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Open Thread: Cubs vs. White Sox, Saturday 3/22, 3:05 CT

Yelloncard_tiny by Al on in Game Threads

SCOTTSDALE, Arizona -- Some local weather forecasters predict that today, the Valley will register its first 90-degree temperature of 2008.

Yes, I know many of you in the Chicago area are buried under up to 11 inches of snow. So let's think warm thoughts and talk baseball.

I posted a couple of articles you may not have seen last night in the thread just below this one. The only thing to update information there is Bruce Miles' article in the Daily Herald this morning, in which he says that Lou may tinker with the lineup for a few more days, but once the Cubs get to Vegas next Friday, he wants to have everything set.

This article is mostly about the White Sox, but I'm posting it for this quote from Kenny Williams, a cogent analysis of trading:

"But it takes two to tango, and there's nothing you can do about it," Williams said. "You give your own assessment of your own team and you picture matchups in your head and you think there might be a need elsewhere.

"But in their minds, they would rather go in a different direction, whether it be for talent purposes or economic purposes or both."

That applies to the Cubs, too (or any other team, for that matter). We can debate trades here endlessly, and I'm sure Jim Hendry has been on his cellphone constantly discussing various possibilities. But there are many other factors involved in making a trade other than saying, "Hey, we want this guy."

Ted Lilly will start for the Cubs this afternoon. He'll face Javier Vazquez. Don't expect to see Kerry Wood today -- his back-to-back outings are going to be tomorrow and Monday. Today's game is on WGN radio -- no TV. It's also on XM, channel 181, and at the MLB.com Mediacenter.

MLB.com Gameday

Discuss amongst yourselves.

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That's a great quote

from KW, even if it's only a clarification of the obvious. Perhaps it took him a lot less time to get fed up with MacPhail and Angelos.

Javy Vasquez has been throwing darts this spring. It'll be interesting to see how the Cubs manage against him.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Mar 22, 2008 10:41 AM CDT   0 recs

Not so obvious when reading some postings here

You can find posts about how bad Hendry is for not acquiring Bedard, Santana, Greene, Roberts, Crisp and numerous others. Some seem to think that Hendry just has to call these teams and request the players and voila, they are Cubs.

by rlpete on Mar 22, 2008 11:07 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Too true.

n/t

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Mar 22, 2008 11:14 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think you are right....

...it is unreasonable to expect the Cubs (or any team) to go after and acquire what is perceived to be every great player that's available. It is unrealistic to expect that type of approach, maybe even silly.

The truth in the criticism may be that the Cubs do not have the quality and depth in their organization to make even the moves that they think would be solid. Or the Cubs may not place as high a value on certain things as other teams.

The Cubs have been making improvements under Hendry, no question. Even with the lack of position player talent in the farm system, they have offset it with above average pitching depth. I like the Fukudome signing and that he'll apparently hit 2 or 1 and that tells me that someone in this organization is finally addressing their woeful OBP in the 1&2 slots. I think it is a reasonable criticism of Hendry that he's either deferred to his manager or just not been persuaded as to the value of not giving away outs at ridiculous rates at the top of the lineup. I am glad that they are willing to use Fukudome to address this problem area.

The roster dictates at least one additional signifcant move to me. Deals get done all of the time, it isn't as hard or as easy as portrayed to get what you need. The Cubs have pitching depth and perhaps two interesting develpomental position players. The Cubs need more star quality players (who doesn't). It's hard to leap to that next level, you need the budget and you need the minor league depth. I don't know if the Cubs have the stomach for the cash required given the onwership transition and they may not have the roster talent to offer? But the roster situation dictates another major move and if pitching is over valued we should get a decent position player in return. The latter type of deal is what Hendry gets paid to do and it's certainly within his capabilities unless onwership has now dictated salary dump v. go for the flag. Still, I wouldn't mind if we traded pitching depth for overall organization depth, even with 100 years of losing you still need a plan for the future.

Finally, under new onwership I'd love to see a Theo Epstein type run the Cubs. I don't hate Hendry (overall he's doing a decent job), but I'd like to see the Cubs have the best and brightest at the top with a plan that the entire organization implements. I don't have much hope for it as I expect the new owners will be insiders who have no intention of spending on player D and every intention on milking that taxpayer subsidy, extracting as much from the team for 3-5 years and selling it for beaucoup gggggrrrrrrr.....

by DudeVf11 on Mar 22, 2008 1:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Question(s)

Just out of curiosity. Could the Cubs get/afford any player they want right now? Do the Cubs have piles of cash in the bank to pay top 10 player money? Do they have the players available that are quality and expendable to make a trade later in the year?

I'm drunk......and it shows.....

by Keystone80435 on Mar 22, 2008 10:48 AM CDT   0 recs

I think the Cubs...

... DO have enough money to add a player at the trading deadline. What do you mean by "top 10 player"? What sorts of players like that are even available right now?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 22, 2008 10:51 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No player in particular.

Just wondering if they had available what it would take to sign an A-Rod or Hanley Ramirez...Holliday..Utley..Santana ..Bedard. Not saying they need to, and like you said the market is closed on guys like these for now, just wondering if they could. Or is the bankroll already spent on Soriano, Z and Dome.

I'm drunk......and it shows.....

by Keystone80435 on Mar 22, 2008 11:00 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It's probably too soon to answer

A lot will depend on what a lot of the younger players do. If Soto, Pie, Theriot, Hill, Gallagher, Marmol etc. show enough to hold down positions full time then that is a lot of cheap players under Cubs control for quite a few years. If that is the case then yes the Cubs could get another really high priced player. However, if the Cubs are having to hit the market to fill a lot of gaps, it might be a little tougher.

by rlpete on Mar 22, 2008 11:24 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess what I'm asking is could the Cubs pull of a blockbuster deal before the deadline if they needed to fill a void with an All-Star and sign them for a multi year deal. I guess the better question is 'would they' not 'could they'.

I'm drunk......and it shows.....

by Keystone80435 on Mar 22, 2008 11:03 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The answer is partially given by Kenny Williams

The Cubs can probably trade for a big name player (they should have the $ for it), but the team trading has to want what the Cubs might offer. In the case of Brian Roberts, the Cubs are helped by the weak demand in the 2B market. But with Erik Bedard, there was larger demand and the Cubs couldn't offer a trade package that matched what Seattle could give. Then, in the case of Santana, the Cubs could have matched what the Mets offered (if MN had liked the Cubs offerings as much), but Santana only wanted to go to the East Coast. So there are a lot of factors that play into these things.

In general, the Cubs have $ room and the Cubs have pieces to trade. The Cubs' farm system has valuable pieces, but no top of the line prospects in it at this time. Things could change by the trading deadline, but if not one of our prospects takes a step up, we may not be able to match offers for any available All-Stars.

by DGU on Mar 22, 2008 1:06 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks

for the info. I hope if a move needs to be made they make it.

I'm drunk......and it shows.....

by Keystone80435 on Mar 22, 2008 1:17 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hendry has been good, I think,

at getting deals that help at the deadline. That Nomar (plus Murton!) trade was a masterpiece. We got Aramis for a song.

Another factor I forgot to mention was that teams are less inclined to trade All-Stars because of the double draft picks they get if the guy walks. In other words, whatever the Cubs offer for, say C.C. Sabathia, has to be better than what the Indians could get with two draft picks in the first and supplemental round of the draft.

But one situation, I'd be watching is LA's SS situation, where they have Chin-Lung Hu coming up, and he may get the opportunity to establish himself as ML-ready at 3B while Nomar and LaRoche are injured. If Hu hits, Rafael Furcal could be available in-season, and he's a player we know Hendry has eyed before.

by DGU on Mar 22, 2008 1:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

good point about LA

But The-Riot has basically the exact same stats as Furcal cept the $13 difference in salary.

I'm drunk......and it shows.....

by Keystone80435 on Mar 22, 2008 1:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah

if Furcal stays at his 2007 level, then we don't want him, but if last year was affected by his early season injuries, and he can hit like he has before, then I'd take his defense even if Theriot is hitting well. fwiw, PECOTA thinks he'll be back to a .350 OBP.

by DGU on Mar 22, 2008 3:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think the Cubs have the money

but they don't have much minor league talent that will interest rebuilding teams. The Cubs best prospect is starting at catcher. After that it's Vitters who can't be traded yet. After that it starts getting a bit shaky. Players like Patterson, Cedeno and Veal all have significant issues.

by rlpete on Mar 22, 2008 11:03 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

thanks

Thats part of what I was trying to figure out. Could they deal players without draining the system of all the top talent.

I'm drunk......and it shows.....

by Keystone80435 on Mar 22, 2008 11:06 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No-Trade Clauses

The problem is (hopefully it's a good problem, but only time will tell) that when you look at the Cubs big contracts for Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Zambrano, and Fukudome, all of them have no-trade clauses, I think, except Dome. Now I'm not saying that's a bad thing because I see no reason why these guys can't keep producing for several more years. But when you're talking about trades, excluding pitchers, you're basically looking at CF, SS, 2B, and C positions that the Cubs could make a trade for at the Major League level, because the other positions are locked up for at least four more years. That's the gamble of no-trade clauses, and you just hope these guys can stay hungry and keep producing after they got their big payday. Again, I think they will, but it's always a risk.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Mar 22, 2008 11:37 AM CDT   0 recs

10-5 Players

Remember, one of the reasons the Cubs were willing to give no trade clauses to Lee and Ramirez is that they will have 10-5 (10 years in majors, 5 with the same team) and will have automatic no trade protection, per the collective bargaining agreement.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Mar 22, 2008 2:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sabathia

Does anyone actually think the Indians would want to trade Sabathia, during a pennant race?

Good point about Furcal. I could definitely see that one happening.

Devin Hester, you are rediculous! -Jeff Joniak

by ARAM FOR MVP on Mar 22, 2008 2:04 PM CDT   0 recs

Oh, let me be clear

I don't think Sabathia is likely to be on the trade market, but you can imagine a scenario where injuries and bad luck land the Indians out of the race and Sabathia is available. I was using CC as an example of a guy I knew was up for free agency.

by DGU on Mar 22, 2008 3:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Lineups

Are up on gameday

Cubs
Fontenot - SS
Soriano - LF
Lee - 1B
Ramirez - 3B
Fukudome - RF
Derosa - 2b
Soto - C
Pie - CF
Lilly - P

White Sox
Ozuna - 2b
Uribe - SS
Konerko - 1B
Dye - RF
Crede - 3B
Quentin - LF
Anderson - CF
Hall - C
Vazquez - P

by berselius on Mar 22, 2008 2:42 PM CDT   0 recs

The only suprise

Is that there are no surprise, despite Lou's wavering on where to bat Dome

by berselius on Mar 22, 2008 2:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess

Piniella is going to give his old line-up one more game before he makes the switch.

by cubsfan25 on Mar 22, 2008 3:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sori

misjudges the ball, and it's a triple. And we're off, folks!

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:07 PM CDT   0 recs

FWIW...

...on the pregame radio interview with Ron Santo, Lou said, at least twice, that the only addition to the team he might expect anytime soon is a backup centerfielder.

Immediately after he said it, I couldn't help thinking that this means the Ronnie Cedeno experiment out there has clearly been put to rest. It's funny; I don't recall Ronnie making any huge errors in the outfield, but I guess Lou saw enough to dismiss the idea out of hand.

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by dat cubfan daver on Mar 22, 2008 3:07 PM CDT   0 recs

an triple for ozuna

on a ball badly misjudged by soriano

by cubs ftw on Mar 22, 2008 3:08 PM CDT   0 recs

single, and Ozuna

scores. 1-0 WS.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:09 PM CDT   0 recs

1-0

on a bloop base hit

by cubs ftw on Mar 22, 2008 3:09 PM CDT   0 recs

I've seen Sori

misjudge too many. I know each team has a set pregame drills, etc., but wouldn't you think that they would have Sori taking tons of fly balls so he can improve? Isn't that what ST is for???

"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse

by BigJohnAZ on Mar 22, 2008 3:10 PM CDT   0 recs

You're right of course

.and I was also going to comment on it. Sori not only needs more practice but also needs to see a shrink since I think he's mentioned he has a psychological issue with it (fear of hitting the wall).

by zevkalman on Mar 22, 2008 3:17 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

inning over

on a pop-up to Lee.

1-0 WS.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:12 PM CDT   0 recs

According to Pat,

Kerry is scheduled to pitch today and tomorrow

by cubs ftw on Mar 22, 2008 3:13 PM CDT   0 recs

I heard that.

Should be interesting to see what happens.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Fonty

walks.

Soriano flies out. 1 out.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:16 PM CDT   0 recs

Lee gets a single

Fonty to second.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:19 PM CDT   0 recs

Double Steal!

Fonty at 3rd, Lee at 2nd.

Struck out ARam at the time, tho. 2 outs.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:22 PM CDT   0 recs

Sweet

We should do more of this. I think it's one of the most underrated moves in baseball. Works great for the Mets (suck).

by lilkimmer77 on Mar 22, 2008 3:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Dome

strikes out.

end of the inning. 1-0 WS.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:24 PM CDT   0 recs

Thanks for the updates

Dome with another K, I'm not worried, I'm not worried, I'm not worried.....

by lemon20pie on Mar 22, 2008 3:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

was wondering if anyone was reading.

:D

They specifically said Dome's swing on that last strike didn't look good. I don't think the five-hole is a good place for him, mentally.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:29 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Agree

I also don't think he'll see as many good pitches to hit compared to batting 2nd.

"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse

by BigJohnAZ on Mar 22, 2008 3:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

I've always wanted him in the 2 hole, mainly for the protection he'll get there out of the big 345. It just makes too much sense!

I also agree with you that he might not be comftorable at 5

by lemon20pie on Mar 22, 2008 3:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree, too.

The No. 2 spot is a better place in the lineup for Dome to get acclimated to Major League baseball. There, he can focus on fundamental hitting and getting on base instead of feeling like he has to swing for the fences.

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by dat cubfan daver on Mar 22, 2008 3:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I couldn't agree more, BUT

I think some of us are forgetting that it's gonna take this guy some time to adapt to a different kind of baseball. Mentally (from what I've heard), this guy is as strong as they come, so I don't think hitting 5th is what's effecting him, especially in ST where I'm sure even he knows the #'s don't mean anything. I just think he needs time to acclimate himself a little more to a different kind of pitching and a whole new culture.

by lilkimmer77 on Mar 22, 2008 3:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ichiro

didn't his numbers stink his first spring training?

by lilkimmer77 on Mar 22, 2008 3:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm reading now..

that i just got out of my car that had the XM hook-up.
Thanks for the updates.

I'm drunk......and it shows.....

by Keystone80435 on Mar 22, 2008 3:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

pop-up

two outs.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:30 PM CDT   0 recs

whaaaa

What was that radio silence about? Did Ronnie say he wasn't OK? My radio reception stinks here at work.

"These are the saddest of possible words: Tinker to Evers to Chance."

by bluebythebook on Mar 22, 2008 3:31 PM CDT   0 recs

not sure

sorry.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

ground-out

to Theriot.

3 outs.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:32 PM CDT   0 recs

Fukodome

He will be fine. He will take a lot of walks when games start to count.

by louslovechild on Mar 22, 2008 3:33 PM CDT   0 recs

Hang on

Did Pat just say that he and Ron are going to talk about what kind of songs pump them up?

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Mar 22, 2008 3:36 PM CDT   0 recs

Ron likes Stairway to Heaven

??????????

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Mar 22, 2008 3:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i think they're talking about

the song to start games with.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yep

Ron wants a rocker

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Mar 22, 2008 3:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ron says he's "not a big Madonna guy."

Likes "Soul Man" and Jimmy Buffet.

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by dat cubfan daver on Mar 22, 2008 3:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sounds like Pat

knows Buffet's entire back catalogue.

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Mar 22, 2008 3:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

DeRosa strikes out

Vasques has struck out 3 in a row(?)

1 out.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:36 PM CDT   0 recs

Soto grounds out

2 outs.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:37 PM CDT   0 recs

Uribe loses the ball in the sun

Pie on at first.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:38 PM CDT   0 recs

Margaritaville?

come on Ronnie....

by lance dickson on Mar 22, 2008 3:39 PM CDT   0 recs

Lilly

grounds out. inning over.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:40 PM CDT   0 recs

Ron Santo

isn't a "big Madonna person."

I'm shocked.

phat

by phat on Mar 22, 2008 3:40 PM CDT   0 recs

maybe he hasn't heard

her later catalogue. After Evita, she changed her style, you know.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Santo's lying...

...I saw him at Smart Bar after a night game a couple years ago, and he was absolutely cutting up the dance floor to a remix of "Ray of Light."

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by dat cubfan daver on Mar 22, 2008 3:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

flyout to RF

Dome catches it. 1 out.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:43 PM CDT   0 recs

uribe on

bloop single.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:45 PM CDT   0 recs

Konerke (sp?)

flies out to Dome.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:48 PM CDT   0 recs

DeRosa

catches the pop-fly to end the inning.

after 2.5, WS 1, Cubs 0.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:48 PM CDT   0 recs

Fontenot

lines out. 1 out.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 22, 2008 3:52 PM CDT   0 recs