Can You Go Home Again?
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 8:42 AM CDT
in News
364 comments
Longtime readers of this site will remember that I was a defender of Dusty Baker long past the time when it was reasonable to do so. In retrospect, that was a big mistake, and I acknowledge all of Dusty's failures with the Cubs -- and we don't have to rehash them here. Baker was a success with the Cubs up until a certain fateful inning in 2003. After that, the litany of mistakes is huge.
Again, this post isn't meant to recap, but to look forward to tonight, when we will see the return of Baker as manager of the Cincinnati Reds; it will be his first visit to Wrigley Field as a former Cub manager
This is a very rare event. Here is the complete list of Cub managers (besides Baker) who held another managing job after they left the team (years they managed the Cubs in parentheses):
- Bob Ferguson (1878); managed several other teams from 1879-1887
- Tom Loftus (1900-01); managed Washington Senators in 1902 and 1903
- John Evers (1913 and 1921); managed Chicago White Sox in 1924
- Fred Mitchell (1917-20); managed Boston Braves from 1921-23
- Bill Killefer (1921-1925); managed St. Louis Browns from 1930-1933
- George Gibson (26 games in 1925, after Killefer); managed Pittsburgh Pirates from 1932-34
- Joe McCarthy (1926-30); managed New York Yankees from 1931-46 and Boston Red Sox from 1948-50
- Rogers Hornsby (1930-1932); managed Browns from 1933-37 and 1952 and Cincinnati Reds in 1952 and 1953
- Bob Scheffing (1957-59); managed Detroit Tigers from 1961-63
- Harry Craft (16 games in 1961); managed Houston Colt 45's from 1962-64
- Bob Kennedy (1963-65); managed Oakland A's in 1968
- Leo Durocher (1966-72); managed Houston Astros in 1972 and 1973
- Jim Marshall (1974-76); managed Oakland A's in 1979
- Lee Elia (1982-83); managed Philadelphia Phillies in 1987 and 1988
- Jim Lefebvre (1992-93); managed Milwaukee Brewers for the last 49 games of 1999
That's not a very inspiring list -- only McCarthy had success after he left the Cubs (and the Cubs probably should never have let him go), and over the last 50 years, the only former Cub managers to have returned to Wrigley Field in the opposition dugout are Durocher, who as an Astros manager seemed bored and out of it (though he did manage Houston to their second winning season, 82-80 in 1973), Elia with the Phillies, and for one series as interim manager of the Brewers in late 1999, Lefebvre. Even before that, only Mitchell, Gibson and Craft (whose Cub tenures were brief and forgettable), and Hornsby came to Wrigley Field as visiting managers.
So we are witness, this week, to something that's happened rarely in Cub history. Will I boo? Probably not. Indifference, in my opinion, is the best reaction. Jay Mariotti, who I often criticize here, has it exactly right today:
This is a man who never quit as much as he never fit in. Baker should have done more homework about Cubdom and its indigenous demons and frustrations before he quickly grabbed general manager Jim Hendry's offer late in 2002, when he was looking for work after the Giants lost the World Series and didn't want him back. Actually, Hendry should have done more homework on Baker, too, instead of falling in love with the marquee name.
I'm more interested in seeing the reaction to former Cub prodigy Corey Patterson, also returning to Wrigley Field for the first time since being unceremoniously dumped (for minor leaguers Carlos Perez and Nate Spears, neither of whom is likely to ever wear a major league uniform) at the end of his horrid 2005 season.
It'll be an interesting night. Most importantly, the Cubs are looking to start winning home series. I'll have a game thread up later this afternoon.
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Let's please not boo him...
He was an overrated manager with a nack for killing young arms (and playoff hopes), but I hope fans welcome him with a respectful indifference.
Hector Villanueva's Career Stolen Bases: 1
by IowaCubs- on Apr 15, 2008 8:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Save your energy
for the employee
by dr stabbingworth on Apr 15, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm much more...
...interested in Patterson as well. I see he has hit for some power and hasn’t struck out much this year, but he still looks like he is getting him self out on bad pitches with his weak OBP.
No one should know how to pitch this guy better than the Cubs, and I can’t wait to see if Cub pitchers are able to expose his weaknesses.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 8:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't boo...
We have enough on this team to cheer about that we don’t need to waste our time booing Dusty and Corey.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 8:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
there is no need to boo or make them feel crappy. Let’s just hope they do not succeed tonight!
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 15, 2008 8:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post Al
I hadn’t realized the small list of former Cub Managers that returned to Wrigley Managing for another club. Only 2 in my lifetime.
I did purchase a ticket to tonight’s game, nor will I be attending, but I agree with you and that if I was there, I wouldn’t boo him and I wouldn’t applaud him. I don’t think he deserves to be booed. Was he the greatest Manager? Heck no, but he was a good man and everything he did, was what he thought was in the best interest of the Cubs.
Patterson doesn’t deserve to be booed either. It wasn’t his fault that the Cubs and Cub fans overhyped him and compared him to Lou Brock before his first strike out at Wrigley. He was bad but he didn’t do anything that deserves to get booed for. It’s so silly and petty IMO to boo ex players or Managers. It show’s that you haven’t gotten over it by booing someone.
I just hope the majority of Cub fans will show some class tonight and not boo. Let’s move on.
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 8:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
EDIT: I did NOT purchase a ticket....etcetera etcetera etcetera
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'd assume if you didn't buy a ticket...
...you wouldn’t be attending. Or do you know of an effective way to sneak in that you’d care to share with the rest of us? Something to do with the new drainage system perhaps?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL Daver
Guess I stated the obvious there. Although I have snuck into Wrigley once before. Well kind of. One time when I did purchase a ticket, when I was a much broker man at the age of 21 and after hitting Murphy’s and only $15 in my pocket, I noticed I lost my ticket. I was with a group of 8 friends and let’s just say, I was also much quicker then too.
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, the old "blend in with the crowd" trick. I may have to give that a try sometime.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not many successes there.
I guess that excpet for about 4 guys in the list, managing the Cubs to a losing season could be considered a career-ending move.
by Fraggin Judge on Apr 15, 2008 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From an out of towner
I know that many of you who attend games regularly feel that you have the “right” to boo. Just please know that your actions represent not just you individually but, literally, millions of cubs fans across the nation.
As much as I hope “we” will be classy tonight, my fear of being embarrassed by a few will probably lead me to not watch or listen until after Patterson’s first at bat.
by TC Cubby on Apr 15, 2008 8:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well said
I agree with you that especially since it’s a drunk game I mean Night game, the majority will boo and taunt Corey just because they’re liquored up and think it’s funny and amusing and won’t think twice about how it effects the image of Cub fans. It’s certainly never stopped them before.
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is how I felt...
...watching the opening day game on TV while crabby Cubs fans booed Wood…embarrassed.
Hector Villanueva's Career Stolen Bases: 1
by IowaCubs- on Apr 15, 2008 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, me too
Doesn’t it seem that there are more than a few fans who think we should go 162 – 0 because of the hundred years?
by crazymountain on Apr 15, 2008 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Relax.
Fans boo in every sports venue in the country. I do not feel “embarrassed” by the idiots who’ll boo Dusty or Corey tonight. I just feel sorry for them but I refuse to give them any free publicity or heightened importance. They’re just part of the fans in attendance.
by Fraggin Judge on Apr 15, 2008 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Sox fans shouldn’t be embarrassed by the Ligue’s? Illini fans shouldn’t be embarrassed by the harrassment directed towards Eric Gordon and his family? Detroit Pistons fans shouldn’t be embarrassed by the riot in the palace?
Understand, I’m not saying that you are personally responsible for the actions of another fan. For that reason I don’t ridicule Sox fans for the Ligue incident. However, isn’t there a part of you that says “We are better than this”?
by TC Cubby on Apr 15, 2008 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Ligue incident...
.... is in no way comparable to booing someone.
Not defending the booing necessarily, but these are not the same thing at all.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point was
to respond to the assertion that we should not be embarrassed if attendees do boo, ie, that conduct from other fans doesn’t relate to us. I thought that was Fraggin Judge’s point; however, on reading his post below, I see now what he means.
by TC Cubby on Apr 15, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We are better than that.
That’s why I don’t think much about those who boo. I refuse to give them any importance. Boo if they want to. Everyone can choose to make a ridicule in public.
I don’t think a riot in a game or harrassment of a player or executive is in the same category. Booing is just the ugly antithesis of cheering. It’s even needed sometimes, but not tonight against Dusty or Corey.
by Fraggin Judge on Apr 15, 2008 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Ligue
Spend the day at Wrigley for the Cubs game before going to the Sox game? Or was that another idiot?
"To know that I know what I know, and that I do not know what I do not know. That is true knowledge" - Confucious as quoted in Walden
by toaster on Apr 15, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was the other idiot...
Can’t remember his name.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather
beat them then boo them tonight!
by sdurst on Apr 15, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately....
they will both get booed by some. This is usually due to people that are not every day fans that remember the names and now boo them because they are on a different team. I was at the Twins home opener this year where there were a lot of boos for Torii Hunter. I personally am not a “booer” of players because when they are 0-32 they know better than anyone that they are not doing well. I am also not a “booer” of former players/managers because the past is the past. I do recall Mark Grace’s return to Wrigley and I did hear a few boos come out.
My question is if Bako plays will he get booed?
by 1060 W Addison on Apr 15, 2008 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And let's not forget the other former Cubs.
Let’s hope Bako doesn’t haunt us in this series like Jason Kendall did in the opening Brewers series.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 9:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Was listening to a Reds radio program...
on a biz trip to Cincy 2 weeks ago. The radio host actually said “I know all about Javier Valentin, but I REALLY like Paul Bako.”
I thought for a minute he was talking about the Louisville Bats.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh.
Thats funny. On that same level, last year I saw Jose Hernandez (middle initial might be K) hit a walkoff home run for the Indianapolis Indians (Pit AAA) last year against the Bats.
"Sometimes an intelligent man is forced to be drunk in order to spend time with fools." -Hemmingway
by IndyDiehard on Apr 15, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Merker
If anybody should be booed it’s him, especially for being a dick to Stoney.
by dr stabbingworth on Apr 15, 2008 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im sure Stoney deserved it
Not what was published, but I think Stoneys a jerk.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I have posted before...
...I have spoken to people close to what happened in 04, and here are a few facts:
1. Stone was not well liked by several players (and front office people) long before Dusty got here
2. Stone is even more arrogant off the air then he is on the air (if you can believe that)
3. Merker was the ring leader of 04 (but everyone knows that now)
4. Dusty had nothing to do to stimulate the actions towards Stone, but he also didn’t intervene
From what I have gathered, Stone’s personality was not well respected or liked by players and front office folks alike for sometime before the blowup. Dusty could have jumped in to nip it before it got out of hand but he didn’t.
Stone is a very very smart guy, but he has been absolutely teflon when it comes to how this whole thing was reported in the media. I am not excusing Dusty or any players for how they handled it (because they were wrong), but let’s just say Stone has a personality that can and has frayed a lot of nerves.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I knew I wasnt the only one who felt that about Stoney.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have heard many of the same things.
Glad to see them confirmed.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've always liked Stoney...
and found him to be entertaining and very knowledgable-but, apart from that, I also have heard first hand stories about what a complete jerk he can be when the mikes and cameras are off. I’m also not really defending what was done to him or th eway it was handled, but, yeah, I don’t think it was as one sided as it seemed to be at the time. And, without trying to defend Dusty-who was truly a terrible manager-I don’t think it’s right to blame him for the way some his players acted-I mean, these are grown men, right?
by bluekoolaide on Apr 15, 2008 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, well...
...let’s just say as far as public perception goes, Stoney has lived a charmed life.
Folks in the media (written & electronic) know all this same stuff, but I really think they fear saying anything bad about the guy, because it would cause more trouble for them then good.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome to modern day Wrigley...
...while it’s exciting to have a full-house for every game, it wasn’t all that long ago that the Cubs averaged 25-30K per game vs the 40K they get today. The big difference is this; there were probably more knowledgable baseball fans in the park when they drew 25K vs the 40K they draw today and that is reflective in how the ballpark reacts.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 9:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It may be the same number of knowledgeable fans...
... the rest of the park filled with tourists and gawkers.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right on, Al.
I don’t think the number of knowledgeable Cubs fans has diminished, it’s just that the people who come for the “party” are increasing. Unfortunatley these are the people that the vast majority of outsiders view as “Cubs Fans.” If/when Dusty and Corey get booed tonight it will be by the drunks, etc who think they are being cool, not by knowledgeable Cubs fans.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Apr 15, 2008 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was the point...
...I was trying to make. Thanks for making it clearer.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You made an excellent point.
n/t
by Tangled Up In Blue on Apr 15, 2008 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And in my experience..
the night games are the worst..
Wood for closer.
by wicubfan on Apr 15, 2008 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yup
The one image I have burnt into my mind is of Hawkins back with Giants pitching in the rain and hearing thousands of people chant “Hawkins sucks.” sure he didn’t play all that well for us, but that was awful.
---AC 00 00 00 - Believe
by mjk83 on Apr 15, 2008 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wasnt awful
That he blew every game when he came back against us,
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrigley crowd
The crowd at Wrigley has sadly deteriorated the past several years. The diehards and average true blue baseball fans are being overwhelmed by the corporate types, yuppies and frat boys. Unfortunately, I think a lot of baseball players around the league (to include members of the Cubs) think poorly of our crowd. Let’s face it, there are too many a_s clowns in attendance these days. You would have never said that a decade ago.
by MDBNIU on Apr 15, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think YOU wouldn't have said that a decade ago.
It’s a neighborhood ballpark. In a neighborhood populated by young, urban corporate types.
I’m a little sensitive to the “corporate, yuppie, frat boy” comments, because technically I’m all three. I also happen to think I’m a pretty good fan.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and another thing...
can’t
corporate, yuppie, frat boy
=
diehard and true blue
?
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spoken for the truth.
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry
by Jayo525 on Apr 15, 2008 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
speaking from one fraternity guy to another....
I’m sure you know that there is are different kinds of people in fraternities. The are frat boys and there are fraternity men. I trust you know the difference and I’d be willing to bet that you are in the latter category.
---AC 00 00 00 - Believe
by mjk83 on Apr 15, 2008 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"the past several years," really?
Seems to me that people have grumbling about the onslaught of “corporate types, yuppies and frat boys” for the last 20 years. Wrigley Field is a tourist destination—get over it. And when the Cubs are expected to do well, as they are this season, the number of, shall we say, “casual spectactors” will rise dramatically. Again, we “serious fans” just need to accept this and get on with enjoying the game and our favorite team.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, MDBNIU
folks like me, who live in far away lands that make sure a game at Wrigley a definite tourist stop are not, and can never be, “diehards and average true blue baseball fans”? I think that is about as ignorant an opinion that I have ever heard…...
by crazymountain on Apr 15, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who said that?
I didn’t. A lot of the best Cub fans in the world are people who don’t live in Chicago. Or catch games at Wrigley. I have no problem with the tourist crowd. They have always been a backbone of the crowd at Wrigley. What saddens me is the overwhelming numbers the generally disinterested and the obnoxious. I’m a corporate type myself. And once upon a time I was even a yuppie. So generalizations are not what this is about.
by MDBNIU on Apr 15, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah... I go to one or two games a year.
... does that make me a “tourist” BlueMike?
Hector Villanueva's Career Stolen Bases: 1
by IowaCubs- on Apr 15, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate to be rude but...
what do you base “I think a lot of baseball players around the league (to include members of the Cubs) think poorly of our crowd” on?
by Holy Cow on Apr 15, 2008 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are obnoxious fans everywhere.
Especially where alcohol is sold. The RF bleachers in the old Yankee Stadium were famous because fans yelled obscenities at players and even threw the batteries of their transistor radios at the outfielders for the opposing team (or their own after a very bad play, in very rare occasions).
And what about fans all over the country, especially at Shea, chanting “Larry” sarcastically at Chipper Jones?
Fans are fans. Some are polite, others are rude. I suggest we try to emulate the polite ones.
by Fraggin Judge on Apr 15, 2008 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remmeber sitting in the LF bleachers
when Giles was a Pirate. Brians wifes name is “DODE” The fans chanted DO-DE DO-DE DO-DE. It ws actually pretty funny.
Still to this day, Carlos Lee is the best “sport” when it comes to ribbing in the bleachers, I love when hes out there, just not at the plate.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
70's Wrigley Crowd
As a kid – no better place after opening day – tickets were about $2 dollars but the temp’s were about 38F. If you sat in the bleachers back then – very few knowledgeable folks out in that part of the stadium. Mostly drunk and all loud and many shirtless. Great memories of those Cubs vs. Expos games in 78!
by rmonday557 on Apr 15, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cub players gush over Dusty
Bruce Miles had a great column today. He interviewed Kerry Wood, Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez and Michael Wuertz for their opinions on Dusty. Each of them gushed with praise and said Dusty is one of the best in the business. Wood also said it’s horse bleep that Dusty ruined Cub pitchers, to include himself.
I hope the Wrigley crowd acts with class today and accords Dusty the respect he deserves. Maybe it will end the ridiculous obsession some Cub fans have for the man and his managerial methods.
by MDBNIU on Apr 15, 2008 9:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Dusty's failure
was just an incorrect pairing of player type and manager type. They enjoyed success a little too early into his career, and Dusty’s not a great manager for players who think they’re the best team. Dusty works best with teams like the Reds, who need the confidince that a “player’s manager” can instill.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baker works best...
... when there are strong player-leaders, as the 2003 Cubs had with Eric Karros and Damian Miller. When they left, the inmates started running the asylum, with predictable results.
I don’t know if this year’s Reds have similar clubhouse leaders—but if they want to have any chance to succeed, they’ll need them.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also works best with a good team
not what Jim Hendry gave him that last year. We hung on the premise that Prior and Wood would be back way too long. We should have stockpiled a pitcher (s) like it seems Jim has learned now. And when DLee went down, that was the finish. I’ve said this many times, if Baker would have gotten a one year contract with the team that Lou had he may have still been here. I like what Lou did last year but it’s clear the players liked Dusty and given time and a team we might have still liked him…..although that base clogging thing would never go away! Let’s hope we clog the bases tonight and have some timely RBI’s.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
by mrcubsfan on Apr 15, 2008 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lou
I think the way Lou cleared house and gave opportunities to players nobody expected to hear from says a lot about both Lou’s ability to judge talent and Dusty’s inability. Granted, Baker would have done better than 2006 with Sori, Lilly, and Marquis, but not what Lou did.
by dr stabbingworth on Apr 15, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who wouldn't do a better job with a better team?
Dusty is not the worst manager out there; he just isn’t the phenom that his media cronies at ESPN say he is.
by Fraggin Judge on Apr 15, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Torre...
....didn’t exactly tear it up before he got to the Yankees did he? He is the gold standard example of giving a manager WAY TOO MUCH credit for a front office that got him all the parts.
Dusty, on the other hand, is the best example of a manager who got WAY TOO MUCH blame for the injuries he faced, and bad decisions by the front office.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said.
Kind of the perfect example. Switch the teams for the managers and you may get the same/similiar results.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Casey Stengel.
Same deal. When he managed the Dodgers and Braves he was thought of as a buffoon.
He goes to the Yankees and suddenly he’s a genius.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that guys like
Griffey and Hatteberg can help provide that for Baker.
by davidalanu on Apr 15, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
What is this based on? Did you ever once set foot in the clubhouse with the team? Have you talked to a single player from the 2003 Cubs about this theory? Please show me something that supports this asinine theory.
by Leon Durham on Apr 15, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, it's a blog/message board.
Al doesn’t need to step in a clubhouse. Neither do any of us.
What we do on a blog/message board is take the facts, rumors, and observations in the public domain, mix them with what we see/hear on a regular basis (because most of us do watch/listen to all the games), and spit out our opinions. These opinions, especially in Al’s case, are mixed with a general knowledge of the game.
Al’s right, Dusty has a body of work that shows he works best with strong leadership from a couple players.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where?
In SF, who were the leaders who kept the team together? Jeff Kent? Barry Bonds? It’s a nonsense theory that is completely unsupported by known facts.
Normally, I’d agree with you that one does not need to step into a clubhouse to comment on baseball. But that’s for things that either take place on the field or can be verified on the field. But this absurd theory is based solely on what happened in the clubhouse, so in that case, some insider knowledge is necessary to back it up.
The idea that Karros and Miller were the leaders of that team and were somehow more responsible for the 2003 team’s success than the manager strikes me as a steaming load of horse crap. It’s precisely the same type of argument – that is, one not based on any kind of demonstrable fact, as the argument that says Ryan Theriot is a good player or that Mark DeRosa was the most valuable player on the Cubs last year.
by Leon Durham on Apr 15, 2008 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Robb Nen, Russ Ortiz, Livan Hernandez, Reggie Sanders, Kenny Lofton, Rich Aurilia...
Sure, Kent and Bonds had their problems. But they were swept up and they won the pennant.
That doesn’t happen without player leadership.
You’re pointing to the two most skilled players on the Giants. Al wasn’t pointing to the two most talented Cubs from 2003, certainly.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's funny
I like how you just pick random names and declare them to be the leaders of the team?
I especially like how you pick Kenny Lofton, whose entire San Francisco Giants career consisted of less than one half of one season. I’m sure he came in, led the team, and then was not given a new contract by the Giants after the season. Thank God Dusty Baker had Kenny Lofton to control the clubhouse and get the team to the World Series.
by Leon Durham on Apr 15, 2008 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lofton wasn't a leader for us?
When he played the same amount of time?
The Indians?
And I wasn’t just “picking random names.” These are veteran players who led the team.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hell no
Lofton wasn’t a leader of that Cubs team.
He was a leadoff guy. Perhaps you are confusing leadoff with leader.
by Leon Durham on Apr 15, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Were you in the clubhouse?
If your above argument is logical, how about a taste of your own medicine?
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You would be right
Except for one problem.
1) Lofton was a midseason pickup making it unlikely he led the team.
2) If he was such a leader, surely the Cubs would have made some effort to keep him around in 2004.
I guess that’s two problems.
by Leon Durham on Apr 15, 2008 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jeff Kent was a team leader...
... regardless of what you’ve heard about him.
In this entire thread you’ve simply torn down this idea without providing one shred of evidence as to why you believe it isn’t so. In fact, it is clearly evident from Baker’s body of work and many others besides me have said so.
If you have any proof to the contrary, let’s hear it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
100% correct...
Kent was the only player on that team that would tell Bonds to stick it, and that earned Kent a tremendous amount of respect from his teamates.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
thats literally THE ONLY reason I like Jeff Kent. OTherwise I thought he was kind of a jerk.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is ornary...
...as hell, but he plays hard.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Surely
there’s a quote out there from a former teammate of both of theirs that would lead you to such a conclusion. Please provide one.
I think Jeff Pearlman is pretty much a useless writer, but he identified Shawon Dunston as the main person who would stand up to Bonds and bridge gaps with teammates. (see page 224 of his crappy book on Bonds).
Jeff Kent is widely regarded as a loner in the clubhouse. But you seem to know otherwise. Not sure how
by Leon Durham on Apr 15, 2008 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you talking about
Do you understand the concept of not being able to prove a negative? I can’t do that.
A manager, by definition, is the leader of a team. In fact, I’d say that, given how obvious it is who plays what position, and the fact that lineup construction has been shown to not have a significant effect on scoring, leadership is a manager’s most important job.
You put forth the argument, apparently based on nothing more than what you see from the bleachers and read in the paper, that two role players effectively usurped that role from Dusty Baker.
And in doing so, you have completely and utterly failed to offer anything beyond “it is clearly evident from Baker’s body of work and many others besides me have said so.” While I understand that that may seem like a good argument to the kids who are the most common posters on this site, I would expect betteer from you. Perhaps I was mistaken.
You could start by explaining what it is you base your opinion on. Dusty Baker repeatedly led the Giants to the playoffs. In 2003, he did the same thing with the Cubs. In 2004, he almost did it again with the Cubs. In 2005 and 2006, he had crap teams that couldn’t have sniffed the playoffs no matter who their manager was.
Dusty Baker’s former players roundly praise his managerial skills. There’s some evidence for you.
What have you got?
by Leon Durham on Apr 15, 2008 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can't ignore...
...how much Dusty won in Frisco. He won too many games and for too long a period to be lucky. Given the right players, Dusty has proven he can win, as many other managers could with the right mix of players.
As with the example I gave on Torre’s record before he got to fill out a lineup card with the Yankees, managers get too much credit and too much blame for either the strengths or weaknesses of their rosters.
Dusty does somethings well, and he does somethings bad, just like most other managers. To give you an example; I don’t believe Dusty could have orchestrated what Piniella did last year to turn the club around by nuking Izturis and Barrett and putting Theriot and Marmol in a position to contribute to turning it around. Dusty would have probably blindly backed these guys and rode them out the rest of the year, and probably with shitty results. Piniella on the other hand, is better at recognizing players weaknesses, knows what he wants and is very decisive in going about it. No way the Cubs make the playoffs last year without Piniella taking the bull by the horns.
Managers are all unique, but a lot of them will win with good players, but Dusty’s strength is not recognizing who those players should or shouldn’t be.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point...
...and I would expand it by saying Hendry needed to know what he was getting when he hired Baker. He was known as a poor strategist, and not the best evaluator of talent, even when he was winning all those years with the Giants. Hendry needed to recognize this, and do what a GM is paid to do – get the manager the right players.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which he did in 2003.
Why he didn’t keep doing that afterwards is a mystery.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So true...
which is the reason a lot of us believe the signing of Soriano and Pinella before last year was an attempt to pump up the value of the franchise.
by crazymountain on Apr 15, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
.... the signing of Soriano and Piniella (and Fukudome this year) was an attempt to put a winning team on the field.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only half true...
Make no mistake the Chicago Tribune was trying to make a splash and tweak up the appeal and value of the franchise. If we have learned anything since the Tribune takeover in 1982 it’s that they view Wrigley as a cash cow to be milked to the maximum.
by MDBNIU on Apr 15, 2008 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they want to win...
...and that was part of it, but we can’t ignore that they really opened up the wallet knowing the club was going to be sold, and they wouldn’t be dealing with long term, no trade, backloaded contracts.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
?Pump up the value of the franchise?
The “value” of this franchise is in the ballpark… and the merchandising.
Who ever buys this team has to pay the remainder of Soriano’s BS $136 mil contract. How does that pump up value?
Cubs 2008 (7-5)
Home (3-3) | Road (4-2) | 1-Run Games (2-2) | Extra Innings (3-1)
Updated on April 13, 2008
by SackMan on Apr 15, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A playoff team is more valuable than a 66-96 team
Even I had a hard time watching the Cubs in 2006 and I watch every game.
by dr stabbingworth on Apr 15, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't either...
...and it simply drives me nuts. The 2nd half of 03 proved just how important the table setters are at the top of the lineup and the influence they can have to alleviate prolonged offensive slumps.
Although the 03 club didn’t look as good on paper, it was the right blend of players that got it done. Fukudome was a good step in the right direction, but one more top of the order piece is needed.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gee, I wonder who you have in mind?
n/t
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The piece that we may see soon
is Leiber into the rotation. I can’t argue with a guy who pitched 7+ innings in TWO games last week and what that’s worth, but if LIlly and Hill don’t get it together it won’t be IF we see Leiber but when. My guess if once more through the rotation and if either Hill or Lilly falter we’ll have a change in starters. The other piece you may refer to will come this summer, and I bet it’s still Roberts after the O’s fall apart in the tough AL East.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
by mrcubsfan on Apr 15, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
I just have a hunch that Lieber will be starting by the All-Star break, if not sooner, regardless of what happens.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Apr 15, 2008 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It will be next week
Leiber will be starting very soon, unless Lilly, Hill and Marquis all have great starts.
Cubs Win!! Cubs Win!
by Ihatethecards on Apr 15, 2008 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt it'll be as soon as next week.
n/t
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously
It’s not like they have “Pie” labeled on their back.
by dr stabbingworth on Apr 15, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope I'm wrong
I’d love to see Hill, Marquis and Lilly turn it around. I just think Lou will have a quicker trigger than others here might think.
Cubs Win!! Cubs Win!
by Ihatethecards on Apr 15, 2008 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to have...
...that particular player, yes. As time goes on, I wish more and more that he played SS, instead of 2b.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Granted
the players all took the high road and classily said only good things about Baker. Most people will act this way, especially athletes who are used to backing each other up and not casting blame. To assume that’s how they really feel is somewhat naive. We see this type of behavior all the time in our society, at work, even within our own families. Seldom do people speak their minds, even if they say they do.
None of this is meant to condone disrespecting Baker or anyone else though. I appreciate class and would rather see it than not.
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly my thoughts
the players wouldnt just rip into dusty in some “guilt trip feel bad for dusty” article.
Aramis 5 BB - 3 K, he's come close before, I'd love to see a season from a Cubs player with more walks than strikeouts.
by kylejo on Apr 15, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs managers
I did some research last year on where Cub’s managers go after they leave the team. I don’t have the info in front of me, but I am nearly certain that the LAST Cubs manager to manage in 200 (may have been 162 games, I cannot remember) or more games in the rest of his career after the Cubs was Bob Scheffing (1957-59). That means in the last 50 years if you managed the Cubs, your career was essentially over for making that decision.
by gocubsgo22 on Apr 15, 2008 9:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Lee Elia...
... managed 254 games after leaving the Cubs. Leo Durocher managed a season and 1/4 with Houston. But those two and Scheffing are it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As Steve Stone has often said....
The Cubs have traditionally been the La Brea Tar Pits for Major League managers. He also correctly predicted, as a lot of people did, that Dusty Baker would someday be one of the few former Cubs managers who would get another managing job.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Apr 15, 2008 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mile's article...
...is very accurate as to how Dusty’s former players view him.
Bottom line with Dusty:
He is great with the players, but he is a bad baseball strategist.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 9:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Correct.
Players like Dusty for the same reason students love those teachers who will always grade them with A’s and will not give them any homework: they like him because he’s easy on them. That doesn’t make Dusty a great manager, though. He’s just a player’s manager.
by Fraggin Judge on Apr 15, 2008 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To support your poing, just look at Scot Eyre's quote when he came to the Cubs
He said he signed with them because he knew Spring Training wasn’t as laborious with Baker compared to other Managers.
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what..
if st isn’t like boot camp? And Eyre has had his greatest success under Dusty. I may be the only guy here to say it, but I loved the guy. He brought us a lot more smiles and success than any other manager we’ve had in my lifetime. I loved his toothpics, wristbands, confidence, etc….C’mon dude, show him some love.
"I lost it in the sun"
by Bump Bailey on Apr 15, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He brought you smiles?
2004 and 2005 were the 2 most miserable seasons I think I ever had as a Cubs fan.
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope.
2006 was the 2 most miserable seasons I had as a Cubs fan.
Yes, I know I only mentioned one year. But it felt like two.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I was gonna say...
...2004 had at least the potential to be a good season. The Cubs were in the wild card race until the last week or two. 2005 had its moments - namely DLee’s breakout - but the team never quite “felt right,” if that makes any sense. 2006 was the Hindenburg, plain and simple.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure how I missed '06 but yeah, obviously '06
2004 frustrated me so much, because I felt that Baker was personally responsible for quite a few losses because of decisions he made and if they had an adequate Manager, they would’ve made the playoffs.
Then you had all the excuses and the players totally ran amuck and he let them and never took control of the team and how GD stubborn he was. How he’d make the same decision and do the same move no matter how many times it failed! For instance how he would give days off to hitters who were smacking the shit out of the ball, because “they deserved it” !!!
I’m just glad he’s gone and we have a Manager now who makes certain players are accountable and doesn’t want to be best buds with everyone on the team.
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean 1997 wasn't worse??
Riggleman loses 14 in a row to start the season and survives?? Season over by May 1. That was certainly the worst year in my lifetime.
Wood for closer.
by wicubfan on Apr 15, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn't.
Mainly because I didn’t have much expectations for that team.
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and you did for '06..wow
n/t
Wood for closer.
by wicubfan on Apr 15, 2008 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just noticed
your pic is Al Swearengen, lemon20. Sweet.
Wu!
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Co*ksucka!!!
Greatest television show of all time.
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
his pic reminds me of Schneider from One Day At a Time.
"I lost it in the sun"
by Bump Bailey on Apr 15, 2008 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i see...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 15, 2008 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hehehe..
Good one!
"I lost it in the sun"
by Bump Bailey on Apr 15, 2008 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's hilarious!!!!
LOL it does look a lot like Schneider!
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
All you have to do is look at Dusty’s record of achievement in San Francisco and Chicago to go along with his stellar 19 year playing career. Jim Hendry is equally culpable for the failures of 2004, 2005 and 2006. He gave Dusty crap to work with in too many respects. And the fomulation for winning kept changing every six months. First it was win on the backs of Wood and Prior, then it was club 3 run homers, then it was small ball with the Neifis of the world. I’m pretty sure that Dusty wouldn’t have objected too loudly if Hendry would of placed in his possession some REAL prospect talent (not Corey Patterson, Jason Dubois et al) and acquired some prime time players instead of rubbish and 2nd basemen.
by MDBNIU on Apr 15, 2008 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eyre was also quoting this past offseason....
as saying his bad first half in ‘07 was due to him still being in “Dusty-mode” in Spring Training last year (my words, not his, but that is essentially what he eluded to). After he got off to such a terrible start, he was used, basically for mop-up work in 10-0 games until he finally buckled down and got his stuff together. There is the difference between Dusty and Lou right there.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Apr 15, 2008 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or
it’s just Eyre making lame ass excuses…
"I lost it in the sun"
by Bump Bailey on Apr 15, 2008 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give Dusty A Little Credit, We're Better Off with Lou
Dusty is the only Cubs manager (2003-04) since Leo Durocher (1969-70) to get the Cubs to finish within 10 games of a playoff berth two years in a row. Remember, the Cubs were dreadful in 2002 before he took over. Dusty did want to create new good history with the Cubs. and brought a positive attitude to the franchise. Of course, I hated his leaving Kerry Wood in game 7 of the 2003 NLCS after the Marlins had retaken the lead. The Cubs did right by not renewing his contract after that awful 2006 season. I’m glad we have Lou now because he’s won a world championship as a manager and won division titles in both leagues. Lou is not a slave driver with starting pitchers like Dusty was.
by memphiscub on Apr 15, 2008 9:19 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Is that
talent or mere chance? Statistically, getting within 10 games of a playoff spot two years in a row is not too difficult. And then there’s the “So what?” factor. He got us close, so that’s a good thing? It’s time to not settle for close anymore, which is why so many fans are ledge-jumpers or downright cynics.
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm Glad Dusty WAS Here, I'm Glad Dusty's Gone Now, Don't Boo or Cheer Dusty
No, Dusty didn’t get the brass ring here. I say getting close was a good thing in 2003, when the Cubs hadn’t been In an NLCS since 1989. His failure was folliowing up that success with the Cubs collapse at the end of 2004 (which was more shameful than losing the last 3 games of the Marlins series), a losing 2005, and an awful 2006. The best thing to do tonight is not boo or cheer Dusty. We have too many mixed feelings about him, and he’s with a division rival now. It’s pretty “grim” and not so jolly to think that the last Cubs manager to have the team STRONGLY contending for a lot of years in a row was Charlie Grimm in his first tour of duty with the Cubs way back in the 1930’s.
by memphiscub on Apr 15, 2008 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree, to a point
ONe reason I think we did well in 2003 was this: LUCK. We were not injury prone. And the one major injury we did have actually worked out for the best. Corey gets hurt, they need a CF so they get Lofton, oh, and hey, you want a third baseman, take this Aramis guy off our hands. So we didn’t have injuries, we had one of the best 1-2 combos in the game with Wood and Prior. We had some no name saving games right and left. We made the plays when we needed to. In 2004-2006 we had injuries: Wood, Prior, Lee. Big ones. The problem with Dusty is that he is a stubborn man who will do the same thing until it works even if it never does (Neifi!). Lou on the other hand is Mr. Tinker, trying to create a perfectly running Swiss watch. So don’t blame him when the watch stops.
They call me MISTER Fukudome!
by brokenland on Apr 15, 2008 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Al...
By the bye, do you still have the bleacher tickets available for tonights game? I pinged you by e-mail a few days ago, but got a NDR back last night.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 15, 2008 9:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That's weird.
Did you use the email link on the site? That should work.
In any case, no, my bleachers for tonight are gone. Sorry!
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No worries...
I wouldn’t expect the scalpers to charge more than a few bucks over market tonight.
The e-mail thing was probably me. I manage my own servers, and have been moving a few around lately.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 15, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al, FWIW...
...I tried e-mailing you (at your BCB address) a couple weeks back regarding some of the feedback/suggestions I had about the new site format, and I got an NDR back as well. In fact, I tried both my personal and work address and both were bounced. I had the same experience - with both e-mail addresses - when I tried contacting the SBN site, too.
Not a huge deal. My feedback wasn’t earth-shattering or anything. But I thought I’d mention it.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone else had this problem?
n/t
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup, on the old site.
I was having a log-in problem.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've seen this come up a few times...
If this is a frequent thing, may I ask that you check with the mail admin to see if you’re doing reverse lookups on SMTP servers? A lot of companies don’t have their reverse zones configured correctly, and it would also explain why mine got bounced (as I was swapping around servers/addresses at that time).
Just a thought.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 15, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
... could you translate that into English, please?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ouch...
Sorry. Sometimes mail servers are set to check the IP address of a server that is sending mail to you against DNS. If there isn’t a matching record for the server that is sending the mail, then your mail server rejects messages from that sending server.
You’re seeing this sort of verification more often to protect against spam. But many companies don’t configure the DNS information for their boxes to allow for this.I’m wondering if perhaps it’s that, or your Junk filter is working in overdrive.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 15, 2008 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would it help if I posted the text of "failure notice" e-mail I received?
I happen to still have it. (And, yes, I clearly need to clean out my in-box.)
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here ya go.
Hi. This is the qmail-send program at yahoo.com.
I’m afraid I wasn’t able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I’ve given up. Sorry it didn’t work out. <al@bleedcubbieblue.com>:
69.9.170.114 does not like recipient.
Remote host said: 550 <al@bleedcubbieblue.com>: Recipient address rejected: temporarily blocked because of previous errors – retrying too fast. penalty: 60 seconds x 0 retries.
Giving up on 69.9.170.114.- Below this line is a copy of the message.
Return-Path: <daverm_98@ameritech.net>
Received: (qmail 76545 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Apr 2008 14:52:09 -0000
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
s=s1024; d=ameritech.net;
h=Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID;
b=MogpH200mU89vFWp8os49BZTQJ2WK0GKWT0R5ZBuOeh5BGK6cLSswWd5dJ+TxAtDYkY5j78goRVQreYcrrxQ2L2t1s1HR1uQWUO5XH/QkgMhJG4tPHsAbBv9VQ0d2O4WVTh54zEU4dVoruKBNYuXMCglAJ1Us6tq36pGrjeGPFQ=;
Received: from [66.102.124.123] by web81206.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 04 Apr 2008 07:52:09 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/902.40 YahooMailWebService/0.7.162
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 07:52:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Miller <daverm_98@ameritech.net>
Subject: Site performance suggestions from dat cubfan daver
To: al@bleedcubbieblue.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=”0-1711794507-1207320729=:75914”
Message-ID: <331893.75914.qm@web81206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>—0-1711794507-1207320729=:75914
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asciiI think that’s the pertinent info.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
There’s only a generic 5.5.0 code, so you’ll need to bring this back to your mail admin Al. I tried manually sending a quick message to you as well, and the server rejected it with a 4.5.0 (recipient rejected; that’s you).
220 mail.satanosphere.com ESMTP Postfix (2.1.5)
helo me
250 mail.satanosphere.com
mail from:damen.jackson@dljhosting.net
250 Ok
rcpt to:al@bleedcubbieblue.com
450 : Helo command rejected: Host not found
by Damen Jackson on Apr 15, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"penalty: 60 seconds"
what is this, hockey?
"Is there anything he can't do?" ~Len Kasper, 4/5/08, on Kosuke Fukudome
by JohnM on Apr 15, 2008 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow... I never learned this in French class.
Hector Villanueva's Career Stolen Bases: 1
by IowaCubs- on Apr 15, 2008 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question.
Are you emailing using the direct link on the site? If you are, try typing al (at) bleedcubbieblue (dot) com into your email client directly.
Both of those errors are really, really strange. I haven’t seen those before and don’t know what would be causing them. I know that several people have emailed me recently using this site link without trouble.
The address on the site, as you may have guessed, is an alias, so I’m not sure even who would be involved in correcting this problem.
Try typing the address into the address bar manually.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just sent you a "test" e-mail...
...and I typed the address in manually.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And there's the bounce message. This one's a little different:
Hi. This is the qmail-send program at yahoo.com.
I’m afraid I wasn’t able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I’ve given up. Sorry it didn’t work out. <al@bleedcubbieblue.com>:
69.9.170.114 does not like recipient.
Remote host said: 550 <al@bleedcubbieblue.com>: Recipient address rejected: Mail appeared to be SPAM or forged. Ask your Mail/DNS-Administrator to correct HELO and DNS MX settings or to get removed from DNSBLs; in postmaster.rfc-ignorant.org; in abuse.rfc-ignorant.org
Giving up on 69.9.170.114.- Below this line is a copy of the message.
Return-Path: <daverm_98@ameritech.net>
Received: (qmail 67843 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Apr 2008 18:09:47 0000
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
s=s1024; d=ameritech.net;
h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID;
b=NV1Sm6bLmKWlkERV8y7yFLbUEsBeO9Lx/GMcIIWtbX3d6NSPWmflNkMqXk53×1/Q9oGja25Ej44kQlqCfyp1hjx/GnHsr5Dv2OwUaZ4eb4L2LkLlOhclUcB2lcRro/f6feCmFJ6pwGGmiP/gDeTPpNomy6qrdeZXMxTdFx5/7GU=;
X-YMail-OSG: _ukduqEVM1nmlJ2P.7D8Me46jLvvqv5t70vXXOWJ7lJZRnoM5cwrFSX8SntpqxxrDrZQU_blmg-
Received: from [66.102.124.123] by web81206.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:09:47 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/902.40 YahooMailWebService/0.7.162
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:09:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Miller <daverm_98@ameritech.net>
Subject: test
To: Al Yellon <al@bleedcubbieblue.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=”0-606836417-1208282987=:66054”
Message-ID: <38946.66054.qm@web81206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>—0-606836417-1208282987=:66054
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget to drink your Ovaltine...
n/t
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
by Lou In Blue on Apr 15, 2008 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
Looks like what I thought. The mail admin has implemented reverse lookup verfication and/or blacklists.
The admin likely won’t change it, but maybe Al can get him to whitelist your e-mail address. Or if you’re feeling adventurous, you can bang your head with your own admin to have him fix your DNS info.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 15, 2008 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like you two are blacklisted for some reason.
I’m not quite sure why, or how to get you off the blacklist, because as I said, the bleedcubbieblue.com address is an alias.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any idea why I would be blacklisted?
Could it be because I have a very common name? Just curious. And when you refer to my admin, do you mean Yahoo!?
Thanks for helping out here, by the way, even if a solution does look unlikely.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would suggest
simply emailing him from another account if that is an option.
---AC 00 00 00 - Believe
by mjk83 on Apr 15, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's certainly worth a try.
I have received mail from Damen Jackson in the past, so I have no idea why I can’t now.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll try my work account again, though that didn't work before.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it still doesn't work I'll email you myself.
n/t
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK. So far, so good -- no bounce back e-mail yet.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No email received from you, either.
n/t
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Argh! Anything yet?
I still haven’t received a bounce back e-mail, and I sent the e-mail about 45 minutes ago.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No problem for me.
I sent you an email yesterday using the “email Al” link on the left side of the home page. You obviously got it as I received your reply this morning.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on Apr 15, 2008 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Booing is acceptable
Because occasionally it is. The problem is that it is done SOOOO much nowadays. If I go to a game at either NY stadium, it doesn’t matter if they are playing the Red Sox or Phillies, or the Royals and Giants. They boo the opposing players when their names are announced. Um, what’s the point?
I was at a cubs game in ‘85 or ‘86 when Sutcliffe was yanked after something like 3 innings having given up 8 runs. A bad game. And we booed him. I did too, I was 11 years old. I was mad.
I also had a very short memory. As do most people when they boo their own team.
In the last ten years I have booed one player one time. John Rocker. It was soon after the whole “New York is an AIDS ridden Babylon” thing broke and I was living back in Chicago. Cubs, Braves. Down three bottom nine. Rocker comes in and the whole crowd just unleashes on him. It felt good. What felt better was when we tied the game on him and he left. Then we cheered. That felt great.
I boo bad guys. I thought Rocker was a pretty bad guy back then, as did – it seemed – everyone else. Dusty is not a bad guy. He’s not even a bad manager.
Booing Dusty or Corey might make us feel, er, better. But cheering our own side on will be far more rewarding.
They call me MISTER Fukudome!
by brokenland on Apr 15, 2008 10:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yessiree, Bob.
I would also add in anyone who beaned, spiked (Edgar Renteria, I’m looking at you), or generally went after one of ours.
But those guys are always, by definition, on the other team.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How bout last year when Cub fans booed Zambrano
A couple days after he signed his new deal and pretty much gave the Cubs a hometown discount. Amazing. Like I said many times, I’m not immune to booing, but I save that for players that I don’t feel are giving all the effort that they can or don’t seem to care one way or the other. That’s just me though.
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Basically
I would boo someone who I consider “tarnished the game”. Clemens I would boo, however Petitte I wouldn’t because I think he atoned for his sins and appeared contrite. Bonds, probably boo. Pete Rose, hell ya! And if Bud Selig made an appearance within my zip code I would probably punch his lights out.
They call me MISTER Fukudome!
by brokenland on Apr 15, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the thing.
I wasn’t at the game when Big Z got booed off the field after signing his contract. But I was at home watching and was so mad I wanted to throw my TV out the window. (Mad at Z, not the fans). That day, it wasn’t just the “drunk, yuppie frat boys” booing, as so many people like to say. It was everyone, including the die-hards. It doesn’t mean that people don’t love Big Z, because he is one of the most popular Cubs. I absolutely love the guy. Love his energy, and his passion. But that particular day, people were pissed. He was in a stretch where he was pitching like garbage, we were in a tight pennant race, everyone in the organization was babying him and making excuses for him, and people were fed up with the whole thing. That was one day where I say it was OK to boo a bad performance. Because it was “enough already”. I agree that bad performances are booed too often, when boos should be reserved for bad guys, or not hustling or giving 100 percent. But once in a while, fans have to show players how much they care, and that day with Zambrano was one of those days.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Apr 15, 2008 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bad baserunning
Wasn’t that the day that he made a huge (read: bone-headed) base running gaffe. Ran through a stop sign to try and score and got nailed at the plate by about 20 feet. Then huffing and puffing took the mound and proceeded to walk everyone and their brother and gave up 6 runs while only getting one out.
Same day, right?
by Archie on Apr 15, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats it.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At home
I was booing the heck out of him too from my chair. If I remember right, my wife asked me what I was so upset about and got a 5 minute dissertation on Z the idiot.
by Archie on Apr 15, 2008 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha many times
my family has told me to relax….they just dont know what its like being diehard
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boo and boo heavily...
but nothing beyond booing is acceptable. Still, It is okay to boo the heck out of Dusty because he was a very highly paid manager that did a very bad job while he was in chicago. He abused his pitching staff and he may have singlehandedly ruined Mark Prior’s career (maybe he can still have a career in San Diego). His refusal to play young players may have set the franchise back a few years, and his refusal to stand up to Sosa also blew up in his face. Good managers know how to get to their star players. Sosa was in need of some guidance and Baker failed.
Not suprising to anyone should be that I think Dusty Baker is a terrible baseball man. He managed arguably the greatest offensive force in the history of the game when in San Francisco and then cashed in heavily. San Francisco was at that time a very well run organization with great talent throughout the system, and Dusty was just along for the ride. BOO THIS MAN!!
by smitster2008 on Apr 15, 2008 10:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Mark Prior ruined his own career.
Don’t blame Dusty for a guy who simply wouldn’t sacrifice what it takes to take the mound every 5th day and be one of the best.
Cubs 2008 (7-5)
Home (3-3) | Road (4-2) | 1-Run Games (2-2) | Extra Innings (3-1)
Updated on April 13, 2008
by SackMan on Apr 15, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Prior had half the heart that Kerry Wood has
He’d have won 15+ games in each of the last several seasons.
Cubs 2008 (7-5)
Home (3-3) | Road (4-2) | 1-Run Games (2-2) | Extra Innings (3-1)
Updated on April 13, 2008
by SackMan on Apr 15, 2008 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This may be pushing it a bit.
I’m no huge fan of Mark Prior (any more), but no amount of heart would change the fact that his shoulder has about as much stability as spun glass.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seconded
I feel for Prior – where were all the Prior haters when they took apart his shoulder last year and realized that he had been playing hurt for so long? It’s one thing to play through a minor injury, it’s another if your arm is going to fall off. I blame Dusty for the high workloads and the Cubs medical staff for poor diagnosis before I would ever blame Prior. His inability to deal with the media was his main problem…how hard would it be for you if suddenly all your talent evaporated away and everyone was calling you a wuss?
by berselius on Apr 15, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What did they find in his shoulder?
Other than the normal tissue debris that EVERY OTHER PITCHER has… or any QB has. It comes with the wear and tear of using that body part to perform.
From the things I read in the past about his surgery, it was nothing more than a simple “cleaning.”
Cubs 2008 (7-5)
Home (3-3) | Road (4-2) | 1-Run Games (2-2) | Extra Innings (3-1)
Updated on April 13, 2008
by SackMan on Apr 15, 2008 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Per Wikipedia
Prior missed the rest of the 2007 season after going through season-ending surgery. After one start in the minors, which he won despite giving up 3 runs, Prior had Dr. James Andrews, a noted orthopedic surgeon3 perform “exploratory surgery” on his right shoulder, which, not surprisingly to the fans and media, showed Prior to have structural damage that the Cubs had never properly diagnosed or treated and Dr. Andrews immediately addressed the issues.
I’ll try to find some articles that were written around the time later. But structural damage does not equal normal wear and tear IMHO
by berselius on Apr 15, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
word
for everyone who keeps spouting off the “prior is a wuss” line, you’re just making yourselves look bad. prior pitched hurt. prior pitched through pain most pitchers wouldn’t have considered even attempting to pitch through. structural damage, not “clean up.”
you know, when you add up the “prior is a wuss” nonsense with derrek lee saying “cubs fans boo everything” it really is getting kind of embarassing for cubs fans, no?
by billywan on Apr 15, 2008 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From the Cubs website report
During the arthroscopy, Andrews did a debridement of Prior’s right rotator cuff, as well as repair the labral and capsular injuries in his right shoulder.
That’s the most details that I’ve seen – to find anything further we’d probable have to fire off an email to Will Caroll or someone else who knows these things. Debridements are rather ‘routine’ (it’s what Drew Brees had), but I get the vibe that the other injuries mentioned were not.
by berselius on Apr 15, 2008 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
More from WIll Carroll
Found his BP article (not premium content) talking about this. It was definitely required surgery, and it could have been even worse if Prior didn’t have such good mechanics.
by berselius on Apr 15, 2008 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
More Carroll
He answered my Chat question on BP today!
Jeff Haack (Madison): Will – what exactly did happen with Prior? Some of us are having an argument and can’t remember/find enough of the details. I seem to remember that he had some undiagnosed structural damage, while others seem to think that it was just ‘normal wear and tear that everyone pitches through’, thus solidifying the argument that Prior was a wuss. What was the real story?
Will Carroll: He had cuff and labrum tears that were corrected surgically in early 07. They were significant, but not massive. Very comparable, I’m told, to Chris Carpenter in … 01? 02?
by berselius on Apr 15, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suggest you read a little more
The doctors were shocked at the amount of damage when they opened up Prior’s shoulder. Nobody, including Prior, had a clue how injured he really was. To blame Prior for being soft or Dusty Baker for pitching him so much is silly since they didn’t know how badly he was injured. Similarly, it is absurd to blame the Cubs medical staff since the extent of the injury could not be discovered without cutting him open.
by Leon Durham on Apr 15, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
(Carroll points this out in the article). And I admit that I’m just as guilty about jumping the gun with blame here. But still, I think that prior ran into a perfect storm of bad luck, high expectations, and the collective frustration of Cubs fans in the seasons following the 2003 postseason. He deserves better from all of us.
by berselius on Apr 15, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A spun glass shoulder?
Gosh, I think that’d be really cool looking, especially hanging in the kitchen window, catching the sunlight in the late afternoon, shooting the light into the room and playing it off the walls…. Wonderful, Daver.
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, thanks. And that's some dazzling imagery yourself.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's really not that spectacular...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 15, 2008 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why that thing is gorgeous!
The shoulder, I mean.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wins have more to do with run support...
than just a pitcher’s stuff.
Hector Villanueva's Career Stolen Bases: 1
by IowaCubs- on Apr 15, 2008 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
5 years in a row Mark Prior has laid waste on the disabled list while not blinking an eyelash when he cashes in his paycheck.
by MDBNIU on Apr 15, 2008 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you sign a guy to a contract
This is the risk you take. If Johan Santana’s shoulder suddenly explodes, it’s not his fault that the Mets threw all that money at him, he’ll still be earning that money.
I’m not a huge Prior fan myself, but as I say above – I blame the Cubs medical staff for Prior’s problems. If they had caught the ‘correct’ shoulder problem and listened to Prior when he said he was hurt, he could have gotten the surgery years ago. When they did his last surgery and found what they found, it really vindicated Prior in my mind.
by berselius on Apr 15, 2008 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus
It’s not like Kerry Wood, Mr. ‘Heart’, gave back his salary to the Cubs when he was injured either. This is just how business works.
I’m just as disappointed that Prior and Wood didn’t become what we expected them to be. But I don’t blame them…it was just bad luck that was exacerbated by an organization that didn’t do right by them and a rabid media.
by berselius on Apr 15, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Players
should get paid at the end of the season, performance based
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe
The MLB players’ union would beg to differ with that. As would pretty much everyone else who works a salaried job.
by berselius on Apr 15, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like a commission? Percentage of the gate?
... I could see a few Marlins players being against this.
Hector Villanueva's Career Stolen Bases: 1
by IowaCubs- on Apr 15, 2008 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you ever had a shoulder problem....
and tried to do ANYTHING, simple everyday tasks like picking up a drinking glass? You just have no idea just how complicated a joint the shoulder is. It isn’t like a hip, ball and socket. The Cubs medical staff just didn’t catch Prior’s malady and, to make it worse, he tried to pitch through it. Who’s fault? It just isn’t a situation where you can lay blame somewhere. He was, as he said, an employee. He had a contract which is an employment agreement. You just can’t say “whoops, my bad” and say “well, I ain’t gonna pay you cause you’re injured”...I see your posts and think…well, I guess this is not the right venue to say what I think. I will say that you are the most negative person who posts here…....
by crazymountain on Apr 15, 2008 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one is going to be right...
...in this debate, because it is way too complicated.
I played ball for a while and had significant shoulder problems that required several cortizone shots when I was in college (not a very good thing to do). That was in the early 80’s before medical technology could diagnose specific problems, but there was some serious stuff going on in the joint. I made the decision to go ahead and get juiced up with cortisone on several occassions and I played the remaining 3 years of my college career (mostly OF) in pain most of the time. My arm went from good to average and as a 47 year old, I am paying for those shots today.
You are completely correct about shoulder problems. The joint is complex like no other in the body, and really quite fragile. Several years ago, my previous job gave me the privlege of being around some very good sports medicine physicians. I spent a good deal of time with a former trainer of the Cubs and their orthopaedist at the time, and I have also met Dr. Andrews (who did Prior’s surgery) on a few occasions. To a man, most of these guys will tell you, throwing a baseball is the most destructive movement (to a joint) of any athletic endeavour and the shoulder just wasn’t designed to throw with that kind of force.
What I am trying to say is this; no one knows when Prior incurred the actual damage they found in surgery. It may have been there since 03, or it may not have cropped up until last year. It is also possible for diagnostic tests to miss this type of damage, although in Prior’s case, he had so many tests, the extensive damage most likely happened fairly recently.
One last point; these injuries affect players in a very individual way. What I mean is this; there are pitchers (and position players) that have played a good bit of their career with similar damage that was found in Prior’s shoulder. In fact, if you scoped the shoulder of all major league pitchers, you would find a fairly high percentage of damage that would be considered needing repair. Some guys pitch through it, and some can’t.
There is a mental side of this game that has more impact than what most people think. Some players need to feel “just right’ to be effective, while others can be productive without feeling their best. With Prior, I think you have a guy who needs to feel right, or he just can’t be at his best.
As always, just my opinion based on my experiences.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All of our opinions are based on our experiences, MPH and
we have a very similar history. I have, for the last 25 years, had several MRI’s and about twice as many opinions. No two people read the MRI the same way. My point is that shoulders are a very difficult diagnosis. Anyway, now, at 56 and after working through the muck and confusion that is my shoulder, the only agreement is that a replacement is what will “fix” it.
by crazymountain on Apr 15, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On thursday
I will have completed 8.5 months of PT and 50 visits to the PT for a labrum tear and slap repair. Ive starting throwing and its AMAZING. Long road still.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was in Minnesota...
...at a Cubs/Twins Interleague game back in 2006. It was Jacque Jones’ first game back in Minnesota after not re-signing with the Twins. I was impressed, the majority of fans cheered.
Of course, Jones’ exit from Minnesota was a bit different than Patterson’s from Chicago
This game featured an awful Cubs lineup, as did many games that year. It also featured The Employee throwing I think four innings of no-hit ball. I had tremendous hope that he would be back…not so much.
by montanacubby on Apr 15, 2008 11:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Jones..
got a raw deal here with all the booing and throwing stuff. Of course, he could have handled himself a little better too. Minnesota fans are great. That was awsome how they treated Tori Hunter upon his return..
"I lost it in the sun"
by Bump Bailey on Apr 15, 2008 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The comparison of Tori and Jaque to Patterson
is a little like apples to oranges not only because of how they exited. Tori and Jaque were stars for the MN twins (obviously Tori more than Jaque) but Jaque had a number of pretty productive years for the Twins while they were in the playoffs for a few consecutive years. Patterson was productive for the Cubs for about half a season. Regardless, there is no reason to boo either Dusty or Corey.
I was at the 2006 interleague game as well and remember thinking the same, “wow, [the employee] is finally back . . .” oh, well, the hope was fun while it lasted.
"Very adroit in the outfield." - Lou, on Dome
by gwood on Apr 15, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont blame Baker that much
I mean if we would have won the world series in 03 who cares about pitch counts…. The only thing that was indefensible was starting Neifi and Mabry in 06 when we just traded for Nevin and had other options at 2B
"Hey Chicago what do you say the Cubs are gonna win today"
by fischisgod on Apr 15, 2008 11:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
On the subject of Booing
First off, I don’t love booing, but we cheer when someone does something above and beyond their job’s requirements… why can’t we show our dislike at someone failing at their job somewhat miserably. I’m not saying boo for an error. I’m saying that booing when a pitcher gives up a ton of runs without getting an out… yeah, maybe they deserve to hear about it. This is a spectator sport, and there’s no sign saying “Please silence your cell phones and don’t ruin the game for anyone by talking”. I may only boo 1 time every 2-5 games, but when I’m unhappy, I don’t bottle it up.
And in response to those who hate the “type of crowd” that shows up at Cubs games now a days. Please, don’t forget that when we were seating 20-30k a game, we didn’t go out of our way to pay great players money to play here. Now that we’re seating 40k EVERY game… we get a worse crowd, but we get a better team.
Personally, I will deal with the “Frat boys and the tourists”, in order to win.
So here’s the bottom line. Ask yourself this:
Will you deal with rowdy people booing 4-5 times a game, if we get to have Fukudome on our team? Does anyone really have a problem with that?
.... Edit #4: We're gonna go 158 and 4 this year, I can feel it!!!
by Beaushek on Apr 15, 2008 11:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's what irks me.
The way the national media (here we go with the East Coast thing) and some players in general talk about Cubs fans booing. When New York, Boston, or Philly fans do it, they’re passionate. When Cub fans do it, we’re just drunks who know nothing about the game. East Coast fans can be portrayed as being tough and loud and obnoxious, but they are never portrayed as being ignorant drunks. Their booing is all about passion. Again, I don’t want Chicago fans to turn into knee-jerk East Coast boo birds, I’m just saying I resent the fact that we are portrayed as such, when we’re not.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Apr 15, 2008 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome to the Midwest.
Y’know, this IS flyover country to the people on the coasts. Nothing we do could possibly compare to them and their ways of life. It’s almost like we’re a different breed of human around here that lives on nothing but pork chops, potato salad, and jello.
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes us look good
I think you meant that we are supposed to live on pork rinds, cheese, polish sausage, potato chips, and lots and lots of beer.
I don’t buy the east coast bias argument here – it seems to me Philly has the worst repuation for booing people, drinking and fighting. Cue references to the jail under Veterans Stadium, booing Santa Claus, etc….
by berselius on Apr 15, 2008 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you meant that we are supposed to live on pork rinds, cheese, polish sausage, potato chips, and lots and lots of beer.That’s Milwaukee.
HEY-O!
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, I've really got to learn how to block quote correctly.
n/t
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
n/t
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
by Lou In Blue on Apr 15, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I generally get annoyed
those fans who root against the other team, as opposed to rooting for their own team. The Boston fans do it all the time when they play the Yankees and the White Sox fans do it all the time when they play the Cubs. It’s just like booing, it serves no purpose. Root for your own team, there is no need to be insulting to the opposing team/players/fans.
"Very adroit in the outfield." - Lou, on Dome
by gwood on Apr 15, 2008 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
brewers sign jeff weaver?
rumors out there that the brew crew has added a fantast…er, grea….um…two armed pitcher to their squad. brew crew blog seems to think dave bush is done.
by billywan on Apr 15, 2008 11:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
1 thing that MUST happen tonight
is throwing high fastballs to Corey. For once I will see this natural act and laugh.
"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me
by lilkimmer77 on Apr 15, 2008 11:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Dusty
Hey! Let’s debate whether Dusty desttroyed Wood and Prior’s arms. We’ve never discussed that topic on this site!
"Hey hey, kiss it goodbye! That one's in Milwaukee! Man oh man did he hit it. Isn't that something?" - Lou Boudreau, May 17, 1979
by danimal15 on Apr 15, 2008 11:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I meant destroyed
"Hey hey, kiss it goodbye! That one's in Milwaukee! Man oh man did he hit it. Isn't that something?" - Lou Boudreau, May 17, 1979
by danimal15 on Apr 15, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about instead of booing we...
"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me
by lilkimmer77 on Apr 15, 2008 11:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Jinkies!!!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 15, 2008 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boo Birds
I was writing a long post about why I think it’s pointless to boo but I realized that has been done above. The bottom line is Cubs fans boo way to often. DLee seems to be a very rational guy and he says so, so I have to agree. Boo other teams players, bad calls by umps or a lack of hustle but what does booing our own players/managers past or present accomplish?
Lets do it Cubbies
by slocs55 on Apr 15, 2008 11:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well
I dont boo, I prefer to listen to the overall feel of the crowd. But if the players have a problem with it, they can just go to bed with their overvalued salaries and get over it.
Ill be in 415 row 1 tonight, giddy up
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DLee
With most players I would agree but with DLee saying that is almost embarassing. Plus with what the Cubs are paying other guys on the team I look at Lee’s contract as a bargain. Crazy to say $60 million is a bargain but it’s true.
And I will giddy up, but in the bleachers tonight. Will be nice to be able to ride the bike to the ballpark in decent weather.
Lets do it Cubbies
by slocs55 on Apr 15, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very nice
Ill be walking there tonight and tomorrow. Thats the great thing about living down the block, got tix this morning at 8.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awww, man. Don't rub it in! :-)
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Walking to the game myself tonight...
Hammer, I think you and I live about two blocks apart. We’ll have to meet up once this season for a few celebratory beers…
by Tangled Up In Blue on Apr 15, 2008 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice
Sounds fair. I am about the 4th house before Byron on Kenmore——through the stop sign on Grace.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm the third building in...
...from the Waveland/Racine corner. Right behind Trace, and Yak-Zee’s. What’s your bar of choice during the season? After games we usually hit up Trace. It’s usually not as packed and no lines.
Good to know some people from the neighborhood are on the board.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Apr 15, 2008 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I am usually against going to the bars post-game, unless of course I was doing some beer drinking AT the game. I just cant stand being the sober guy amongst millions.
YakZees in a nice place to go and eat once in a while when there isnt a game. My favorite restaurant is Uncommon Ground.
BTW, my walk from the door to the outfield wall is 3 minutes 41 seconds YESI TIMED IT.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uncommon Ground
I hear they have good folk music there…
"I lost it in the sun"
by Bump Bailey on Apr 15, 2008 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didnt hear that
They make homemade bloody mary mix which is awesome. You got to get over there the food is amazing.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah..
The late great Jeff Buckley played there once. Greg Kot of the Tribune called it the best concert he ever attended. They have a Buckley tribute show every November with artists from all around the world playing….
Will def try the bloody marys.
"I lost it in the sun"
by Bump Bailey on Apr 15, 2008 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The late great Jeff Buckley no doubt.
I saw him at the Metro, the one on DVD and that was one of the most amazing shows I’ve ever attended.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too cool..
Haven’t seen that, but it’s on my must see list now…
"I lost it in the sun"
by Bump Bailey on Apr 15, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you like Buckley, yes it's a must see
Grab your girl, some fine wine turn the lights way down and you won’t be disappointed.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HOLY CRAP YOU WERE AT THAT GIG?!?!
Oh my God. I am so envious.
I went to the tribute at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame a few years ago. We got to hear the legacy edition of Live at Sin-É a month before it was released. It was so eerie to listen to it in this little theatre with an empty stage.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. -- Dave Barry
by bluebythebook on Apr 15, 2008 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I waited tables
there long ago. Always had great music. Surprised they’re still there, but I’m glad. Great location, too.
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They can
give us a winner – and by that I mean a World Series winner – before they begin even suggesting that Cub fans should be more patient, more understanding, or nicer. The money they make notwithstanding, we boo because we’ve seen it all before, some of us for several decades. Plenty of us have buried our loved ones, fans all, who never got a chance to really cheer, to feel what that’s like. We boo because we want our team, the team we love and care about, to know that it is time. It is our turn, and we will not accept anything less. Ever.
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understand
We all have family and friends who never saw the Cubs win anything, but to hold the current players accountable for 100 years of of not winning it all doesn’t make sense either.
I’m done with the booing issue for the day, I just think Cubs fans boo to quickly, that’s all.
Lets do it Cubbies
by slocs55 on Apr 15, 2008 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't boo Dusty
I didn’t think he always made the best decisions, but no manager in my lifetime got the Cubs closer to the World Series, and he deserves some credit for that.
"Hey hey, kiss it goodbye! That one's in Milwaukee! Man oh man did he hit it. Isn't that something?" - Lou Boudreau, May 17, 1979
by danimal15 on Apr 15, 2008 11:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Clogged Bases
I know Dusty received a lot of heat for his clogging the basis comment, so I find it interestin that in this young season the Reds are leading all of baseball in walks.
by NashvilleBlue on Apr 15, 2008 11:58 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Must be frustrating the heck out of Dusty too.
Give him a month to fix that.
by Archie on Apr 15, 2008 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn
will be getting the hit and run sign soon enough
by dr stabbingworth on Apr 15, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHO CARES, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE GAME
Anyone know how Harang has been throwing the ball in this prepubescent season? He’s always tough
"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me
by lilkimmer77 on Apr 15, 2008 12:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Harang is Harang.
He’s started three games, is 1-1, and is showing off a “line” of 2.14/.90/.187 (ERA, WHIP, BAA). I never look forward to seeing this guy pitch against the Cubs.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harang - Tough Pitcher
SPLITS
GS 3
IP 21.0
H 14
R 6
HR 2
BB 5
SO 15
W 1
L 1
WHIP 0.90
BAA .187
ERA 2.14
by Archie on Apr 15, 2008 12:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Dempster will have to be on tonight
I don’t think he can duplicate his performances throughout the season, but if Demps can go 7 and give up less then 3 I think we should be good tonight.
Prediciton: 4-3 Cubs. In 18 innings. Natch.
They call me MISTER Fukudome!
by brokenland on Apr 15, 2008 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
18 innings
If the game is 18 innings long, I will throw up. I would enjoy getting some sleep tonight, and I can never go to bed when the Cubs are still playing.
by rambler19 on Apr 15, 2008 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
I honestly think it will go a quick 9. 2-1, 2:35 time of game. That is if Harang and Dempster can pitch like they have been. Give our bullpen an extra day of rest. Please.
They call me MISTER Fukudome!
by brokenland on Apr 15, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marriottis article
What annoys me about it and many other TV people and reporters——they keep saying Dusty was fired. HE WAS NOT FIRED….....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 12:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Stone
complained about the same thing on the Score. Everyone assumes he was fired but that is not true.
by dr stabbingworth on Apr 15, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait Stoney agrees?
I take it back.
Honestly, I dont like Baker, but he wasnt fired its ridiculous.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
bad use of pronouns
Stone complained that people think he (Stone) was fired. I don’t think he has much to say about Baker.
by dr stabbingworth on Apr 15, 2008 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correy Patterson?
Why, if I were there tonight, would applaud enthusiastically that he no longer wears a Cubs uniform, and probably will in fact fatten Dempsters K count should he play tonight.
by JFCubFan on Apr 15, 2008 12:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Dusty is a GOOD manager...
He went to the World series in 02 was outs away in 03 & for whatever reason, injuries, lack of a team leader the Cubs regressed it didn’t happen. It’s not like he forgot how to manage in the last few years. Give the guy a break
~md
by Cali2Chi on Apr 15, 2008 12:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Its his defense to questions
and refusal to change.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why does Dusty have to change?
Let it go. Dusty doesn’t work here anymore. Besides, the overwhelming majority of baseball players and coaches around the league think the world of Dusty and his managerial ability. He must be doing something right to have carved out a 15 year and counting career as a manager on top of a very fine 19 year playing career.
Dusty has already been vindicated in Chicago. He didn’t blow out any pitching arms (backed up by Kerry Wood) and he didn’t screw over the youngsters (because Hendry supplied him with craptastic prospects).
by MDBNIU on Apr 15, 2008 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let it go?
I wrote 7 words you wrote a paragraph….maybe you should let it go. I have.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As long as he has a good team.
Kinda like Phil Jackson and many other “great” coaches.
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's funny that you mention Phil
when my brother and I talk about Phil we use the term manager. Not coach. I think he has a wonderful ability to get the best out of good people and to get people to gel, but I don’t know if he necessarily has the ability to take a young team and make them contenders.
---AC 00 00 00 - Believe
by mjk83 on Apr 15, 2008 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
how I’ve felt about him, too. I’m not saying he sucks, of course. But it’s tough to determine what makes a good manager when you have some that are better at taking a crap team and molding them into winners while others, like Jackson, can best manage large egos, making room for the talent to shine. Interesting topic really.
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
very true
Phil Jackson probably wouldn’t be very good with the current Bulls team. (I’m not sure who would be but that’s besides the point) At the same time, a guy like Scott Skiles or Larry Brown would have been terrible for 95-98 Bulls teams. They would have absolutely freaked out about Rodman and it would have been a problem like when he was with san antonio before he came here.
---AC 00 00 00 - Believe
by mjk83 on Apr 15, 2008 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Measuring the value of a manager...
...is one of the utlimate questions in baseball, that really can’t be answered definatively either way.
One thing that I think is clearer in all sports today, is that players don’t seem to respond in a positive way to either extreem – being a complete ball-buster, or being a total players manager. If you push guys too hard, you eventually lose the team. If you give them too much leeway, the players will eventually take liberties and fall asleep at the wheel. No good manager has won championships without having good players, but there has been average managers that have won with great players.
I like Piniella because I think he has learned to pick his spots to deliver a message vs maybe going off more on guys 15 years ago and he reads players capabilities very quickly.
The key to any team having long term success though, is really on the front office. If you are drafting, scouting and developing players well, it makes things a heck of a lot easier. If I had the choice between having a great GM/average manager, or a great manger/average GM, I take the first scenerio everytime.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
So then maybe when everyone’s booing, we’re really booing the front office, the organization, not so much the current player on the field doing poorly. It doesn’t quite work that way, I know, but how else to adequately voice our displeasure over a bad team/player/roster/year/etc?
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't have an answer for you....
...I was only giving my personal opinion on the importance of the front office, and my view on managerial styles.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine
I’m agreeing with you here. I’m just connecting it with main discussion this afternoon and asking, “So then how?” I think you may have hit on the problem/issue that nobody has mentioned today about all this to boo or not to boo jazz: if the front office is truly the important aspect of a team and the team does poorly or is simply a bad team, then isn’t booing acceptable? And if it isn’t, then how do let the “team” know that you as a fan are displeased and demand action? If it is, does it make sense to boo the product on the field and not the suites where the suits live? It’s a very good point. I was simply asking further questions about it.
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought the original question...
...was whether to boo Dusty, not the Cubs.
What I don’t agree with, are those who blame Dusty for everything from the Cubs failures to global warming. To me, that is completely short-sighted and way off base as to why the Cubs have not been able to sustain a winning team for long enouph to win a championship.
If the Cubs are playing like crap, I have no problem with people booing. When Ramirez or Soriano don’t hustle, people should boo, when someone gets thrown out trying to steal third with 1 out or less, people should boo, etc. etc.
When you boo poor play on the field, you are also booing the front office because they put the team together. For what people pay to watch the games, they should expect a product that is well put together and gives 100% effort.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't clear.
Again, you’re right. But a lot of people have taken the whole “don’t boo Dusty” mantra to another level, suggesting that you shouldn’t boo your team/players except in very specific circumstances. And that’s what I disagree with. We pay to watch these guys play. They play for us. If they don’t perform, if the front office doesn’t put a good product out there, then by all means, let the boos fly.
I’m indifferent about Dusty I suppose, though I don’t believe he is completely innocent either. I would not want him back for anything.
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear ya...
...and I agree there is nothing wrong with booing either a lack of effort, or the inability of the front office to make the right decisions.
I wouldn’t hire Dusty either, but I completely disagree with those who want to expand all their energy on the likes of Baker or Bartman. They are simply missing the big picture, and focusing on a symptom, rather than the cause.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Focusing
on the symptom rather than the cause”. Very interesting way of putting it, MPH, for I see that as a problem of our society at large as well. Whenever something goes wrong, only the symptoms are addressed, never the cause, because that’d too often take sacrifice, understanding, or some other more complex problem-solving beyond simply shouting/hating, etc. I totally agree with you. And blaming Bartman and that whole fiasco is realy off base. He had pretty much nothing to do with anything, ever.
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Loud Sustained Ovation?
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No! London Symphony Orchestra, of course!
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HA
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there's other guys on our team
we should be more critical of right now rather than wasting all our energy on a lost cause. But I’m glad the consensus seems to be indifference to their return. Let’s just hope that translates into tonight.
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry
by Jayo525 on Apr 15, 2008 1:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I dont care if they boo
or if Corey hits 2 homers, all I want is the W
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boo
I personally wouldn’t neccessarily waste my breath jeering, but you gotta pay the band when you dance with Mr. Bones. It ain’t like Dusty is a little league coach who volunteers his Saturday afternoons…he made plenty o’ green to make those crappy decisions.
"They say the big possums come out late." H. Caray
by Don Gerard on Apr 15, 2008 1:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Why are you guys talking about her anyway?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 15, 2008 1:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm watching you Wazowski
Alwaysssss watching
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry
by Jayo525 on Apr 15, 2008 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aaron Harang
Harang is a very underrated pitcher in this league. He’s a cross between Rick Reuschel and Greg Maddux.
If I was Lou Piniella I’d sit Alfonso Soriano for this game. Harang will have him flailing away. With Dempster on the mound for us I’m guessing this will be a low scoring affair.
by MDBNIU on Apr 15, 2008 1:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Batters against Harang
Batter Avg OPS HR RBI SO BB
Soriano .200 (3-15) .467 0 0 3 0
Lee .343 (12-35) 1.138 4 8 4 3
Ramirez .267 (8-30) .857 3 4 2 1
Theriot .250 (4-16) .544 0 2 5 1
Cedeno .154 (2-13) .538 1 1 6 0
DeRosa .333 (3-9) .872 0 1 1 3
Soto .750 (3-4) 2.000 0 1 1 0
Pie .500 (2-4) 1.000 0 1 2 0
by Archie on Apr 15, 2008 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing spectacular in the way of averages
but this lineup has gotten 8 HR’s off him, which isn’t bad and I thought I read where someone said that there could be a strong wind blowing out tonight?
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sheesh..wind gusting to 35 mph tonight.
If Harang wasn’t pitching, I’d bet the over
Wood for closer.
by wicubfan on Apr 15, 2008 1:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Looks like the wind...
...will be from the South.
Medium flyballs will have a good chance of leaving the yard tonight. Lay off the low ones, and look for pitches up in the zone.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and here's where I read it
Cubs have gotten the occasional long ball off Harang so that could be a key in tonights game.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tonight will be an example...
...of how disciplined the Cub’s hitters can be.
With these conditions, all they should be hearing from the time they get to the park, is to lay off the low stuff. Harang is going to be trying to keep everything at the knees or lower, hoping for ground balls. If they can wait him out, and force him to get the ball up, they can do some serious damage.
Of course, the Reds will be trying the same against Dempster. Let’s see which pitcher can hit their spots, and which hitters wait for that one decent pitch they can drive.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why not just
cheer for our team. Cheer when we take the field, cheer when we get men on base, cheer when we get a homerun, cheer a great defensive play by our team and by all means cheer when their team makes an error or strikes out. :-)
by sue369 on Apr 15, 2008 2:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Simple enough!
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is this "cheer" you speak of?
I know of the “boo.” I know of the “whine.” I know of the “hate.” But I do not know of the “cheer.” Please help me understand.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bears schedule announced.
What’s interesting besides they play 3 home games in a row, twice (play 3 road games in a row as well) is that they have 5 Nationally televised games (meaning Thursday Night, Sunday Night and Monday Night) which is the most a team can have during the season.
September
DAY
DATE
OPPONENT
TIME (CT)
Sun.
7
@ Colts
7:15 PM
Sun.
14
@ Panthers
12:00 PM
Sun.
21
BUCCANEERS
12:00 PM
Sun.
28
EAGLES
7:15 PM
October
DAY
DATE
OPPONENT
TIME (CT)
Sun.
5
@ Lions
12:00 PM
Sun.
12
@ Falcons
12:00 PM
Sun.
19
VIKINGS
12:00 PM
November
DAY
DATE
OPPONENT
TIME (CT)
Sun.
2
LIONS
12:00 PM
Sun.
9
TITANS
12:00 PM
Sun.
16
@ Packers
12:00 PM
Sun.
23
@ Rams
12:00 PM
Sun.
30
@ Vikings
7:15 PM
December
DAY
DATE
OPPONENT
TIME (CT)
Sun.
7
JAGUARS
12:00 PM
Thu.
11
SAINTS
7:15 PM
Mon.
22
PACKERS
7:30 PM
*Sun.
28
@ Texans
12:00 PM
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 2:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Or is it 6 National games for each team?
Not positive.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember, the networks can re-work some of the
late season prime time stuff to get better matchups.
by N Oakley on Apr 15, 2008 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not Monday Night games they can't
My point is that…..Let’s look at the 5 “tentatively” scheduled National games for the Bears as of right now:
Week 1 Sunday Night….Obviously not going to be changed. There’s 1 National game.
Week 4 Sunday Night Vs the Eagles. I don’t see that game being changed either. Too early in the season. Barring both teams lay goose eggs anyway. That’s 2 National games.
Week 13 @ Vikings….This one could be changed, but with the rivalry and the fact that APeterson and there’s a good chance both teams will be playing for a playoff spot, not likely to be moved. That’s 3 National games
Week 15 Vs Saints Thursday Night game….Can’t be moved. That’s 4 National games.
Week 16 Vs. Packers Monday Night game….Can’t be moved. That’s 5 National games.
So that’s my point, if indeed the rule is 5 National games per team, then this Schedule is pretty much set and the Bears won’t be up for any other “flex” games during the season.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dont forget guys
5 months from now football starts. Make sure you open Outlook and mark your calenders
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you weren't half in the bag already
You’d realize the relevence of me posting the Bears schedule is that it got released today. Now go head on down to Murphy’s and go be be a jackass to someone in real life.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 15, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HA HA Santoswoodenlegs
Where does she get those Wonderful Toys?
I'm kind of a big deal
by chi-townbleacherbum on Apr 15, 2008 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knock off the namecalling, please.
n/t
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I avoid Cub bars during Cub games usually
But thanks.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ESPN
Only ESPN would have a 1 or 2 hour special on the release of the NFL schedule over 4 months before the first game. I’m as excited as anyone to see who the Bears are playing but my God they over hype every aspect of every major sport to the point where the actual event rarely lives up to their hype.
Back to baseball…
Lets do it Cubbies
by slocs55 on Apr 15, 2008 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BOOOOOOO...
ESPN..
"I lost it in the sun"
by Bump Bailey on Apr 15, 2008 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wrong blog
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't you have a wrigleyville parade to attend to?
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you tell me what that means ill let you know
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dont you have a Bears blog to attend?
WHO CARES
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll make sure I check with you the next time ...
.....I post something to make sure it’s ok with you. Sound good?
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sounds fair
thanks.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really though whats a wrigleyville parade?
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah I am quite curious
i wanna know what it is too..
2008 Cubs: Why Beat A Team in Regulation, when you can beat them in extras?
by Chanman25 on Apr 15, 2008 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you know.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I knew you were referring to that
So since I write “wrong blog” instantly that means Im a homsexual. Why dont you move to Philly where gay slurs and racism is socially acceptable….?
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I double checked and...
....nope, no racial or gay slurs anywhere.
You’re the only who seemed to have a problem with my post about the Bears and apparently now you’re the moderator of this board and deem what is and isn’t acceptable for this board.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Using that picture is an insult
to many people, including friends of mine. You not what you were inferring…..
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Besides the obvious,
it’s wrong, too. Everyone knows Wrigleyville isn’t Boy’s Town.
"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Apr 15, 2008 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that picture is an insult...
I take it the entire parade is too?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 15, 2008 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's not.
The photo is inappropriate. I have warned you a number of times about crossing the line. You crossed it. Let’s end this thread RIGHT NOW before it gets out of hand.
Thank you.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um...I didn't post that picture...
just sayin’
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 15, 2008 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right, you didn't.
Sorry.
Let’s still stop here.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stopping.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 15, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure how that picture is an insult
It’s a picture from a public parade where gays and lesbians show their pride in their sexuality. It’s actually quite a liberating picture if you ask me.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said...
... whether that’s true or not, let’s stop right here.
Thank you.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Deal.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, even a redneck like me
can put your post of that photo into context. If you want to call someone something, just do it!
by crazymountain on Apr 15, 2008 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd boo him personally
and Corey..
2008 Cubs: Why Beat A Team in Regulation, when you can beat them in extras?
by Chanman25 on Apr 15, 2008 3:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
take that back
I’d only boo Baker. Corey like many others, were misused completely. Corey was never a leadoff hitter and Hawkins was never suppose to be a closer
2008 Cubs: Why Beat A Team in Regulation, when you can beat them in extras?
by Chanman25 on Apr 15, 2008 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hi Cub fans, this is your online conscience speaking....
It wouldn’t be called Home Field Advantage if every player on the field was cheered fairly and equally. And the notion that former players or coaches should be treated like our own is rather ridiculous. If you are playing for an opposing team, you are therefore the enemy and are fair game plain and simple. It’s a competition, not a welcome wagon. Do I wish horrible things to happen to Dusty or Corey? No, of course not. But when they step onto the field in their Reds uniforms, they are just members of the opposition. Whatever the fans decide to do is their choice, they paid for the right to participate, or not participate. Patterson should prepare for the worst and hope for the best IMO. He is the “professional” out there tonight, not the fans. Personally, I hope he has a major mental collapse and costs his team the game somehow because the only thing I care about is a CUBS WIN and not how favorably he is treated. Hell, if I had to list 50 things I am worried about tonight, how he is treated by the fans would 51st on my list. As for Dusty, I hope he gets out managed by Lou for all of the above reasons.
I'm kind of a big deal
by chi-townbleacherbum on Apr 15, 2008 3:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
well I can tell you a guy who says you can go home
2008 Cubs: Why Beat A Team in Regulation, when you can beat them in extras?
by Chanman25 on Apr 15, 2008 3:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
...and stay there.
"They say the big possums come out late." H. Caray
by Don Gerard on Apr 15, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget that Corey The Employee's Brother...
... is in the Cubs organization. It would be in poor taste to boo him, then cheer his brother in a few months.
Hector Villanueva's Career Stolen Bases: 1
by IowaCubs- on Apr 15, 2008 3:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Why?
They’re two different players.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um... actually... they're pretty much the same.
Cubs 2008 (7-5)
Home (3-3) | Road (4-2) | 1-Run Games (2-2) | Extra Innings (3-1)
Updated on April 13, 2008
by SackMan on Apr 15, 2008 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now not at all
one plays the OF one plays both, one has decent plate discpline one doesnt.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"no not at all"
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rooting for members of the same family or your fav. team.... Hmmmm Tough One
Wait, no it’s not. If Eric’s attitude toward this organization is rattled by how his brother is treated by the fans, then perhaps he should choose a new profession. I think he has enough intelligence to know that he is damn lucky to be in our organization.
I'm kind of a big deal
by chi-townbleacherbum on Apr 15, 2008 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone else ever wonder?
How much money that have earned at work posting on this site?
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Apr 15, 2008 3:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
will Darren
be in attendance tonight?
2008 Cubs: Why Beat A Team in Regulation, when you can beat them in extras?
by Chanman25 on Apr 15, 2008 3:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Doubt it. He’s probably in school in Sacramento (where the Bakers live in the offseason).
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 15, 2008 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I heard...
...he is being flown in to attend the post-game press conference.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only if the going gets rough for Dusty...so he will be in Cincy in early September...
Felix Pie must play everyday!
by JB 23 on Apr 15, 2008 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are all wrong....
he was just at my front door wondering if he was going to Cincy, SF or Chicago…...
by crazymountain on Apr 15, 2008 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I heard....
He is going to be the Reds bat boy and run out onto the field and almost get run over by a player at the plate. Oh wait, he already did that. Sorry.
I'm kind of a big deal
by chi-townbleacherbum on Apr 15, 2008 3:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
OT: Kids at Wrigley
Anyone know at what age you need to by a ticket for a child to get into the ball park?
(sorry for the off-topic question, but I didn’t want to start a fan post over something so small)
Stats spelled backwards is statS!
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 15, 2008 4:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
well Darren Baker was 11
and he got in for free!
2008 Cubs: Why Beat A Team in Regulation, when you can beat them in extras?
by Chanman25 on Apr 15, 2008 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL nice
Stats spelled backwards is statS!
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 15, 2008 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
from cubs.com
Babies/Toddlers Tickets: Fans age 2 and under may be admitted to Cubs games without an admission ticket. However, they must sit in the lap of an accompanying adult.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. -- Dave Barry
by bluebythebook on Apr 15, 2008 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks… exactly what i needed
Stats spelled backwards is statS!
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 15, 2008 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al
this blog is getting toooo good. if you dont keep up with a thread or diary it gets to longggggg. takes hours to read all of the new comments after work. good problem to have buttttt i need to call 1-800_addictedtobcb.
Go Cubbies Go!!!!!!
by cubsluver22 on Apr 15, 2008 4:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Game thread
is located here, in case anyone can’t find it.
"Is there anything he can't do?" ~Len Kasper, 4/5/08, on Kosuke Fukudome
by JohnM on Apr 15, 2008 5:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, it's not showing up on the home page.
Weeeird.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. -- Dave Barry
by bluebythebook on Apr 15, 2008 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On one level I totally agree with Al's sentiments....
on Baker, i.e., I don’t care about it anymore. I am indifferent to his return. The thing that bothers me now is the plea not to boo the guy. Who cares? The pleas not to boo him are an invitation, but more than that they indicate how Dusty never was suited for this job….If a person can’t take it then they don’t belong here.
For the record, it wasn’t all Dusty’s fault and he wasn’t absolved of all responsibility either, just like every other manager in baseball. It doesn’t bother me at all when fans boo, and it wouldn’t bother me if they cheered him. Do what you feel like doing just keep it clean.
by DudeVf11 on Apr 15, 2008 8:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Booing Baker
I’m watching the game from Bloomington Indiana tonight, and I don’t get comcast Sports Net so I am forced to watch the game on Fox Sports Net Ohio and listen to the Red’s announcer Tom Brennaman. I was never a huge Dusty Baker fan, but I was really hoping the fans at the park tonight wouldn’t react the way they did to his return. It was embarrassing to hear Brenneman refer to Cubs fans as “angry” and “bitter”. Dusty probably could have done a better job as manager, but he was always a good person and you can tell from reading interviews that he gained the respect of all the Cubs players he managed. I think a lot of fans need to think a lot harder before they boo a person every time he sets foot on the field. We’re not Yankee fans are we?
by cubs_am08 on Apr 15, 2008 9:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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