Work visas for suspended players

by nmrudge on Feb 4, 2008 6:27 PM CST Comment 36 comments

I don't know if anyone else saw this or not but I thought it was diary worthy. The AP put out an article today discussing the work visas for MLB players who have failed drugs tests due to PED's. I read the article on Yahoo! sports and here is the link if you want to read the entire thing. http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news.

Apparently any controlled substance triggers a review of these work visas. Donald Fehr the beloved players union president said he would "attempt to make sure all foreign players are treated the same as U.S. citizens."

My question is why?? Foreign players are NOT the same as U.S. citizens and should NOT be treated the same. There are rules and regulations in place that govern these types of visas. Why should foreign players be allowed to stay in the U.S. if they viotate these rules when anyone else would be made to leave?

I'd love to hear other opintions on this. Hence the diary.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Article link

Try this link. I guess I didn't copy enough the first time.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=An17w1OtoUyA7RYd2qZgLhwRvLYF?slug=ap-steroids-workvisas&pr ov=ap&type=lgns

by nmrudge on Feb 4, 2008 6:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

How

would "anyone else" be made to leave? Who is this "anyone else"? Has Andy Pettite been asked to leave the country?

The issue is that players who failed drug tests have not necessarily violated the law. (In fact, none of them have been convicted of a crime.) They've violated the rules of the sport.

The federal government needs to concern itself with violations of federal law and not violations of the rules of sport. (I'm talking to you, Arlen Spector.)

It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8lbs. 1 oz.

by Josh77 on Feb 4, 2008 6:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

OK,...

let me see if I can explain this better. I may have failed at this the first time.

The article is referencing only foreign MLB players who are in this country on a work visa. Nobody is talking about American players who have tested positive for PED's. So leave Pettite and any other American player out of the discusssion.

The "anyone else" I was refering to are other foreign people in our country using a work visa who DO NOT play MLB.

The FOREIGN players who are here on a work visa did break the law when they tested positive for PED's. Again, there are certain rules that these types of players must follow in order to keep their visas and live in the U.S.

The point of my post was to get opinions as to why Donald Fehr feels the need to make sure FOREIGN MLB players are treated the same as American players.

Did you even read the article?

by nmrudge on Feb 4, 2008 7:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

I read the short article. Kind of funny being asked if I've read something by someone who can't write. Perhaps you should learn to write clearly and concisely.

You simply do not understand the law. Players do NOT violate the law by testing positive for PEDs. There is absolutely no law against having these drugs in your body, in this country or any other. The law is against possessing them. (Mostly, but not entirely, for the purposes of selling them, but that's a different issue.) Many of those drugs are legal in their home countries. All of them are legal with a prescription. None of these players have been convicted in a court of law of violating US law. So for you to say they've broken the law without a trial strikes me as a little fascistic.

So you clearly want to say it's OK for good Americans like Andy Pettite to take PEDs and then play after their suspensions but those dirty foreigners ought to stay away.

Sorry, but I don't buy into your xenophobia, Mr. Dobbs.

It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8lbs. 1 oz.

by Josh77 on Feb 4, 2008 7:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

First of all, don't...

put words into my mouth. All I'm trying to do is start a discusion on a topic I thought was interesting. I'm not trying to start an argument here.

All I wanted to know is why certain people who are in the U.S. under a work visa are allowed to to take drugs and fail a drug test while those who don't play baseball would be asked to leave the country immediatly?

To me it is no different than a University professor who is here on a work visas failing a drug test. Why should he be deported and the baseball player not?

by nmrudge on Feb 4, 2008 8:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No.

To me it is no different than a University professor who is here on a work visas failing a drug test. Why should he be deported and the baseball player not?

Again, that you see these the same shows your ignorance of the law. Let's go with your case here, that a university professor fails a drug test. In doing so, they have violated their terms of employment, and are fired. They haven't broken any laws.

They are deported because the university then terminates their employment. If the university continues to employ them, their visa is still valid.

Such is the case with baseball players. Baseball continues to employ them after their failed test. Their visas are still valid.

by Wreckard on Feb 4, 2008 10:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes.

That is my whole point in this dicussion. Any person who violates the terms of there work visa should have it reviewed and if decided upon, be made to leave the country. It shouldn't matter if the work for a University or MLB.

by nmrudge on Feb 5, 2008 6:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Let me get this straight

Non-US citizen: leave the country, end your career.

US citizen: continue your career

Is that what you're saying?

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Feb 5, 2008 7:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You make a habit of seriously missing the point

Any person who violates the terms of there work visa should have it reviewed and if decided upon, be made to leave the country.

But they haven't violated the terms of their visa. They've violated the terms of employment with the university (in your hypothetical). That's a huge difference.

Once that's happened it's up to the employer whether or not they continue to employ this person. In the case of the university, if they decide to fire him, his visa is no longer valid and he's deported. However, if they instead decide to punish him and then continue to employ him after he's served said punishment, his visa is still valid.

Do you seriously not see the difference here?

by Wreckard on Feb 5, 2008 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You mean to tell me...

it is not a violation of their visa agrement to test positive for drugs? I find that very hard to believe. Fine, what ever the violation, they should have their visas reviewed.

by nmrudge on Feb 5, 2008 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I do see the difference...

I just think you are wrong. I think a failed drug test is a violation of their employment and their work visa. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree about that. Do you have any sort of proof that a failed drug test would allow a person under a work visa to stay in the country as long as their employer continues to employ them?

by nmrudge on Feb 5, 2008 4:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Try this

I think that we all agree that if I were an immigrant on a work visa who took an Advil and failed a drug test for Advil, I would not be deported. Advil is not illegal.

Now, if my employer told me not to take Advil and I took it anyway, that would be a violation of my employment agreement. Then my employer could decide whether to suspend me, fire me, etc. If they decided to let me keep my job, my visa would not be withdrawn because I haven't broken any laws and I remained employed.

That's what we have here. PED's are not illegal. They are a violation of the player's employment relationship. If the MLB decides to allow these players to keep their jobs, they get to stay. They didn't break the law. They remained employed. They haven't violated their visas.

Go Cubbies!

by NC Cubs Fan on Feb 5, 2008 5:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I should have carried my hypo one step futher

If the government decided to make Advil illegal AND I were then convicted, I'd have a problem with my visa...

Go Cubbies!

by NC Cubs Fan on Feb 5, 2008 5:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

However...

if Advil was only available with a prescription, and you acquired it without one, illegally, then you have broken the law and may be subject to investigation and prosecution.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 5, 2008 5:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This is hopeless

Like dancing on the head of a pin with you. Yes the US government CAN investigate people who fail employer drug test
but you seriously honest to God believe they would spend ONE second on this ? Also it has NOTHING to do with their LEGAL
status. Governments are forbidden from "selective prosecution" so if they targeted ONLY players who failed the drug tests who
were not US Citizens , it would not pass the smell test and before you tell me that is "not what you are saying" lets get real here. The governent does NOT care that Jose Macias took steroids anymore than it cares if Mike Cameron took greenies.
They can and have used players to get at dealers and they will try to make example of a player who lies under oath but they
have SO many more things to do it is beyond silly to think they would use resources for this.

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Feb 5, 2008 5:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess your right...

and it would be too expensive, anyway the government is really busy with the important stuff.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 5, 2008 6:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow.

by Wreckard on Feb 6, 2008 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nobody...

asked whether or not the US government should or should not investigate these people for crimes. All I wanted to know was, should they have their visas reviewed. The article said "any controlled substance" warrants such a review. Last I checked, steroids were illegal and concidered a controlled substance.

by nmrudge on Feb 5, 2008 6:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This is it I promise

The players failed a privately admistered test, in order to have
a problem with a legal visa you would have to committ a felony
UNLESS you really want to get into something like undesirable aliens (for instance for many years homosexuality and being a
member of the communist party were grounds for being refused
admission to the US). Unless and until those players are charged and convicted of a drug ( or any other crime) their visa should not be in jeopordy so long as they are working ( Hmm why didn't
we think of trying to get Neffi's visa revoked on the grounds that he was no longer working ?)

Much as I would like to respond the previous post., Al would
zap me for being political which it most definately was.

Now off to dinner.

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Feb 5, 2008 6:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Its funny Josh

....how one of your biggest arguments is ALWAYS grammer. Get over it buddy. Did I spell anything wrong Professor Josh?

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Feb 5, 2008 9:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

why Donald Fehr feels the need to make FOREIGN....

why Donald Fehr feels the need to make sure FOREIGN MLB players are treated the same as American players.

Because he represents all MLB players, not just American ones.

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Feb 5, 2008 4:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think...

nmrudge is referring to all the other people in the country that are here under a "work visa". If they commit a felony do you not think the government should re-evaluate their visa status or deport them?

As for the players failing the drug tests, regardless of the rules of any sport, they had to get the drugs legally or they were breaking the law. Couple that fact with all the traveling pro athletes do and you probably have multiple states laws involved, assuming you can prove they had the drugs during a road trip. If they're using them in the offseason in their own country then the Feds are SOL on doing anything. Maybe the work visa process should include drug testing...lol.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 4, 2008 7:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Your are ASSUMING they broke the law

An MLB suspension for drugs is NOT a criminal conviction which
I believe the law would require. If state or federal authorities want to prosecute players suspended by the MLB, they are free to try though I suspect most of us would think they would have better things to do. Some player are suspended for using
amphetamines and I don't think it is illegal to possess or use them even if it is a volation of MLB rules. Many of them buy them legally outside the US or through bad doctors in the US but
again I don't think mere possession of them is a felony. I don't know the rules on steroids.

I think Fehr's point was if you are going to go after Non-US players for a specific illegal activity , fairness would dictate you do the same with players who are US Citizens. I happen to agree with that view.

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Feb 4, 2008 7:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not assuming anything...

I only said that they if they had tested positive for a banned drug and they hadn't obtained the drug legally, then at that point they would have broken the law. Nobody is saying a suspension from any sport is a conviction. Please don't read what I'm not writing.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 4, 2008 11:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No they violated a CONTRACT not the law.

There is a world of difference between the level of proof
needed for a suspension in baseball and A CRIME. Baseball
players who fail MLB drug tests have committed NO crime.
Many people lose their jobs or may get suspended for everything from illegal drugs to smoking ( legal substances). None of this has anything to do with either the government or the criminal justice system. Yesterday's Michael Vick ruling has some relevence here. Vick committed a number of crimes, he violated the terms of his employment and he got fired. The Falcon's went to court to recover his bonus money claiming his criminal behavior was the cause of inability to play and they should get the money back. A judge ruled that Vick could keep the bulk of it under the terms of his contract and that Falcons could NOT use state law or his criminal activity to trump contract law.
What I am trying to explain is that MLB suspensions are part of a
CONTRACT and you can not use them to prove criminal activity
without a totally SEPERATE criminal investigation with outside
evidence provided in accordence with the law.

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Feb 5, 2008 8:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sigh...

But your missing my point completely. I'm not smart or patient enough to make you understand what I'm trying to say.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 5, 2008 10:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sigh not missing the point

It is contract law vs criminal law and you are confusing the point.
Unless somone is CONVICTED of a felony the government has no
legal right to deny them a visa ( unless they lose their work status per above).

Sorry you are not smart enough to explain your point but in fairness I lack the ability to post graphics

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Feb 5, 2008 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll try just

one more time.

If anyone (baseball player, mail carrier, lunchlady, cat wrangler, etc.), fails a drug test, then they have violated contract law. We agree, ok, that's good.

If that person didn't legally obtain the drug that caused them to fail the test or the drug in question is an illegal drug, and there is sufficent proof or reasonable evidence that they obtained it in this country, then they may have violated a federal/state law. I would surmise that in those specific cases, the authorities would then conduct an investigation and then decide whether to prosecute them or not. If they are found guilty and are here in the country under a work visa then my opinion is they should have their visa status brought under review or be deported to their home county (depending on the severity of the crime).

Can we agree that would be reasonable?

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 5, 2008 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No not reasonable

You can surmise what you like from a failed test administered by a private organization but the government would have to have A LOT of time on its hands to go after folks who fail that test for substances which at least can be legally prescribed. So what next ? Should they ask all private employers for lists of employees who failed tests for ILLEGAL drugs because that is a much more serious crime.
Also this takes us back the original problem , why would you
single out non-citizens? If taking these drugs was serious enough for the government to open a criminal investigation into
players who failed tests than surely ALL players should be investigated. For drugs which have a legal use , I don't even know if mere possession or use IS a felony but I seriously doubt it. I would be pretty shocked if the use of roids could be prosecuted as a felony ( which is what you need to change visa status).
So well yes you could theoretically have the government investigate any athlete who fails a drug test but since it is very, very, very unlikely to lead to a conviction this would be a staggeringly dumb idea.

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Feb 5, 2008 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Lemme see...

Also this takes us back the original problem , why would you
single out non-citizens?

I don't recall ever suggesting we should do that. I've gone back and read what I wrote, and I'm at a loss as to why you even got that idea. I'm talking about 2 seperate things...

Anyone failing a drug tests - (The law allows the employer to take punitive action against the employee, regardless of their citizenship.)
Employees who are here under a work visa and are punished/suspended/fired for a failed drug test - (They're only here as a condition of their employment, so when the condition of their employment comes under question, then so should their work visa.)

For drugs which have a legal use , I don't even know if mere possession or use IS a felony but I seriously doubt it.

Again, I'm not saying failing the test is a crime. I'm pointing out that how they obtained the drug is what should be questioned, again, regardless of their citizenship. I also don't expect our government to investigate/prosecute every case or failed test. Let's be reasonable. There will be certain circumstances where it will happen though, and when it does, it just so happens that foreign workers under work visas are at risk of suffering greater consequences than a US citizens if convicted.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 5, 2008 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You seriously make no sense

Why should the government EVER be involved if as you concede
this is an issue of EMPLOYMENT. IF the EMPLOYER wishes to terminate the employee based on a failed drug test, that would be a matter of CONTRACT law. If an employee on a work visa loses their work status they are subject to being deported REGARDLESS of how they lost their job. None of the above has
anything to do with the government wasting IT'S resources by doing anything against athletes or anyone who has failed a private test.

All of your arguements have NOTHING to do with the fact that
people get deported IF convicted of a felony if they are not US
Citizens. So I am happy to agree on that but it is totally irrelevent to athletes and private drug tests.

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Feb 5, 2008 2:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Let's just agree to disagree...

Let's call the whole thing off.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 5, 2008 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Huge difference

Breaching a contract is not the same as breaking a law. Once someone has breached a contract, a private party (the party hurt by the breach) has to bring a lawsuit and the law is then used to get damages/remedies or to enforce the terms of the contract.

by Arbusto on Feb 5, 2008 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Why is Fehr discussing work visas?

Most (not all) foreign-born players have obtained green cards by the time they have been in the majors for a few years. This helps their organizations, since the INS has a per organization limit on work visas. (It used to be 18 per organization, I'm not sure if that is still the number.) I don't think the INS can take away a green card unless there is a felony conviction or the person moves his/her permanent residence away from the US for a certain period of time (2 years?). Therefore, someone like Tejada (who likely has a green card) would not be subject to "losing his work visa", even if Selig suspends him.

"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007

by DeRoMyHero on Feb 5, 2008 1:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I have never heard that.

Every year, you hear about some player or another who is delayed reporting to spring training because his "work visa" is delayed, and that appears to apply to veteran players as well as kids.

Do you have any cites to back up your claim?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 5, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The two I know for sure

are Andres Galarraga and Larry Walker, but I've heard about a lot of others who buy homes in Florida specifically for the purpose of trying to establish residency (i.e., Johan Santana). I'm not saying that everyone does it, but many do. That is also how Ozzie Guillen gained his 5+ years of residency to qualify for citizenship. (You could probably add Manny Ramirez to that list.)

"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007

by DeRoMyHero on Feb 5, 2008 6:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs