Early Saturday Notes

by Al on Mar 21, 2008 10:33 PM CDT Comment 84 comments

SCOTTSDALE, Arizona -- Thought I'd let you chew on these before getting the game thread going Saturday morning:

Where's Kosuke Fukudome going to bat? Second? Or maybe even leadoff? In any case, Alfonso Soriano is NOT going back to leadoff and may wind up hitting third.
Mark DeRosa speaks out on The Trade That Shall Not Be Named:
"It's funny for me," DeRosa said Friday at Hi Corbett Field. "I feel like I've done enough … where I shouldn't be put in this position. Hopefully Jim and [manager Lou Piniella] realize I'm one of the best hitters they have and my bat should be in the lineup."
Amen. Incidentally, that article also notes that DeRosa hasn't played outfield or 3B at all this spring, the two positions he'd supposedly be backing up (in addition to 2B) if TTTSNBN happens. And Lou Piniella says:
"We are planning to go with what we have," he said.
Amen again. That ought to give you enough to talk about overnight.

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Comments

I know I'm in the minority on this

but I don't mind Theriot leading off. I have a feeling Soriano will be back up there though. You can't discount a players comfort level in a particular part of the order. Remember when every new manager the Cubs hired try to make Sandberg a three hitter. He was never comfortable there, and was always moved back to second.

"My bed is pulling me, gravity, daysleeper. Daaaysleeper."

by markleonette on Mar 21, 2008 10:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I know this is a little unorthodox

But why not try DeRosa at leadoff? He doesn't offer the speed of a traditional lead-off hitter, but for the last two years of 500+ AB's he has had an OBP of .371 (2007) and .357 (2006). A typical leadoff hitter has an OBP in the .365ish range. Compare this to Theriot who had an OBP of .326 and I think DeRosa shows to be a better option as a leadoff hitter.

In addition, Brian Roberts (who by all accounts would be our leadoff hitter if a trade ever gets done) OBP from the last 2 seasons- .377 (2007) and .347 (2006). These numbers are fairly similar to DeRosa's and we would be getting fairly equal production without giving up our best prospects.

Aramis Ramirez- NL MVP
Kosuke Fukudome- NL ROY
Carlos Marmol- Rolaids Relief Man

by sheamcmurray on Mar 21, 2008 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting.

DeRosa's combined OBA for the last two years (the only two he's been a regular) is .359. That wouldn't be too bad.

You're right about the speed being (mostly) irrelevant. Getting on base is the key. If DeRosa's .359 OBA were leading off, and Fukudome's potential .400+ was second... you'd have a lot of runners on for Lee, Ramirez, Soriano (in whatever combination).

Chances of Lou trying this? Probably zero.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 21, 2008 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

unfortunently, you're probably correct

Lou said in his interview today on ESPN2 that the leadoff position needs to have speed, thus disqualifying DeRosa from that possibility.

Aramis Ramirez- NL MVP
Kosuke Fukudome- NL ROY
Carlos Marmol- Rolaids Relief Man

by sheamcmurray on Mar 21, 2008 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I feel

speed is pretty relevant; for reasons not shown in the stat book. Because we all know how a leadoff man with speed can make a pitcher work when he is on first, or second for that matter. With the quality of hitters behind a fast lead off man like Rrian Bobserts on this club, one mistake because he's worrying about his speed could but some nice early runs on the board. Also, I think lost in the discussion about possible leadoff candidates is where players have hit in previous years. I don't think there is any way to say definitively that Mark's production leading off would be comprable to the Oriole's second basemen for reasons that hitting lead off takes a certain train of thought that I think would be foreign to DeRosa. Sure, he may be able to do it, and the display of his 2 year averages on stats is quite intriguing. However, I wouldn't mind the 2 year average of 44 SBs.

That rug really tied the room together.

by TCobb1911 on Mar 22, 2008 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

SB also

lets you turn a single into a double quite often if you have a good caught stealing rate. That is something that doesn't show up on a hitters SLG, but alot of the time a hitter is standing on second base with one swing. Alot of stat heads think SB is meaningless and the reason for that IMO is because it's a unpredictable stat. So anything their systems can't example they say is meaningless. Thats one of the reasons why I will always probably be somewere in the middle of old school and new school of thinking when it comes to stats. Most importantly though the hitters needs to get for a decent average(270 plus) with a good OBP, with being speed a bonus. But I don't think you can just hit for a decent average but with a low OBP(think Juan Pierre)and be a good leadoff hitter. I also don't think you can hit for a poor average(below 250) with a high OBP and be a good leadoff hitter(think Rickie Weeks). On paper having a high OBP might only matter but if you hitting 240 but have 370 OBP, that probably means your walking a ton against bad pitchers, but struggle against good pitchers. So over the course of the season your OBP might look good, but in games against good pitchers that your team needs to win your not gonna get good production from your leadoff hitter. A good example of that is Rickie Weeks he only hit 178/327 against us last year. I'm sure him getting on base more in front of Hardy,Braun,Fielder and Hart could have helped them win more then one series against us last year.

As for Theriot leading off, I'm not a huge fan of it, but am ok with it if he improves to be 280s/340s type hitter this season, and we have a high OBP in Fukudome or DeRosa batting behind him. I think it's important to have at least one strong OBP guy in front of the order, especially if were gonna have a so-so OBP(340's) leading off. But I do think we would benefit from Theriots speed in the leadoff spot. But in a perfect world Roberts is our leadoff hitter and Theriot is hitting 7th or 8th. But it's up to the Orioles I guess and if they wanna come to their sense and lower they demands for Roberts.

by cubsfan25 on Mar 22, 2008 1:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

SB

First things first - whatever we say about the value of speed in the leadoff spot, Lou has used the assumed value of speed in that spot as THE reason he moved Sori out of it - to protect his legs. So, if Lou put DeRosa or Soto in that spot now, he'd look like he was full of it. I don't think all you guys who opposed Roberts so fiercely realized how possible Felipe Lopez leading off has been if the Roberts trade doesn't get done.

As for cubsfan25's arguments about SBs - I think the "stat heads" I read don't like SBs more for these reasons:
1) SBs have value, but only if they are successful at a high enough rate to counter-balance the CSs that go with them.
1) SBs have value, but not nearly as much value as just getting on base, especially from the leadoff spot where your best sluggers are coming up.

I have also read an article which argued that ran numbers on situations where a base-stealer was on first and found that it had more of a negative effect on the hitter's stats than on the pitcher's. I don't remember where I read this, though, and I may even be misremembering. Maybe someone else here could give a citation or a correction.

But like I said, Lou has put his eggs in the speedy leadoff basket, so there's not much point to going against the idea.

by DGU on Mar 22, 2008 7:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And how about......

Doing a Tony and batting Pie 9th...... Cub pitchers hit well enough. When the lineup turns over it could be interesting from the 5th or 6th inning on...

by James031 on Mar 21, 2008 11:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

That'd be fun

But i think it's like sliding head first into 1st. You think it's faster but it's not. I can't remember Hill's hitting stats but if for some crazy reason Marquis is in his spot you might have a semi-valid argument about Cub pitchers hitting better 8th.

I'm drunk......and it shows.....

by Keystone80435 on Mar 21, 2008 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um.

God bless DeRosa, but:

"Hopefully Jim and [manager Lou Piniella] realize I'm one of the best hitters they have and my bat should be in the lineup."

DeRosa is a fine, league-averageish second baseman. So don't take this wrong when I say: the gorram CATCHER is going to outhit you, Mark. You're probably the sixth-best hitter in the lineup at any given time, seventh if Fuku is in center and Murton or Ward is in right. How did you come to THAT conclusion?!?

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Mar 21, 2008 11:52 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs

I agree with you

however I like his attitude. Maybe its a little posturing. I think a guy in his position should feel that way.

That rug really tied the room together.

by TCobb1911 on Mar 22, 2008 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

DeRosa, Marquis, and the trades that linger

I'm not sure how DeRosa's ongoing comments win him further praise, while Marquis' one-time outburts earns him ongoing criticism. I like DeRosa and like what he brings to the team, but at this point, I wonder if the Cubs shouldn't unload him. Send him to the Dodgers to play 3B, get the prospect from LA we need to finish the Roberts trade, and instead of taking on Payton's salary, take Mora's and make Mora the super-utility player as well as Pie's CF backup.

by DGU on Mar 22, 2008 7:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The double standard is amusing...

DeRosa has an okay year, there are rumors about the Cubs getting a player who is better than him, he complains and many Cubs fans cheer for him. Marquis has a mediocre year, the Cubs threaten to replace him with a guy who is likely to be WORSE than him, he complains and he's a pariah. One is considered a competitive "gamer" and the other is considered a whiner.

by SouthernCub on Mar 22, 2008 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well maybe it won't be Theriot or Brian Roberts after all

two rival baseball executives confirmed Friday that the Nationals are actively shopping López, and the Chicago Cubs are among the teams that have had a scout following the Nationals in recent days

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/21/AR2008032102755.html?sub=AR

Felipe freaking Lopez and his .245 .308 .352 line last year aren't worth a sack of batting practice balls

Aramis Ramirez- NL MVP
Kosuke Fukudome- NL ROY
Carlos Marmol- Rolaids Relief Man

by sheamcmurray on Mar 22, 2008 12:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Loud, sustained applause.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 22, 2008 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

Theriot was a rookie last year. NEVER has he played in so many games. It takes time to acclimate to the schedule in the Bigs. Theriot is a fundamentally sound ballplayer, he knows how to play the game. He will adjust to the schedule.

by crazymountain on Mar 22, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did you know?

Ryan Theriot and Felipe Lopez are the same age! True story! Ryan Stewart Theriot hustled his way out of the birth canal December 7, 1979. Felipe Lopez was born May 12, 1980.

I've never understood how people have so much faith in Theriot improving after his rookie year, but were never willing to give Cedeno a second chance. Cedeno is actually young.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Mar 22, 2008 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

cwyers...is Cedano your opening day SS?

Let me get back to you, will ya, Charlie? I got a guy on the other line asking about some white walls.

by JB 23 on Mar 22, 2008 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think he's probably the best of our bad options.

Which I don't want anyone to read as a ringing endorsement.

At this point, though, I'm really just trying to deal with my continual frustration with Cubs fans who seem to love Theriot far more than his talent and performance should indicate, and a Cubs organization that sees no reason to procure even a fallback option to him.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Mar 22, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The problem with Cedeno...

... is despite his obvious talent, he doesn't seem to have baseball smarts. That alone could cost the Cubs games (as it may have last April when he overran second base on the walk).

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 22, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you...

...and it would be perfect if Roberts (if they get him) could play SS, but I don't think that will be an option.

You can live with Theriot at the bottom of the order, as long as you are real strong in other areas. The best scenerio is for Theriot to be your super-sub IF and have DeRosa in the lineup with the possible addition of Roberts, but I just don't think it is going to work out that way.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 22, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

When Cedeno can

out hit Theriot then he could be considered for the starting job. You don't play Cedeno over Theriot, when he's not as good because he has more talent or upside. In the Major leagues you play the best player, and there's no doubt so far Theriot is better then Cedeno in the Major leagues. Cedeno since June of 06 has been about a 219 hitter in over 400 AB's, so Cedeno has gotten worse as a ML hitter and not improved at all. I know many don't like Theriot, but he was a 280s/340s hitter four of six months last year. So there's a decent chance he could possibly hold that up for a full season, after having experience of a fullseason last year. If Cedeno can outplay Theriot and take the job from him, I'd be all for that. But only a person biased against Theriot would hand Cedeno the job over Theriot with the way Cedeno has struggled in the majors over the last couple of seasons.

by cubsfan25 on Mar 22, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right

But perhaps a job sharing situation where they fight for playing time in the regular season might not be so bad for both of them.

by DGU on Mar 22, 2008 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cedeno

is talented and young. He is just missing baseball insight and knowledge. I hate to use Dumb because he deserves more credit than that. He is just unable to upgrade his baseball IQ.

by crazymountain on Mar 22, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree

Cedeno would need to hit over .300, have 12-15 HRS, knock in 60 and score over 80 runs to move Theriot out of shortstop, IMO. The guy seems to have the knack of making bad baseball plays. Yesterday, caught stealing and gets picked off. Enough.

"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"

by Grockcubs on Mar 22, 2008 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree also

I have been a big proponent of Roberts. He is a difference maker. His style of baseball works well all season (cold, warm, 15 freakin inches of snow nine days before opeing day). But, despite this, DeRosa is huge part of this team. His is reliable. He hit all season, not just in the beginning, the end, or in between. I just wish he were faster, or could play a mean SS. Which brings me to the question of why we werent searching for that all season? Was it Lou's love of Theriot? No one on the market?

by louslovechild on Mar 22, 2008 12:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The Player In The Trade That Shall Not Be Named

is a Gamecock. I am not allowed to root for this guy. I went to Clemson. BUUUT if he becomes a Cub that over-rides the college grudge. As long as he's in BLT he's just a Gamecock to me.

I'm drunk......and it shows.....

by Keystone80435 on Mar 22, 2008 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that being said

I'd love to see Khalil Greene in Cubbie gear.

I'm drunk......and it shows.....

by Keystone80435 on Mar 22, 2008 12:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

sorry about your tigers

Green would be an upgrade, but doesnt that remove a lead-off man? He has a great glove and a great arm, but his offensive skills are questionable.

by louslovechild on Mar 22, 2008 12:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

His AVG is questionable.

But it's hard to say the "offensive skills" of a guy who produced 27 HR and 97 RBI, despite a .291 OBA, are "questionable."

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Mar 22, 2008 1:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh duh

here are the stats i was lookign for, right under my nose.

I'm drunk......and it shows.....

by Keystone80435 on Mar 22, 2008 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

darn tigers. i never expect much hha

I think he strikes out quite a bit but he had around 30 hrs, 100 rbis and 100 runs scored....i think. I'm assuming the Cubs just arent looking to go all out for a shortstop. So KG would be a nice addition becuase he might be more in the range of talent they are loooking for. An upgrade, thats all. It'll never happen though.

I'm drunk......and it shows.....

by Keystone80435 on Mar 22, 2008 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

All for it

N/T

"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"

by Grockcubs on Mar 22, 2008 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's a difference maker?

Brian Roberts has been the Orioles regular 2B for the last four years.

In those four years, the Orioles have lost 84, 88, 91 and 92 games.

They seem to be getting worse each year he's there.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 22, 2008 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

According to that logic,

we wouldn't have wanted DeRosa last year or Soriano or Aramis in 2003.

by DGU on Mar 22, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right.

Obviously, I'm being a little facetious. There are plenty of players on bad teams that are good. But to call him a "difference maker" is, I think, a little over the top.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 22, 2008 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

but an OBP over .375 is a rare, rare thing, and that OBP was in the AL East with all its challenges. Maybe we can call him a "difference-helper."

by DGU on Mar 22, 2008 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Last year...

... DeRosa's OBA: .371
Roberts' OBA: .377

Aren't we splitting hairs here?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 22, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

We're splitting hairs

if Roberts was playing in the NL Central. Just as we adjust Fukudome's Japan League OBP down for the States, we adjust Roberts' AL East OBP up if he comes to the NL Central.

by DGU on Mar 22, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I suppose.

Is there an example of a hitter who has made that transition in recent years? (We do know of two pitchers, Bronson Arroyo and Ted Lilly, who have done so and improved.)

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 22, 2008 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure.

The rough, back-of-the-envelope adjustment is about .060 points of OPS. That's not entirely a league quality effect; the NL tends to have more hitter-friendly parks than the AL.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Mar 22, 2008 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Come on AL

The O's haven't had a decent team since 1996, they have had more bad moves by the front office then the New York Knicks. Roberts is not the reason they are horrible, Angelos and his boys are the blame.
I am not going to say Roberts is a difference maker, however he would more than help the Cubs, and would be an improvement over DeRosa. I know it is only spring, but the Cubs offense is stuck in reverse. Roberts would be an ideal leadoff man.
Now we can argue who to send to the O's for Roberts, that is another story. But I am sort of changing my tune on the trade, I would like him here. I hope it gets done soon.

"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"

by Grockcubs on Mar 22, 2008 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hendry dropped the ball........

when there was a small window availabe to bring in Kahlil Greene. He is much better than Theriot defensively, and he has alot more pop offensively. If he got away from Petco and played at Wrigley, his offense would improve.

by montecarlo on Mar 22, 2008 12:58 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Hendry tried to get him

last June in the Barrett deal. The Padres said the Cubs would have to include Pie and others if they wanted Greene(was hitting in the 220s at the time). So of course Hendry said no, so he didn't drop the ball the only way he was gonna be able to get him ever is overpay for him.

by cubsfan25 on Mar 22, 2008 1:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dropped what imaginary ball?

Why do some people think that every team exists just to give the Cubs the players they need. Greene was never on the market. San Diego was always looking to resign him. They think they are a contender and would not easily trade away their starting shortstop.

OK, what would it have taken? Let's see, San Diego needs a catching upgrade. Soto for Greene? Now you might be the ballpark. Someone like Murton would never get it done.

by rlpete on Mar 22, 2008 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Loud, sustained applause.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 22, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How long do we wait for Pie?

I just ask the question.......how long do we wait for Pie? I was just in AZ and yes he can motor around the bases and in the outfield, but can he really produce the numbers we need from a CF? I my "humble" estimation, no, but maybe others feel differently?

by TXCubsFan on Mar 22, 2008 2:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I think Lou already gave up on Pie .

Based on his recent comments.

by Fraggin Judge on Mar 22, 2008 7:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Where do you see this?

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 22, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Perhaps after about 300 ABs

Jacque Jones is gone, and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!

by initram on Mar 22, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pie

Let him play mostly against RH pitching until at least mid to late June(I think he will do fine against righties). If he's not hitting at least 240-250 plus, then we can consider trading for someone at the deadline(if someone is out there at the right price) But. we need to give this guy a chance for a little while. Since were a contending team though we need to cover ourselves against LH pitching. So if it's us shifting Fukudome to CF and Murton in RF against good LH pitchers or trading for a true back up in CF who hits LH pitching well, we need to do that.

Pie hitting 111 against LH pitchers in the majors last year and 190 against LH pitchers in Triple A is pretty alarming right now. If we were a team like the Marlins or Pirates I would say just let the guy play. But since were a team that plans on winning it all this year, we can't have Pie bat in the line-up against LH pitching if he's hitting 200 or below. Pie did hit over 400 against RH pitching in Triple A, and even 241 against RH pitching in the majors last year. So I think he will be at least a 260-270 hitter against RH pitching this year. We can give him some starts against LH pitching, but if he doesn't do well we need to play Murton or the RH hitter back up CF we trade for against LH pitchers.

by cubsfan25 on Mar 22, 2008 2:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

he needs more AB's period. With the lineup the Cubs have

...we can easliy take that chance. I am not sure how he gets better sitting on the bench.

Let me get back to you, will ya, Charlie? I got a guy on the other line asking about some white walls.

by JB 23 on Mar 22, 2008 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're right...

Pie won't get better sitting on the bench but, at the same time, I just don't see how we can afford to let him work through his growing pains this year.
it would be different if the Cubs were a young team in a rebuilding phase but this is a veteran team that's supposed to win right now.
I read a veteran scout say that the best thing for Pie and the Cubs would be for them to trade him to a team that'll let him get enough at bats to learn how to use his skills, etc.

by bluekoolaide on Mar 22, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pie needs

the same amount of time that we gave Corey Patterson. He has to get ML AB's before any judgement is made. Last year and this ST is WAY too small a sample.

by crazymountain on Mar 22, 2008 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think we need to give Pie a full season.

We need his speed and defensive ability in center to help out Soriano so that Sori can protect his legs. Pie will be able to shade towards left since Kosuke has plenty of speed to cover a little extra ground in right. I think our lineup could make up for any offensive deficiencies that Pie may experience over the course of the season.

by gwood on Mar 22, 2008 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks, Lou.

(1) For realizing Soriano is not a leadoff hitter.
(2) For realizing Pie is not a MLB hitter.

by Fraggin Judge on Mar 22, 2008 8:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

meh

it's starting to seem like a harry potter board now..

Live is boring until March 31st strolls by..

by Chanman25 on Mar 22, 2008 8:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Hmmmm....

The Orioles of yore had an all field-no hit CF named Paul Blair and did quite well. CF is really a defensive position.

I think DeRo was our MVP last year......

by crazymountain on Mar 22, 2008 8:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

DeRosa was NOT our MVP...

nor was he close to being our MVP. He was very useful as a utility guy when various people went down. But in reality he was merely a decent 2B, average 3B, or below average RF. That is not our MVP. Our MVP was either Ramirez, Lee, or Soriano.

by SouthernCub on Mar 22, 2008 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Without DeRo

We would have never made it with the injuries we had.

by crazymountain on Mar 22, 2008 9:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

That's true

but it is also true that without Sean Marshall we wouldn't have made it, and Marshall will not be a SP this year (to start the year) and is only hoping to be in the 'pen.

