Marquis for Heilman Vetoed???
According to the Newark-Star Ledger a possible Marquis for Heilman deal has been turned down by the New York Mets. Article says we were gonna eat part of the salary. I gotta believe one way or another were getting Jake Peavy. I personally can't stand Jason Marquis and want him gone regardless of whether we get Jake Peavy or not. One thing's for sure with the Winter Meetings starting Monday and thats the Hot Stove is red hot. I dont know how much were willing to eat but reports say its upwards to 4 Million dollars.
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Comments
I don't understand the hate for Marquis
Marquis is not an ace by any means but he is a very solid #5 starter and probably one of the best #5 starters in the game. I’d rather have Marquis over Heilman.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Dec 6, 2008 11:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
well
maybe its his nose!! one thing that really pissed me off about marquis was his i’m too good for the bullpen i’m a starter speech.
Dear Santa:: All I want for X-mas this year is an official 2009 Jake Peavy Cubs Jersey. Oh and a Beimel one too. I've been a real good guy for the most part!!!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 6, 2008 11:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
HIS NOSE!?!?!?!?
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE QUICKLY CLARIFY WHAT THE HELL THAT MEAN????!!!!!!!
"How's your mother?"
"She's on her way out."
"We all are. Act accordingly."
by louslovechild on Dec 6, 2008 11:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
*MEANT????!!!!!!!
"How's your mother?"
"She's on her way out."
"We all are. Act accordingly."
by louslovechild on Dec 6, 2008 11:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nose...
…in the air. Have you heard of that phrase? ie thinks of himself too highly.
by serbianking33 on Dec 7, 2008 2:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it's a Jewish nose thing?
I kid cause I have one myself and I hate myself for it. I want myself gone whether Peavy is a Cub or not.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Dec 7, 2008 9:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He's always been a starter
He was signed as a starter.
He didn’t do anything in 2007 to get demoted.
He was just sticking up for himself.
My next sig line quote will also be from Lou Piniella, and the first word will be either "Look", or "Listen", followed by a comma.
by JohnM on Dec 7, 2008 5:13 AM CST up reply actions 7 recs
And his family
As he said, he has a family to consider. How are they expected to survive on the mere $16,000,000 he was owed at that point when he was in danger of becoming a reliever?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 7, 2008 8:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He put his foot in it with that bit of nonsense
but I’m not going to pile on. You’re back to work for spring training, everyone is excited and looking forward to a better season, you struggle a little bit in practice games and all of sudden fans, media and your manager are talking about taking your job away from you because we have to find a place for Jon Lieber and a relief pitcher (Dempster) — and the season hasn’t even started yet?
My next sig line quote will also be from Lou Piniella, and the first word will be either "Look", or "Listen", followed by a comma.
by JohnM on Dec 7, 2008 9:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont
wanna hear a word out of a 5th starter. do what your told,when you told. kinda like a kicker on a football team. shut your mouth and do the job we assign you to do.marquis is garbage and i want him off this team badly!
Dear Santa:: All I want for X-mas this year is an official 2009 Jake Peavy Cubs Jersey. Oh and a Beimel one too. I've been a real good guy for the most part!!!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 7, 2008 9:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
DeRosa did basically the same thing...
He said he really didn’t want to be a utility guy. He wanted to be a 2B. Marquis said he didn’t want to be a reliever. He wanted to be a starter. He was never told to be a reliever. You’re making up a scenario that did not exist.
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2008 10:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know it's just sports banter
but I still find it offensive when people call other human beings “garbage”. And in this case it seems to be because you think Marquis is uppity and you don’t like his nose. That’s what I don’t wanna hear.
My next sig line quote will also be from Lou Piniella, and the first word will be either "Look", or "Listen", followed by a comma.
by JohnM on Dec 7, 2008 1:03 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
oh get over yourself
when a person thinks a sports player is no good like me I use garbage to describe him. dont make it anymore than it is. my gosh!
Dear Santa:: All I want for X-mas this year is an official 2009 Jake Peavy Cubs Jersey. Oh and a Beimel one too. I've been a real good guy for the most part!!!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 7, 2008 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder what you would call a really bad pitcher though
if Marquis is garbage. He’s close to league average whether the Marquis haters like to admit it or not.
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2008 4:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
let me end this
I may be wrong i may be right. I’m entitled to an opinion. I dont like marquis,i dont think he fits on this team,I think he is a horrible pitcher for various reasons, I want rid of him at all cost. Looking at his nose drives me batty kinda like looking at kevin greggs god awful glasses. please hendry trade him!
Dear Santa:: All I want for X-mas this year is an official 2009 Jake Peavy Cubs Jersey. Oh and a Beimel one too. I've been a real good guy for the most part!!!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 7, 2008 4:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a better way of putting it.
Calling someone “garbage” isn’t nice — you gave better reasons for it in that comment, though there are some Jewish people who might take offense at your “nose” comment.
Stick to his baseball skills, please. That’s why we’re here.
And rlpete is right. Marquis is just about league average — which is FAR above the level of most fifth starters.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 7, 2008 5:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
point taken
but the 5 million nosemar comments were never taken out of context—why is that?? why all of the sudden in the past few months is things becoming so sensitive around here? maybe its the playoff loss or the big divide between us on what we want this offseason but I think some need to relax and stop taking things so personal. tommorrow is a big day for us though—santo gets a hall nod, pieces start to fall, and finally we might get something new to talk about around here.
Dear Santa:: All I want for X-mas this year is an official 2009 Jake Peavy Cubs Jersey. Oh and a Beimel one too. I've been a real good guy for the most part!!!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 7, 2008 5:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
pieces start to fall
Like hair pieces
I love Ronnie, I do hope he makes it in
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy."
- Dodgers, Astros, Brewers, A's & Angels pitcher Don Sutton
by CubFreak on Dec 8, 2008 12:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought
religion and politics were supposed to be left off this board. cause if not there is been several times I could take comments as offensive to my religion. I will start pointing them out if were gonna start what offends each others religion stuff.
Dear Santa:: All I want for X-mas this year is an official 2009 Jake Peavy Cubs Jersey. Oh and a Beimel one too. I've been a real good guy for the most part!!!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 7, 2008 5:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you need to stop right here before you step somewhere you don't want to go.
You’re a guest here, as is everyone else. I’ll take care of the warnings, thank you. Be nice.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 7, 2008 10:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sticking up for himself?
That’s BS.
Saying “I’d prefer to remain a starter, as it’s what I’ve always been” would’ve been fine.
His “start me or trade me, I’m NOT going to the bullpen” attitude was complete crap.
by kanderber on Dec 7, 2008 9:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he said it like that...
he said he thought of himself as a starter and that he’d rather be traded than be a reliever. He didn’t say he wouldn’t be a reliever if asked to be. He just said he wouldn’t WANT to do it.
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2008 10:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
And then, guess what? He went out and did his job the rest of the year, and did it well.
Raising this issue, as some have done in this thread, is unearthing a dead and buried thing. It’s over. Move on.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 7, 2008 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
But you know what Al, people don’t like Marquis for whatever reason. And they are going to hold on to that as a reason to hate.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Dec 7, 2008 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
True enough.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 7, 2008 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"Start me or trade me"
was the headline on the Paul Sullivan blog entry on the story. You must be remembering that hook, which was meant to be memorable.
The actual quote was along the lines of "I’d prefer to remain a starter, as it’s what I’ve always been" — which you say would have been fine.
I still think he was put under pressure and chose to stick up for himself rather than roll over, as most people would do if they heard their boss wanted to replace them when they hadn’t done anything wrong.
My next sig line quote will also be from Lou Piniella, and the first word will be either "Look", or "Listen", followed by a comma.
by JohnM on Dec 7, 2008 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right, and...
… the writers don’t usually write the headlines. They’re written to grab attention.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 7, 2008 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
He may not have used the best words but he wants to be a starter. That’s what he has been his whole career. He’s a league average starter so there is nothing wrong with it.
For any of the Marquis haters who want to trade him for Heilman. Guess what, Heilman has said he wants to start.
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2008 4:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think its the $$$
To clear room for more additions.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Dec 6, 2008 11:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A Very Expensive #5.
I’d prefer to pay $7M for our #5 as opposed to $9.875M
In Hendry We Trust
by initram on Dec 7, 2008 12:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather...
…spend 375K on a young lefty.
by serbianking33 on Dec 7, 2008 2:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
But it is a risk. There’s no reason to think Marshall is going to be better or even as good as Marquis. The one thing you get with Marquis is a guy who will consistently give his team a chance to win.
I’m not sure I’m ready to take that risk.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Dec 7, 2008 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Won't happen.
The minimum salary in 2009 is $400,000.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on Dec 7, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A young lefty
that hasn’t shown he can handle the workload. I’m not saying Marshall shouldn’t be given his chance but be careful for what you wish for.
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2008 4:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'm not young, but I am a lefty
and I’ll gladly take your $375K. In exchange, you can have all the balls I catch next year. We got a deal?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Dec 7, 2008 9:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Marquis is a solid five starter and I don't hate him,
but he gets paid too much for what he does and we have a couple of players who could do what he does for a lot less, those two being Marshall and Gaudin, who many forget about.
by dakoose on Dec 7, 2008 1:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gaudin
What is the story with Gaudin anyway? I’ve seen some references to a dumpster incident during the season that may have had something to do with his back injury. There’s actually been talk on some blogs that the Cubs might non-tender Gaudin. That seems crazy as the guy has some trade value unless his back is messed up that nobody believes he’ll be an effective pitcher again.
by FrankSereno on Dec 7, 2008 8:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lou apparently was very unhappy over the incident...
First, because he was apparently out drinking after a game, tripped on a curb (or something), and slammed into the dumpster bruising his lower back.
Second, because he tried to cover it up at first and say that he had been hurt working out.
Since we all know what the escape rate is from Lou’s doghouse, it is plausible to assume that he would be non-tendered if they can’t trade him this week.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on Dec 7, 2008 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who MAYBE could do what Marquis has done
Gaudin was a decent starter for one year in Oakland but wasn’t godd for the Cubs.
Marshall has never done it.
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2008 4:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Mets trade
When was the last time the Cubs made a GOOD trade with the Mets?
When Angel Pagan wasn’t involved?
I thought making trades with the Mets was not allowed until Santo makes the HOF…
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy."
- Dodgers, Astros, Brewers, A's & Angels pitcher Don Sutton
by CubFreak on Dec 8, 2008 12:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ALso
Just because te Cubs are interested in dealing Marquis, does not necessarily mean the Cubs are still interested in Peavy or close to a Peavy deal.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Dec 6, 2008 11:43 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Thats odd
I thought they wanted to get rid of Heilman, well I wonder if they miss out on Garland if theyd revisit the idea.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Dec 6, 2008 11:47 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
The article
says they were saving Heilman for a different deal.
The article also criticizes the Mets for not making the deal.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Dec 7, 2008 5:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he's a good 5th starter
but it’s obvious that Hendry is trying to assemble the best rotation in the MLB in over a decade.
Just take a step back and realize.. That rotation of Peavy/Harden/Z/Demp/Lilly, and anyone in that rotation could win 20 games with our current team. But with a Dunn/Bradley/Abreu/Ibanez, it just wouldn’t be fair.
Can you imagine a worn out team, say the Brewers come in to town. They will be like “we get to miss Peavy!!” but they get to enjoy Harden, Z, Demp or Lilly :)
Devin Hester, you are ridiculous! -Jeff Joniak
by ARAM FOR MVP on Dec 7, 2008 1:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well...
… you could slot Sean Marshall into that 5th slot, then, but there are concerns about his durability. At least Marquis eats up innings and helps save the bullpen. You might not get that with Marshall.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 7, 2008 3:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Marquis and innings
Marquis makes a lot of starts, but he had several last season where he didn’t make it past the fifth inning. That’s almost as hard on your bullpen as the guy that has to be scratched from a start at the last minute.
by FrankSereno on Dec 7, 2008 8:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of Jason's shorter outings came while he still had gas in the tank.
Lou gave Jason an early hook often.
As an example, there’s the June 14 game at Toronto. The Cubs were up 6-0 when Jason was pulled having thrown 78 pitches, 49 for strikes. Marquis gave up three singles in the top of the 8th and Lou went to Carlos Marmol. Sure the bases were loaded and Marquis hadn’t recorded an out in the 8th. But he also hadn’t been hit hard, either, and he had handled the Jays easily the whole rest of the game.
I totally understand why Lou doesn’t trust Marquis. But Marquis is capable of pitching more innings than the Cubs have used him for. You just know that for every two innings he’s out there, he’s going to give up a run.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Dec 7, 2008 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Please check the stats
Marquis only once didn’t make it past 5.
In comparison, Z didn’t get far 4 times.
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2008 4:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Marquis - eating innings
he averaged less than 6 innings per start, i don’t get this eating-innings propaganda, just as he did in 2007
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 7, 2008 9:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It is called game management
Going into a regular season every team will win 1/3 of their games——period.
They are going to lose 1/3 of their games——-period.
The rest is the mix where the standings is determined. One of that is managing your bullpen where innings eating is part of that. You look for your starters to provide you 6 IP per start…that is why it is called a quality start where the starter performs giving up less than 3 runs in those 6 innings.
That means you are in the game…..in those 1/3 or those 54 games (plus the other 54 games you should win). Last year the Cubs won 97 or almost 80% of those games that was statistically in doubt.
Marquis gave the Cubs 167 IP over 29 starts or 5.2 IP per start—-almost a perfect 6 IP per start. He had 13 quality starts and won 11 of those games. Therefore Piniella can manage his bullpen in front of him (to prepare for the 3 innings Marquis leaves) and the start after him.
It is not propaganda it is reality. Now the problem is if you have a team that is win now….then you look to close up the weak links in the chain…..If you can field a 5 man rotation that takes the mound is better in each pitcher than the one they are facing this changes the above formula by percentage points. The Peavy-Z-Dempster-Lilly-Harden rotation if it remained healthy 32 times 5 starts would be extraordinary (2 to a swing)…..but let us be real. Harden has not done that so his starts should be expected 25——(roughly 3 below the 5th starter’s normal rotation), thus placing one start on the 4 starters plus plus 3 to a swing or 5 starts.
If Marshall is the swing than he averages less than 5 IP per start and that will add more pressure on bullpen. Then you have Z and Peavy also should not be expected to go 33 starts, let us say each are skipped 3 times in the year or 6more games. Now the swing starter is looking at 11 starts through the year and possibly not distributed equally.
So now an Innings eater is really critical for during the grind part of the season Mid-May through September you need to manage your bullpen.
Finally the biggest reason why professional athletes get hurt is fatigue—-
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
by Ivy Walls on Dec 7, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
but he's not "eating" the innings
was my point….
he’s averaging less than 6 per start, the same as most other 4th-5th starter types. He’s been sold as so much more valuable because he’s “eating innings” when he’s not consuming those innings at a higher rate than his counterparts i don’t see how he can be SO valued at doing this
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 8, 2008 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That looks like a pretty menacing rotation
but I would still have to temper my enthusiasm somewhat, as I remember what happened the last time we had the best rotation in baseball. (Wood, Prior, Maddux, Zambrano, Clement)
"The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible." ~Arthur C. Clarke
by Goodie1969 on Dec 7, 2008 9:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's my question...
Didn’t anyone else besides Hendry anticipate Marquis’ contract looking stooopid expensive the last season he was with us? I know the economy is not what is was, but eyebrows had to be raised (I remember they were on BCB).
I’m fine with keeping Marquis for one more season if the other option is cleaning out our farm for Peavy. If it means getting an okay prospect or two and eat a chunk of the contract, then let Marshall start. Work your magic JH!
by socalicubsfan on Dec 7, 2008 9:24 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
And the media.............
………….has NEVER backed Hendry into a corner on WHY he felt compelled to give so much for so long to Marquis.
No other team was ever rumored to be involved with Marquis and yet Hendry offered up this absurd deal. He should have been taken behind the wood shed, or at least been forced to explain the reasons behind such a deal, but, alas, he’s gotten off the hook since 2006.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 7, 2008 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
same for the Soriano deal
He is rumored to have offered significantly more than anyone else for Soriano. I’d also like to know why he overpays these guys then also gives many of them no-trade clauses.
by dmlichte on Dec 7, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm stupified why Cubs fans have this attitude
For so long we were the team that wouldn’t get the big name free agent. I’m happy Hendry did what he needed to do. Hindsight is ALWAYS gonna be 20/20. Hendry and the Tribune company are giving the Cubs the resources they need to become a WS champ. We know what it’s like to be on the opposite side of the FA wars, let’s not complain.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Dec 7, 2008 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so...
… you’d rather have the Cubs spend money on any player versus the right player?
by dmlichte on Dec 7, 2008 2:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Would YOU rather have the Cubs not even try?
For years we complained that the Cubs didn’t spend money. Now that they are, people complain that they aren’t earning what they are paid.
When you have to compete with teams like the BoSox and Yankees for FA’s, some times we are going to have to overpay for them. It’s the nature of the beast.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Dec 7, 2008 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So trying stupidly is okay?
Has it come to that?
“Hendry did what he needed to do”? In the case of Marquis, is there any evidence that would indicate 3 years and $21 million was required? NO!
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 7, 2008 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure that goes without saying
BUT I think Marquis has earned every penny so far.
The same goes for Sori if he stays healthy.
I think at the time of the Sori signing it was absolutely the right thing to do. What Sori does is out of Hendry’s control. He’s doing everything he can to make the Cubs a WS champ.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Dec 7, 2008 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Marquis has.........
………..performed well enough to collect a check. My point is the check should have never been so large in the first place.
With no other (even rumored) alternatives in the market at the time, giving Marquis 2 years for 10 million, for example, should have been more than enough to secure his services. Had that happened we could all be saying how Hendry “stole” Marquis instead of the ongoing debate as to why we still have him on the squad.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 7, 2008 4:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
2 years at $10 million?
You must not remember that off season very well. Pitchers were at a premium. Moreover, the economy was much different as well.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Dec 7, 2008 4:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As stated previously.............
……….there were no other rumors in the market for Marquis, let alone bona fide offers. If the Cubs had to outbid another team, I could at least follow Hendry’s thought process, but there was absolutely no indication that Marquis was drawing interest from any other team.
Meanwhile he was coming off a 14-16 season while being backed by a WS winner, with an ERA over 6 and a WHIP north of 1.5. Call me silly, but these are not the kind of stats that would dictate a 3-year deal and $21 million.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 7, 2008 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But your argument is flawed bc....
…..you don’t know what the market was for Marquis. First of all I find it hard to believe that you remember what the rumors were at the time. Second of all you threw out some ridiculous contract of 2 years for $10 million.
If what you’re saying is true, then I’d agree with you. But I don’t believe that those things are true.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Dec 7, 2008 4:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I challenge you to Google..........
………..Jason Marquis for ANYTHING in the last three months of 2006.
You know what you will find? NOTHING until the Cubs announced their absurd intentions.
Wouldn’t you think “the market” would have bubbled up SOMETHING as it related to teams/years/dollars for this guy? Why is it that the ONLY thing ever heard about Marquis during the 2006 off-season was the Cubs’ offer?
It’s simple: It was a bad deal and all the other clubs knew it. And that’s why I remember.
And not only do I remember the Marquis case, but that same winter the Cubs inked Ted Lilly. Strangely, Lilly’s name was mentioned by the Yankees, the Giants and to perhaps remain with his team at the time, the Blue Jays. Various levels of $$$ and duration were also mentioned. Because of such banter, we could understand the background of the Lilly deal.
But there was no such chatter with Marquis. Zip. Nil. Nada. Doesn’t that make you wonder how Hendry cooked up his offer?
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 7, 2008 9:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know...
… that OTHERS weren’t making offers to Marquis that we didn’t hear about?
People often talk here as if the things we hear publicly are the ONLY things that are going on regarding baseball transactions. They are most emphatically NOT.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 7, 2008 10:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Where there's smoke..........
………..there’s fire, Al, and there was never any smoke with Marquis.
It is possible that there were other suitors, but the fact remains there is ZERO “public” evidence to that effect.
Sorry, but in these times of widespread information, I find that very, very hard to believe. Even you have “Deep Goat”, which gives us some insight to the behind-the-scenes stuff. Again, there was no such activity/gossip surrounding the signing of Jason Marquis in 2006.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 8, 2008 7:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right...
… there was no gossip around that signing at all.
If you look at the signings of other teams, there is often no gossip about those, either. Example: who expected the Angels to sign Torii Hunter last year? That came out of the blue.
There are other such signings.
I’m not necessarily saying Hendry was right, only that there may be things that we do not know and never will know about the Marquis signing.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 8, 2008 9:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
And going back to the Lilly deal, puts a little perspective on the Marquis deal. It seemed crazy the contract we gave to Lilly at the time, but that’s what pitchers where commanding during that time.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Dec 8, 2008 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gloves off.
I don’t think you were alive during the 2006 off season.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 9, 2008 12:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not trying to be a jerk, Al, but..........
………there were many rumors about Torii Hunter during the off season last year.
He had dinner with Tom Hicks of the Rangers. That’s merely on example of the chatter, er, facts, surrounding Torii Hunter last year.
By comparison, who did Jason Marquis dine with over the 2006 off season?
This is my point. In most cases there is SOMETHING about a player being exposed in the media. True…..False…..Immaterial……SOMETHING, but that did not happen with Marquis. It went from the Cards leaving him off a WS roster to him inking with the Cubs.
ZERO EVIDENCE OF ANYONE WANTING HIM TO PLAY FOR THEIR SQUAD.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 9, 2008 12:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So I guess my position is
They weren’t stupid signings.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Dec 7, 2008 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
At the time
Soriano was the best FA available
Cubwynn is right. When you compete with the Big boys, Mets & Dodgers
You have to show FA that this is not the Cubs of the past.
Like everyone else, I was elated about the Soriano deal
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy."
- Dodgers, Astros, Brewers, A's & Angels pitcher Don Sutton
by CubFreak on Dec 8, 2008 12:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow you're jumping over like five steps in an argument
I’d rather the Cubs not even try? Thats inane. Because the Cubs for years passed on free agents, then decided to spend foolishly (IMO) that means I’d prefer the cubs go back to not spending? Those are two really bad options but they’re not the only options. You’re making a few false assumptions here and I think you’re really missing the point.
I want the Cubs to spend money but I also want them to spend it wisely. I also understand that the Cubs and other teams operate within a budget so when you spend money in one place, especially with large contracts, you cannot spend elsewhere. So I guess if you want to be stoopified, thats your choice, but I think its pretty simple to understand why some people take issue with Hendry’s spending.
As for your statement that Marquis and Soriano have earned every penny, wow do I disagree.
by dmlichte on Dec 7, 2008 9:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hendry did not necessarily make a "stupid" mistake.
1. After the 2006 season, he desperately needed a pitcher who — if nothing else — always takes the ball. (cf. Prior, Mark)
2. He got Marquis for only a three year commitment. (cf. Lilly, Ted or Meche, Gil or Zito, Barry)
3. He got Marquis for a $7M AAV. (cf. Lilly, Ted or Meche, Gil or Zito, Barry)
4. He got Marquis for a cheap enough first year ($4.75M) that he could afford another player in his budget (Mark DeRosa).
5. $9.875M is not worth as much in 2009 as it was in 2007.
6. Hendry knew that the worst case scenario was that he would have to kick in $3M-$4M to trade him in the last year, which essentially means that his first two seasons cost $7M each. The best case scenario is that he would be valuable enough to trade straight up for somebody.
7. Marquis has done exactly what he was brought in to do — stabilize the back end of the rotation — and Hendry paid no more than market rate for that production.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on Dec 7, 2008 1:59 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Thank you.
Two more things should be pointed out.
1) The article linked here castigates the Mets for not taking the deal. There’s some perspective for us Cub fans. It says the Mets didn’t take the deal, not because they didn’t like Marquis, but because they hoped to trade Heilman as part of a larger deal. That implies a Heilman-Marquis swap was seen as fair, just not the best deal the Mets could get with Heilman.
2) Hendry probably could have moved Marquis last year if the Twins had taken one of the Johan deals they got at the Winter Meetings instead of dragging the deal out and collapsing the market for the rest of the back-end starters.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Dec 7, 2008 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Back end of the rotation?
In 2007, only Lilly and Zambrano were ahead of Marquis on the depth chart.
In 2008, the same could be said, but the emergence of Dempster and the trade for Harden moved him to the back of the rotation.
Sorry, but Big Jim couldn’t have envisioned this when he cut the deal in December of 2006.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Dec 7, 2008 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In 2007,
Marquis was expected to be #4 behind Z, Lilly, and Hill. He was nominally the “#3” because Lou wanted to split up Lilly and Hill.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on Dec 7, 2008 5:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well stated.
This is the Truth about Jason Marquis as I see it as well.
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 8, 2008 10:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If they eat up to 4M of this deal, his market should increase
You’d be getting an above average #5 for 5M on a one year deal, that has to make him more appealing as well as his history of being on a winner, strange as that might be.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Dec 7, 2008 9:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget
For a lot of teams, he won’t be just a #5. We have the luxury of calling him our #5 because the rest of our staff is so loaded.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Dec 7, 2008 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Marquis Market
The ideal thing to do if our only off-season worry was trading Marquis would be to wait for more starters to sign. Marquis at 1yr/9M is not a bad deal. We could unload the whole contract if we waited. Marquis is no one’s first choice, but eventually he’ll become attractive.
Hendry is trying to kickstart the market so he can move on other pieces.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Dec 7, 2008 2:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe this was the rumored third team?
And Heilman the young pitcher headed to San Diego in the Peavy deal?
by Wreckard on Dec 7, 2008 10:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Heilman isn't young.
He’s 30.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 7, 2008 11:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
heilman
rather than debating marquis for the millionth time, let’s talk about heilman….i lived in CT for the last few years and watched a lot of mets games…and i cannot stand this guy. he was awful last year, tons and tons of walks and homers, but even in previous years he’s one of those guys who really seems to struggle in big spots.
i guess the difference is that the cubs would be getting him as a 7th inning/early guy whereas the mets had him as their 8th inning guy and in lots of big situations. i said many times “i can’t see the mets making the playoffs with aaron heilman as their top setup guy”…..and they didn’t!
i say this trade is not worth it….i also would say don’t worry about trading marquis if that’s what’s stopping you from getting peavy or an outfielder…if you’re willing to pay a few mill, someone will definitely take him in spring training as some pitcher on a contender will be hurt or a younger guy gets shelled in ST.
by GreenLantern411 on Dec 7, 2008 11:04 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU I AGREE!!!
I too have been in the CT area and agree with you! I was saying this on the last post too.
Heilman is 100% the reason the Mets didn’t make the post season the last two years. He’s not very good and gives up tons of HR’s. Imagine how’d he do in Wrigley. Anyone who thinks this guy can help the Cubs has not followed him at all. The guy is hated in NY and bashed on the radio here day in and day out. Our bullpen is weaker this year as it is, we don’t need to make it one of the worst in the NL.
I’ll leave you with this: You’ll wish Howry were pitching in the 7th by May if Heilman is on The Cubs. You can quote me on that.
by ak123 on Dec 7, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes but the Marquis haters
would be happy to trade Marquis for the second coming of Bobby Howry.
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2008 4:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the argument...
outside of cubsluver22’s bizarre hatred, is that we can move forward with other needs once we know if we can shed some or all of his salary. Even if we get back junk, perhaps getting rid of Marquis is a prelude to the Peavy deal. Or his slot is given to Marshall and the money goes towards Furcal/Dunn/etc. We have some pitching depth right now, so an average Marquis is expendable.
Free Ronny Cedeno
by Kansas25 on Dec 7, 2008 4:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes but
You take pieces in that could hamper getting us to the post season. In actuality Marquis has contributed to the team with enough wins to say he “helped us” get to postseason. Look at his stats in 2007, he led the team in games won that he started in.
Adding Heilman adds a potential problem to the bullpen. Gregg isn’t an improvement in the 8th inning and Heilman wouldn’t be an improvement in the 7th. Adding Heilman unless he’s traded someplace else quickly makes no sense.
by ak123 on Dec 7, 2008 5:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Heilman
If a single reliever was the difference between the Mets making the playoffs and missing them, that is all entirely on the Mets’ management and not on the player. A single reliever can be dropped or pushed to the back of the ’pen.
In the Mets’ case, Omar Minaya risked having a ‘pen with a top reliever who had shown difficulty getting through the season and a lot of question marks. That’s on Omar for failing to build a better bullpen. He could have traded for Scott Eyre.
As for Heilman himself, he was a good reliever for years before last year. He may be done. He may not be. I’d take the risk, knowing that if worst comes to worst, I can DFA him.
I doubt that whatever we get back for Marquis is going to be polished and fit perfectly. But sometimes you can find diamonds in the rough. Jim Hendry, I believe, has actually excelled at that.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Dec 7, 2008 7:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hendry has been great
He has been good about finding the diamonds in the rough. But Heilman wasn’t very good in 2007 or 2008. And the problem is, Lou’s weak spot is also using a the reliever that makes you cringe. This is why I wouldn’t want Heilman on the team.
Marquis is owed a lot of money this year and I’m not opposed trading him. I think that’s a good idea. I just don’t like having someone brought onto the team whose presence will take wins away from The Cubs.
by ak123 on Dec 7, 2008 10:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Money going towards Furcal?
Where would you put him? What move The Riot to second? DeRosa stays in right?
Just asking, please elaborate
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy."
- Dodgers, Astros, Brewers, A's & Angels pitcher Don Sutton
by CubFreak on Dec 8, 2008 12:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Money going to Furcal part 2
That question was directed to Kansas25…unless someone else has heard something regarding Furcal
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy."
- Dodgers, Astros, Brewers, A's & Angels pitcher Don Sutton
by CubFreak on Dec 8, 2008 12:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I'd like to do
Or Roberts for that matter
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Dec 8, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs not in Furcal's Final Four
MLB.com has reported that Furcal is down to 4 teams
A’s Giants Dodgers and the Royals
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy."
- Dodgers, Astros, Brewers, A's & Angels pitcher Don Sutton
by CubFreak on Dec 9, 2008 8:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs





















