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My Cubs Top Prospects, 15-35

Please read the intro paragraph in the other post.  As noted, I still make changes to things, as I did with the 15-35 right now while putting it up. 

Looking over my top 50, one of my regrets may be not getting Tony Campana's speed in there.  I wonder if my disappointment with so many "Sam Fuld-ish" players (loose comparison) played a factor in this.  The Sam Fuld type offensive players of the world need an elite skill set to have a good chance ... and even then it's iffy.  But Campana has said speed.  I at least should have put him in my others section.

Some thoughts as I finish this - I love the athletes we take.  I hadn't given much thought to it, but Wilken does focus on athletes, two-way players, or guys with athletic lineage, it seems, particularly for pitchers.  Their athletic ability may bode well for health.

I wonder if I am unduly harsh on some lower level arms and have maybe tilted the back end of the top 50 more towards readiness than I really intended.  A guy like Yohan Gonzalez or Alberto Cabrera may be more deserving of mentions.

I'll always somewhat defend my list, but as I always note, just a fan and there are definitely aspects of this list that makes me rethink things.

Star-divide

15.  Dae-Eun Rhee*, SP.  If you want excitement, see Rhee.  If you want disappointment, see Rhee.  A good fast, curve, split-change (seen reports suggesting he throws a variant, throws one or other) let him to post a 3.08 FIP in 40.3 innings at age 19.  Sweet.  Surgery ... not so sweet.  If he plays in 2009, I'd expect it to be in Peoria.  If he waits until 2010, I'd guess Peoria.  Comes with an asterisk, because if healthy, his grade is higher (assuming he maintained his performance).  That said, he's still awfully young.

16.  Kevin Hart, RP.  Still qualifies, and as such, gets bonus points for readiness.  Not much that needs to be said.  After struggling early, he found a groove.  If you buy him as a spot starter or a late inning arm, then you slide him up.  I think he's a solid middle reliever/long man type, though, so I can't justify putting him higher.

17.  Brandon Guyer, LF/CF.  The tail off in August caused him to lose some steam.  He's probably not, as of now, as good as he was in July, but probably better than he was in the other months, but he can get better.  Somewhat like Colvin in that, he can probably play CF, but may be more of a natural LF.  The Cubs may give him a shot to stick at CF, which is a worthy experiment IMO, and he has some power that this system really lacks.  A very toolsy kid, he should start at Daytona and will be worth watching.

18.  Casey Coleman. SP.  Joe Coleman's son had a good start to his Cub career.  He throws a solid fastball (I think both 2 and 4 seamers, from the low-mid 90's), coupled with a solid change, and an improving curveball.  He should get better now that he is a full-time pitcher.  I imagine he'll start the year in Daytona, and like Jay Jackson, could get bumped up to Tennessee at some point if he does well.  Very intriguing guy to watch.

19.  Junior Lake, 2nd/3rd.  Talented kid with a sweet stroke, he's probably a more skilled athlete than Starlin Castro based on the reports, but has to develop more consistency.  The chances of him sticking at shortstop are still slim, IMO, but he would make a fine 2nd base prospect.  He might even have the power to shift over to the hot corner.  I think he's headed the XST/Boise path, but maybe he pops into Peoria.

20.  Aaron Shafer, SP.  I hope he's not Bobby Brownlie.  I hope he gets his stuff back.  He got off to a solid start in Boise, but if his fastball isn't in the 90's, he won't make it far.  He's got a good breaking ball and a solid changeup, so if that fastball is there, he jumps up in intrigue.  Likely starts 2009 in Peoria, although he may get to Daytona soon. 

21.  Larry Suarez, SP.  Our big international signing a couple moons ago, Suarez rebounded from surgery and showed some signs of his potential, at times, flashing in the mid-90's while showing some good movement on his fastball.  Limited innings, so take it with a grain of salt, but one of the few guys in the system with TOR potential.  I'm thinking he's headed to the XST/Boise path.

22.  Chris Carpenter, SP.  Our third round pick got off to a slow start, with his control all over the place.  That said, he still flashes a mid-90's fastball with a solid slider.  He needs improvement on his changeup to rise up as a starting candidate, and overall, just needs more work.  Considering his past, it'll be worth keeping an eye on his health.  I imagine we'll keep him in the rotation, and I hope he can stick, because he would TOR potential.

23.  Tony Thomas, 2nd.  After being horribly disappointed, I took a step back.  For a guy who went from the hitter friendly NWL to the FSL, for a guy who jumped a level and was a somewhat raw college guy to begin with, his performance wasn't horrible.  It's just ... his bat didn't improve, and there are still questions on his glove.  Doesn't feel like a leadoff option as of now, so his value is hurt a bit by that.  He'll likely start 2009 in Tennessee.

24. Casey Lambert, LOOGY.  With a low 90's fastball and a plus curve, he's Rich Hill ... in the bullpen.  Lambert looks to be a solid LOOGY possibility that could perhaps reach the majors at some point in 2009.

25.  Rocky Roquet, RP.  Should age hurt him when he is a pen candidate?  That is, here's a guy who throws a hard fastball and a solid slider that is coming off a solid season and finished the year with improved control.  His arsenal is similar to Cashner's, or perhaps he could get compared to Kyle Farnsworth.  Likely to start in AAA, perhaps as their closer, with a shot in the bigs if the need arises.

26.  Nate Spears, UTIL.  It seems like he's been around forever, and yes, he's been around for awhile as a HS draftee for the Orioles.  That said, he'll be in AAA and won't turn 24 until May.  Nate's coming off a quality season in AA.  He can handle short enough that it is possible to project him as a possible utility option.  His main problem is that we have a lot of middle infielders in the bigs and we have 2nd base options behind him.

27.  Alessandro Maestri, P.  The first Italian pitcher to go this far was excellent in Daytona as a starter this year and got a very deserving promotion to AA.  There, he got hurt.  He offers a low 90's fastball coupled with a plus slider that was rated the best in the Cubs system last year, although Cashner may edge him out now.  His change showed improvement.  That said, I still think his future is more as a pen arm, but as always, starters have more value so I would work him as long as I can as a starter and see if he can improve.  I mean, if the change becomes decent or better, this is an intriguing starting caliber talent (particularly considering the number of pen prospects in our system).  It's probably AA with a shot at AAA if all goes well.

28.  James Russell, P.  I wonder if I am overreacting a bit on Russell.  After being decent in Daytona, he floundered in Tennessee.  Looking back at his Daytona performance, he certainly wasn't that good.  In saying all this, Russell was pushed hard.  Here's a guy who still has a good low 90's fastball and a plus change.  There were some that thought Jeff's boy was a pen arm coming out of college, and with those two pitches, he probably could still be a good pen arm.  That said, with Lambert and Papelbon, and a host of lefties in the lower levels, seeing if his curve can develop is worth the effort.  I know some esteemed folks have Russell higher, but I just wonder if he's a pen arm.  I'd guess he starts in Daytona again if he's utilized as a starter.

29.  Justin Bristow, SP.  Definitely didn't get off to a hot start in our organization.  That said, he's got a good arsenal with a low 90's fastball and he also uses a curve, cutter, and a change, I believe.  He's another former 2-way guy, and I wonder if a focus on pitching will help him improve a lot next year.  I'm thinking Peoria is his starting point.

30.  Jeremy Papelbon, RP.  Jon's little brother settled back down after a May hiccup, and was real solid all year long, primarily as a pen arm, but starting some late.  I think I read somewhere that the Cubs were priming him to start in 2009, perhaps for Tennessee, but I could be wrong.  His arsenal certianly suggests pen, as he doesn't have the fastball velocity (high 80's) to really think he can be more than an end of the rotation guy.  His fastball does have good movement, though, and he has a decent-solid change and slider to go with the fastball, and he throws either a forkball, a splitter, or some sort of fork-split to go with it (I believe he said in an interview that it's basically the same pitch, but it's movement depends on what he does with it each at bat, or something like that).  He was dominant against lefties this year, with a K rate against lefties nearly 2 ahead of what he did against righties.  He was also solid against righties, though.  I find it interesting that the Cubs and Red Sox have shared two sets of brothers (the Papelbon's and the Marshall's).  Actually, Jeremy's future could be somewhat similar to what Sean did for the Cubs out of the pen, as a jack of all trades type of guy, although Jeremy should be a better situational guy.  He may get an outside shot of breaking camp with us, but I imagine he'll start in AA, in whatever role, with a chance at the bigs this year.  Gotta love his willingness to take on whatever role the organization wants him in.

31.  Nate Samson, MI.  I tend to think a bit of Ryan Theriot here.  He tailed off a bit as the season progressed, but Samson and Rosa were the key cogs to the Peoria offense much of the year.  Samson's glove is a big question at short, with some thinking he has a Theriot like shot of sticking there, and others disagreeing.  I think, due to the way the system stacks, he likely has another shot at short next year, probably at Daytona.  There's some more power in there, potentially.  Granted, not much more, but even a little more makes him look a lot more intriguing.

32.  Matt Cerda, C.  The little guy is a tough player, by most accounts, and under Fatheree's tutelage, seems to be adjusting well to catcher.  I will be very intrigued to see if Jody Davis can help the kid somewhat, although as others have noted, to be fair, Jody was an offensive catcher.  He shows pretty good discipline already, which is a nice sign.  He's never going to have that much pop.  XST/Boise seems possible, although I could see XST/Arizona again.

33.  Jeffry Antigua, P.  I may be a little overly high on Antigua.  Young, hard throwing lefty runs a 2-seamer in there in the low 90's.  As he fills out, he could eventually get up the mid-90's, but as with everything for him, it's all projection.  Has to improve his other pitches and become more consistent, but the upside is intriguing enough to me.  XST/Boise is possible, although XST/Arizona can't be ruled out.

34.  Randy Wells, RP.  Maybe the best thing that happened to Randy was that he went to Toronto.  A former catcher, Wells added a nice sinker to his mix.  Now, that sinker didn't improve his home run rate, but Wells looks to be the type of guy that fits in at the end, the 12th arm out of the pen, a guy that gets shuffled up and down, a potential spot starter/long man.  I wonder if I have him a bit high.  AAA or the bigs.

35.  Jake Fox, C/1st/Corner OF.  He is what he is.  He's not a guy who's going to get anywhere with his defense, and he's a free swinger.  He's got pop, though, and he still could be a useful 13th man, the emergency catcher/backup 1st/backup Corner OF/righty bat off the bench guy that may shuffle between the bigs and the minors.  Was a bit unlucky in April, and by the time he looked to be turning things around in May, the Cubs demoted him to Tennessee, where he heated up as the summer progressed.  Could probably flop him with some of the guys in the 36-40 range, but I had to make a decision.  Should be in AAA.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Well done

From 15 to 20 I’ll bet our list is as good as or better than anyone in baseball. From 20 it becomes a little muddled, but has some big leaguers in it and a few decent ones. I think you see that we have decent depth, we just need higher ceiling players, which is alot better than where we were 3yrs ago.

by Slamdog on Dec 29, 2008 6:38 AM CST reply actions  

This was something I was going to post at the end

But here’s a question – can an organization that may be ranked in the bottom 5 of all systems in the majors right now be headed in the right direction? My answer is yes (that is, I’m agreeing with you). A system has to fit the organization’s needs, and this system is trying to do that, with some stopgap/bench guys in the upper levels, and some high-ceiling kids lower on. Sure, I’d love an elite system, but it takes time to get there, and ours got messy for awhile. I think we’re headed in the right direction, though.

by toonsterwu on Dec 29, 2008 11:05 AM CST up reply actions  

I suspect that Detroit will be near the bottom

Surprising to see the Dodgers near the bottom but after the Kershaw promotion it does look like their system is a bit bare.

by rlpete on Dec 29, 2008 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

More handy work by the woeful Ned Colletti

Colletti’s predecessors Dan Evans and Paul DePodesta built an enviable farm system that scouted and developed very well. But under Colletti the system is going to seed. All of the good young talent on the Dodgers is product of the Evans and DePodesta era.

Seriously, I would love to one day learn the secret of how Colletti has a job. He is an absolute trainwreck in every dimension of being a baseball executive.

by BLou on Dec 29, 2008 1:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Logan White

White was building well before Depodesta, in fact they didnt see eye to eye very well and that lead to Depodesta’s firing. Alot of White’s stuff came under Evans and even before that.

by Slamdog on Dec 29, 2008 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Some praise for Dan Evans

*I should preface this by saying I went through a brief phase in my life when I really liked the White Sox. Joey Cora and Blackjack McDowell were my favorite players. However these days I’m a true blue Cubs fan.

So Dan Evans used to be an operations guy for the White Sox.

Back in the 90’s my mom and I would go to spring training every year, bouncing between Arizona and Florida.

We were at a Sox game and at the time I was a pretty big autograph hunter (I was around 10 or 12 years old). So I snuck up near the dugout and started calling players over to sign my baseball cards (I remember Lance Johnson being a really great guy when it came to getting autographs. In fact I remember him calling other players over to sign my cards).

Well some guy in a suit came over and told me I was standing in his seat. I quickly apologized and told him I’d move (men in suits were intimidating back in those days… they still are I guess), but he said not to worry about it, when he was my age he was doing the same thing. Then we talked about my favorite players, talked about Commisky and Wrigley, talked about “the old days”, etc. At the end he introduced himself as Dan Evans and gave me his card. He said to send him a letter and he’d send me some Sox stuff.

So about a month after spring training I sent him a letter saying it was nice to meet him and thanked him for letting me stand in his spot to get autographs. I them mentioned he said he might have some Sox stuff for me and gave my return address. I was hoping maybe he’d send me one of those miniature bats with Frank Thomas’ name on it, of maybe a media guide.

Another month passed and when I got home my mom had a big box on my bed. I opened it and my jaw dropped. Inside were 3 or 4 tiny bats, a pack of team cards, a couple pennants, a media guide, some American League baseballs, a few other things I’m forgetting, and the creme de le creme… a ball signed by Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura, and Tim Raines.

Needless to say that box blew me away and to this day I’m grateful and surprised at the generosity. In my mind, Dan Evans can do no evil.

by trefrog66 on Dec 29, 2008 2:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Great story. I'm totally jealous. Evans always struck me as a class

guy and it doesn’t surprise me that he would do something like this. I hope you held on to the good stuff.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Dec 29, 2008 2:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Give the Dodgers a year

Their system will be back up. They’ve got TOR potential with Martin, 2 potential 2’s in Elbert/McDonald, and a collection of intriguing young arms. They’ve also got some solid bats, Gallagher may not stick at 3rd. Considering all the young talent they’ve graduated, they were bound to come down a bit, but Logan White, the man who built that system, is still there, and I think they’ll be back up soon.

Houston should be below us, along with Detroit.

by toonsterwu on Dec 29, 2008 1:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I want to say, off the top

that he’ll start tossing late summer, but I could be wrong on that. Will try to look it up.

by toonsterwu on Dec 29, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions  

Thank you

For someone like me who doesn’t pay much attention to the minors, this is helpful. One thing I would ask is if you could toss in their positions for those of us who don’t already know them. Cheers.

by JodyDavis on Dec 29, 2008 9:19 AM CST reply actions  

+1

Agreed… From someone else who doesn’t pay very close attention to the minors, the input here from you, Josh77 and others regarding the system is greatly appreciated.

"...the internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck. It's a series of tubes." - Sen. Ted Stevens

by bobby h on Dec 29, 2008 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Let me add my thanks as well.

Whether some or any of these guys turn into productive major leaguers or not, I feel like a better educated Cubs fan reading their names and familiarizing myself with the minor league system as a whole. I’m looking forward to the rest of the list.

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by daver on Dec 30, 2008 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Pretty darn dismal...

I look at that list and go yuck. There’s just not a lot there.

by BLou on Dec 29, 2008 12:49 PM CST reply actions  

Well, you're not at the top 15 yet.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Dec 29, 2008 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Just keep this list for yourself in 5 yrs!

I’m sure this list will suprise you, more than you think today.

by Slamdog on Dec 29, 2008 2:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually, the 15-35 that I have

probably intrigues me more than my 1-14 in some respects.

Namely because, in that 15-35 range is where we see some intriguing starting pitching potential. Potential being the keyword. I underrated Casey Coleman in my previous list. Justin Bristow’s high end athletic potential out of HS intrigues me, and I wonder if he’ll make marked improvements in year 2. James Russell/Alessandro Maestri may be pen arms … but if they develop that third pitch, they could both be intriguing starting caliber pitchers. Jeffry Antigua is raw upside, as is Larry Suarez. Chris Carpenter might arguably have some of the best potential in our system. If Shafer gets a little more velo back, he could be real good. And there’s Rhee.

I don’t expect all of these to pan out, but pitching potential excites me far more than positional potential, as pitching potential offers greater value due to the attrition rates. If some things go right for us, we could be looking at a system whose value may rise dramatically in a year based on pitching potential developing.

by toonsterwu on Dec 29, 2008 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Every teams list is a crap shoot after the top 10

Hell even the top 10s for teams are no gurantee for success but at least the guys in the top 10 have produced results and are less of a question mark.

I have been getting the BA prospect guide for the last 5 or 6 years and it always amazes me to look back through them and see how many guys don’t make it. One of these days I will actually sit down and calculate the percentages of guys who make it off those lists. My guess it is only 20% from the top 10 and 5-10% below 10 (these numbers are guys just making it- a better indicator may be to break it down as stars, regulars, bench/cup of coffee). There are just so many factors that play into a guy suceeding that it is just difficult to predict.

In the back of those books are also the drafts from each year for the first 3 rounds. That is also amazing to look at b/c generally less than half of the 1st round picks even make it to the majors let alone do anything.

by CA Cub Fan on Dec 29, 2008 2:20 PM CST up reply actions  

to be fair

soto really didn’t take a step forward until 2 years ago when he lost his weight and got in shape. Before then, he really was an average prospect, akin to what Welington Castillo is like right now. Once he lost his weight, Soto took giant steps forward.

by toonsterwu on Dec 29, 2008 3:08 PM CST up reply actions  

I would have to look back to see exactly but I want to say

Soto was around 14 or 15 the year before he really tore it up. That has been sort of the trademark of the Cubs system the last few years- not a lot of upper end talent that BA and others love but a lot of guys who have made it and are contributing. This is a list of guys I can think of off the top of my head in the last few years who are now playing but weren’t rated really high: Soto (#2 in 08 but not in top 10 in 07), Theriot, Marshall (although he was #5 or so one year), Fontenot, Wuertz, Marmol (was never top 10 but close), Hoffpauir, Samardzija (#3 in 07 but mostly given on potential and name recognition rather than actual production), Hart, Gallagher (#5 in 07 and 08),
Hill (#5), cedeno, and patterson. That is really a lot of production although many will argue there are no superstars which is what the farm system has to produce as well.

Yet the guys rated really high have not really produced like hoped- guys like Pie, Guzman, Colvin, Dopirak, etc.

by CA Cub Fan on Dec 29, 2008 3:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Curiousity compels me to ask...

…what exactly are you looking for? Or who exactly are you looking for?

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by daver on Dec 30, 2008 1:00 PM CST up reply actions  

The system is in the dumps

There is little if anything in the Cub system that wows right now. It’s even way premature to consider the major league projectability of Josh Vitters given that he has yet to play Low A ball.

Tim Wilken? I’m scratching my head trying to identify the wondrous positives of his first few drafts for the Cubs. Yes of course it is WAY too early to pass judgment on the Class of 2006, 2007 and 2008. But that said I don’t see any burgeoning diamonds among his first three years of selections. At least not at this point.

Oneri Flieita and the developmental team? Why is it that are system continues to be populated with DH types and/or those with shockingly lousy plate discipline and hitting approaches? Dopirak, Harvey, Sing, Dubois, Patterson (Corey), Pie…. Of course Geovany Soto looks to be the exception, but then again we are talking a guy who wasn’t even rated a real prospect who all of a sudden blossomed in 2007.

We seems to be a system that develops Ryan Theriot and Mike Fontenot types. Or in other words marginally thought of prospects who at relatively advanced age develop to the point where they can help a big league club as complementary player. Nate Spears seems to be latest poster child for this organizational phenomenon.

by BLou on Dec 30, 2008 1:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Alright, well, duly noted.

Far be it for me to even try to assemble an argument that the Cubs farm system is in great shape. It just seems a little unrealistic to be “wow’d” by any team’s mid-level prospects. And I’m inclined to agree with toonsteru about giving Wilken another year or two before tossing him under the (minor league) bus.

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by daver on Dec 30, 2008 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

I would say that BLou's

complaints aren’t exactly unwarranted. That is, there is some validity to it.

I do think our system is headed in the right direction, but that we are still severely lacking in upside. For a team that has a win now core, this is probably the perfect time to add high upside pieces, and yet, we don’t have many legitimate power prospects (even one of my favorite prospects in the system, Jovan Rosa, is a projection in terms of the power that I think he will develop). We don’t have many pitchers with TOR potential. We have a lot of pen arms … and the only help that offers is that we might not have to overspend on middle relievers in the near future. We have a lot of “Sam Fuld” offensive skillset types, 2nd base depth (which isn’t exactly a position you get gung-ho about in regards to depth in your system), and perhaps worst of all, a lot of LF prospects.

I mean … no one would argue that we are a good system right now in terms of perception, and thus, there are definitely flaws. That said, what I will say is what I’ve said before – I think we are headed in the right direction, and that, even though the systems of 2 years ago may have been ranked higher, I like the makeup of the system now better than a couple years ago. Whether we get there, only time will tell, but you slowly are seeing more upside fill in the lower levels. We’ve found some raw pieces in Latin America the last few years. I like the fact that the organization seems to be building it’s coaching depth in the minor leaguers, spending on guys like Fatheree to train a kid, or training former prospects, like Casey Kopitzke, a shot. I like the fact that we went out of org last year to hire a pitching coordinator, and that we seem to be molding some good young managers/teachers. I have good hopes that the Latin American signings of recent years, coupled with last year’s pitching heavy draft, will help replenish the system. I like the fact that, hey, we have a couple kids that are legit SS prospects now (nothing personal to Barney, but that bat is going to have to make a huge 360 to be viable).

Ideally, you’d have a wham, bang, dominant minor league system, up and down filled with talent. That said, few teams, if any, have that. I think our system somewhat fits our team decently. We’ve got those stopgap players in the upper levels that can fill in the bench or pen for us, saving us some money potentially, over the next few years for our win-now core. Now, we need to hope that the young upside in the lower levels develops to allow us to not avoid any serious dropoffs when this current core ages. I know some folks disagree, but I’d like to see us take some more chances on upside in the last few drafts. As a bystander, I feel like Wilken’s first draft was hindered by the lack of picks, and his second draft felt like a draft to fill in positional depth. Even the 2008 draft is one that feels like it was aimed at filling in depth, namely pitching depth, although, for the most part, it was a good draft (and enough people felt that way, IIRC the post-draft reports). I’d like to see us use our financial power to go after tough signs in the later rounds that other teams might not be able to land (which we did this year with McDaniel and others).

by toonsterwu on Dec 30, 2008 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

You make good points

I’m just saying that I look at the mid-round “prospects” you have posted and see the next wave of Josh Kroegers and Sam Fulds. We seem to highly proficient in developing aging Triple A roster filler.

And I don’t think it is too far fetched to look at your list and throw out the half-assed proclamation that of all those names Nate Spears will wind up the guy who has the most sustained and successful taste of the big leagues. As a poor man’s Ryan Theriot.

by BLou on Dec 30, 2008 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Again- to beat a dead horse every systems 15-50 rated prospects are

much like the cubs. Most will never see a major league bench let alone become a regular. They are all long shots with severe deficiencies in their games.

The real problem with the cub system is not these guys (i.e. 15-50) it is the top 10 is not real exciting. Vitters is the only top tier/superstar potential player and he is a LONG way from the big leagues which is why the system is getting bashed. If you want to bash the last list when it comes out please get in line but these guys are not the issue.

by CA Cub Fan on Dec 30, 2008 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Cubs have a bad farm system right now due to combination of factors

Yes, key guys like Sean Gallagher and Josh Donaldson have been traded off. But yes also the organization continues to have the fundamental inability to develop major league quality hitters. Felix Pie is latest poster child for what has ailed this franchise for 20 years. The approach to scouting, selecting and developing hitters needs complete revamp. Hendry, Wilken and Flieta need to pull their heads ouf of their keesters on this one.

And yes, I am starting to have my doubts about the wondrous abilities of Tim Wilken. It is early, but the early returns are not good. Not good at all.

by BLou on Dec 29, 2008 4:12 PM CST reply actions  

Agreed that the Cubs system seems to not be top notch right now but

I don’t think you can really rate a system except after the fact (at least 3 years after a draft). For example about 6 years ago the cubs had one of the top systems in all of baseball because they had a ton of prospects that were oozing talent (Justin Jones, K Patterson, H S Choi, Guzman, Kelton, Dopirak, and a bunch of highly drafted pitchers like Blasko, Hagerty, Canton, etc.) but most of them fizzeled badly. Yet 2 or 3 years ago most said the Cubs system was mediocre yet it has produced a bunch of mlb players (Soto, Theriot, Fontenot, Marmol, Gallagher, Hill, Pie, Cedeno, Samardzija, Murton, etc.) Which would you rather of had? This is why it is so difficult to predict. The first seemed to be the class of players that was going to change the team and it did almost nothing. In fact the one prospect who was least tauted of the big names from that era was Zambrano- go figure.

The other thing you forget is all the high picks the cubs have surrendered (2nd round in 03, 1st rd in 04, no 2nd-4th in 06). These are the high end guys that make or break a system and losing that many in the last 5 years eventually shows up.

by CA Cub Fan on Dec 29, 2008 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

In addition

Actually the stat board looks like this.
2003. 2nd round
2004 1st round
2006 2nd, 3rd and 4th round
2007 2nd round.
Thou the last two yrs we’ve had sandwich picks (Donaldson, Flaherty)
The problem here is the lack of 2003-2005 prospects on this list.
Some people looking at the draft like its football/basketball, which is wrong. Most cases players dont start coming around until their 7th/8th yr after signing. Case in point Theriot, he came up his 4th yr after signing and played parts of the next two yrs, but he didnt really contribute until after his 6th yr of signing. Soto signed in 2001, played a little in 2007 and just started playing full time in 2008 his 7th yr and he was a high school sign and Theriot was a college sign. Hoffpauir is just getting to major leagues in his 7th season. Most players will take some time, there are a few exceptions.

by Slamdog on Dec 30, 2008 7:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Slight disagreement

College draftees should make an impact before their 6th or 7th season. That makes them 27 or 28. That was what Theriot did and that’s why he was never much of a prospect.

High schoolers frequently will take 6 or 7 seasons but that makes them 24 or so which is fine. Soto broke out at 25.

Usually superstars will make an impact by 22/23 and above average players by 24/25. On the Cubs, Ramirez made an impact at 23, Lee at 24. There are obviously exceptions.

by rlpete on Dec 30, 2008 9:20 AM CST up reply actions  

You make some excellent points...

…but, for accuracy’s sake, Fontenot and Murton are not products of the Cubs farm system. IIRC, LBR came from Baltimore and Murton from Boston.

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by daver on Dec 30, 2008 12:56 PM CST up reply actions  

I think

too early to tell.

Here’s the thing – his first draft was stripped by the loss of picks. After that, IMO, he worked to fill in areas of the system, by first going heavy positional in the early portion of 2007, and following it up with heavy pitching this past year. I really like the arms that we’ve added this year. The 2007 draft is a bit more of a mixed bag.

What I’d say is this – give Wilken at least another year, if not two, before making a final judgment. You need to give his 2007 draft some time to develop and at least some time on the 2008 draft. Judging a scouting director this quick isn’t fair. It’s arguably a bit early to tell on his 2006 draftees.

I like the fact that we’ve added pitching upside in the past couple years. I like the fact that, in general, we are trying to add some upside. It’s easy to forget that, even though our system was ranked higher before Wilken came in, the system was one with few high end talents and a lot of guys who might grab a cup of tea … or might be career minor leaguers. He’s had to revamp an entire system. I like the forays into Latin America and Asia.

A few things I don’t like – the number of “Sam Fuld” type offensive players. As noted, it takes guys that have a plus skill set to excel with that offensive toolkit. The lack of power is disappointing as well.

I’d say give it another year or two before making a judgment on Wilken. Particularly, wait on the 2008 class, his 2nd full class, as I like some of the arms. He has fundamentally revamped the way we draft, in many respects, at least, in comparison to the Stockstill era.

by toonsterwu on Dec 29, 2008 6:46 PM CST up reply actions  

I generally agree with your points

But I’m starting to have legitimate doubts about Tim Wilken. It seems to me he has picked a lot of Tyler Colvin and Tony Thomas types. Guys who it is difficult to understand the major league projectability of their skills.

by BLou on Dec 29, 2008 6:55 PM CST up reply actions  

that's sorta his style

we sorta knew those types of “hit or miss” athletic picks were coming. he hit while in toronto, with toolsy guys.

the thomas pick wasn’t a bad one. when that pick was made, thomas was a guy who turned it on his last year at FSU and was looking quite intriguing.

by toonsterwu on Dec 29, 2008 9:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Thomas

was very unimpressive at the HWL and after seeing him in person he definitely dropped in my opinion

Derrick Rose-2009 ROTY Tyrus Thomas-2009 MIP...hope I'm at least half right

by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Dec 30, 2008 5:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Trying to contemplate where the newguys go

I know Tony Lastoria had Stevens as the 15th best prospect for the Indians, which is quite interesting to me because most would acknowledge the Indians system is better, and yet, I would put him at 16 at best. Will contemplate it some more (Stevens didn’t crack Sickels top 20 and HM lists). Definitely in the top 50, though.

I’m thinking that Archer cracks my list in the mid-40’s Projectable young arm, plus curve, and a live fastball that could inch up to the mid-90’s spells intriguing.

That knocks Reinhard and Chen off. As for Gaub, I’m debating whether or not the hard-throwing Schlitter, who I may have underrated a bit as I look at my list, or Gaub should be 50.

I’ll give it some more thought and post up where I would place them when I put up the top 14.

Any thoughts?

by toonsterwu on Dec 31, 2008 3:07 PM CST reply actions  

The guy I think of

when looking at Archer stuff right now is Sean Gallagher. Both were 19 when they hit Low A, both had a plus curve and a projectable fastball, but needed work. Gallagher had to physically mature more than I think Archer has to now. Archer has more mechanical issues than Gallagher did, which has led to some control problems. That said, I can see Archer maturing quite well.

by toonsterwu on Dec 31, 2008 3:12 PM CST up reply actions  

So when is 1-14 coming out?

Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.

by daver on Dec 31, 2008 3:35 PM CST reply actions  

um tonight?

i’m out and about right now … but probably tonight, and i’ll probably do a whole list as a subpost to indicate where i would put in the 3 Indians we added today.

by toonsterwu on Dec 31, 2008 5:03 PM CST up reply actions  

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