DeRosa is very useful and most useful as a backup for the injuries we will have again this year. If he doesn't want that job, there are teams looking for 3B and I know we can get Melvin Mora to do the same job DeRosa would do; we just have to be willing to take Mora's salary.

by DGU on Mar 22, 2008 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Where is the link...?.,..

Someone posted yesterday I believe, It had all the cubs listed with their salaries and contract status'. ??

Can't find it. Thanks in advance.

by bakester on Mar 22, 2008 9:11 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Cot's Baseball Contracts?

Here: http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/

Jacque Jones is gone, and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!

by initram on Mar 22, 2008 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So DeRosa complains

and he gets an "Amen". Marquis complains and he gets called all kinds of vile nonsense.

Interesting.

by Maddog on Mar 22, 2008 9:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Define "complains".

I saw those comments in a completely different light. Further, I'd say DeRosa has more of a right to "complain" based on his performance last year, than Marquis does.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 22, 2008 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Earnings

DeRosa's 2007 OPS+ 102
Marquis' 2007 ERA+ 101

Marquis' troubled second half v. DeRosa's strong second half have a lot of us forgetting how much help Marquis gave us to get to the playoffs last year. Not that that earns Marquis a right to beat out better pitchers for a rotation spot this year - but soaking up innings is awfully underrated sometimes.

by DGU on Mar 22, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not an issue of definition, al.

DeRosa has brought this up again and again and again this offseason. Does he have a right to be upset? Absolutely. Should he keep his fat mouth shut? Absolutely. I really liked Derosa last season, but the guy is becoming more and more like Todd Walker.

As for Marquis, he said the same damn thing DeRosa did except he only said it one time as opposed to bringing it up over and over like DeRosa has.

Marquis has as much reason to be upset as DeRosa has. He was signed by the Cubs to a 3-year deal to be a starting pitcher for the Chicago Cubs. The Cubs apparently didn't even have the decency to tell Marquis that he will be competing for a spot in the rotation and played this game through the media. Marquis was upset, said some things, and moved on.

There's no such thing as one person has more of a right to complain than another. I find it interesting that the very people who continue to talk about "these guys are humans" as an example of why stats aren't as important as they really are suddenly ignore the fact they're humans when it suits them. Both DeRosa and Marquis were signed to do a specific job with the Cubs. Each of them has a right to complain if the Cubs suddenly decide they want them to do something else. I don't care about money either. These people are human beings and they signed with the team to do what the team told them they'd do (play 2nd base in the case of Derosa and be in the rotation in the case of Marquis). If the Cubs suddenly change their mind after both posted decent seasons in 2007 they can complain.

They shouldn't just because it makes them look ridiculous, but it is their right. And you can't take that away or minimize that either, Al. They were each signed to do a job and that's changed now. You'd be pissed off if your employer decided to give you a different, less important job, and you'd be even more upset if they did so by communicating with the media rather than talking to you about it.

The difference between these complaints from both players is this: Acquiring Brian Roberts actually improves the Cubs while replacing Marquis in the rotation with Dempster makes the team worse. Furthermore, Marquis complained once while DeRosa has been whining and bitching about this since December talking to the media every chance he gets.

Both of them should just keep their mouths shut, but if we're talking about who is more pathetic the answer is obviously Mark DeRosa.

by Maddog on Mar 22, 2008 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think I agree with your conclusion at all

I think that attitude is very important, and DeRosa demonstrably has a better one than Marquis.

I do think that a lot of the difference in how we regard each one is that Cubs fans (generalization) LIKE DeRosa, and DON'T LIKE Marquis. Unfair? Maybe. But it seems to be the truth.

But as I said, I don't agree with your conclusion -- I don't think that Roberts will be THAT MUCH better than DeRosa, and I think that Dempster has shown that he's equal to the task as Marquis -- with a MUCH BETTER ATTITUDE than Marquis.

All of this is subjective, of course. But I don't think you can look at Marquis vs. Dempster this ST and suggest that Marquis is the hands down winner. If anything, they're tied, performance wise, and Demp wins on the soft skills.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hold on a moment.

It's one thing to like DeRosa, but it's an entirely different thing to think he's actually as good as Brian Roberts, which is so far from the truth I don't even know where to begin. Is he enough of an upgrade to warrant trading so many players? I don't think so, but let's not be delusional here and pretend that DeRosa is Brian Roberts' equal.

As for Marquis/Dempster...what has Dempster shown? Did the season begin already? Or are we talking about spring training in which Marquis has been better than Dempster, but somehow you think that means Dempster is as good or better? Marquis isn't very good, but Dempster is a terrible pitcher. Has been his entire career. It's not going to change this season. He has a slim chance...a very slim chance of being better than Marquis. I hope it happens since we're mindlessly putting this terrible pitcher in the rotation, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm not looking at Marquis/Dempster in spring training. I could care less if both never retire a batter or never allow a hit all spring. They each have long enough track records to know for sure that Marquis is a better pitcher.

Attitude may be important. I'm not arguing against it, but show me how DeRosa's is better than Marquis. Here's how their offseasons have gone:

DeRosa: complained in December, January, twice in February, and twice in March.
Marquis: complained once

If we're comparing the two here, which is silly, but if we are, one has complained one time and then shut up while the other has been a little whiney bitch the last 4 months.

by Maddog on Mar 22, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't recall...

... DeRosa "complaining" five times. If you have specific cites, let's see 'em.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 22, 2008 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think

Roberts is all that good. The numbers I've seen don't show me he's that much better. I'm not a stat-head, so I suppose it's possible I'm wrong.

I also think your complaining "numbers" are off -- I've seen DeRosa speak about this twice.

To me, Marquis can't back up his talk. We saw him last year, not be able to produce. He's been left off TWO post-season rosters in two years.

DeRosa has been able to consistently produce the entire time.

To me, that's the difference.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Loud, sustained applause.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 22, 2008 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marquis

has not responded to the great tutoring of Mazzoni and Duncan, two of the best pitching coaches in the game. His talent is wasted by his inability to respond to constructive criticism. If anyone on the Cubs needs to be a deadline trade, it is Marquis. After the all-star break his value is as a pinch hitter/runner.

by crazymountain on Mar 22, 2008 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ever consider

that it wasn't that he didn't respond to the "tutoring" of these coaches, but doesn't have the skills to be any better than he is?

Regardless of that, I'm not standing up for Marquis. I just want there to be fair treatment, which is not going to happen, I know. It would just be nice to see DeRosa get treated the way he deserves (if Marquis deserves it). DeRosa is nothing more than a little bitch and he's proven that this offseason. I'm sure Cubs fans will continue to support him though...the same ones who couldn't wait to see Sammy Sosa run out of town.

by Maddog on Mar 22, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hang on

I've been agreeing with a lot of what you've said, but I wouldn't go so far as you have in this post. Every major league player wants to play every day and DeRosa is one who fought hard to win regular playing time. He had the second highest OBP on the Cubs last year and I am sure is frustrated that he might still lose his everyday player status just one year after gaining it.

I don't blame any of these guys for speaking out about wanting to play. I'm glad we have players that want to play badly enough that it makes them say things they know they shouldn't say in public. DeRosa is a fighter, who has the bad luck of not being as good as Brian Roberts, but also having the skill of vesatility, being above average at multiple positions. It has to be even more frustrating for him that one of his skills is holding him back from being an everyday player at one position.

by DGU on Mar 22, 2008 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

its all about timing...lets remember that Marquis post game comments

...came within days of the reports that he had sat in the clubhouse and pouted during game 3 of the NLDS becuase he wasnt on the playoff roster.

Let me get back to you, will ya, Charlie? I got a guy on the other line asking about some white walls.

by JB 23 on Mar 22, 2008 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marquis was on the playoff roster.

He just wasn't among the 3 starting pitchers who were scheduled to pitch.

by Maddog on Mar 22, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

DeRosa...

Why isn't anybody upset about DeRosa's comments? Sounds just like Marquis-a big crybaby. C'mon, grow up or request a trade if you don't want to play a backup role. Isn't that what we originally signed him for?

"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse

by ronsanto10 on Mar 22, 2008 9:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

There

by AC 00 00 00 on Mar 22, 2008 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

is

nothing wrong with what DeRosa said and he's been saying it since the first day of the offseason. He wants to be with the Cubs and wants to play. I say the same thing everyday and no one is criticizing me.

Also, I know this was a couple days ago, but Rick Morrissey may be a hack, but I am definitely worried about the rotation. Apparently there were Baltimore scouts in the stands watching Marshall pitch. I want BRob but i don't want to trade Marshall.

by AC 00 00 00 on Mar 22, 2008 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs