The Great Pie Debate

by Morg98 on Apr 11, 2008 4:56 PM CDT Comment 33 comments

This topic is as stale as TTTSNBN. We have people that will turn a blind eye to the fact that he is batting .182/ .217 /.182 in 22 AB's and discount this because he "needs" a chance to develop at the MLB level. Then we have people that say he sucks even though he tore up the minors at every level and is still young enough to make changes and turn into a very good baseball player. Captain obvious says he will land somewhere in between. I am neither a Pie supporter or basher. I root for him because if he succeeds he makes the Cubs better. That is what is important, the Cubs being better. If he were to "never make it" as an every MLB player, that would be unfortunate for him because there is obvious talent but I wouldn’t shed any tears.

Right now he is absolutely lost at the plate. That happens. It's ok. But am I willing to sacrifice the next 2 months of the season to his growing pains? Something that may or may not lead to an answer. No, I am not. Can we win without any offensive production from his 8th spot in the line up? Sure. Do we really want to try it? I say no. I don’t think we can give up any outs in any game if at all possible. I still think he should start 1-2 games a week for now. Put him in high leverage/low risk situations. Get him to bunt for hits. Get him to practice going to left field. Get him in pinch hitting roles and late inning defensive replacement roles. But by no means should he get 200 uninterrupted AB's until he can prove he can hit on a consistent level.

I like how Lou started him the night after his game winning hit. Lou put him in a position to succeed and build on confidence earned the night before. Unfortunately Pie wasn’t able to capitalize. But until Reed's numbers, .389/ .500/ .444 in 18 AB's, go down (and they will) why not ride his hot bat? I mean he has a freaking OBP of .500 right now, how can anyone say he shouldn’t be playing?! When Reed cools off, I am fine with going to a platoon or even getting Pie in there for a majority of the games. But until that happens or Pie is able to string together a few good plate appearances (doesn’t have to be hits, but show he is learning and trying to fix his approach), we have to play Reed.

This team is built to compete now. This team is built to win NOW. The window to win in the playoffs is very small. Look at the 2003 team. How many people thought we would make it back to the playoffs in 2004? I know I did. Who knows if we will be able to compete next year, or later this year for that matter. Our division looks to be getting tougher every year and I don’t want to throw away AB's this year for the sake of developing someone for an uncertain future, this year or next.

Maybe it is time we put this argument to rest. We let Lou do what is best for the team. We get Pie in whenever we can and root for him to succeed. Yes, I realize hitting against live pitching is extremely difficult and is easier with consistent AB's, but now is not the time to develop. Now is the time to win.

(All stats courtesy of BCB stat page)

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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great post

n/t

Go Cubbies Go!!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Apr 11, 2008 5:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Give him time if he doesnt play rthen he wont hit

I think he will be good with consistent ABs

"Hey Chicago what do you say the Cubs are gonna win today"

by fischisgod on Apr 11, 2008 5:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Play him against all righties

Reed Johnson is not this good. Beware small sample sizes. Remember how badly we got screwed by Neifi's hot April in 2005?

In the short term, Pie will be at least as good as Johnson, and playing him will help in the long term.

Between Pie and Hill, there's far too much panicking and worrying going on for a 6-3 team.

by DrunkenSuperman on Apr 11, 2008 7:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I would of liked Pie in CF tonight

and Dome in RF. I think Pie and his great defense outweighs his poor offense. With Soto and Dome being hot, and the rest of the lineup, I think it is better to play Pie in CF for his defense, and hope his offense comes along.

by GoCubbies34 on Apr 11, 2008 8:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

agree, especially since they are facing a LH tmw...

..He needs to play, period.

Felix Pie must play everyday!

by JB 23 on Apr 11, 2008 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pie would grow that window

I'm being over optimistic here, and Pie at the plate has been woeful, but he is an above average CF defensively, and we saw tonight how much of a difference that makes, as I'm sure there were two runs he would have prevented. I think this team CAN survive a couple months with a defensive only CF while we find out if he can produce offensively.. What did Kouzmanoff hit last year for the first two months? .162 or something? If we hit June or July and Pie still sucks then fine, no reason not to look to upgrade. But at some point this team has to produce from within. The Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, all big market teams, are doing this. And if this is supposed to be our prime prospect, we need to find out now. One week does not a season make.

Also, he's being done no favors by batting 8th, where theriot should go, and DeRosa, with his .370 OBP and baseball discipline, should be #2. Pie will never see anything to hit at 8, probably wouldn't at 7 either but there's more of a chance.

by SamFels on Apr 11, 2008 9:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Loud, sustained applause.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 12, 2008 4:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Totally agree.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about Pie, too. Saying he looks "lost" after 22 ABs mixed into inconsistent playing time is hardly fair. I can't deny that Johnson has given the Cubs some great production -- deep at-bats, good baserunning and some key hits. But his defense abilities don't match Felix's, and with the Cubs showing some pretty consistent power early in the season, I think it's safe to put Pie in center for a prolonged period (though I'm fine with him sitting against lefties then maybe entering the game in late innings). And moving him up to the seven hole would be a nice touch.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 12, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i want to see him more just because i enjoy watching him play, and he would be all the better if he could hit

by Wrigley Ryan on Apr 12, 2008 12:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Lost at the Plate

After 10 games around the majors:

Miguel Cabrera .182/.308/.303
Robinson Cano .159/.178/.182
Derek Jeter .208/.240/.292
Andruw Jones .114/.184/.143
Russel Martin .156/.308/.219
David Ortiz .077/.250/.154
Hunter Pence .196/.213/.304
Jose Reyes .205/.238/.256
Mark Teixeira .179/.256/.359
Troy Tulowitzki .175/.267/.225
Jim Thome .143/.211/.371

10 games tells us nothing. Even the best players can look utterly lost for 2-3 weeks in a season. Having Pie start 1-2 times a week is the absolutely worst idea. Either play him or trade him.

Part of the problem here, I think, is that Lou's motto is "You hit, you play." That's good in many situations, but not necessarily for developing young players. Go back and look at the beginning of his career. He hit right off the bat and was a rookie of the year. His experience tells him other players should do the same, even though a large percentage of rookies don't greet the majors that way - and Lou was 25, old to debut in the majors.

If Lou won't give Pie the chance to succeed, it's time to call the Giants and see if Pie+Gallagher+Patterson can buy us Cain+TheOtherRoberts

by DGU on Apr 12, 2008 9:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

If I may borrow a phrase from Al....Loud Sustained Applause, DGU

...they need to quit screwing around and commit one way or the other. As you can tell by my sig, you know where I stand.

Felix Pie must play everyday!

by JB 23 on Apr 12, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 12, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I see what you are saying...

You make very good points. I dont know if this makes a difference, but to clarify a point I had above, I want to see Pie start 1 or 2 games a week UNTIL we get to a position where he can start every day. And I know Reed isnt as good as his numbers indicate, but if he is worth an early 2 or 3 games...or the difference between a 4-3 win and a 7-4 win and thus keeping our BP "fresher" then i say we got to.

Like I said, i want Pie to succeed because i think he can be a great home grown option. But why not for the month of April, let Reed get the AB's until he stumbles AND then let Pie develop? I think MPH73 summed up my feelings below....this could come down to a game or two at the end and I would hate to say we were sitting a guy who had a hot bat in favor of developing a guy for a future that may or may not include the playoffs. Lets just ride Reed's hot streak and then get Pie his AB's.

by Morg98 on Apr 12, 2008 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also to note about your list

Those player get cut more slack because they have proven to be able to hit MLB pitching with some consistency. And yes the sample size is small, but who wouldn't take a .55 OBP over 25ish AB's?

by Morg98 on Apr 12, 2008 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

*.500 OBP

by Morg98 on Apr 12, 2008 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not that I don't value Reed Johnson.

It's that I value Felix Pie based on scouting reports and minor league stats and the high likelihood that given both the stats and reports he will succeed. I gave you the names of proven ML bats above because we all know they are good. Below I cite two rookies last year who were both nearly ROTY. Both started horrendously but their clubs stuck with them.

My view is that Pie should play against all RH pitchers for 45 games. If he's still looking bad at the plate then it's time to make a trade, hopefully for David DeJesus. Reed Johnson should play against all LH pitchers and occasionally spell Fukudome and Soriano against RHP. There's plenty of playing time to go around.

by DGU on Apr 12, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Loud, sustained applause.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 12, 2008 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed......

time to let him play or do a deal like that. How bout those 3 players you mentioned for Cain and Omar Vizquel? Then sign K. Lofton for next to nothing. Although I certainly cannot imagine the Giants dealing Cain or Lincecum. It'd be alot easier to try and let Pie develop offensively if we were'nt hurting for offense at the SS position. As I said before.......I was hoping for Brian Roberts but that may end up as a great trade that was not made because I think having some chips to get a frontline pitcher may pay off. IMO that's our biggest need

by plenz on Apr 12, 2008 9:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I figure to entice the Giants to trade

we'd need to take a bad contract or three. They were looking at trading Cain/Linc for Delmon Young and Alex Rios in the offseason, so it's conceivable that if they liked Sean Gallagher something could happen.

I also think the SS angle is worth considering - they may want Cedeno.

I also hope Jim Hendry is calling up the Tigers and unloading Jason Marquis as we speak.

by DGU on Apr 12, 2008 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I trust Piniella's judgment...

...on what happens with Pie, and I happen to agree with what he has done to date.

The Cubs priority this year is to win as many games as is possible, period. This is not development time, it is pile up wins time. Pie will get some playing time, but I agree he should not be in there everyday, based on how he has been overmatched at the major league level. It's one thing to be in a prolonged slump, it's another to not show signs of starting to get "it".

I could be wrong as can be on this judgment, but I see Pie's playing time decreasing as the year goes on, and I also think it's likely he is out of the CF picture for 09.

No one wants to be wrong, but I hope I am with this one. I don't want to see another touted Cub's prospect wallow away, and watch his value plummet.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Apr 12, 2008 9:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Here's the question -

Do you believe Pie can outplay Reed Johnson v. RHP this year? If you believe he can, as I do, then playing him now and getting his feet under him so he's strong the rest of the season is smart by your criteria of winning as many games this season as possible.

Similarly - you want to win every game possible, but you don't have Carlos Zambrano pitch 135 pitches every game he pitches, increasing the odds that he's not available all season long, even if Carlos' last 30 pitches would be better than Kevin Hart coming in to relieve him.

by DGU on Apr 12, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let me put it this way...

...Pie is a better defender than Johnson, but he has shown me nothing to make me think he would out perform Johnson offensively, even against RH pitching.

Here is what is more important; I am convinced that Piniella's experience is telling him the likelyhood of Pie becoming a decent hitter is slim and none, and this is impacting how he is using him. You can say he is right or he is wrong, but you can't ignore the Cubs are not in a position to try and develop a player who has shown nothing at the major league level.

If the Cubs were not in a "win now" mode, I would say put Pie out there for 40-50 games and see if he comes around, but they don't have that luxury.

This is going to be a close race folks, and if the Cubs miss the playoffs by 1 or 2 games, you woudn't want to look back on the season, and see you lived with a CF hitting .200 for half a season. That is something that could cost you dearly, and I don't see Piniella letting that happen.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Apr 12, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

your last paragraph MPH

sums it all up. It's unfortunate for Pie but we can't afford to wait half a season for production from CF. He may very well turn out to be good.........but I just don't see greatness from him. I guess I'd be more encouraged if he did'nt continue to have no chance on anything inside. I would have liked to have seen at least some improvement in that area

by plenz on Apr 12, 2008 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the Cubs DO have that luxury...

... maybe not for 50 games, but at least for half that many. Benching him like this is NOT going to get him enough at bats to stay consistent.

You know what's going to happen if he gets sent down, don't you? He'll rake AAA pitching again and people will be clamoring to have him back.

Either play him or trade him. Doing what they're doing is pointless.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 12, 2008 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it all will depend...

...on what position the Cubs are in in about a month. If they are winning consistantly and in good position, Piniella may loosen the reins a bit. If they are hovering around .500 or only slightly above, I just don't see Lou banking on someone improving their game during the season. He will put the best players out their, and not think twice about it.

Regarding trading Pie, I'm not so sure that opportunity has already passed them by. I would think his value is 75% of what it was a year ago, even if he hits well again at AAA later this year.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Apr 12, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe.

If he rakes again at AAA, there's bound to be some scout who will recommend to his GM acquiring him. If that happens, Hendry should jump at the chance.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 12, 2008 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

right.........

but.....as I said before.........batting him 8 is not helping either. After the games in Philly against lefties......why not play him against Cincy for that series and give him a shot batting 2nd........who knows.........maybe he sees more pitches out over the plate in front of Lee and Ram

by plenz on Apr 12, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Truer words were never spoken....

by crazymountain on Apr 12, 2008 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Learn from the 2007 NL Champs

They had a rookie SS whose track record of hitting in the minors was not as good as Pie's. On April 14, 2007, his ML line was .162/.262/.216. On April 29, it was .205/.303/.359. On May 15, it was .243/.316/.353. But from that date to the end of the season, he hit .305/.371/.515.

What if the Rox had sat Troy Tulowitzki on May 15 and went with the veteran Jamey Caroll? What if they had decided that they had to win each game regardless of the next and jerked Tulowitzki around playing him here and there and he never got out of his funk? The answer is easy - the Padres would have been in the playoffs and the Rockies would have sat at home all October.

It's not an either/or for winning now and developing rookies - more often, in fact, it's the team that developed their rookies in-season who win. If you're not convinced of that, look to the team that beat the Rockies in the World Series. On May 1, Dustin Pedroia was hitting .172/.294/.224.

by DGU on Apr 12, 2008 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Loud, sustained applause

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 12, 2008 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Al

Youre hands must hurt. Let the kid play

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 14, 2008 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pie is in the wrong place wrong time.....

...that is to say, if the top of the order had produced well from the git go then Pie can be afforded to be carried.

If the team is really willing to commit to Theriot and Johnson at No. 2 in the order then they ought to commit to Pie, he's got a higher upside.

Eventually the team will figure out that Fukudome should be hitting somewhere in top 3, and Theriot/Johnson should be down at like 6/7.

I would like to see the Cubs have patience with Pie as a No. 8 hitter, but the top of the order was doing such a poor job that I think Lou felt he had to try and find production from anywhere. But if the top of the order produces then you should give Pie a lot of time at no. 8.

by DudeVf11 on Apr 12, 2008 10:31 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs