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Around SBN: Holy War Week Brings out the Worst in Fans

Appalling racist Cubs shirt being sold outside of Wrigley.

This is the first time this has been brought to my attention and for those of you who see many games at Wrigley are well aware of it, but it bothered me so much I felt obligated to bring this to the attention of other Cub fans.

This shirt is not in any way affiliated with or a licensed product by the Chicago Cubs but the fact that it's the "hottest selling item" at the souvenier stand, is absolutely revolting and embarrassing as a Cub fan. IF anyone reading this, has bought this shirt, do me a favor and take a couple glasses of Clorox bleach and pour it directly into your eyes, so you can no longer see. Seriously.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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seriously.............

who in the hell would actually wear that thing?
applause applause Lemon

by plenz on Apr 18, 2008 7:03 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

FUKUDOME

is a class act.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 18, 2008 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did anyone ever take offense...

to the Cardinals shirt that says “Cardinals take it in their Pujols”. I don’t know, like the article said, it’s a silly t-shirt. No reason to create an uproar.

by RMRZisMYmanCRUSH on Apr 18, 2008 7:35 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hopefully

Cardinal fans did. That shirt was not celebratory of Pujols, was intended to tease or offend. It was based on a name that sounds like an orifice, not 200 years of racist and hurtful ignorance.
The shirt being sold at Wrigley is supposed to celebrate Fukudome, and in doing so it draws on despicable images whose purpose are to alienate, offend, images that have historically opened the subject to attacks of violence.

by patron on Apr 18, 2008 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LSA, patron.

RMRZ, you are dead wrong.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

but

“The shirt being sold at Wrigley is supposed to celebrate Fukudome, and in doing so it draws on despicable images whose purpose are to alienate, offend, images that have historically opened the subject to attacks of violence.”

It’s… ...a… ...shirt…???

Not a public figure running for office, not someone at your doorstep selling you bibles…

It’s

A

Shirt?

by RMRZisMYmanCRUSH on Apr 18, 2008 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Words have power. Images have power.

I’m not saying the shirt’s creator or the people selling it should be drawn and quartered, but someone should get in their faces and let them know that what they’re doing is wrong.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Correction

Words and images only have power if you let them.

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

by WayneCampbell08 on Apr 18, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right, if you live in a bubble.

I don’t. I live in society. Here both have power to affect my life and that of everyone around me.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me be clear....use of racial or ethnic generalizations promote prejudice and bias

The inherent worth and dignity of every person, one can extend that as a growing 21st conscience as all living things and maybe the 22nd century will develop the conscience of all things in the universe.

The only way humor can be derived from this is making fun of the inherent bias as a slight. The slight of course are the “slanted eyes” as in exaggerated American Actors doing “Charlie Chan” or “Mr. Moto”, then with followed with the take on inability to pronounce properly the English phenoms….

This shirt does not elevate with dignity and worth it degrades the buyer, the seller and the Cubs. Ignorance come is all forms and learning from it is sometimes a tough journey, for the underlying message is WHITE AMERICAN SUPREMACY…..

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Apr 18, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably

You probably think Zambrano and Ramirez are the same because they are both of hispanic heritage.

Or that all dark skinned people come from Africa or have African heritage.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 22, 2008 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just want to be clear on this.

Racism = Bad? Homophobia = Just Teasing?

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Apr 18, 2008 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You have a good point...

...and let me make clear that I’m not condoning the Pujols shirt when I stated that RMRZ is dead wrong. My point is that there is EVERY reason to create an uproar here. The person who created this shirt and the people selling it should be made to feel the shame they’ve brought on all of us.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Treat it with the disdain that it deserves.

I don’t know why you should feel shame for something you did not help to create or sell or purchase yourself. You’ve done nothing to propagate its existence or distribution. It’s certainly offensive, but in reality there’s little public outrage is going to do but make more people aware that the shirt is available. Maybe, if enough people get upset, the shirt won’t be sold on the street anymore, but then there’s always the internet.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Apr 18, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe I shouldn't feel ashamed.

Yet I know that, if I walked by that t-shirt stand or saw some moron jumping up and down in the bleachers wearing that shirt, I would feel ashamed to be rooting for the same baseball team. Maybe that’s irrational, but it’s how I would feel—it’s how I do feel. And that fact that Dome is aware of this situation makes it all the worse.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

When i read

Fukudome’s response, I felt sad for him, and for me. And I wanted to apologize. He is not an outsider, he is not different, or even exotic, yet that has been so much of the focus of the media attention, that it has got to be exhausting at the least.
Let me rephrase that, the only way that Fuku is different is that he is fundamentally sound and seemingly cold blooded. Qualities very rare around Wrigley field over the years.

by patron on Apr 18, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No But

Let me be clear, I would not wear either shirt, nor laugh at either shirt.

However, there are issues of degree between the two shirts.
I read the Pujols shirt to be a joke on the anal nature of his name.
No implicit homophobia there, I too have a poo hole.
And I glossed over “the take it in their” (And, some non-gay people enjoy it there as well so again the homophobia seems to me to be distant), in that the true offense in the Pujols shirt is to a 3rd party, while the derogatory nature in the Cubs shirt is aimed directly at the individual it claims to uphold.

by patron on Apr 18, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

While the homophobia may not be as explicit, it's still there without making much of a stretch.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Apr 18, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i do agree

that a shirt addressing an individual versus a 3rd party is a bit different. But i often times think that people look too hard to find some type of hidden agenda in a shirt.. such as “White Supremacy”?? I look at the big picture…

Cubs fans our celebrating Fukudome right now. He’s an exciting player that makes you say “holy cow!” all over again. I always look past the details and just try to see the big picture of what people are really trying to say. Even if they say it in a dumb, low-brow way.

by RMRZisMYmanCRUSH on Apr 18, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess I just choose to hold people to a higher standard.

