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Around SBN: Jerry Sandusky's Wife Tries To Run A Reporter Over

PECOTA And The Cubs

So Rick Morrisey writes this.  The Sox lead-in caused me to miss the Cubs commentary at the end.

Somehow Nate Silver, of Baseball Prospectus fame, writes this response to Morrisey at the former's Unfiltered weblog. I found this because I'm also a Royals fan, and few guys over there at stat hounds.

But what catches my eye is the cheap shot at the end by Silver.  What gives?!  

Still, it's very interesting to note that PECOTA has overestimated the Cubs over the 2003-07 period.  Is it true that our guys haven't had the needed heart and grit?  Has Cubs management been a bit over-addicted to stats, perhaps PECOTA?

Thoughts? - TL

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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wow
Man I hope there right except for the not winning the World series part

by chipper421 on Mar 12, 2008 6:37 AM CDT reply actions  

Nate Silver
is my hero. That was hilarious. Morissey deserved to swatted after he trotted out that anti-intellectual drivel the other day.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Mar 12, 2008 7:23 AM CDT reply actions  

Sigh...
 Mr. Silver should probably try and remember that any press is good press, especially for MSM readers, who generally have no idea who Baseball Prospectus is.

 And while I think Rick should have gotten out the game long ago, Nate's attempt to try and measure intangible quantitatively just lends a little extra credibility to what was a very silly Morrisey story.

by Damen Jackson on Mar 12, 2008 8:57 AM CDT reply actions  

Loud, sustained applause.
n/t
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 12, 2008 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Um, I don't think Silver was serious
What part of the chart with the little hearts on it didn't make you realize his entire article was satire?

by Wreckard on Mar 12, 2008 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

seconded
It was a tongue-in-cheek post. The only serious part was doing an analysis of the system, which is a GREAT thing to see. It makes it much more accountable. Let's see this for hand-made predictions, as well.

by dizzle on Mar 12, 2008 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's actually not a cheap shot at the end...
It's actually a reference to the song "The More You Ignore Me, The Closer I Get" by Morrissey.

by mportsch on Mar 12, 2008 9:28 AM CDT reply actions  

I agree that Silver...
should have just ignored Morrissey's column, as most fans would realize it's pretty useless. That being said, I get the feeling that Silver's "analysis" was completely tongue-in-cheek. I seriously doubt he was actually trying to measure "Heart".

by mportsch on Mar 12, 2008 9:31 AM CDT reply actions  

Even
Your most seasoned sabermetrician realizes that statistics and projections can only tell part of the story. However the bulk of these beat writers and columnists that aggrandize "heart+grit" and "judge by their guts" constantly refuse to hear believe. They also will almost always--without fail--cherry pick marginal team dependent stats such as wins or RBIs to evaluate a player's worth.

by morgane on Mar 12, 2008 11:00 AM CDT reply actions  

But that answer is no
The Cubs between 03-07 did not lack "heartgrit" they lacked healthy starting pitchers, they lacked an all-star first basemen, a rotational cast of fringe to mediocre outfielders and a manager that preferred replacement level veterans over young talent. They still played with all the heart in the world.

by morgane on Mar 12, 2008 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

that is to read
what little young talented existed in the system during that period.

by morgane on Mar 12, 2008 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

ummm, everything's right until the last comment
a manager that preferred replacement level veterans over young talent

There has been no young talent that was not played for some replacement level vet.  That's just hogwash.  Unless Dubois, Murton, and Patterson are your examples as young, but certainly not talented.

The rest is spot-on.

by socalbob on Mar 12, 2008 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

I made an addendum
You're also right, but Tony Womack, Nefi Perez and Cesar Izturis have no business being on a starting roster (whoops, no one told John Mozeliak?). That was just one season.
You can argue that under Baker, the home-grown talent that was instrumental in '07 was developed. We all know that the head coach of the major league team typically has little to do with player development in the minors. Also I think the emphasis should be placed on how that talent was utilized. How many times did Marmol pitch in relief before last season?

by morgane on Mar 12, 2008 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why do I feel like I've read this article before..
Oh, because I have!  Because Dave van Dyck, also of the Chicago Tribune, wrote the exact same article last season!
After winning a World Series and more games the last two seasons than any team in baseball except the New York Yankees, the White Sox should have earned a little respect.Right?

Well, maybe from real baseball people, but not in the surreal world of computers.

Baseball Prospectus, considered the new-age statistical bible, projects the White Sox to finish with a 72-90 record this season.

"Well, we're screwed now," team captain Paul Konerko said with a sarcastic laugh. "I guess we'll just have to battle through."

I wonder if we'll get this exact same article every year now, rehashed slightly each time.

The full article isn't up anymore, but you can still read Fire Joe Morgan's excellent flaying of the article here.

by Wreckard on Mar 12, 2008 11:17 AM CDT reply actions  

funny
didn't the Sox finish with a 72-90 record last year as projected?

by socalbob on Mar 12, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, they did
but in spite of being accurate to a win, the projections were off because PECOTA thought the Sox would be bad based on age and natural decline, when in fact they all just had "off-years". Like, all of them.

by morgane on Mar 12, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

And to answer your question...
...no. Cubs managment is NOT addicted to stats. Not at all.

by cwyers on Mar 12, 2008 11:42 AM CDT reply actions  

Morrissey's article
is the biggest pile of dung I've ever read.  I wanted to just ignore it.

But the biggest pile of crap was the way he acknowledges that PECOTA was the only one to see the White Sox bad season last year, but then dismisses it because PECOTA thought it was because the White Sox got old, whereas the real reason the White Sox had a bad year was . . .wait for it . . .They had a bad year!  Way to stand up for tautology, Rick!

But the White Sox won't have another bad year because they're too proud.  He's looked into Paul Konerko's soul and knows he's embarrassed and won't let it happen again.  As opposed to that lame-ass slacker Travis Hafner, who had a bad year for the Indians but won't bounce back because he doesn't care, I guess.

If Morrissey had handed that article in as a paper in one of my classes, well, I guess it would have gotten a B- because it was spelled correctly and the use of proper grammar.  But it would have gotten an F if I would just grade on his logic alone.  He'd get a paper back covered in red ink.

It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8lbs. 1 oz.

by Josh Timmers on Mar 12, 2008 6:22 PM CDT reply actions  

Um
Can't see how Silver's responding was a bad thing since it spawned all this conversation and encouraged more people to go read what he had to say.

Sure, the computer analysis can't take in everything and we'll always root for the guy who goes above and beyond what analysts (of any stripe) say he can do.  (I mean, isn't that Simon's role on American Idol, to get fans to cheer even more for the contestants he says are no good?) (I'm thinking of the movie Gattaca here, too, for those whose wives/gfs aren't AI watchers.)

But even then, the statistical models tell us something about which teams are going beyond what would likely have been expected.  We may not know why.  Or we may argue why, if it's because Dusty mismanaged the team or too many injuries struck or the curse of the goat, or what.

Paying attention to the statistics does not have to run contrary to looking for heart or grit in baseball.

Soriano must leadoff... to provide adequate protection for Big Z!

by DGU on Mar 12, 2008 9:28 PM CDT reply actions  

It was funny to me...
...I didn't read a cheapshot anywhere in that article.

Also, I am not sure what is meant at the end of your post about the Cubs beeing too addicted to stats?

The Cubs were unlucky to some degree just as the Whitesox were super lucky...But I thought the comments about the organizations at the top of the list v. the bottom was a reasonable position.

The Cubs only philosophy that I can discern under Hendry has been 1) Cover your butt, 2) stockpile pitching because you are going to need mass quantities to overcome zero development and ignorance about abuse of arms, 3) Let a million flowers grow, i.e., just draft lots of athletes with little or no demonstration of baseball skills and hope that one of them eventually blooms, and 4) Stick with Old school managers and let them cast the vision for the roster v. having them implement what you think is important for winning (changing a bit after the baseclogger left town)...

The final point, which is a good one is try and spend to fill the holes.  

by DudeVf11 on Mar 12, 2008 10:26 PM CDT reply actions  

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