannot buy a championship. It is not possible. All you can do is buy the CHANCE to win. Yes, they’ve done that, and I think the last two years the Cubs have focused that way. Let’s hope new ownership keeps that up.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 21, 2008 8:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A few fallacies
Free agency made it harder to keep teams together. The Yankees are the ONLY team since 1973 to win more than 3.
The A’s and the Reds have each won three since 1973 (A’s won in 1972 as well), but they won two each before the major free agency rulings came down.
And only the Twins, Blue Jays and Red Sox won multiple titles with many of the same players. The others, such as Cardinals in 82 and 06 and Phillies in 80 and 08, were a generation apart.
The notion “You can’t buy a championship” is Hallmark card folderol. If you buy a “Chance” to win and then you win, then you’ve bought a championship.
The Diamondbacks bought a title when they signed Schilling and Johnson. The Marlins bought two. The Red Sox have bought two.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Dec 22, 2008 7:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And the Mets and Tigers tried to buy titles and failed.
I’m not saying you SHOULDN’T spend to TRY to win. Of course you should, and the Cubs have in the last two years.
But as we have seen, doing that guarantees nothing.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 22, 2008 8:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I appreciate your arguments
That said, I don’t know how anybody can poke fun of the Yankees. Especially someone who roots for a franchise with a 101 year record of futility. 26 World Series Championships speaks volumes. So too does the 10 World Series Championships they have down in St. Louis.
The Steinbrenners are singular in mission. Oh how I would love for the Cubs to have that sort of passion for winning.
by BLou on Dec 22, 2008 8:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You are correct Al, spending a bunch of money guarantees nothing, You should also add
that not spending enough money guarantees something, you won’t win.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 22, 2008 8:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you sure about that?
Didn’t Tampa Bay just win the AL East and go to the W.S.? They didn’t spend all that much compared to the rest of their league
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
by calicubfan on Dec 22, 2008 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're missing the point. Tampa doesn't go out of their way
to not spend money like the Marlins do. Tampa has a lot of good young players and added one or two veterans to help bring some stability. They are not pocketing revenue because they are too cheap to pay it. The only way a small-market team like Tampa can compete is by developing their own players and hoping they mature before they leave for greener pastures. That scenario is different from a team that has revenue but doesn’t want to spend it on their players.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 22, 2008 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right...
…Tampa does have a lot of good young players. But this is the same team that lost 96 games in ’07. I know they added Cliff Floyd and maybe another veteran, but in NO way did they, or anyone else, expect the season they had. My point is that sometimes, a team with very low payroll lucks out and wins. All I said was that a low payroll does not ALWAYS “guarantee” a horrible team
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
by calicubfan on Dec 22, 2008 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
…that spending big money (with some logic) gives you a better chance to win, and the Red Sox, Yankees are good examples of that. With that said, the Marlins bought the championship in 97, but not the one in 03. In the end, it is about the right mix of talent and even though there is a huge difference between the highest/lowest payrolls, it has been proven good solid player development, along with a couple shrewed moves, can get you a championship.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Dec 23, 2008 1:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
nightmare scenario
seems a bit strong.
itd be interesting to watch all those big names in one place
---AC 00 00 00 - Believe
by mjk83 on Dec 22, 2008 9:01 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yup, and as an extreme anti-fan of the Yankees,
watching all those contracts fester and age will be a delight.
I don’t get excited on a daily basis with a Yankee loss, but thoroughly enjoy watching the drama when the team underperforms to expectations.
If they are able to sign all this talent, the expectations will be at critical mass for years and Yankee ownership will erupt without multiple series winners. Joy.
by N Oakley on Dec 22, 2008 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the whole thing makes me SICK....
..really. I feel myself becoming more disinterested with baseball by the day as this offseason unfolds. Face it- for the 2009 season, baseball will only matter to you if you’re a Yankees or Red Sox fan. One of these teams, I assure you, will have bought themselves a championship this coming fall. If the yanks add Ramirez and the Bosox add Texieria? Everyone else will be competing for 2nd, I fear. I feel bad for Tampa; I know they’re still young, etc., but I wonder if they had their one shot this past fall. It was a year when they unexpectedly were up, and the Yanks, for one season, were down. I don’t see em making the playoffs again next year, as both teams are reloading in their anger. Too bad, really.
And I hate to be negative, but I fear the Cubs had their shot this year too, and they blew it. I expect them to win their division again, but this was the year to win it all, with a strong team on our side and the other contenders not as strong.
I just hate the Yankees and Red Sox so much, I can’t even put it into words. Jealousy? Of course. I sure hope someone else picks up Ramirez and Texieria, or I will lose much of my interest. It’s so ridiculous, the arms race between these teams that never ends, and which makes the other teams increasingly irrelevant coming into this season. I wish baseball could change this system, but it’ll never happen.
Am I the only one who feels this way?
by reedjohnson on Dec 22, 2008 10:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I have a question, can you really fault these teams for spending the amount of money they
spend on salaries if it reflects the amount of revenue they are receiving? Would you feel better if the owners of these teams take the money that the fans are providing and put it in their pockets? These people are billionaires and are you advocating giving them more money? If the money is not spent on salary, it’s not going to go to the office workers or the ground crew.
I for one, am glad these teams are spending the money on the players. The deserve it. I don’t pay my ticket money to see an owner. The players are the attraction and they should receive the largest percentage of the revenue. MLB has to figure out a way to support the small market teams, but don’t curse the large market teams for spending the money on the players. They are the ones that the fans are showing up to see.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 22, 2008 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
It’s fashionable to bash the Yankees and the Red Sox, and to make claim they are ruining baseball. That’s a load of garbage. Both organizations are singular in purpose, and that is to go out and win a World Series every season. And while both franchises have big payrolls, they also are smartly run organizations that have invested heavily on player acquisition and development. Current product of the Yankee farm system includes Pettitte, Rivera, Chamberlin, Hughes, Kennedy, Jeter, Cano, Cabrera, Posada. Plus they have historically traded away major prospects to acquire other players. Current product of teh Red Sox farm system includes Lester, Bucholz, Papelbon, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youklis. Plus they too have traded away major prospects (e.g., Hanley Ramirez) to acquire other players.
I admire the daylights out of the Yankees (and Red Sox, though I root a bit for the Yankees). How can you not. And isn’t it just a tad ironic and hypocrital for Cub fans to be lamenting the way the Yankees try to win?? After all the Cubs haven’t won a World Series since 1908. And aren’t we the ballclub that gave a whopping $136 million to a guess hitting hack in left field (who by the way is yet another Yankee farmhand)???
by BLou on Dec 22, 2008 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome back Bluemike!
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 22, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup, classic BM stuff...
…but I can’t really disagree with it. I think the Yankees are good for baseball because, well, every good story needs a villain, right? How boring would “Star Wars” be if the Empire wasn’t detonating innocent planets with its Death Star? They’re (the Yankees, that is) simply unapolgetic in their free-spending approach to assembling a roster. And while I don’t think doing so guarantees them anything, it does make off-seasons (and regular seasons, for that matter) really interesting.
I’d also point out that the Yankees have a long and fascinating history. It’s not like they’re an expansion team that came out of nowhere with a phalanx of billionaire investors in tow. I think they’ve earned the right to spend the kind of money they do. And, yeah, I think the Cubs have, too. I’d just like to see the Cubs do more than just spend money – i.e., build up their support staff and try to rebuild the farm system.
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 23, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Luke, I'm your father. Come back to the darkside of the force you knob!
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 23, 2008 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I'm not a Yankee hater
I enjoy following all the teams to some degree.
Furthermore, I’d add a few notes -
Yankees payroll is actually coming down.
Our payroll is actually going to be fairly close, probably within 30-40 million of the Yankees. If we aren’t a top 3 payroll, I’ll be stunned. Hard for me to hate the Yankees for spending when we aren’t that far behind. I’d have to look at the numbers again, but assuming we spend on a bat and the Red Sox miss on Tex (which I doubt as of now), I think there’s a chance we have a higher payroll than Boston, or are right there with them.
Red Sox do it right. Yes, they use their financial power, but they have one heck of a system. If you’ve got the financial power, use it, but be smart about it, and they have. The Yankees are trying to follow (or go back to the Yankees of the 90’s) by developing the system, but are a bit behind the Red Sox.
The 2009 season isn’t over yet. The Rays will have some staying power in the AL East, as they have the best pitching staff in the division, particularly with David Price set to step into the rotation and other young pieces coming up. Another power bat and they are intriguing. Let’s not write off the Blue Jays yet either, although they’d be more of a spoiler. That said, with Snider in the bigs, the lineup should be solid, if healthy, and the rotation still could be solid (Halladay, McGowan, Marcum). The Yankees offense is a bit iffy, and without Joba in the pen, I have my doubts on how good their pen will be, unless Melancon really emerges.
by toonsterwu on Dec 22, 2008 12:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
No, I don't blame the large market teams
I would do the same thing if I were them- agreed, better to see it go to the players than the owners. But the inequity of it all is amazing. When you take into account the Yankees TV network , I think I heard the franchise is worth like $4 billion. Admittedly, some teams like Fla take in more than they’re spending yet adhere to spendthrift ways, but c’mon, there’s no way that any team can compete with the Yanks dollar for dollar. To me, that’s unfair.
The size of your media market, in my opinion, should have little if any bearing on your team’s competitiveness, ala the NFL, NBA, etc. A salary cap, by far, is the best way to address this inequities, but it’ll never happen. I think the current system sucks as it is, and I can’t believe I’m one of the only ones on this board who thinks this way. I think much of it is that we’re large market fans ourselves, and as such have little sympathy for those small market teams that stand in our way.
And one more thing: our payroll won’t be close to NY. Isn’t their payroll going to be up to $300 million or so this year? If that’s the case, we’re not even in the same ballpark. Besides, we have salary constraints now and we’re at our ceiling. There is no salary ceiling for the Yankees.
by reedjohnson on Dec 22, 2008 12:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
their payroll
is going to be around 180-200 million. They lost a ton of money in expiring contracts this past year. I’ll do a quick calc in a sec to see where they stand right now.
we’ll be around 140-150 in all likelihood, if not a bit more (Crane Kenney did say that we had extra stashed away for midseason moves).
by toonsterwu on Dec 22, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
makiing some estimations
for their arb eligible players, i have their current 39 man payroll (data from cots) at around 173-175 million, and that might be a tad high as I gave some generous estimates.
by toonsterwu on Dec 22, 2008 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Reality check
Florida Marlins won the World Series in 1997 and 2003. Being a “small market team” didn’t seem to inhibit going on a spending spree in 1997 or having the fruits of a great farm system pay great dividends in 2003.
Chicago White Sox won the World Series in 2005. Their payroll wouldn’t classify them as a big revenue team that year.
Minnesota Twins are perennially in the playoff chase. They are forever payroll challenged.
Arizona Diamondbacks had a nice playoff run in 2007. So too did the Tampa Bay Rays in 2008. Neither ballclub supports a big payroll, but rather achieved success because of an outstanding farm system and shrewd front office manuevering paying big dividends.
St. Louis Cardinals played in the World Series in 2004 and 2006. In neither year did they have one of the top payrolls in the game.
by BLou on Dec 22, 2008 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well said!!!
Oakland is another team that for years was very competetive with a small payroll. Also, in 2007, Cleveland tied Boston with the most wins in baseball and came within one win of the W.S. The Indians, as I recall, had a modest payroll that year.
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
by calicubfan on Dec 22, 2008 3:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so I guess I am the only one objecting...
I know- many, many examples can be given of small market teams competing. But c’mon, isn’t it obvious that spending money increases your chances dramatically?
True, a small market team can indeed compete, if not win the world series, but in order for this to occur, almost EVERYTHING must go right, and there is little margin for error. Your young players must peak at the right time, all together, before they’re too expensive to keep. Lose a few big names (example: Milwaukee this coming year) and you might as well blow the team up and start over since you can’t use free agency to fill the holes. I really am the only one who sees a problem with this system?
Further, if a small market team were to go out and sign a full boat free agent, they certainly could from time to time, but just one bad $100 million signing would set back their franchise for years. If the Yanks go out and sign an Igawa or a Pavano, big deal- they eat the contract and sign another pitcher. Small market teams have no such luxury.
Is it hypocritical for me, as a Cub fan to say this? perhaps. But even the Cubs have their limits and can’t keep up with this East coast arms race.
by reedjohnson on Dec 22, 2008 2:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Your points are valid, but amny here seem to want to bash the Yankees and Red Sox just
because they spend a lot of money. These teams are playing under the existing financial rules and they should not be faulted for investing revenue into their product. If they didn’t have the money, they wouldn’t spend it. The problem with small-market teams is a MLB problem and not a Yankee or Red Sox problem. It’s up to MLB to come up with a system that can sustain the small-markets while not overly penalizing the large markets. It’s not up to the large market teams to unilaterally save baseball by keeping revenue in their pockets.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 22, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
MLB DOES have a system for the small market.
The revenue sharing system takes from the rich and gives to the poor. The problem is that some of these small market teams, like Pittsburgh and Florida, take the money and run. They don’t invest these funds into their payroll
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
by calicubfan on Dec 22, 2008 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. but it doesn't work in it's present form. It needs to be revamped to
make it work effectively. As you stated, there is no incentive to make teams that receive payouts spend more on salaries. There needs to be a minimum amount to keep teams from just pocketing the money and skimping on the payroll. The big problem is that the markets have grown differently and teams like the Yankees, Cubs and Red Sox receive huge payouts from their media outlets. This didn’t exist in baseball until fairly recently and this has allowed revenues to be disproportionate. Things like luxury boxes and corporate seating has allowed the large-market teams to dwarf the small-market teams when it comes to revenue streams. Therein lies the rub.
Until MLB finds a way to even out the field when it comes to revenue, this problem will exist until only the large-market will be players in the free agent market. We are almost to that point. Unlike football, there is no national TV contract with billions to share between the teams. The Fox contract is a pittance compared to the NFL deal. MLB revenues are mostly local so the big markets rule the day. Teams like the Marlins and Pirates will have to agree to change the way they do business before the Yankees and Red Sox agree to fork over large sums of money to help them survive.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 22, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree 100%!
Unfortunately, this problem is about to get worse! Part of the current Collective Bargaining Agreement states that teams may deduct stadium financing costs from their revenue sharing payments — kind of like a tax write-off. Therefore, both the NYY and NYM will now contribute less to the revenue sharing pot. As a result, the small market clubs will, in a way, be subsidizing these new parks in NYC.
I’m sure it’s this same clause that has led to so many big market clubs to either building new ballyards or renovating them — like the Dodgers planned $500M renovation to Dodger Stadium
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
by calicubfan on Dec 22, 2008 4:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"Spending money increases your chances dramatically"
So why you hatin’?
"Thank god I threw out my belt & shoelaces."-Bernies Mustache Wax on Evil BCB, 7/31/08
by Bildo1805 on Dec 22, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To me it's obvious why.
When you see the obscene amounts of money being thrown around MLB, with the salary inflation that gets bigger every year, doesn’t that bother you, even a bit? Doesn’t it stick in your craw, just a little bit, when you have pitchers making more in one inning than you make all year? When a lifelong Cub like Wood has to be shown the door over dollars, doesn’t that seem a bit sad? I wish we could go back to the days of old, when you rooted for teams more than you rooted for a certain kind of laundry.
Again, I’m not blaming Boston or New York for their annual arms race- I wish I was a Red Sox fan! But when you see Boston and New York being the only teams that can afford a Sabathia or a Texieria, doesn’t the system strike you as being a bit unfair? Don’t you sometimes wish it was a level playing field for all teams involved?
by reedjohnson on Dec 22, 2008 2:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Is your problem that players are making the salary they are or the fact that only a few
teams can afford them? Unfortunately, I can’t get 40,000 to pay 50 bucks to come watch me work, so nothing is sticking in my craw about that. Where does it stop? Do you resent Tom Cruise getting $20 million for one movie or some executive getting $100 million in stock options? Someone is always going to make obscene amounts of money if someone is willing to pay them. That’s free enterprise.
The problem with teams being able to sign Sabathia or Tex is a different matter. There’s plenty of money in baseball. Unfortunately, it’s not shared equally among the teams. That’s the problem MLB has to solve or it won’t survive. The Yankees, Boston and Chicago happen to be the beneficiaries of large markets that can afford the big names. It’s not their fault. They are playing under a system that is outdated and doesn’t account for the large descrepancies in markets that exist today.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 22, 2008 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There's fault in your argument
There are other teams who could get into the bidding for the CC Sabathias and Mark Texieras of the world. But the choose not to. Seems to me very hypocritical to be lambasting the Boston-New York arms race when the Cubs shelled out an insane $136 million on Alfonso Soriano. To go along with a dubious $48 million investment in Kosuke. Or the nearly $10 million salary that Jason Marquis a 5th starter will make in 2009. Or the major salaries shelled out to Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly, Aramis Ramirez and Derrek Lee.
Even the Yankees make financial choices. This offseason they shed Mike Mussina (earned $16 million per), Jason Giambi (made $19 million in 2008), Bobby Abreu (made $16 million in 2008), Andy Pettitte (made $16 milion in 2008), Kyle Farnsworth.
by BLou on Dec 22, 2008 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it possible to say I'm a big market fan
but that I find the current system unfair? I guess it’s kinda like when a wrong call is made against your opponent- as a fan of your team, you’ll take it, but you’ll admit it was the wrong call. I think it’s possible to be a Cub fan, hope they spend every last dollar to win a World Series, yet also be able to recognize the inequities and shortcomings of the current system. In the interest of fairness, I’d change it if I could, and at the end of the day, a fair system would benefit all baseball fans.
Maybe my NY and Boston hatred just comes from the East Coast bias/second city complex/jealousy as a long suffering Cub fan. Combine that with the increasing bandwagon jumping that I see running amok for the Yanks and bosox across the country, and you can bet I will find fault with everything those two teams do.
by reedjohnson on Dec 22, 2008 4:00 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 22, 2008 4:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What's "Rec'd" mean?
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
by calicubfan on Dec 22, 2008 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
short for Recommended
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Dec 22, 2008 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course it's unfair. No one ever said it was fair. When the Yankees can spend
$175 million on salaries and the Marlins can spend $20 million, of course it’s not fair. The question is, how do you remedy it? Don’t hate the Yankees and Red Sox because they are making those big bucks, this is American and we encourage that type of thing. It’s up to MLB to make it fair.
You have a lot of issues with the East Coast Bigboys, don’t let it color your opinion on this subject. You can hate em all you want for being Yankees or Red Sox, but the money thing is secondary. You really can’t fault a team for spending money on players salaries if the fans are paying it. I personally would want my team to do that rather than some fat cat owner sticking the cash in his pockets.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 22, 2008 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was just wondering that myself...
I feel less stupid now
by reedjohnson on Dec 22, 2008 4:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

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