Can You Go Home Again?
Longtime readers of this site will remember that I was a defender of Dusty Baker long past the time when it was reasonable to do so. In retrospect, that was a big mistake, and I acknowledge all of Dusty's failures with the Cubs -- and we don't have to rehash them here. Baker was a success with the Cubs up until a certain fateful inning in 2003. After that, the litany of mistakes is huge.
Again, this post isn't meant to recap, but to look forward to tonight, when we will see the return of Baker as manager of the Cincinnati Reds; it will be his first visit to Wrigley Field as a former Cub manager
This is a very rare event. Here is the complete list of Cub managers (besides Baker) who held another managing job after they left the team (years they managed the Cubs in parentheses):
- Bob Ferguson (1878); managed several other teams from 1879-1887
- Tom Loftus (1900-01); managed Washington Senators in 1902 and 1903
- John Evers (1913 and 1921); managed Chicago White Sox in 1924
- Fred Mitchell (1917-20); managed Boston Braves from 1921-23
- Bill Killefer (1921-1925); managed St. Louis Browns from 1930-1933
- George Gibson (26 games in 1925, after Killefer); managed Pittsburgh Pirates from 1932-34
- Joe McCarthy (1926-30); managed New York Yankees from 1931-46 and Boston Red Sox from 1948-50
- Rogers Hornsby (1930-1932); managed Browns from 1933-37 and 1952 and Cincinnati Reds in 1952 and 1953
- Bob Scheffing (1957-59); managed Detroit Tigers from 1961-63
- Harry Craft (16 games in 1961); managed Houston Colt 45's from 1962-64
- Bob Kennedy (1963-65); managed Oakland A's in 1968
- Leo Durocher (1966-72); managed Houston Astros in 1972 and 1973
- Jim Marshall (1974-76); managed Oakland A's in 1979
- Lee Elia (1982-83); managed Philadelphia Phillies in 1987 and 1988
- Jim Lefebvre (1992-93); managed Milwaukee Brewers for the last 49 games of 1999
That's not a very inspiring list -- only McCarthy had success after he left the Cubs (and the Cubs probably should never have let him go), and over the last 50 years, the only former Cub managers to have returned to Wrigley Field in the opposition dugout are Durocher, who as an Astros manager seemed bored and out of it (though he did manage Houston to their second winning season, 82-80 in 1973), Elia with the Phillies, and for one series as interim manager of the Brewers in late 1999, Lefebvre. Even before that, only Mitchell, Gibson and Craft (whose Cub tenures were brief and forgettable), and Hornsby came to Wrigley Field as visiting managers.
So we are witness, this week, to something that's happened rarely in Cub history. Will I boo? Probably not. Indifference, in my opinion, is the best reaction. Jay Mariotti, who I often criticize here, has it exactly right today:
This is a man who never quit as much as he never fit in. Baker should have done more homework about Cubdom and its indigenous demons and frustrations before he quickly grabbed general manager Jim Hendry's offer late in 2002, when he was looking for work after the Giants lost the World Series and didn't want him back. Actually, Hendry should have done more homework on Baker, too, instead of falling in love with the marquee name.
I'm more interested in seeing the reaction to former Cub prodigy Corey Patterson, also returning to Wrigley Field for the first time since being unceremoniously dumped (for minor leaguers Carlos Perez and Nate Spears, neither of whom is likely to ever wear a major league uniform) at the end of his horrid 2005 season.
It'll be an interesting night. Most importantly, the Cubs are looking to start winning home series. I'll have a game thread up later this afternoon.
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Let's please not boo him...
He was an overrated manager with a nack for killing young arms (and playoff hopes), but I hope fans welcome him with a respectful indifference.
Hector Villanueva's Career Stolen Bases: 1
by IowaCubs- on Apr 15, 2008 8:46 AM CDT 0 recs
I'm much more...
...interested in Patterson as well. I see he has hit for some power and hasn’t struck out much this year, but he still looks like he is getting him self out on bad pitches with his weak OBP.
No one should know how to pitch this guy better than the Cubs, and I can’t wait to see if Cub pitchers are able to expose his weaknesses.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 8:49 AM CDT 0 recs
Don't boo...
We have enough on this team to cheer about that we don’t need to waste our time booing Dusty and Corey.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on Apr 15, 2008 8:50 AM CDT 0 recs
I agree
there is no need to boo or make them feel crappy. Let’s just hope they do not succeed tonight!
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 15, 2008 8:54 AM CDT 0 recs
Great post Al
I hadn’t realized the small list of former Cub Managers that returned to Wrigley Managing for another club. Only 2 in my lifetime.
I did purchase a ticket to tonight’s game, nor will I be attending, but I agree with you and that if I was there, I wouldn’t boo him and I wouldn’t applaud him. I don’t think he deserves to be booed. Was he the greatest Manager? Heck no, but he was a good man and everything he did, was what he thought was in the best interest of the Cubs.
Patterson doesn’t deserve to be booed either. It wasn’t his fault that the Cubs and Cub fans overhyped him and compared him to Lou Brock before his first strike out at Wrigley. He was bad but he didn’t do anything that deserves to get booed for. It’s so silly and petty IMO to boo ex players or Managers. It show’s that you haven’t gotten over it by booing someone.
I just hope the majority of Cub fans will show some class tonight and not boo. Let’s move on.
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on Apr 15, 2008 8:56 AM CDT 0 recs
EDIT: I did NOT purchase a ticket....etcetera etcetera etcetera
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on
Apr 15, 2008 8:57 AM CDT
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Well, I'd assume if you didn't buy a ticket...
...you wouldn’t be attending. Or do you know of an effective way to sneak in that you’d care to share with the rest of us? Something to do with the new drainage system perhaps?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on
Apr 15, 2008 9:01 AM CDT
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LOL Daver
Guess I stated the obvious there. Although I have snuck into Wrigley once before. Well kind of. One time when I did purchase a ticket, when I was a much broker man at the age of 21 and after hitting Murphy’s and only $15 in my pocket, I noticed I lost my ticket. I was with a group of 8 friends and let’s just say, I was also much quicker then too.
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on
Apr 15, 2008 9:21 AM CDT
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Ah, the old "blend in with the crowd" trick. I may have to give that a try sometime.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on
Apr 15, 2008 9:27 AM CDT
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Not many successes there.
I guess that excpet for about 4 guys in the list, managing the Cubs to a losing season could be considered a career-ending move.
by Fraggin Judge on
Apr 15, 2008 9:12 AM CDT
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From an out of towner
I know that many of you who attend games regularly feel that you have the “right” to boo. Just please know that your actions represent not just you individually but, literally, millions of cubs fans across the nation.
As much as I hope “we” will be classy tonight, my fear of being embarrassed by a few will probably lead me to not watch or listen until after Patterson’s first at bat.
by TC Cubby on Apr 15, 2008 8:56 AM CDT 0 recs
Well said
I agree with you that especially since it’s a drunk game I mean Night game, the majority will boo and taunt Corey just because they’re liquored up and think it’s funny and amusing and won’t think twice about how it effects the image of Cub fans. It’s certainly never stopped them before.
" I want to point something out in the quickly-becoming-tiresome Old Media vs. Bloggers debate: most stuff sucks. All stuff. In all forms. Most books suck. Most movies suck. Most magazines suck. Most trees likely suck if you get to know them. Fish, bugs, various metals -- they all probably mostly suck". - FJM 4/6/8
by lemon20pie on
Apr 15, 2008 9:00 AM CDT
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This is how I felt...
...watching the opening day game on TV while crabby Cubs fans booed Wood…embarrassed.
Hector Villanueva's Career Stolen Bases: 1
by IowaCubs- on
Apr 15, 2008 9:02 AM CDT
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Yeah, me too
Doesn’t it seem that there are more than a few fans who think we should go 162 – 0 because of the hundred years?
by crazymountain on
Apr 15, 2008 9:52 AM CDT
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Relax.
Fans boo in every sports venue in the country. I do not feel “embarrassed” by the idiots who’ll boo Dusty or Corey tonight. I just feel sorry for them but I refuse to give them any free publicity or heightened importance. They’re just part of the fans in attendance.
by Fraggin Judge on
Apr 15, 2008 9:08 AM CDT
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Really?
Sox fans shouldn’t be embarrassed by the Ligue’s? Illini fans shouldn’t be embarrassed by the harrassment directed towards Eric Gordon and his family? Detroit Pistons fans shouldn’t be embarrassed by the riot in the palace?
Understand, I’m not saying that you are personally responsible for the actions of another fan. For that reason I don’t ridicule Sox fans for the Ligue incident. However, isn’t there a part of you that says “We are better than this”?
by TC Cubby on
Apr 15, 2008 9:13 AM CDT
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The Ligue incident...
.... is in no way comparable to booing someone.
Not defending the booing necessarily, but these are not the same thing at all.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Apr 15, 2008 9:16 AM CDT
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My point was
to respond to the assertion that we should not be embarrassed if attendees do boo, ie, that conduct from other fans doesn’t relate to us. I thought that was Fraggin Judge’s point; however, on reading his post below, I see now what he means.
by TC Cubby on
Apr 15, 2008 9:38 AM CDT
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We are better than that.
That’s why I don’t think much about those who boo. I refuse to give them any importance. Boo if they want to. Everyone can choose to make a ridicule in public.
I don’t think a riot in a game or harrassment of a player or executive is in the same category. Booing is just the ugly antithesis of cheering. It’s even needed sometimes, but not tonight against Dusty or Corey.
by Fraggin Judge on
Apr 15, 2008 9:20 AM CDT
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Didn't Ligue
Spend the day at Wrigley for the Cubs game before going to the Sox game? Or was that another idiot?
"To know that I know what I know, and that I do not know what I do not know. That is true knowledge" - Confucious as quoted in Walden
by toaster on
Apr 15, 2008 12:52 PM CDT
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That was the other idiot...
Can’t remember his name.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Apr 15, 2008 12:54 PM CDT
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Unfortunately....
they will both get booed by some. This is usually due to people that are not every day fans that remember the names and now boo them because they are on a different team. I was at the Twins home opener this year where there were a lot of boos for Torii Hunter. I personally am not a “booer” of players because when they are 0-32 they know better than anyone that they are not doing well. I am also not a “booer” of former players/managers because the past is the past. I do recall Mark Grace’s return to Wrigley and I did hear a few boos come out.
My question is if Bako plays will he get booed?
by 1060 W Addison on
Apr 15, 2008 5:11 PM CDT
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And let's not forget the other former Cubs.
Let’s hope Bako doesn’t haunt us in this series like Jason Kendall did in the opening Brewers series.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 15, 2008 9:15 AM CDT 0 recs
Was listening to a Reds radio program...
on a biz trip to Cincy 2 weeks ago. The radio host actually said “I know all about Javier Valentin, but I REALLY like Paul Bako.”
I thought for a minute he was talking about the Louisville Bats.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on
Apr 15, 2008 9:17 AM CDT
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Heh.
Thats funny. On that same level, last year I saw Jose Hernandez (middle initial might be K) hit a walkoff home run for the Indianapolis Indians (Pit AAA) last year against the Bats.
"Sometimes an intelligent man is forced to be drunk in order to spend time with fools." -Hemmingway
by IndyDiehard on
Apr 15, 2008 10:34 AM CDT
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Merker
If anybody should be booed it’s him, especially for being a dick to Stoney.
by dr stabbingworth on
Apr 15, 2008 11:53 AM CDT
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Im sure Stoney deserved it
Not what was published, but I think Stoneys a jerk.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on
Apr 15, 2008 11:57 AM CDT
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As I have posted before...
...I have spoken to people close to what happened in 04, and here are a few facts:
1. Stone was not well liked by several players (and front office people) long before Dusty got here
2. Stone is even more arrogant off the air then he is on the air (if you can believe that)
3. Merker was the ring leader of 04 (but everyone knows that now)
4. Dusty had nothing to do to stimulate the actions towards Stone, but he also didn’t intervene
From what I have gathered, Stone’s personality was not well respected or liked by players and front office folks alike for sometime before the blowup. Dusty could have jumped in to nip it before it got out of hand but he didn’t.
Stone is a very very smart guy, but he has been absolutely teflon when it comes to how this whole thing was reported in the media. I am not excusing Dusty or any players for how they handled it (because they were wrong), but let’s just say Stone has a personality that can and has frayed a lot of nerves.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Apr 15, 2008 1:31 PM CDT
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Thanks
I knew I wasnt the only one who felt that about Stoney.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on
Apr 15, 2008 3:03 PM CDT
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I have heard many of the same things.
Glad to see them confirmed.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Apr 15, 2008 3:19 PM CDT
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I've always liked Stoney...
and found him to be entertaining and very knowledgable-but, apart from that, I also have heard first hand stories about what a complete jerk he can be when the mikes and cameras are off. I’m also not really defending what was done to him or th eway it was handled, but, yeah, I don’t think it was as one sided as it seemed to be at the time. And, without trying to defend Dusty-who was truly a terrible manager-I don’t think it’s right to blame him for the way some his players acted-I mean, these are grown men, right?
by bluekoolaide on
Apr 15, 2008 3:43 PM CDT
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Yea, well...
...let’s just say as far as public perception goes, Stoney has lived a charmed life.
Folks in the media (written & electronic) know all this same stuff, but I really think they fear saying anything bad about the guy, because it would cause more trouble for them then good.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Apr 15, 2008 4:22 PM CDT
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Welcome to modern day Wrigley...
...while it’s exciting to have a full-house for every game, it wasn’t all that long ago that the Cubs averaged 25-30K per game vs the 40K they get today. The big difference is this; there were probably more knowledgable baseball fans in the park when they drew 25K vs the 40K they draw today and that is reflective in how the ballpark reacts.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 15, 2008 9:16 AM CDT 0 recs
It may be the same number of knowledgeable fans...
... the rest of the park filled with tourists and gawkers.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Apr 15, 2008 9:20 AM CDT
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You're right on, Al.
I don’t think the number of knowledgeable Cubs fans has diminished, it’s just that the people who come for the “party” are increasing. Unfortunatley these are the people that the vast majority of outsiders view as “Cubs Fans.” If/when Dusty and Corey get booed tonight it will be by the drunks, etc who think they are being cool, not by knowledgeable Cubs fans.
by Tangled Up In Blue on
Apr 15, 2008 9:24 AM CDT
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That was the point...
...I was trying to make. Thanks for making it clearer.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Apr 15, 2008 9:25 AM CDT
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And in my experience..
the night games are the worst..
Wood for closer.
by wicubfan on
Apr 15, 2008 10:20 AM CDT
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yup
The one image I have burnt into my mind is of Hawkins back with Giants pitching in the rain and hearing thousands of people chant “Hawkins sucks.” sure he didn’t play all that well for us, but that was awful.
---AC 00 00 00 - Believe
by mjk83 on
Apr 15, 2008 1:17 PM CDT
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It wasnt awful
That he blew every game when he came back against us,
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on
Apr 15, 2008 3:06 PM CDT
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Wrigley crowd
The crowd at Wrigley has sadly deteriorated the past several years. The diehards and average true blue baseball fans are being overwhelmed by the corporate types, yuppies and frat boys. Unfortunately, I think a lot of baseball players around the league (to include members of the Cubs) think poorly of our crowd. Let’s face it, there are too many a_s clowns in attendance these days. You would have never said that a decade ago.
by MDBNIU on
Apr 15, 2008 9:42 AM CDT
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I think YOU wouldn't have said that a decade ago.
It’s a neighborhood ballpark. In a neighborhood populated by young, urban corporate types.
I’m a little sensitive to the “corporate, yuppie, frat boy” comments, because technically I’m all three. I also happen to think I’m a pretty good fan.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on
Apr 15, 2008 9:45 AM CDT
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and another thing...
can’t
corporate, yuppie, frat boy
=
diehard and true blue
?
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on
Apr 15, 2008 9:57 AM CDT
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Spoken for the truth.
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry
by Jayo525 on
Apr 15, 2008 1:12 PM CDT
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speaking from one fraternity guy to another....
I’m sure you know that there is are different kinds of people in fraternities. The are frat boys and there are fraternity men. I trust you know the difference and I’d be willing to bet that you are in the latter category.
---AC 00 00 00 - Believe
by mjk83 on
Apr 15, 2008 1:26 PM CDT
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"the past several years," really?
Seems to me that people have grumbling about the onslaught of “corporate types, yuppies and frat boys” for the last 20 years. Wrigley Field is a tourist destination—get over it. And when the Cubs are expected to do well, as they are this season, the number of, shall we say, “casual spectactors” will rise dramatically. Again, we “serious fans” just need to accept this and get on with enjoying the game and our favorite team.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on
Apr 15, 2008 9:51 AM CDT
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^^^^
The point I was trying to make.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on
Apr 15, 2008 9:54 AM CDT
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So, MDBNIU
folks like me, who live in far away lands that make sure a game at Wrigley a definite tourist stop are not, and can never be, “diehards and average true blue baseball fans”? I think that is about as ignorant an opinion that I have ever heard…...
by crazymountain on
Apr 15, 2008 9:59 AM CDT
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Who said that?
I didn’t. A lot of the best Cub fans in the world are people who don’t live in Chicago. Or catch games at Wrigley. I have no problem with the tourist crowd. They have always been a backbone of the crowd at Wrigley. What saddens me is the overwhelming numbers the generally disinterested and the obnoxious. I’m a corporate type myself. And once upon a time I was even a yuppie. So generalizations are not what this is about.
by MDBNIU on
Apr 15, 2008 10:53 AM CDT
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Yeah... I go to one or two games a year.
... does that make me a “tourist” BlueMike?
Hector Villanueva's Career Stolen Bases: 1
by IowaCubs- on
Apr 15, 2008 11:52 AM CDT
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I hate to be rude but...
what do you base “I think a lot of baseball players around the league (to include members of the Cubs) think poorly of our crowd” on?
by Holy Cow on
Apr 15, 2008 11:17 AM CDT
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There are obnoxious fans everywhere.
Especially where alcohol is sold. The RF bleachers in the old Yankee Stadium were famous because fans yelled obscenities at players and even threw the batteries of their transistor radios at the outfielders for the opposing team (or their own after a very bad play, in very rare occasions).
And what about fans all over the country, especially at Shea, chanting “Larry” sarcastically at Chipper Jones?
Fans are fans. Some are polite, others are rude. I suggest we try to emulate the polite ones.
by Fraggin Judge on
Apr 15, 2008 3:28 PM CDT
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I remmeber sitting in the LF bleachers
when Giles was a Pirate. Brians wifes name is “DODE” The fans chanted DO-DE DO-DE DO-DE. It ws actually pretty funny.
Still to this day, Carlos Lee is the best “sport” when it comes to ribbing in the bleachers, I love when hes out there, just not at the plate.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on
Apr 15, 2008 3:30 PM CDT
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70's Wrigley Crowd
As a kid – no better place after opening day – tickets were about $2 dollars but the temp’s were about 38F. If you sat in the bleachers back then – very few knowledgeable folks out in that part of the stadium. Mostly drunk and all loud and many shirtless. Great memories of those Cubs vs. Expos games in 78!
by rmonday557 on
Apr 15, 2008 1:31 PM CDT
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Cub players gush over Dusty
Bruce Miles had a great column today. He interviewed Kerry Wood, Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez and Michael Wuertz for their opinions on Dusty. Each of them gushed with praise and said Dusty is one of the best in the business. Wood also said it’s horse bleep that Dusty ruined Cub pitchers, to include himself.
I hope the Wrigley crowd acts with class today and accords Dusty the respect he deserves. Maybe it will end the ridiculous obsession some Cub fans have for the man and his managerial methods.
by MDBNIU on Apr 15, 2008 9:16 AM CDT 0 recs
I think Dusty's failure
was just an incorrect pairing of player type and manager type. They enjoyed success a little too early into his career, and Dusty’s not a great manager for players who think they’re the best team. Dusty works best with teams like the Reds, who need the confidince that a “player’s manager” can instill.
Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!
by Bildo1805 on
Apr 15, 2008 9:19 AM CDT
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Baker works best...
... when there are strong player-leaders, as the 2003 Cubs had with Eric Karros and Damian Miller. When they left, the inmates started running the asylum, with predictable results.
I don’t know if this year’s Reds have similar clubhouse leaders—but if they want to have any chance to succeed, they’ll need them.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Apr 15, 2008 9:21 AM CDT
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He also works best with a good team
not what Jim Hendry gave him that last year. We hung on the premise that Prior and Wood would be back way too long. We should have stockpiled a pitcher (s) like it seems Jim has learned now. And when DLee went down, that was the finish. I’ve said this many times, if Baker would have gotten a one year contract with the team that Lou had he may have still been here. I like what Lou did last year but it’s clear the players liked Dusty and given time and a team we might have still liked him…..although that base clogging thing would never go away! Let’s hope we clog the bases tonight and have some timely RBI’s.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
by mrcubsfan on
Apr 15, 2008 11:15 AM CDT
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Lou
I think the way Lou cleared house and gave opportunities to players nobody expected to hear from says a lot about both Lou’s ability to judge talent and Dusty’s inability. Granted, Baker would have done better than 2006 with Sori, Lilly, and Marquis, but not what Lou did.
by dr stabbingworth on
Apr 15, 2008 12:05 PM CDT
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Who wouldn't do a better job with a better team?
Dusty is not the worst manager out there; he just isn’t the phenom that his media cronies at ESPN say he is.
by Fraggin Judge on
Apr 15, 2008 3:29 PM CDT
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Joe Torre...
....didn’t exactly tear it up before he got to the Yankees did he? He is the gold standard example of giving a manager WAY TOO MUCH credit for a front office that got him all the parts.
Dusty, on the other hand, is the best example of a manager who got WAY TOO MUCH blame for the injuries he faced, and bad decisions by the front office.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Apr 15, 2008 3:34 PM CDT
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Well said.
Kind of the perfect example. Switch the teams for the managers and you may get the same/similiar results.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on
Apr 15, 2008 3:36 PM CDT
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Casey Stengel.
Same deal. When he managed the Dodgers and Braves he was thought of as a buffoon.
He goes to the Yankees and suddenly he’s a genius.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Apr 15, 2008 3:38 PM CDT
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I think that guys like
Griffey and Hatteberg can help provide that for Baker.
by davidalanu on
Apr 15, 2008 11:22 AM CDT
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WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
What is this based on? Did you ever once set foot in the clubhouse with the team? Have you talked to a single player from the 2003 Cubs about this theory? Please show me something that supports this asinine theory.
by Leon Durham on
Apr 15, 2008 12:04 PM CDT
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Dude, it's a blog/message board.
Al doesn’t need to step in a clubhouse. Neither do any of us.
What we do on a blog/message board is take the facts, rumors, and observations in the public domain, mix them with what we see/hear on a regular basis (because most of us do watch/listen to all the games), and spit out our opinions. These opinions, especially in Al’s case, are mixed with a general knowledge of the game.
Al’s right, Dusty has a body of work that shows he works best with strong leadership from a couple players.

