Time For Bartman?
by tony412 on Apr 11, 2008 3:49 PM CDT
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PrintI have to confess something. For a little bit there, I wanted to blame Bartman. Today, it almost weighs on me like a heavy uncomfortable winter coat. I don't even know why. It's amazing how blown up out of proportion this even got to be. So do we all share even a tiny bit of guilt over how he was treated? We can all sit here now and say we never blamed him. But the truth is, many, many of us did. Because it was easy.
I stumbled across this article from The Pantagraph (a small daily newspaper from Bloomington, IL) that best desribes what I mean.
The article tells about how certain Cubs including Dusty and Moises Alou fueled the fire that led Bartman having to pretty much disapear off the face of the planet. What I read that struck me the most and prompted me to write this fanpost is the following;
On Wednesday, Baker was quoted in the Chicago Tribune as saying, "I thought that a long time ago," when asked if Bartman should be let off the hook for the collapse. A couple of weeks earlier, Alou told Jim Litke of the Associated Press, "Everywhere I play, even now, people still yell, ‘Bartman! Bartman!’ I feel really bad for the kid. You know what the funny thing is? I wouldn’t have caught it anyway." This from a guy who immediately after the game told reporters, "I timed it perfectly, I jumped perfectly. I’m almost 100 percent (sure) that I had a clean shot to catch the ball. All of a sudden, there’s a hand on my glove."If you’ve seen Alou play the outfield, you know there is never a "100 percent" certainty he will catch a ball. Given the fact this one required him to leap and extend his arm over a railing, believe him when he says, "I wouldn’t have caught it anyway."
It was kind of infuriating to read this. I think we all touched on this a bit the other day when Bill Buckner received a warm ovation in Boston and we all talked about Ernie Banks' comments about moving towards something similar with Sammy. I think Sammy is great and it would be nice to someday have closure to all this between Sammy, the organization and the fans. Sammy will be just fine regardless of what happens or doesn't happen though and I'd like to know something is done with Bartman first. Maybe you all know what's become of him but I sure don't. I'd like to see some of these former Cubs and maybe even the organization do something about it.
Finally, a poll. Let's all be honest here:
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Im pissed at Alou (pissed=pun intented)
One of my favorites, but he fueled it by making it a big deal in the beginning. he should have acted like a man and not a baby jumping up and down about it then commenting about it.
He lost some of my respect with his recent comments despite the fact he was doing it for a good cause. How come reporters can never answer a good follow up? Like "Then whyd you blame Bartman that night?"
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
This is old news but....
I don't feel bad because I never did anything to him personally. I DO however feel bad for him as I have read all the articles on him being a lifelong Cub fan, not being able to go to Wrigley ever again...
I cannot imagine not being ABLE to go there anymore.
Here is a note I have failed to add in the recent talk about this:
I distinctly remember the guy next to him in a grey sweatshirt/fleece ALSO reaching for the ball and being awfully close to Alou's glove, and he got off scott free.
I say save Bartman, lynch that jerk for letting Bartman take all the heat.
Calm down.
never thought about that
I could not imagine not being able to go back to wrigley. I'd probably get plastic surgery and change my look if I had to.
FU-KU-DOH-MEH! clap, clap, clap-clap-clap!!!!
if he showed up hat-less and headphone-less
and wearing sunglasses, nobody would recognize him.
I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt
Actually
when I first realized what a brutal experience this was for him was when I read an article on him a couple years ago...maybe less. It described a life long Cub fan who made a mistake that cost him a great deal of what he loves.
He seems like a good guy and I do thing that more people would recognize him that joeschmitt thinks. He has suffered quite a bit and as I wrote above, there were others trying to do the same exact thing who just got lucky. I am sure he is okay now and I am certain that reading stories in the media about him not being to blame and that he has been forgiven by many, makes him feel a bit better.
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 12, 2008 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions
bartman is fine
but he should NOT make an official visit/first pitch/7th inning performance until AFTER the cubs win it all, and i would hope that he wouldn't want to. that's all he needs is for the cubs to coincidentally tank after he takes the field/booth and voila! we have another goat.
note that buckner only appeared at fenway after multiple sox world championships and a general consensus emerged that they are now the best franchise in baseball.
I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt
point taken
But like Hammer says up above, the media and Alou (for example) should and could do more in the meantime. Alou could do so much with just a simple phone call.
FU-KU-DOH-MEH! clap, clap, clap-clap-clap!!!!
almost agreed
I don't see why he should have to throw out a first pitch or sing in the 7th inning even after we win the WS. Buckner was a PLAYER. Bartman was a FAN. Although he did take undeserved criticism, the Cubs do not owe him this.
Bleeding Cubbie Blue since 1985.
by Bricks and Ivy on Apr 11, 2008 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
agree
but a comparison was made in a previous fanpost to the red sox and buckner, saying the cubs should have bartman back. no way.
I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt
Maybe
the Cubs win it, they invite him and he declines. I know, I for one, would in no way whatsoever want my face even more known to the public. He should tell the Cubs to f-off if he wants to or embrace it. First things first though
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
How about a moratorium on bartman references?
i think he should be in the same category as a certain second basemen and the human air raid siren. i think i have heard enough about him and the 100 year thing lately.
"Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic" Crash Davis - Bull Durham
fully agreed
Bleeding Cubbie Blue since 1985.
by Bricks and Ivy on Apr 11, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Hear, hear.
I'm so tired of all of that. Let's move on. There are ballgames to be won.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Let it go
I for one blamed Bartman that night and for months after, but Ive moved on and realized he had nothing to do with the collapse. I for one would like for him to throw out an opening pitch and I would like to buy him a beer or 12. I think we owe it to him
"We Are Not Fair Weather But Foul Weather Fans, Brothers In Arms In Streets and The Stands." -Eddie Vedder, Someday We'll Go All The Way
I can't believe too many people blame Bartman anymore
I was there that night and the blame I assessed was on the Cubs themselves for so obviously folding under the pressure of so many years of losing. Bartman, with his goofy look and distinctive name just made a convenient scapegoat.
I also can't imagine that he'd have any trouble going to wrigley Field nowadays-I mean, take away the headphones, baseball cap, etc. and he's probably a very average looking guy.
I don't think so...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 11, 2008 5:26 PM CDT reply actions
It's not his fault....
there is plently of blame to go around, it is not this poor fellows fault. With that being said, you should never interfere with a ball still in play. He should have given Alou the chance to make(or not make) that catch. AGAIN, it is not his fault the Cubs lost that game.
Do people still blame him anymore?
I only hear from most people of him in obvious joke references. I really think the media is over hyping the story, just like the media will be covering the Cubs slightly more this year just to hype the 100 years thing.
In complete honesty, I didn't blame him. I'm pretty sure the announcers in that game said a few times "it's what any fan would do" and I completely agreed with them.
I think Alex Gonzalez
is the luckiest person in the world. How the blame never really went his way for that error is beyond me. If i see the Bartman play i cringe, if i see that error...ugh.
He got what he deserved
He couldn't keep his hands to himself and he cost his teams' player a chance at the play.
BoSox fans could have screwed Trot Nixon just 3 days earlier and they didn't. Why? Maybe they think a little more. I do know quite a few people from beantown and they ask how can someone be so stupid. How many times have we heard of morons in Chicago (both sides of town) embarass the team and the city with their actions?
I firmly believe in personal responsibility and consequences for ones actions. I don't know what would have happened if he didn't get in the way. But he did and he paid for it. I don't feel sorry for him one bit.
I AM SO SICK OF HEARING ABOUT BARTMAN!!
It just proves how pathetic we can be as cubs fans to keep bringing up the fact that a fan MIGHT have gotten in the way of a foul ball that moises alou says he would not have caught!! We should be over Bartman. He shouldn't come to Wrigley Field because we need to move on, and that does not involve him throwing out the first pitch of a ball game.
And please don't compare this to the BoSox. Buckner let a ball go through his legs that would have won the World Series. Bartman was out of reach of a foul ball that would have been the second out of the 8th inning in the NLCS!! Who knows if we would have won the World Series.
Time to move on.
Small correction.
If Buckner makes that play, the game goes into extra innings. It was already tied. Otherwise I completely agree with your point.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Correction to my correction!
That game was ALREADY in extra innings (the 10th). If Buckner makes that play, it goes to the 11th, tied 5-5.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
This is the last time i will mention his name
But do you think bartman reads this board?
"Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic" Crash Davis - Bull Durham
I'll bet
santoswoodenlegs is really steve bartman in disguise
Bleeding Cubbie Blue since 1985.
by Bricks and Ivy on Apr 11, 2008 11:48 PM CDT reply actions
bartman
what he did do was a distraction.but the team was responsible for its own demise.i was talking to alex gonzalez and mentioned 2003.he got a look on his face like i was going to start blaming him.priceless.
I'd like to let it go too
but with all the fawning - not just here - about having him come to Wrigley and all the other hubbub is simply aggravating. Award someone for a stupid mistake; that's what's wrong with today's PC society, no responsibility.
Most of the reasoning I hear (which can easily be true) is Alou's tantrum, Prior coming unglued and Dusty failing to calm things down was the culprit. All of that, combined with Gonzo's gaffe, lead to the ultimate meltdown.
What if - and that's a giant what if - he doesn't interfere and Alou still doesn't catch the ball. It's just a harmless foul ball. Alou doesn't come unglued, Prior remains his normally in-control kind of guy, Dusty can continue chewing his toothpick and perhaps the complexion of the game is totally different.
But because someone could not keep their hands to theirself (and I'll continue to reference BoSox fans' actions just 3 days earlier) it triggered a series of events that has forever changed the lore of Cub history.
It's too bad today's PC society is so ready to remove him from his mistake, he could be the poster boy for "this what happens when you don't keep your hands to yourself'".
Now, stepping into today, last night's 5-3 loss could have gone the other way, but guess what, I'll take the Cubs winning percentage right now extrapolated through the entire season. Anyone be upset if the Cubs finished 97-65? Not only does it win the division it may get them homefield for the NLCS also. Lee's power is back, Domer is the real deal and if Z pitches every three games like he did the first three, that'd be just fine with me.
I respectfully disagree...
...the topic has been done to death, but when a ball is hit that closely to you I would say that it's even a knee jerk reaction to grab for it. In this sense he was keeping his hands to himself. I totally disagree with the take in your post on PC being the reason for excusing him of his actions. A drunk fan may take one to the forehead that leaves stitch mark imprints, but nearly everyone will reach for the ball in that situation as a normal reflex response.
The players and the manager and the rest of the fans can choose how to react to a bad situation and that's where personal responsibility comes in (it could have been an umpire making a bad call). The team and the manager failed in this regard, woefully. They collapsed. The manager couldn't make the correct pitching change to save his butt either, but I suppose he was still blaming Bartman for it all at that time.
There is no need to bring Bartman back either and support for such actions is driven more by marketing $$$$$ than anything else. If the Cubs really want to "forgive" Bartman, how about doing it behind the scenes with a man-to-man apology? How about comping the guy with some tickets for the season--all behind the scenes and letting him know he's welcome, how about a few games in a Cubs skybox?
I don't think Buckner requires an honoring day, but just requires to be included in all team events. The team can apologize if they want to and they can also, through their PR, directly address the public and explain their views.
Honoring Sammy? (I am not suggesting that you are referring to Buckner or Sammy in your post, just getting back to some comments in the original post here) No way! or should I say "No Habla" Sammy's a disgrace, he should stay away, but glory hound that he is if the Cubs even hint at such an honoring, when the Red Phone rings back (at the Trib.) from the return call, you know that bullshit is on the line and the amount of revisionist history will be staggering.
So much has been made about...
Alou having a tantrum that it unglued Prior; perhaps so. That's certainly not out of line and rather believable. Therefore if there wasn't an attempt to grab at the ball and Alou simply didn't get it, he doesn't wig-out, Prior doesn't come unglued, Dusty can continue to chomp and maybe Gonzo doesn't bobble; that's all. Look what'd happened if Alou did catch it. The IF defencive alignment is different with 2 outs than with 0 or 1 out when there's a [potential] force play in effect.
I'm not referencing Billy Buck or Sammy in any way. IMHO Buckner simply put, was one of if not the best player on the Cubs roster his 6-7 years here. He stays relatively healthy and you're staring at a 3,200-3,500 hit career. Smooth, one of the purest strokes I've ever seen. He was a scapegoat in a game that was getting well out of hand long before his gaffe.
As for Sammy, I'm guilty. I was one of many who fed the monster that kept hitting HR's. In 2001 I was so proud of his stats with a BA of .328, 146 runs, 64 HR and 160 RBI. 3 times in 4 seasons with 60HR's, only player ever to hit more than 60 HR's in a season 3 times....But look how it all turned out just a few years later.
What I am referring to the Pedro/Zimmer smack-down game the previous Saturday at Fenway. Nixon went to the RF wall (low wall there in that part of Fenway) and the fans scattered like rats when the light comes on. He makes the catch. Here in ChiTown? There'd be at least a couple morons that would fuck with their OWN teams' player attempt at the ball. I'd almost be willing to place a bet on it.
Bottom line is this little schmuck set off a chain of events that who knows how they'd be different if he didn't do what he did. Who knows, the fish could have scored 8 even if there was no 'foul ball'. But it would have been at least understandable (though still maddening) if the games' karma changed with no outside influence what so ever.
I didn't see the play in Fenway so I can't comment on it....
...I think even Fenway fans would have attempted to catch the Bartman ball. He was sitting up slightly higher than the field and it could easily have appeared as a foul ball, which it was, in to the stands. "It's coming at me" reaction. Alou was and is a joke as a defender and that's what is so lame regarding his BS theatrics at the time. He'd have more success catching his own piss in his hands then he would running and catching fly balls at the same time. I have no idea why that caused the collapse, of course it didn't. My main point was that Bartman's response was normal and that the ball wouldn't have been caught even had Bartman let it go.
I see no reason why Alou would rant about it at the time and no reason why the manager just sat there, but he had that mindset that it's the pitcher's own damn responsibility to take himself out of the game (so no one can blame me), next question, and where's my kid I need a shield, attitude....
A better manager and we likely win that series, to me that was the story--Dusty getting schooled by a relic.
I have seen what you are referring to where fans part for the home player, it does happen and I have seen it happen the Bartman way. It's part of the game either way and you can't let things get to you. Alou certainly let it get to him and Dusty didn't miss a chance to add another excuse to his bag of excuses, but I doubt it had anything to do with Gonzales booting a ball, Dusty's dumb bullpen decisions, Prior being out of gas, and Dusty just standing there and chomping while it all was pissed away....
Point is, in a critical situation (e.g. playoffs)
BoSox fans did not go after the ball...
Rationalizing his actions as normal is what is wrong. It's like with my kid telling me that other kids "do this or do that" in school so she feels its OK for her. My response is, "if they jump off a cliff, you gonna do the same?"
It would have been interesting though if Dusty did come out and calmed down Prior. How everything else would have played out.
Do we ever get to meet?
Ive only been a member of this blog for just under a year, does anybody actually meet up for a beer or anything?
"We Are Not Fair Weather But Foul Weather Fans, Brothers In Arms In Streets and The Stands." -Eddie Vedder, Someday We'll Go All The Way
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