Cubs Closer(s): 2008 Nasty Boys?

by The Ryno and I Know on Feb 19, 2008 11:10 AM CST Comment 49 comments

I've been thinking for a week or so about parallels between our closer situation and the 1990 Reds. I don't remember how it played out, only that Myers got the majority of the saves.

I think we've got great options for late inning work, and I'd be happy with any of the 3 working the 9th regularly.

Obviously, Marmol proved to be the only one with a true 'out' pitch last year so I'd lean towards him but since Lou is running the show we've at least got someone who has dealt with shuffling closers successfully in the past.

Any thoughts on who it should be and whether we need to work on naming rights for our trio of fireballers?

Also...I don't know how to creat a text box, but here is text from ESPN Spring Training blog:

HOWRY TO CLOSE FOR CUBS? (9:14 a.m. ET)
The Cubs enter spring training with a three-way competition for the closer's job, but manager Lou Piniella told WGN-TV in Chicago that Bobby Howry might have the edge based on the way he filled in for Ryan Dempster last season.

Howry has taken his "front-runner" status in stride.

"I have no inside information," Howry said, according to The Chicago Tribune. "Until you go through it and play it out in spring training, their thoughts and what they discuss behind closed doors and in their meetings is between them and isn't shared with us."

Kerry Wood and Carlos Marmol are the other candidates competing with Howry for the closer's job.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Piniella Previously Mentioned...

... that he will not go with a closer-by-committee scenario. He went on to mention that he will likely decide who it will be three-quarters the way through spring training.

I have to lean towards Howry as well. He's had experience in the past. He has the mentality for it. And he throws strikes.

Wood has to prove his durability - namely that he will be able to pitch 4 days per week, and potentially three days in a row. He also had an issue last year with control.

Personally, I think Piniella likes Marmol as the stopper before the close is necessary. He's got the stuff to do it.

What it will all come down to is who pitches the most strikes consistently...

My vote at this point is Howry.

Jacque Jones is gone and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!

by initram on Feb 19, 2008 11:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I like Howry as the closer also

Even if he is not the best reliever we have, he certainly has the stuff to close out the game. I'd love to see Marmol, Wood and Weurtz be the guys who come in and squash rallies.

Our bullpen is so full of firemen we could name the bullpen Engine house #78 in honor of the real CFD Engine house located across the street on Waveland Ave.

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on Feb 19, 2008 11:21 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

personally

i wish kerry wood was the closer but marmol is just plain filthy. i think the key to all of this is who can handle it mentally.

GO CUBS GO!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Feb 19, 2008 11:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Let's see

As far as the closer goes, I'd go with Wood (if he is durable enough) or maybe better for now, with Dempster. I don't think people realize just how good Dempster has been as a closer. The only thing that matters with a guy who is used exclusively for the 9th is his save percentage, and he has been at an almost elite level at that. Marmol, as for now, is more valuable when he comes in in the 6th-7th-8th as he can dominate whatever the situation. With the Reds of the 90's, Dibble was the most nasty and they were wise to use him setting up Myers, rather than the other way around. To be honest, I think Marmol-Dempster are very comparable to Dibble-Myers. I wouldn't consider Howry for the closer's job... he can be adequate, but not great.

All in all, the Cubs bullpen should be fantastic this year. There is room for people to struggle and the slack to be picked up by others (i.e., Howry struggles, you've got Wuertz).

by Luis on Feb 19, 2008 11:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

It Wasn't Too Long Ago...

... when there was Lidge-Dotel-Wagner. That was tough.

I remember at the time that I wanted that for the Cubs, because you did shave the game by a third.

Jacque Jones is gone and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!

by initram on Feb 19, 2008 8:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Whoever it is...

I like the way the pen looks in the late innings. I just hope Marmol continues to improve and puts the NLDS behind him. And more than that, I hope Wood stays healthy.

What I'm really excited about is seeing some of the new arms we could have in the pen. If they contribute this year and can display the stuff they're supposed to have, we may have the kind of bullpen where you're actually excited to see a pitching change.

by JDay on Feb 19, 2008 11:44 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

If I were manager

Dempster would still be the closer. He did a fine job last year and then you have 3 other guys who can set up the game for him. Could end up being a 6 inning game for opposing teams against the cubs.

by cubsmania on Feb 19, 2008 12:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

closer........

Agreed on dempster as far as doing a pretty decent job in the past. The reason I think people get on his case is because in the few instances when he's bad....he's REALLY BAD! But all in all 86% over 3 years I can deal with. It would be an imposing pen with Marmol,Howry and Woody to set up even with a shortage of LH options.

Ultimately, I think it will be Wood if Demp makes the rotation or is traded. I think he's got the stuff and more importantly, the mentality to really excel in that role. Lou probably does'nt want to annoint him yet given his injury history and the fsct that he Kerry needs to show he can go at least 3 days in a row. If he shows he can do that we just may have one of the games best and most dominant closers.

GO KERRY!

by plenz on Feb 19, 2008 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

wood can be great

he will have to prove to lou he can pitch atleast 2 or 3 days in a row. Even if he's not the closer I'd rather have dempster back in the pen...he's valuable there...he's no upgrade over other guys we have who we can pitch in the 5th spot in the rotation.

by cubsmania on Feb 19, 2008 5:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Howry, Marmol & Wood

in alphabetical order only.

Let the best man win. And, please, please, please, the 2 who don't, take it like men and go help your team mates!

by blackhawk24 on Feb 19, 2008 12:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

WANTED : Bullpen Southpaws.

what concerns me more than the closer situation is the fact that right now, we have only one lefty in the bullpen (Eyre). The guy who needs to step up and really have a good spring is Neal Cotts. As a fellow Illinois State guy (Go Redbirds!!) I have my own reasons for rooting for him, but alma mater aside, we need one more lefty in the pen. If teams know that Eyre is coming in every time there is a tough lefty hitting in the seventh or eighth inning, I don't like that scenario at all.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Feb 19, 2008 12:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Two words.

Carmen Pignatiello.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 19, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Spot on, Al

Pignatiello seems ready to make the major league plunge. The organization must think so too, getting him some MLB experience when they called him up late last season for a few appearances.

As far as other lefties go, what are the chances of Marshall entering the pen as a long reliever?

by JFG72 on Feb 19, 2008 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd think...

... with the plethora of starting pitcher options, it's a real possibility that Marshall, whose stamina is somewhat questionable, might wind up as a long reliever.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 19, 2008 1:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wuertz...

I know he isn't a closer candidate, but I think Michael Wuertz is a key to late inning relief as well. He was pretty solid last year and had some key scoreless relief appearances down the stretch.

His fastball isn't up there like "The Big 3", but his slider can be nasty at times. He also has a knack at getting us out of some tight spots.

"The one that invent the light tried 2,000 times and finally he did it, we have light...I don't want to spend 2,000 times to win Opening Day" Carlos Zambrano

by CubsBullsBears on Feb 19, 2008 12:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Wuertz........

may have some trade value too. I personally think he relies on his slider to much.....tends to walk too many in key spots. Overall he's done a decent job but I think the organization has too many really live arms for him to be around alot longer.

by plenz on Feb 19, 2008 1:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This won't be like the Nasty Boys.

One of the three will be chosen, and the others will be setup guys. The way baseball is these days is very different from how it was in 1990. Whether that's a good thing or not is a good subject for debate, but no manager today will go with a bullpen-by-committee like the 1990 Reds had.

In fact, Myers got the vast majority of the saves for that team.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 19, 2008 12:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Nasty boys were

Charlton 7th
Dibble 8th
Myers 9th

More or less it was set up that way. I think the Cubs can come up with something similar. And like someone previously said, if I were the manager Dempster would still be the closer. Hopefully it turns out that way.

by Luis on Feb 19, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Call me completely crazy.....

I was very skeptical about Dempster moving to the rotation all winter long. For some reason, maybe it's believing everything I'm reading about how hard he worked, how he has lost some weight and gotten in great shape, or maybe it's something in the water that is clouding my better judgement. But for some reason, all of a sudden I just have a good feeling about Dempster in the rotation. I'm not saying 20 wins or anything, but if he can take the ball every fifth day and eat up some innings, I don't know. This good feeling just kind of came out of left field over the last few days, and it's scaring me.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Feb 19, 2008 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The stats beg to differ...

That was the average alignment, but Dibble did get 11 saves. Piniella mixed it up a bit back there.

by SouthernCub on Feb 19, 2008 4:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Dibble's Usage

Dibble had 68 appearances in 1990, and few of them were the typical 'closer' situation. By inning, he came in during the 6th inning on 6 occasions, 25 in the 7th, 25 in the 8th and only 8 times in the 9th. Of those 9th inning starts, only two of them were save situations. Myers was definitely the main 'closer', beginning the game in the 8th or later in 63 of his 66 games. Charlton was actually a combo starter/reliever that year and was actually more effective as a starter (he had one complete game). At the time, I never understood why Dibble wasn't the closer. His stuff was sickening during that era; look up his game logs from 89-91. Guys were lucky to come close to one of his fastballs, and that breaking ball he threw was disgusting.

Since I left, I've always missed Chicago but never as much as I do right now!

by TMOX on Feb 19, 2008 6:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Why was Dibble better not closing

The reality of it is that you don't need as good stuff to pitch the 9th inning (starting with the bases empty) as you do when you are put into jams that develop in the 7th or 8th. That is why a guy like Borowski can be relative effective (save percentage wise) while having an ERA north of five (at least for a season). On the other hand, if you have an ERA of 5 and you are used to get out of jams it will turn out pretty bad.

Now, coming to back to Dibble and Myers. It's not that Dibble wouldn't have been a better closer, it's actually about the production from Dibble and Myers combined. So the question to ask is not wether Dibble would have been a better closer, but rather would Myers in the 7th/8th and Dibble in the 9th would have been better than the other way around. And I think that Myers, much like Dempster, would have been quite less effective when used in that role, so much so that it would have negated the benefits of having a more dominant closer.

Luis

by Luis on Feb 19, 2008 7:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ceda's odds of making the 25-man?

Anybody have any guesses as to the odds that Ceda makes the 25-man?

Although he's a righty, he's been ridiculous good against left-handed batters, who batted .065 off him in 2007, as this article mentions.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-080215-cubs-bits-chicago-spring-trai ning,1,1958034.story

There should be plenty of competition for the remaining bullpen spot, with Kevin Hart, Tim Lahey, Jose Ascanio and Neal Cotts among the other candidates.

by John Q Freejazz on Feb 19, 2008 12:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Pretty close to zero.

Ceda's barely pitched above A ball. He'll start the year at Double-A.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 19, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He'd better not

I can't understand why Lou is even entertaining the idea of Ceda in the 'pen this year.

Why not groom this guy as a STARTER???!!! It appears the Cubs have already decided to waste Marmol's true value by no longer grooming him as a future starter, so I can only hope they have some kind of plan to use Ceda to help replenish the AARP card-carrying members in our rotation.

Who do we have to replace Lilly, Leiber, Dempster & Marquis? Smardjiza? BUST. The soft-tossing Gallagher everyone's so fired-up about for some reason? Yikes. Les Walrond? Wow...

I realize quality young arms are tough to come by, which to me is all the more reason to not waste future starters like Ceda by stashing them in the 'pen for use only every sixth/seventh day.

Am I the only one freaking out about this??!!

by Shawon12 on Feb 19, 2008 8:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes.

And you've got it wrong. How can you call Samardzija a "bust" when he's pitched one professional season? Les Walrond is Triple-A roster filler, don't get your panties in a bunch about him.

Carlos Marmol doesn't have the stamina to be a starter. He proved that in 2006 -- but we also saw that he has the stuff and the temperament to be a dominant relief pitcher. Why would you want to put that sort of thing back in a place it's not suited for?

Ceda's talents and abilities scream "future closer", not "future starter". This year? No. He's only 21 years old. You ask who we have to replace older SP, and the answer is Marshall, Gallagher, Kevin Hart, and maybe one or two people who will step up in the system this year.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 19, 2008 8:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Two other guys...

...to keep an eye on if need arises (and I'm not campaigning for these guys, just spelling out some of our options) are Juan Mateo and Mark Holliman.

Mateo pitched moderately well in limited duty last year at AAA after coming back from injury - he's shown some flashes of real talent. Holliman is a pitch-to-contact sort, nothing real flashy, but in front of our defense it's possible he could survive for a while.

Long-term? Not so much - that's where you hope guys like Samardzija and Veal and Pawalek come through for you. But as a short-term emergency pitcher you could do worse. Hell, the White Sox just signed what's left of Bartolo Colon.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Feb 19, 2008 11:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just my opinion of Samardzija

I just don't see what all the fuss is about; no blazing fastball, little movement on his breaking pitches and even less control. Just like many before him, I expect that after this year when he doesn't get called up, he bolts for the NFL. That's where that kid belongs anyhow.

What do you guys see in Samardzija that gets you excited? I'm certainly no expert, so I'm obviously missing a lot.

Just as you think it's premature to label Samardzija a bust, I think its premature to label Marmol as "not having the stamina" to be a starter. We gave him 13 starts two years ago; he averaged approximately 5.2 innings/start. That's not bad at all for a rookie. We've got some guys on the staff this year who'll do about that.

Regarding Ceda, I just don't think the Cubs have the luxury of putting him in the 'pen. But then again I don't know which "talents and abilities scream 'future closer'...vs...'future starter'." All I look for is a guy's ability to pitch. What are those talents and abilities that signify closers/starters?

And as far as Marshall, from what I've seen, he's nothing more than a spot-starter or long reliever.

Gallagher-5th starter

Hart-AAA fodder

by Shawon12 on Feb 20, 2008 4:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Howry is the right choice

I agree with Sweet Lou's thinking on this. Barring trade or injury, it looks like the staff will shape up as follows in my opinion.

Starters...Zambrano, Lilly, Lieber, Hill, Dempster

Bullpen...Howry (closer), Marmol, Wood, Wuertz, Eyre, Cotts and maybe Hart

DL w/ phantom injury...Marquis

Triple A bound for the time being...Ascanio, Gallagher, Lahey, Marshall, Fox

by MDBNIU on Feb 19, 2008 1:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Lahey....

either makes the team or goes back

i think hell make the pen

by Rezze21 on Feb 19, 2008 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Lahey

Lahey is likely to be the player to be named later in the Craig Monroe trade. That's how the Cubs will wind up keeping him and therefore have the option of shipping him off to Triple A.

by MDBNIU on Feb 19, 2008 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

wary of howry

the fact that he has ONE pitch scares me thinking about him as the closer. he relies completely on location, im not too keen on this idea.

Bill James Felix Pie 2008 Projection: .283/.333/.456 16 HR 21 SB

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2008 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If that one pitch is good enough...

he'll be fine. Just ask Hoffman(changeup), Rivera(cut fastball), Gagne(sinker) or heck..even Marmol (slider).

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 20, 2008 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

How about you name one

whos only pitch is a fastball on the outside corner or up and in to set up the fastball on the outside corner?

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Feb 20, 2008 11:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Greg

Maddux

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 20, 2008 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Come on...

...Greg Maddux has probably never thrown a straight fastball in his life. Maddux lived with a cut fastball,. 2 seam fastball and a changeup. He froze people all the time because of the movement on his different types of fastballs. Bob Howry throws as straight as Kyle Farnsworth with better location.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Feb 20, 2008 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This is all probably moot...

as I don't see Howry getting too many save chances anyway. Yes Maddux's fastballs move, but he gets guys out by just locating them and moving them around. If Howry would just change speeds along with the in/out location of his one pitch he'd be much more effective.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 20, 2008 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Also,

I dont recall Maddux closing out a lot of games, unless he pitched the first 8 as well.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Feb 20, 2008 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ha but

those guys have other pitches to set up their very good pitch. howry does not. he walks to the mound and yells to the batter "IM THROWING THE HEAT!" and if the batter has good patience, he will rip the first slighly mis-placed heater onto waveland and howry will have a nice fat BS next to his name in the box score.

Bill James Felix Pie 2008 Projection: .283/.333/.456 16 HR 21 SB

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2008 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

6 inning game

The thing I like about the pen is it could very well become a 6 inning game.

If you aint beating the Cubs by the end of 6 you aint beating the Cubs.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Feb 19, 2008 5:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Lets hold off pronouncing greatness for this pen

Bullpen performance is notoriously hard to predict from year to year. We don't know if Kerry Wood can hold up or if Bob Howry is up to the task of being closer. And I'd like to see Carlos Marmol perform for another year before I reach full conclusion.

by MDBNIU on Feb 19, 2008 5:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

Remember the first half of last year? We were all wondering when the real Howry was going to show up. For that matter, the entire Cubs bullpen was MIA mostly early on.

That being said, I like the idea of Marmol and Wood coming in to stave off the opposition to preserve a lead or stop the bleeding in the 6th through 8th innings. I like Howry closing but feel that Marmol and MAYBE Wood to spot close to give Howry a break now and then or if Howry goes through a rough patch.

"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse

by BigJohnAZ on Feb 20, 2008 9:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Howry

Let Howry close. If we win 90 games he should end up with a fair amount of saves and in addition to some decent numbers might look very attractive in the trade market next year. Maybe we could bring in a real SS?

Then we always have Marmol to stick in there the following year.

Does this make sense to anybody else or have I been playing too much Playstation?

Soriano's Contract: Approximately one dollar for every pitch in the dirt that he swings at.

by Ryno8 on Feb 19, 2008 7:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Here is how...

I think it will shake down. Howry starts the season as closer. He will either do very well and keep that role all summer long or he will be replaced by Wood. I just think Marmol needs more experience before he closes.

As much as sweet Lou has said he doesn't want a closer by committee, he has one. Like it or not. I just feel there is going to be a closer change sometime this season. Who it is and when, is yet to be seen.

I have no rhyme or reason for thinking this. This is just my opinion. Wait and see. There will be at least one closer change before the Cubs make the playoffs in October.

by nmrudge on Feb 19, 2008 7:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Very possible.

And, if for some reason ALL of them fail, I would imagine Jim Hendry will be calling the Twins asking what they'd take for Joe Nathan sometime in July.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 19, 2008 8:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if they ALL fail...........

July will be too late for us!
Wood will not fail though.............

by plenz on Feb 19, 2008 8:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Marmol

I would keep Marmol away from the closer's role for now. He's far too valuable in the 7th and 8th innings. Let Wood and Howry compete for the closer's job. I'm comfortable with Howry there more than Wood, because of his experience, durability and ability to throw strikes.

"Have Keith Moreland drop a routine fly. Give everybody two bags of peanuts and a frosty malt, And I'll be ready to die." -Steve Goodman

by danimal15 on Feb 20, 2008 9:21 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Joe Nathan

Would be a REAL nice addition to this bullpen. I wonder if Kevin Hart, Sean Marshall and a top prospect not named Tyler Colvin would intrigue Minnesota, either now or mid-season???

by MDBNIU on Feb 20, 2008 9:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs