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Aramis Ramirez enjoys Cockfighting as well........

6821_heading_tiny by Walker71421 on

A story just posted in the Sun cites and interview he gave in the Dominican for a Cockfighting magazine (They have magazines for Cockfighting?????) I'm interested to get feedback on other Cubs fans feelings on this, does it change your feelings about
him as a ballplayer?  

(not sure how to post a link, I'm a technological caveman)

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/794462,ramirez021408.article

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation, Bleed Cubbie Blue, or Al Yellon, editor-in-chief. FanPost opinions are, however, valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Damnit
Why? I really don't want to feel conflicted whenever he hits a homer.

But I have a feeling I will.

by WittyUserName on Feb 14, 2008 11:40 AM CST   0 recs

He has always been one of my favorite Cubs...
But I don't like to imagine him watching Chickens peck each other to death..even if it is legal
Chuck Norris is a Cubs fan...

by Walker71421 on Feb 14, 2008 11:44 AM CST   0 recs

So what?
It's part of their culture.  I don't hear anybody complain about ball players that hunt!  

by McRipper on Feb 14, 2008 11:55 AM CST   0 recs

Or...
attend boxing matches/UFC events...or a...

KUMITE!

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 14, 2008 12:28 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

UFC
I've heard some women say the UFC was the same thing. Go figure.

by JohnMan on Feb 15, 2008 7:46 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Re: part of the culture
See my post below regarding something being part of a culture.

by John Q Freejazz on Feb 14, 2008 1:18 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

A bit disappointing, no doubt
But since cockfighting is a legal part of the DR's culture, this is a non-issue in my mind.

by The V is for Vegetable on Feb 14, 2008 11:58 AM CST   0 recs

cock-fighting
is part of many latino cultures including Mexican. I agree with the sentiment expressed above that we dont complain about players that hunt birds of all kinds, deer even bears.

If Michael Vick was from a country and/or ethnicity that accepts dog fighting as part of it's culture and he went to do it there, we might not have had an issue with that either.

"We're going to turn this team around 360 degrees." -Jason Kidd

by tony412 on Feb 14, 2008 12:07 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

oh my gosh give me a break
this is big over there, who cares is all i have to say.  so the guy has a hobby, ohhh no!

mcripper above puts it best, hunting is a hobby over here where we KILL animals, watching a couple chickens flirt with each other... not gonna lose any sleep over this one.

Bill James Felix Pie 2008 Projection: .283/.333/.456 16 HR 21 SB

by kylejo on Feb 14, 2008 12:03 PM CST   0 recs

I coulda been a contenda!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 14, 2008 12:11 PM CST   0 recs

Daver grimaces...then shrugs
I can't say that I'm thrilled to learn that ARam is into cockfighting, but this knowledge really doesn't change all that much for me. I mean, I'm not crazy about bullfighting either, but if I found out Alfonso Soriano used to be a matador, it wouldn't keep me from looking forward to watching him take balls out of the park in a couple months.

I suppose a story like this raises the whole issue of how we, as human beings, tend to assign differing levels of worth on different animals. Tell me ARam is engaged in dog fighting (a la Michael Vick) and suddenly this turns into a horror story/scandal that could affect the Cubs entire season. Tell me he likes to watch roosters peck the stuffing out of each other and...meh. I mean, if those same birds were female, we'd be hacking their heads off and eating them. (Most of us, at least. I'm a former vegetarian myself.)  Maybe that's not fair, but I think that's how most people will see this.

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by dat cubfan daver on Feb 14, 2008 12:16 PM CST   0 recs

Come on man...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 14, 2008 12:21 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Irresponsible, offensive, and immature
That's a totally irresponsible, offensive, and immature response to a rational post.  I often find your pictures humorous, but I hope you use better judgment in the future.

by John Q Freejazz on Feb 14, 2008 1:23 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

You obviously...
don't know daver like I do, but my apologies if your offended by an insult to vegetarians.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 14, 2008 1:33 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Well...
...as I am one, I was offended. :-)  But I appreciate your apology.  Thanks.

by John Q Freejazz on Feb 14, 2008 1:39 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

re: You obviously...
Yeah, for starters, I said (and am) a former vegetarian -- which, to some, is the worst kind of all. And second, even if I was still a vegetarian, I wouldn't take offense to an obviously good-natured jab like that. I can't find the exact quote at the moment, but famed chef/author Anthony Bourdain wrote something along the lines of "the first thing most vegetarians seem to lose when they stop eating meat is their sense of humor."
Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by dat cubfan daver on Feb 14, 2008 1:46 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'm not one to tell people....
what they should & shouldn't be offended at, but my goodness........its a slab of meat.  
BELIEVE!

by cubbie08 on Feb 14, 2008 3:58 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

This is better
My girlfriends bumper sticker reads

"Save a Cow, Eat a Vegetarian"

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Feb 14, 2008 4:02 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Even better
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 14, 2008 4:13 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah
My favorite: If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did He make them out of food?
Go Cubbies!

by NC Cubs Fan on Feb 15, 2008 1:13 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

FWIW
Before anyone gets all pissy.  I generally and genuinely love vegetarians, and once went two years without eating beef.  I also happen to have a sense of humor.
Go Cubbies!

by NC Cubs Fan on Feb 15, 2008 1:14 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Real classy
Thanks so much for your contributions to the discussion.

by John Q Freejazz on Feb 14, 2008 5:00 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

oooooooooooooo!
"Because I saw this movie called 'Liar Liar' and the message was 'don't lie.' --Cal

by nextyearcub on Feb 15, 2008 12:02 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

And a statement
"Nobody likes a vegetarian."

Well, I'm a vegetarian.

by John Q Freejazz on Feb 14, 2008 5:00 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Ouch...
you took that one too far man. Let's not continue to have fun at his expense. Give the guy a break, he didn't come here to be beat over the head about his dietary lifestyle.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 14, 2008 5:29 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

The real question
is whether or not these chickens are steroid and hormone free.  I'd be real upset if this was juiced up cockfighting.
Dunn, Duncan, Lee, Bay, and now Braun... I hope the Cubs are practicing hitting to LF!

by DGU on Feb 14, 2008 12:29 PM CST   0 recs

Terrible
Cockfighting is animal abuse at its worst.  I find it very disturbing that Aramis Ramirez is involved in such a thing, let alone has the balls to be publicly quoted on the subject.  

Sorry, but this really, really sucks.   In the wake of the Michael Vick fiasco you would think professional athletes (and anybody in general) would have new sensitivity to this crap.  

It just goes to show, some of the biggest scumbags on earth are the people that are hero worshipped on a ballfield.    

by MDBNIU on Feb 14, 2008 12:31 PM CST   0 recs

Dude, get a grip!
It's a chicken.  Dogs and chickens are entirley different because a) dogs are pets, and b) we don't eat dogs.  Well some of us anyway.

by McRipper on Feb 14, 2008 12:34 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Whatever
You watch.  There is going to be a maelstrom over this one.  The media and those PETA folks are going to jump on this in a big way.   Thank you Aramis for this distraction.  

by MDBNIU on Feb 14, 2008 12:41 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

re: Whatever
I disagree. As I stated above, there may be a few (ahem) feathers ruffled by this story but, overall, most people will shrug it off for the reasons I mentioned. In no way will ARam receive even a significant percentage of the scorn heaped upon Michael Vick.
Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by dat cubfan daver on Feb 14, 2008 12:46 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I disagree
Mostly because this isn't an American issue, it's a hispanic issue.  And because it's been about 2-3 weeks since Pedro was mentioned and he is by far a bigger name than Aramiz and I haven't heard a peep about this anywhere.

by McRipper on Feb 14, 2008 12:47 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Right.
The difference is, cockfighting is legal in the DR.

Now, you can get into a discussion of whether this is a good thing or not (I'd say it's not). But as long as it's legal, I don't think it will be a big deal.

Personally, I don't see the point of men standing around watching chickens peck each other to death.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2008 12:49 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Agreed
I don't for one second think it's a good thing.  But I also don't think its a big deal.  I'm with you, I just don't get it.

by McRipper on Feb 14, 2008 12:53 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

LOL....
yes, maybe Pamela Anderson can go down to the Dominican and protest. I'm sure that will go over just fine.

It won't matter to anyone. We only want to save the cute animals. Why aren't you upset over the Cows that we killed to cover the balls and make the gloves...and shoes...and belts? Or the trees we murder to make bats? Us humans are an evil lot...killing living things to enhance our own amusement.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 14, 2008 12:48 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

That's right!
I'm gonna gitcha, ARam! Just as soon as I drop off these plates of carbohydrates and green beans and right after I get married, divorced, remarried, redivorced and so forth again!

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by dat cubfan daver on Feb 14, 2008 12:59 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I doubt
I doubt there's going to be much of a deal over this. The same thing happened to Pedro a couple weeks ago and he basically said "It's part of the culture in my country, sorry about that." and it was over.

by morgane on Feb 14, 2008 1:44 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

wikipedia says....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockfighting

Read up before you get your panties in a bunch.

Cockfighting has historical significance even the United States.

"We're going to turn this team around 360 degrees." -Jason Kidd

by tony412 on Feb 14, 2008 12:48 PM CST   0 recs

I don't see the big deal
It's just a part of culture, as is cricket fighting in some asian cultures. It's not like he's partaking in some illegal underground cock fighting here in the states, it' s back in his hometown where it is a legitimate hobby and some could say sport. I say don't criticize a guy because his culture says something is ok when ours says it isnt.

by ams05g on Feb 14, 2008 12:48 PM CST   0 recs

What!!!!!!!!!!!
They kill crickets too!!!!????

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 14, 2008 12:51 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

LOL
Man, where do you come up with this stuff?

by McRipper on Feb 14, 2008 12:54 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

LMAO ! ! !
As a lover of manatees, bad (& good) puns, and a vegetarian I applaud you.

by slide on Feb 15, 2008 5:37 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Part of the culture
This is not a sound argument.

Slavery was part of American culture for hundreds of years.  That does not make it right.

Female genital mutilation is part of the culture in parts of Africa.  That does not make it right.

Now, cockfighting is not to be equated with the above, but rather those cases illustrate that just because something is part of a culture it is not inherently right.  That cockfighting is part of Dominican culture does not make it right.

by John Q Freejazz on Feb 14, 2008 1:15 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Are you seriously...
comparing slavery to cockfighting?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 14, 2008 1:19 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Did you read my caveat?
I clearly stated cockfighting is not to be equated with slavery or female genital mutilation.

The original argument was:

"It's okay because it's part of Dominican culture."

So, ___ is morally permissible if it is part of a culture, this argument alleges.

I gave two clear counterexamples to this argument:

  1. Slavery was part of American culture; slavery is wrong. Therefore, "being part of a culture" does not make something morally permissible.
  2. Forced female genital mutilation is part of some African cultures; forced female genital mutilation is wrong.  Therefore, "being part of a culture" does not make something morally permissible.
Cockfighting may be not nearly as clearcut as those cases.

However, these cases clearly demonstrate the fallacy of the argument that "if something's part of a culture it is morally permissible."  I clearly debunk this argument.

by John Q Freejazz on Feb 14, 2008 3:00 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I resent
that you used my comments to assume that i said it's ok because it's part of their culture.  That's not what i said.  If you reread my original post, i said "Who cares?  It's part of their culture."  Just because you have a problem with cockfighting, doesn't mean anybody else does.  I said in another post that I don't condone cockfighting but also that i don't give a chicken's ass that others do.  With that being said, i'm done commenting on this diary.

by McRipper on Feb 14, 2008 3:05 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I was responding to Florida....
I was responding to Florida....'s comments which suggested that something being in a culture makes it outside our morality.

by John Q Freejazz on Feb 14, 2008 3:11 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I clearly don't care...
Chickens are delicious...

Next your tell us that kids owning sea-monkeys is wrong.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 14, 2008 3:06 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

When in Rome...
I agree to a point with you.  However, it IS a part of their culture.  Does that make it right?  No, not really.  But how is it OUR place to make a big deal about it?  If history shows us anything, it's that each culture has to come to these decisions on their own.  Slavery was not abolished due to external forces.  It ended due to a revolution in the thinking of THIS nation.  Not because some bigger country decided they didn't like it and imposed their beliefs on us.  If and when the DR decides to change its way of thinking/laws about cockfighting, then become outraged.  

Though your points have merit, so do everyone elses.  Yes, it may be wrong.  But yes, it is still a part of their culture and therefore we can't really condemn them so much for it.

by jjmarie30 on Feb 14, 2008 6:18 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Seriously
That's ridiculous.
"Because I saw this movie called 'Liar Liar' and the message was 'don't lie.' --Cal

by nextyearcub on Feb 15, 2008 12:03 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

And you
are not the one to make the judgement wheter its right or not- Thats for the citizens of the dominican republic to decide for themselves. For Americans to sit here and pass judgement on cockfighting smacks of a bit of imperial superiority- And looking around the majority of BCB has rejected this attitude and adopted (the correct one imo) of not condoning cockfighting but allowing soverign nation's and their citizens to decide their own courses of action.

For PETA are any other animal rights group to ask for any kind of censure here agaisnt latino players for what they do in their own countries is absurd. Its those exact actions which give America and Americans images as controlling, smug jerks abroad. Im glad most here resisted the urge to attempt and brand our values on everyone else.

"Just say Smith or Jones again, it dont matter, none of this matters"

by ksucubbie on Feb 14, 2008 1:38 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Agreed.
It's not right for our culture, and as you said, most of BCB has said it's not right, but we don't have the right to dictate what other cultures think is right.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2008 2:15 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Thank-you!
n/t
"...the Sox ... may be even more marginal after the Cubs win the 2007 World Series." - Cubbie fan "Joe Alberti" as posted in the White Sox NG on 9/21/2007.

by DrCrawdad on Feb 14, 2008 11:06 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Completely wrong
See my above clarification of my argument.

This is clear:

being part of a culture does not make it morally permissible

How far can you take this idea?  Granted, cockfighting is not close to being the biggest moral issue facing the world, but at what point does one stop saying something's okay because the people's culture think it's okay?

If torture is condoned by people, does that make it right?

If rape is condoned, does that make it right?

If genocide is condoned, does that make it right?

Obviously not.  

My point is:

We may not always agree with each other on what is morally right or wrong, but merely because something is condoned or accepted in a culture does not make that thing automatically morally permissible.

by John Q Freejazz on Feb 14, 2008 3:07 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

why even
take your examples to such extremes? we arent talking about genocide, this diary is talking about cock fighting and aramis ramirez

being part of a culture does not make it morally permissible-- To you, and your morals are not transferable to the rest of the planet. What you define as Genocide is someone else's civil war, your definiton of torture isnt the same as someone else's ect

Culture isnt an automatic get out of jail free card and no one has argued that point- in this case- the case of cockfighting in the D.R.- our concepts of right and wrong apply to our own personal moral code and thats as far as our judgement should go.

"Just say Smith or Jones again, it dont matter, none of this matters"

by ksucubbie on Feb 14, 2008 3:39 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Why even?
Because they illustrate a point clearly based on things we can agree are morally wrong, that's all.

by John Q Freejazz on Feb 14, 2008 5:05 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

You made your own point
To compare cock fighting to slavery and the destruction of a females abiltiy to produce is absurd, geez fellas lets all take a step back.
 Listen I won't go to cock fighting event, had the opportunity in the Phillipines, not my cup of tea. But here in the old good USA we watch men beat the living hell out of each other in UFC, and other backyard nonsense. But LEGAL cock-fighting we lose are minds, sorry can't see the uproar.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Feb 14, 2008 2:47 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

When the purpose of the UFC
is to KILL your opponent then compare, until then not a good comparison.

There is a ref in the UFC right?  Does he stop the fight if a guy is getting pummeled and unable to defend? In cock fighting this means your winning.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Feb 14, 2008 2:52 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I dont condone it
Im just arguing the other half of the discussion.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Feb 14, 2008 2:52 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Gee John
It nice that you are the morality police for the world.  I know, I really don't care what players do in the off season, just like I don't care for your PC based sense of outrage.  

Fight'em, cook'em I don't care.

by cubswin on Feb 14, 2008 2:52 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Hi
Nice to meet you, too.

Please see my above clarifications.

by John Q Freejazz on Feb 14, 2008 3:08 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

"Please see my above clarifications"?
Which ones?  

REEEEEEEEEEEELAX.

MMMMM...Nutrisystem!

by Kinky Reggae on Feb 15, 2008 1:18 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I think he has
to break the Prozac's in half.

Gees, we're not talking about Vick and dogs here in the U.S. It's chickens in the DR. Their laws are different.

If anyone is so hell bent on ranting and raving about this, they should take their ass down to the DR and protest.

Lemme know how that turns out please.

by blackhawk24 on Feb 15, 2008 1:25 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Seriously...
this is craziness.  Hop off that high horse.  This, while detestable to you, is permitted in the DR.  You truly should head on down there and protest outside the venues.
MMMMM...Nutrisystem!

by Kinky Reggae on Feb 15, 2008 1:29 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Not detestable to me
but I think JQF is bent about it...

by blackhawk24 on Feb 15, 2008 2:03 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I know
I meant JQF...
MMMMM...Nutrisystem!

by Kinky Reggae on Feb 15, 2008 6:19 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

FWIW
I'm not making a case that we should protest cockfighting in the DR.

I was just pointing out that to say something is morally permissible simply because it is an accepted part of a given culture is not correct.

by John Q Freejazz on Feb 15, 2008 6:51 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Dont' tell that to this guy...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 15, 2008 7:00 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

JQF
you are a pompous, self righteous loser.  Your sense of morality offends me.  Have some chicken, it will improve your feeble mind.  

by cubswin on Feb 15, 2008 8:13 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I really hope we don't see Peta out at Wrigley....
I really don't like those guys, they protest everything.....back when I was in high school, they protested over a charity donkey basketball game my school had planed.  We had to cancel it...and I never got to play basketball on a donkey...I'm still sad about that....
Chuck Norris is a Cubs fan...

by Walker71421 on Feb 14, 2008 12:57 PM CST   0 recs

long as
he's not doing it here, I'll just say "well, I don't get it, but then, I don't get the fact that I have TWO competitive fishing channels either" and move on.  However, please don't tell my fiancee, because as an ex-Marlins fan, she put enough of a hex on the Cubs as it is last year.
Worst to First in 2007, brought to you by Lou, Sori, A-Ram and D-Lee.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 14, 2008 12:59 PM CST   0 recs

The only thing that needs to happen
Someone from the front office shoud sit down with Aramis and tell him "What you do in the Dominican is your business, but please don't get involved with cockfighting in the US"

As long as this doesn't happen here, it shouldn't effect him or the Cubs.

I personally wouldn't do it but I'm not going to tell him what is right or wrong in his culture.

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on Feb 14, 2008 1:16 PM CST   0 recs

Who knew
that BCB readers were such cultural relativists?  
Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Feb 14, 2008 1:16 PM CST