The only way stuff like this stops is if racists - inadvertant or otherwise - are educated about their mistakes.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we have to look at it

from the outside. Too many times we see a bit of a “mob mentality” when it comes to this type of thing. The Wrigley boobs get caught up in this type furror and feel that anything goes. I wish that as Cub fans we would look at these types of things as others would see us and realize that putting this type of thing on a t-shirt is just plain silly.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 18, 2008 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The concept of white supremacy is as subtle as any message

Why is “Horry KOW” funny….but that a person learning the language in another culture is unable to pronounce the proper phenoms of this English language…English is a white European language that is dominant because of centuries of white European conquests throughout the globe….it is funny because we are dominant, here….making fun not only at an individual but the generalization that ‘they’ or ‘some’ cannot pronounce it to our standards…

White supremacy was what confronted desegregation when the Supreme Court ruled in ‘54 that separate but equal was unconstitutional, it is what confronts us now with unspoken racial tensions. Baseball in the diamond is pure for the performance of Kosuke (that is the name he goes by not the second name Fukudome which is our culture) is not based on race, but on the results.

Let me ask you is it racist if there was a T-Shirt of a caricature of poncho villa type of character…long mustache and dark eyebrows with a phenom caricature let’s say the S american announcer going HOOOOOOOOOOLIE COOOOOOOOOW like in their soccer games…..

Why, because we are a white dominant society…..whether you see is immaterial except that you may want to review why you don’t.

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Apr 18, 2008 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or better yet .....

put Harry in blackface with big lips and big grin saying “Holy Cow Y’all”. As a black man I would be extremely offended by that. I just don’t think we need this kind of stuff. Leave the bathroom humor in the toilet.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 18, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LSA

It’s too often that sexual preference isn’t treated the same as race, creed, religion and gender in this country. Jokes about ALL of these things aren’t funny, and they’re classless.

Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!

by Bildo1805 on Apr 18, 2008 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LSA!!!!!!!!!!!

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

The Pujols shirts make me cringe. But while we’re talking jokes about sexual orientation, there are bigger fish to fry, like the playing of “YMCA” when the visitors pull the starter mid-inning. That’s not a small-time vendor making a buck—that’s a gay slur, made at a visiting player’s expense, by the team itself.

But we all know gays don’t like baseball, so who cares, right?

by techne on Apr 18, 2008 8:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

I don’t see the correlation between playing YMCA, a pitching change, and homosexuality. I understand the Village People enjoyed the company of one another, but I don’t get how playing their music implies a third party’s homosexuality.

by Rev Gunia on Apr 18, 2008 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

seriously? you don't see it?

—“YMCA” invites the “young man” to come to the YMCA to engage in homosexual activity. The Village People were a gay novelty act, and the lyrics are 100% sexual innuendo. It’s true that the song’s meaning has been obscured in its years of being used to encourage crowd participation, but the meaning is there.

—The song is always played when the visiting team’s starter is being yanked mid-inning (during the reliever’s eight).

—Yanking a starter mid-inning is nearly always the result of a meltdown and is seen as a shameful thing, a moment of weakness/failure, by many. The player is mocked and derided at this time by some home fans. His manhood is often impugned.

—There is a stereotype out there in the public mind that homosexuals are limp-wristed and can’t throw, and that they are less manly than straight men.

Therefore. The team, via the PA system guys, is saying “as a result of your poor play, we invite you to homosexual activity.” Put another way, “Ha ha! You fag!”

“Another one bites the dust,” “na na hey hey goodbye,” “take me out” [franz ferdinand]...these don’t marginalize anybody. Course they are a different tone, and have baggage. But you get the idea. There are lots of choices.

by techne on Apr 19, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're reading too much into that

I doubt anybody is thinking, “ha! for that poor pitching performance, you are not relegated to locker room homosexual activity!” It’s really quite a stretch.

The song YMCA has been stripped of any subliminal homosexual messages. When I was a teacher and chaperoned dances, the DJs played this song all the time and all the kids did that Y, M, C, A thing with their hands. It was just fun song and never implied that the middle schoolers were gay.

It’s also played at nearly every wedding I’ve been to, not to question the bridal party’s sexuality, but because it’s a fun song to dance to. No social message. Just fun.

I think you need to breathe. Relax a bit. Quit looking for stuff to be offended by.

by Rev Gunia on Apr 19, 2008 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

has anyone seen the the shirts the cardinals fans made?

I saw a couple at wrigley that sai “Cubs suck, Lee swallows”

Devin Hester, you are rediculous! -Jeff Joniak

by ARAM FOR MVP on Apr 18, 2008 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gosh, that's not even clever.

Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager

by northsider on Apr 18, 2008 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget

This is the Sun-Times reporting on the story… not saying the shirt isn’t bad, and that it needs to go… it does. However, it’s a small souvenir stand outside Wrigley made by a few people looking for a quick buck… which they won’t get if noone buys it. The S-T has now given the stand exactly what they want – free publicity and fame.

There is no place like Nebraska - Go Huskers!

by sanantonecub on Apr 18, 2008 7:38 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Who in their right mind would wear that?

Except (from my experience and Im not lumping all Philly fans Mr Brennaman) possibly in Philly.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 18, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This line in the article made me chuckle...
Kolbusz went as far as pointing out that the shirt’s creator is ’’an Oriental guy’’

It’s gotta be like 15+ years ago, when I first heard of the whole Asian/Oriental distinction thing, and people giving interviews to the press still haven’t figured it out yet.

Seriously though, the t-shirt, cap, trinket, and whatever-else-they-can-push-on-you-outside-the-stadium vendors are basically the same as the carni-folk we get out here in the sticks, when the fair comes to town twice a year.

You really can’t expect them to have any class…..nor the rubes (which in this case would be “the-one-and-only-day-I’m-at-Wrigley-Field” Cubs fan) buying up those shirts.

But…this is a non-story. There have been…and always will be…people that see nothing wrong with this shirt. It’s only when things like this, get brought up in “mainstream media” places is there some kind of outrage for a week or two, then it’ll disappear…. and nothing will change in the minds of the people that are causing the “outrage”.

by MillsChC on Apr 18, 2008 7:49 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Re:

Kolbusz went as far as pointing out that the shirt’s creator is ’’an Oriental guy’’

Someone needs to read their Said.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sigh...

Sadly, this is my sentiment when I see many of the “Fukudome” items at Wrigley. I’ve often wondered if people appreciate the irony of cheering for someone as you’re effectively insulting them.

by Damen Jackson on Apr 18, 2008 7:52 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

LSA

It’s like rain on a wedding day, my man.

Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!

by Bildo1805 on Apr 18, 2008 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What impresses me...

is Fukudome’s response about the whole thing. He handled it very similar to how Tiger Woods handled the lynching thing. I think it was Jim Brown who tried to make a huge race deal about it, but Tiger chose not too and keep his name out of the media for stuff stuff. Kudos Fukudome.

"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"

by HIGGY on Apr 18, 2008 7:57 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This sums it up for me too.

That shirt makes me cringe. I would never buy one and I’m not sure why people do. That goes for most of the “independent” shirts sold by street vendors near Wrigley, including the ones extolling getting drunk. Who buys that stuff?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 18, 2008 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who buys that stuff?

Frat boys. (Notice, I didn’t say men… ) :)

by Archie on Apr 18, 2008 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice

Try not to trip over your own hipocricy making blanket statements about people.

by dorf on Apr 18, 2008 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Plenty of non-Greeks wearing those.

Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!

by Bildo1805 on Apr 18, 2008 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The same people...

Who go to wrigley to drink and not watch the game, the same ones who boo the players, the same ones who swear the entire game, and finally the ones who give the good Cub fans bad names.

(FYI – i am not saying i have never been to a Cubs game and not gotten drunk, but you guys know what i mean, i am talking about the obnoxious people who could careless there is a baseball game being played) So please not hate mail :)

"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"

by HIGGY on Apr 18, 2008 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The same people.....

Who go to Wrigley, get drunk, piss everybody off and want to fight when someone tries to get them to shutup.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 18, 2008 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I bought one shirt from one of those vendors...

The one that has the mock Old Style logo that says Cub Style. I thought that was kinda cool. However, I hate the “Win or lose we still booze” (aka we dont care about the game as long as we drink ourselves out of the place) “Shut up and drink your beer!” as well as the ones degrading the Cardinals, Packers, White Sox and the Cell. I mean seriously, would you rather get a cool shirt FOR THE TEAM YOU ROOT FOR or waste $10 on a shirt with a bad mock up of the Cell scoreboard that says “US Cell Out Field”? Come on. Stupid crap.

by AndHart120 on Apr 18, 2008 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The win or lose we still booze

anyone wearing that shirt is the exact example of Cub fans I hate.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 21, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's always a knucklehead.

This shirt proves that there is always someone around willing to do anything to make a buck. I would hope cub fans would show a little class by not buying this crap, but to expect a little intelligence from some of the rubes that come to Wrigley to display this kind of junk would be asking way too much.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 18, 2008 8:29 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Ugh

Sadly, ignorant people are everywhere. I remember back when Hee Seop Choi was with the Cubs, a couple of guys sitting next to me at the park were making fun of him and talking in a mock Asian accent. It was quite offensive and made me feel very uncomfortable. Obviously, these aren’t the attitudes of the vast majority of real Cub fans, but these types of things do not represent us well.

by lance dickson on Apr 18, 2008 8:34 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I mean its 2008

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 18, 2008 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was at "Sammy Sosa Day"

The year Sammy hit 63 hr’s (‘98?) and he gave a speech in English, and then for maybe 40 seconds spoke in Spanish and i could feel the mood of the fans change, and hear people muttering, “Speak English.”

by patron on Apr 18, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well I do agree that players should speak English

I am not trying to start anything but IMO if you are in an english speaking country earning a lot of money you should learn the language. If I went to Mexico to work I would learn their language.

BTW, Sosa hit 66 in 1998

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 18, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's not start this debate.

For one thing, all ballplayers from other countries DO learn English. Some speak it better than others. Sosa speaks English quite well. 40 seconds’ worth of Spanish shouldn’t have been a problem.

Let’s end this discussion right here before it gets political. Thanks.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 18, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree---just wanted to put it out there

and didnt want anyone to really notice.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 18, 2008 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL. Next time tell us...

...when you don’t want us to read your posts.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ill add it to my sig.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 18, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right, Al... Let's talk about something we can all agree on...

...like cockfighting! ;-)

If you play Defender I could be your hyper-space.

by IowaCubs- on Apr 18, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You probably won't believe me...

but at the game yesterday I saw a young Asian-American woman wearing this shirt.

I didn’t think to take a picture.

If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. -- Dave Barry

by bluebythebook on Apr 18, 2008 8:47 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That just goes to show.....

that stupidity is not limited to any particular nationality.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 18, 2008 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LSA

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 18, 2008 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw that shirt at the last homestand

And I literally turned to a friend and said, I wonder how long it will take for someone to see this shirt and make a huge deal out of it….thank you sun-times. While I personally don’t find it offensive because I am not asian, if the asian community finds it offensive then they probably shouldn’t sell it

"We Are Not Fair Weather But Foul Weather Fans, Brothers In Arms In Streets and The Stands." -Eddie Vedder, Someday We'll Go All The Way

by ryanbrixenivy on Apr 18, 2008 9:02 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I find it offensive, and I'm not Asian

And I would even if I hadn’t lived in Asia.

by Shanghai Badger on Apr 18, 2008 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just read that article myself...

...and I completely agree, lemon20pie. This racist BS is a slap in the face to a talented, dignified athlete who has done nothing but good for the Chicago Cubs.

And I strongly disagree with those of you saying it will just “go away.” Have you watched Dome play baseball recently? He’s given us every reason to believe he will be a highly productive and well-known member of this team for at least several years to come.

It’s probably too early to call him the Cubs’ Ichiro, but that’s not out of the question. If this sort of thing isn’t stopped right now, it will only get worse.

This is why I’ve been so adamantly opposed to people making bad puns on the “fuk” in his name. No matter how well intentioned you might be, doing so twists his name into an obscenity and that’s disrespectful.

The t-shirt in question should offend everyone—no matter what you’re ethnic background might be. The t-shirt’s creator, and the vendor(s) selling it, should be ashamed of themselves. I’d love to see an organized protest come into play here.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 9:15 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your whole point, except the nick-name.
A name is not a race, and a bodily function (sex is a function)
is not only disrespectful. It is also blissful, important, funny, stupid.
A nickname isn’t only a compliment. It is a term of endearment
Fukudome, contains Fuku, no shame there, to ignore it, or look away from it is to wash over large portions of his personalities. To merely call him ‘Dome, within the context of this conversation (i.e. what is the correct thing to call him) strikes me as insisting that he be virginal.

by patron on Apr 18, 2008 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but it's HIS name.

And, from what we’ve learned about this man, he doesn’t strike me as the kind of person who would find his name being associated with an obscenity as endearing. Sure, some people would, but I don’t think he would—and that’s what matters. (I would also point out, for about the 1000th time, that we have it on good authority that “Dome” is what he’d prefer to be called.)

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Only the 2nd time to me

And I am still not sure it holds all that much weight.
On a totally different topic, I do not know what you’ve learned, but I know almost nothing about him.
And even if I read every interview he’d ever given, I still wouldn’t know anything about his person.
Part of the sadness i felt this morning in hearing Fukudome have to respond to the shirt, was the seeming impossibility of him expressing himself. The impossability that the meaning he wanted to put forth would come through.

by patron on Apr 18, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interestingly, we seem to agree and disagree in equal measures.

I have a hard time understanding how you say that, even if you read every interview he’s ever given, you wouldn’t know anything about him.

Sure, you wouldn’t be as intimate with him as a personal friend or relative,but one can surely learn something about a person from reading (and listening to) their public statements. I don’t know Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens or Greg Maddux either, but I have a pretty damn good idea which one I’d like to hang out with and, more important, which one I have respect for. (There’s that word again.)

Moreover, I thought Dome expressed himself rather well. He’s not going to embarass himself by getting overdramatic about the situation, but he made it very clear that: a) He is offended, and b) The t-shirt should go away.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fukudome did express himself well, and he always has so far.

And I did exaggerate a little to much. Sorry. But what I am saying is, you don’t know these players, which shouldn’t stop you from making loads of judgements positive and negative. When did you not like Clemmen’s? Before or after he left Boston, stopped being fat, became a Yankee, threw the bat at Piazza, sold himself to the highest bidder again and again? retired and un retired and pitched half seasons, was named in the Mitchell report, threw everyone around him under the bus? When did he leave Greg Maddox’s camp? Were you wrong about Clemmens then and right now? My guess is that your sentence would not have included his name 2 years ago.
Were you wrong about OJ, MJ, Kobe, Pete Rose, Steve Garvey? A guy like Lamar Odom maybe shows that it works both ways.
These people are in a business that is about presenting a perception of themselves. As hero’s, role models, saviors, warriors, favorites, studied, natural, and a thousand other words that keep any media report for getting at their true selves.

by patron on Apr 18, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, to be honest, I've NEVER liked Clemens.

I’ve always thought he was a hothead and a bully - going back way before the recent dramatics. But I think I see what you’re getting at. My impression of Dome is that he’s a studious, dignified man, though certainly not lacking a sense of humor. My guess - and, yes, it can only be a guess—is that he would prefer fans not associate his last name with an obscenity under any circumstances. And, as we agree upon, he’s made his thoughts on the t-shirt in question very clear.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Loud, sustained applause.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 18, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow

that’s a terrible shirt.

of course most of those shirts that they sell outside of Wrigley are.

---AC 00 00 00 - Believe

by mjk83 on Apr 18, 2008 9:17 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

In my part of the country

There are a lot of people here who are simply too stupid to realize the ignorance and offensiveness of their actions, and they are the type of people who would wear a shirt like this. They just don’t have a perspective that is sympathetic to a wider world view. Unfortunately, it also means that they immunize themselves from any possible political correction, in more than likely uncouth ways; i.e., “I’ll beat the hell out of anyone who tries to tell me how to act.” The fact that Fukodome’s response to all of this reflects his overall sense of class and dignity is yet another reason to move him right up amongst the top tier of our favorite Cubs players.

by NWIowaCubFan on Apr 18, 2008 9:19 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Loud, sustained applause

n/t

If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. -- Dave Barry

by bluebythebook on Apr 18, 2008 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thirded.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 18, 2008 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well put.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 18, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow... well said...

Though I doubt all of your neighbors would react that way.

If you play Defender I could be your hyper-space.

by IowaCubs- on Apr 18, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Orwell

“they immunize themselves from any possible political correction”

Did you pull that line straight from 1984? This thread is disturbing in its unintended irony.

by marooncub on Apr 18, 2008 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My two cents

The shirt is stupid. Am I offended? To a point. The guy is trying to make a buck. I would be far far far more offended if I actually saw someone wearing it. I bet that I never will. I think most people see the obvious bigotted nature of the shirt. Those who bought it probably were drunk or saw it as some kind of kitschy thing. Once they get home they will look at it and realize that they would never want to be caught dead in it.

It’s also interesting that this story comes only a couple days after the baseball community paid tribute to Jackie Robinson.

They call me MISTER Fukudome!

by brokenland on Apr 18, 2008 10:06 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Ugh...good point about the Jackie Robinson thing.

To think that someone might have been wearing that shirt during the Jackie Robinson game. The mind reels…

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LSA

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 18, 2008 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

One more reaction

After reading the article, and Fukudome’s response, the only thing I can say is this: Do we even deserve such a classy guy in right field?

The Cubs do need to step in here, I think. And I say that as a lifelong civil libertarian, albeit one who also thinks the Confederate “Stars and Bars” needs, now, to be seen as the American equivalent of the swastika.

And thank you for your response, Dome-san.

by MN exile on Apr 18, 2008 10:56 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you

but what can the Cubs do?

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 18, 2008 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure what the Cubs can do...

...but I’d love to see a group of fans stage a nonviolent protest next to that vendor’s t-shirt stand.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

amen... nothing confrontational, per se, but...

perhaps quietly voicing an opinion or two toward the vendor… letting him know that you won’t buy from him until he stops selling the shirt.

If you play Defender I could be your hyper-space.

by IowaCubs- on Apr 18, 2008 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking of something...

...more along the lines of a picket line with signs, maybe handing the t-shirt vendor a petition to stop selling the shirt signed by a couple hundred fans or something. I’m not sure what the legal ramifications would be, of course.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As a transplanted Chicago boy living in Tennessee.....

....your Stars and Bars opinion is one you’re entitled to, but after spending almost 20 years in the South, I disagree with you. Bear in mind that the shame of slavery existed in all states at one time or another and I daresay that many history textbooks used in US classrooms are revisionististic (if that’s a word).

Comparing it to a swastika is over the top to say the least.

BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"

by cubfever7 on Apr 21, 2008 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Saving this shirt

all the guy needs to do is put ” holy cow” in japanese. It would make a good shirt.

by xene on Apr 18, 2008 10:58 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah... but it doesn't change the message or image...

If you play Defender I could be your hyper-space.

by IowaCubs- on Apr 18, 2008 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think that

the slant-eyed bear could do for a bit of a change too.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 18, 2008 11:01 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm looking forward to wearing...

My Fukudome Kimono to the game on Saturday. I’m going to throw sushi, sake and fortune cookies at the opposing players.

In all seriousness, this shit shirt is exactly what I was fearing from Cubs fans when we signed Fukudome. In all likelihood, this has already appeared in Japanese media, and will serve as a warning sign to other players not to play for a team who has some ignorant fans. I hope this guy gets approached to stop this at the game tonight.

If you play Defender I could be your hyper-space.

by IowaCubs- on Apr 18, 2008 11:42 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Please rec this post...

so that it gets more attention.

If you play Defender I could be your hyper-space.

by IowaCubs- on Apr 18, 2008 11:44 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Not only is it racist

It’s lazy. I’m wearing a “Harry Bear” t-shirt right now and I’m struck by the similarities to the shirt in question. It looks almost the same with the squinty eyes and big glasses. It’s a shame that Harry’s likeness is being used to stereotype Japanese people.

If you’re going to be a racist douchbag, put some effort into it, will ya?

"I don't think anybody's paying attention to the Cubs." - Prince Fielder

by jasoniniowa on Apr 18, 2008 11:51 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree totally.

Some Cub fans think they can use Harry’s likeness for any old piece of crap and laugh it off because it’s Harry. I think the shirt is almost as disrespectful to Harry as it is to the Japanese people.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 18, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh.
If you’re going to be a racist douchbag, put some effort into it, will ya?

I didn’t think I would chuckle while reading this thread, but you made me with that line. +1

If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. -- Dave Barry

by bluebythebook on Apr 18, 2008 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Geez

While I think the world and the U.S. in particular are waaay too uptight, and I’m tired of other people telling me when I’m supposed to be offended, I look at it this way: If the person the joke originates about is offended, then it’s bad. If that person doesn’t care, I probably shouldn’t either. (Unless it’s intentional, like the Cards/Pujols shirt, which is apples and oranges to me.)

The bad thing about this is that Fukudome doesn’t like it. I feel bad for the guy to have crap like that go on while he’s here. In spite of the fact that he’s playing at baseball’s highest level and making millions of bucks, I doubt this is the easiest year of his life. This can’t help.

by JDay on Apr 18, 2008 11:59 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't agree.

I am offended by that shirt and I am not afraid to admit it. I think we tend to let that stuff slide in the context of a baseball game but I care what people think about the Cubs, my city and this country and I don’t want to be associated with that type of stuff. I think we should stand up and voice an opinion if we are offend, if only to let the offenders know that they are crossing a line.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 18, 2008 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The sad part about this IS...

... that some have to be told that it’s offensive. It just is offensive and that’s not hard to recognize.

If you play Defender I could be your hyper-space.

by IowaCubs- on Apr 18, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 18, 2008 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

offensive?

sometimes i think people get into strange arguments involving semantics for stuff like this.

is the shirt offensive to me? no. i don’t get offended by t-shirts.

but it’s in poor taste, and really a shame that it upset fukudome.

by billywan on Apr 18, 2008 12:45 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

a shame it upset him?

it might as well say “gook” on the sleeve.

If you play Defender I could be your hyper-space.

by IowaCubs- on Apr 18, 2008 12:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

ummm

“shame it upset him” = it sucks that a stupid chicago t-shirt maker offended him, when i would really prefer that he feel welcomed and appreciated as i enjoy his playing and approach to the game.

sheesh.

by billywan on Apr 18, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"gook"

is precisely what a fan in Philly called in at the top of his lungs in Philly while I was there. Now Mr. Brenneman throwing baseballs is one but throwing racial slurs is another…..Philly IS worse than Chicago

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 18, 2008 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd label the shirt as more flat out ignorant than racist

Kosuke has probably won the love and acclaim of Cub fans more quickly and universally than any player I can remember. His at-bats are hands down my favorite part of the game…there’s not another player I’d rather have over for dinner than #1.

I’ve spent time in Japan and their culture is wonderful. BUT…although this shirt is in VERY poor taste and completely ignorant, I just don’t think slander toward the the Japanese is the intent; even if it may be injurious.

Pouring bleach in someone’s eyes for buying it sounds like a punishment reserved for places like Iran or Afghanistan and is just as ignorant.

The putz’s wearing karate kid headbands in the stands are no better in my view.

BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"

by cubfever7 on Apr 18, 2008 12:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, I gave lemon20pie the benefit of the doubt...

...that he was being facetious with his “bleach” comment. And, I must admit, I’m not a big fan of the headbans either.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 18, 2008 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's an ehtical nightmare

I get the impression that the debate is kinda over (if it really was a debate) but I just wanted to add my thoughts.

The shirt is clearly offensive, and while it may be morally wrong to print, sell, and purchase them, those involved aren’t doing anything worthy of reprimand.

America was founded on the principle of freedom, freedom of speech and expression are the two that are most relevant. The shirts designer / manufacturer has broken no laws, and is totally in the right if he/she wishes to create such a shirt. The patrons who buy the shirt are in no way wrong for making a purchase, nor for finding it funny.

It doesn’t mean we (being senisible minded people) have to like or approve of it. It does, however, mean that there’s not a whole lot to be done about it. Boycotting the shirt doesn’t really do anything, since those who would boycott are hardly those who would’ve otherwise bought one anyways. And berating people for buying or enjoying the shirt is just as morally unjust as buying/selling the shirt itself.

Wanting to educate people as to what is offensive and why isn’t a bad thing, but TELLING them what’s offensive and why is wrong. You can’t make up somebody’s mind for them. You can express your views, but imposing your views (as morally just as they may be) upon someone else is really immoral.

All that can really be done is to not buy the shirt. Don’t support a product that your morally opposed to. Is it sad? Yes. But it’s true, people really are this insensitive / ignorant / bigotted, when it comes to stuff like this. It’s unfortunate that it could cast an ill-favored shadow over Cubdom as well as Chicagoland in general.

by WittyUserName on Apr 18, 2008 1:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think the problem

that many of us have is the fact that this shirt is associated with Cubs. We feel that we are part of a group and some of us don’t like being labelled as bigotted or racist, because someone make a t-shirt that associates the Cubs with offensive material. Being African-American I am particularly offended by this type of characterization.

I agree with the principle of freedom of speech and will defend your right to express your views. I cannot stop anyone from spewing offensive garbage, but I don’t like being associated with something that will in all likelyhood offend a large group of people. I really don’t see a distinction between educating and telling in this sense. I feel it is our responsibilty to point out these types of things so that others don’t think that Cub fans support this type of trash. I, for one, will always complain when I see this type of stuff and don’t want to be associated with it.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 18, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't like being associated with it either

But there’s a difference between expressing your views as to what’s offensive and telling others what they should find offensive. I’m jewish, there are those who are offended by the mere fact that I exist. Is it right? No. Can I tell them that I don’t think it’s right, and I wish they would stop? Yes, of course I can, you can always express your views (kinda what this is about). But I can’t say ‘stop feeling that way, or else’, because 1. That’s unrealistic, you can’t change someone’s mind for them, and 2. Because, as rotten as it can be sometimes, people are 100% allowed to believe or feel whatever they want to.

It certainly sucks sometimes, but it kinda comes with the territory.

As far as being associated with it, as Cubs fans, whether we like it or not, we are. Even if the front office came out and said “We strongly oppose the printing of these shirts, we find them offensive, and it’s not the type of message we want to have affiliated with our organization”, it doesn’t change the fact that Cubs fans liked the shirts, and that Cubs fans bought the shirts. In the same way, there are times I’m ashamed to be an American, and times even where I’m ashamed to be human, plenty of awful things have been done by both of those groups.

by WittyUserName on Apr 18, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw this shirt at the vendor stands...

And I thought it was absolutely despicable. Not to mention all 3 vendors were wearing the shirt. It goes to show how low and ignorant some people can be. I’d like to participate in shutting this down completely if possible.

by Peter the Cubbie on Apr 18, 2008 4:47 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The only thing to do...

...is to stop by that souvenir stand and tell the proprietor that his shirts are racist and dehumanizing. I’ll do so before the game on Sunday.

I doubt that my action will affect his decision to sell the shirts but it seems more worthwhile than pontificating about it on the web.

by LaddieRenfroe on Apr 18, 2008 5:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't condone violent protest at all ....

.... but if someone did a drive by paintball attack and splattered all that moron’s stock where it couldn’t be used, my tear ducts won’t dry out crying for him ..

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Apr 18, 2008 5:24 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Free speech

it’s a bitch, ain’t it? If you don’t like it, don’t buy it, and feel free to tell the seller and any buyers how you feel about them. but i don’t really understand the point of writing an article or posting on a blog about it, there’s nothing you can do about it and instead you’re just calling more attention to it.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 18, 2008 5:27 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Re:

there’s nothing you can do about it

Ladies and Gentlemen, this has been the latest installment of “Why Bigotry and Racism Still Abound” Please tune in next time when we talk about classism.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, you're right

we would have already defeated racism if we could just outlaw it.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 18, 2008 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No.

We would get rid of racism if we would all take a stand against it, but passive, Freidman=ites like yourswlf would rather let other forces sort it out.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

what stand against racism

do you suggest? for some reason, i suspect it involves the state.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 18, 2008 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No.

State is a nebulous term, anyway. Go to the stand and let this guy hear about it. If everyone that passed that stand stooped and said, “That’s f-d and wrong. Stop it.” instead of making the shirt the guys best seller, it wouldn’t even be an issue. The shirt would be gone. But we don’t. The ignoramuses buy it, and those of us that find it offensive just sit idly by. I was there last night and I told that a—wipe what i thought. Bigotry needs to be confronted with the same vitriol with which it’s supplied.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok

like i said, tell the guy you don’t like it. i’m glad you don’t want to empower the state (meaning the governments of the U.S. and Illinois and Illinois’s political subdivisions) to “do something” about it.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 18, 2008 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hell no.

We need to do it. All of us, together, need to counteract this shyte.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How about we petition

the Cubs and the owners of Harry Caray’s to stop production?

Pretty sure the Cubs own the Cubby Bear logo, and Harry Caray’s, i’ve heard owns the “Holy Cow phrase.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 5:27 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

no

1. it doesn’t say “holy cow”
2. it doesn’t have the cubby bear logo
3. it’s clearly a parody
4. some people find it funny = artistic value

why not just let the marketplace sort it out?

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 18, 2008 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

WRONG.

It does have a Cubby Bear logo.

It is a bastardization of “Holy Cow”

If you find it funny, you’re a bigot.

The marketplace is inherently racist.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"likelihood of confusion"

do you think it’s likely that a reasonable person might mistakenly believe the shirt was produced by the cubs or the cubby bear? i don’t think so, but i suppose it’s up for debate. that’s why marks are protected, not to protect you or anyone from being offended. the 1st amendment protects one’s right to offend others.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 18, 2008 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But it doesn't

protect them from the consequences of that offense, per the 9th amendment to the Constitution. Hatespeech is hatespeech. This shirt is hatespeech, however cloaked, caged and framed you make it.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

indeed

free speech has nothing to do with the consequences of speech so long as such consequences are private (non-governmental) and lawful (harrassment, assault, etc are illegal).

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 18, 2008 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think

this shirt, as it’s being sold, takes it from the domain of the private and I think Dome’s comments on it’s content might definitely enable us to construe it’s effects as harassment.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's quite a stretch

offensive, sure. harrassment? no way.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 18, 2008 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If it were a shirt made in St. Louis

you’d sing a different tune, no? Harassment, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

uh, no

i don’t happen to believe that free speech or the elements of harassment are affected by the speaker or by his or her message. i would definitely be more likely to call a cardinals fan wearing the shirt that he’s an asshole, but no more likely to accuse him of harassment.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 20, 2008 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then you, sir,

are one in a million.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 21, 2008 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think that would be an excellent start

If it is the only way to take that garbage out of Wrigley, then so be it. I fully support this petition. No one of any race should be exploited this way, its terrible.

by Peter the Cubbie on Apr 18, 2008 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Online petition?

I’ll check around and see what I can do. If i make significant headway, I’ll post a diary.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

On second thought, maybe an online petition

isn’t the best way to go. How about e-mailing the Cubs media relations people?
Sharon Pannozzo’s e-mail: spannozzo@cubs.com

And here’s the list:
Jim Hendry Vice President/General Manager
Randy Bush Assistant General Manager
Scott Nelson Director, Baseball Administration
Billy Williams Special Assistant to the President
Gary Hughes Special Assistant to the General Manager
Ken Kravec Special Assistant to the General Manager
Ed Lynch Special Assistant to the General Manager
Paul Weaver Special Assistant to the General Manager
Mike Valarezo Special Assistant to the General Manager
Chuck Wasserstrom Manager, Baseball Information
Brad Kelley Major League Advance Scout
Jimmy Bank Traveling Secretary
Hayley DeWitte Executive Assistant to Vice President/General Manager
Naoto Masamoto Major League Video Coordinator
Ryuji Araki Japanese Interpreter/Media Assistant

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Cubs can't stop it, and online petitions don't mean much to people.

The team might condemn it, but they probably want to keep their distance. The best course of action is to complain to the vendor and the manufacturer.

Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager

by northsider on Apr 18, 2008 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who are faceless.

Stop by the booth. Let them know we think it’s f-d up.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The vendor isn't faceless...

you can’t buy one without seeing their faces. But, thankfully, it’s moot now.

Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager

by northsider on Apr 18, 2008 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I happily eat my words.

Looks like the T-shirts are being pulled. Awesome.

Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager

by northsider on Apr 18, 2008 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sharon Pannozzo no longer works for the Cubs.

Updated list…

Chicago Cubs
Director, Media Relations Peter Chase
Assistant Director, Media Relations Jason Carr
Coordinator, Media Services Katelyn Thrall
Media Relations Assistant Dani Holmes
Traveling Secretary Jimmy Bank

"When you have a fat friend there are no see-saws, only catapults." --Demetri Martin

by Reddevil on Apr 18, 2008 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks.

Let’s e-mail these folks. Maybe they can do something.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If it works.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Already sent my letter in

C’mon guys, let’s put an end to this.

by Peter the Cubbie on Apr 18, 2008 6:12 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I did too

I did too but see my post below. Nothing the Cubs can really do about it.

Someone called the radio today and suggested the Cubs buy all the tshirts but that would be making the POS profit from it.

There are a lot of dumb tshirts around the park. I’m sorry but Puck the Fardinals is plain dumb.

I wish I’d see more stuff that the is above the average intelligence of a 3 year old.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 18, 2008 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mine's in, too.

I’m tired of acquiescing to nebulous forces. If we putm enough pressure on, the Cubs will act. e-mail Peter Chase. Get this racist B.S. out of our park.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If they acted

If they did anything the ACLU would be all over their backsides. There’s nothing they can do.

Also find out who made the shirts and boycott them and every entity involved. And let them know.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 18, 2008 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the ACLU,

would be on the side of Dome, in this instance.

Here’s Len and Bob’s address: LenandBob@aol.com

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

a new civil liberty

the liberty to live one’s life without ever being offended by anything

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 18, 2008 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

an old civil iberty

the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

overdramatic.

this is ridiculous. it’s a joke on a shirt. a joke on a shirt does not kill, imprison or impede anyone’s pursuit of happiness.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 1:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're proabably right,

but put yourself in Dome’s shoes for a minute. It’s not that far fetched, even for the psuedo-libertarian crowd.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 21, 2008 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But it does...

perpetuate thinking that kills and impedes pursuit of happiness.

If you can enjoy your racism in a responsible manner, then noone can stop you.

But, racism, homophobia, classism, etc…those things have been the motive for many a crime.

These kinds of t-shirts only fan the fire for this kind of hate.

"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman

by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My brother

My brother saw this Wednesday and told me about it and I actually started a fanpost but I got so angry I could not put it in printable form for BCB.

I was thinking of emailing Al about this but was waiting to let myself cool down.

There is nothing the Cubs can do about this. They are powerless. I spoke to a lawyer in the family who’s a corporate lawyer (and a name most people in the field would recognize) and she said there is nothing the Cubs can do.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 18, 2008 6:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Email Len and Bob and Pat and Ron

The best thing to do frankly is email Len and Bob and Pat and Ron and if they speak out on the air against this and discourage people from buying it maybe people won’t.

Get the Score to start a campaign “Don’t Buy This Shirt” get WGN on it, get MVP.

Although anyone who would buy this shirt probably is too stupid to figure out how to turn on a tv or radio.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 18, 2008 6:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good call.

In addition to Peter Chase, let’s do this.

What are their e-mail addresses?

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have to look them up

Have to look them up.

Also start a boycott of this vendor period.

The biggest villain in this is the vendor.

The tshirt was probably offered to all of them. Give business to those who don’t sell it and make a point of it.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 18, 2008 6:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I have good news for everyone.

Just heard from Peter Chase. The Cubs got involved and, long story short, these T-shirts will no longer be sold.

Thanks to Peter and the Cubs for being so proactive about this.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 18, 2008 6:25 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I am very glad to hear that.

I knew the Cubs were able to get something done. Good job to everybody that put their two cents in as well.

by Peter the Cubbie on Apr 18, 2008 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They went out on a limb

They probably negotiated with him and hopefully didn’t give him a dime but they probably had to.

Sadly legally they couldn’t do a thing but they probably had to compromise.

The vendor is scum of the earth. Lower than the stuff on my shoe after I stepped in some dog poo.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 18, 2008 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And never been happier

I had spent a time and effort to put together emails of all the media outlets to start some kind of petition and writing drive to get a boycott advocated. Glad my work was not necessary.

But on a side note I saved the list to a word processing document in case it’s needed.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 18, 2008 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hope not

because now every scumbag will come out of the woodwork to try and sell their racist excrement in the sole attempt to get a settlement out of the Cubs.

by Great Odin's Raven on Apr 19, 2008 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Al

Thanks. They really took a chance to have a possible lawsuit about this from this jerk.

I was so angry about this Al when I heard about it my face literally got all red.

I still would like to start a boycott of this vendor and anyone involved in the production of the shirt.

Peter Chase seems like a really good guy to fill some very big shoes of Mr. McDonough.

I’m glad they could do something. I just hope they didn’t give the jerk one red cent but they probably did.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 18, 2008 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Awesome.

Good to see the Cubs be proactive on this issue.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 18, 2008 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great Job

now if only we could get rid of those “Win or lose we still booze” shirts that make Cubs fans look like they dont care about the game and only drinking at the game.

by AndHart120 on Apr 18, 2008 6:59 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Just when I thought it was safe

to come to BCB and not have to read a dairy about t-shirts….

by circuitclout on Apr 18, 2008 11:39 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Dont know if this has been coverd

but I bought the Cardinals take it in the Pujols shirt.. I thought it was in good fun adn it wasnt offensive. Howver the Kosuke shirt was blatantly offensive.. And I dont think much is offensive.

In the lst two days our fans have acted like idiots.

1. Throwing 20 balls on the field after Dunns HR
2. The clown fan who spilled beer on McClouth today…

"Hey Chicago what do you say the Cubs are gonna win today"

by fischisgod on Apr 19, 2008 4:56 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The Shirt and the ACLU

Both should be summarily rounded up, doused in gasoline, and set ablaze.

by SecondSon on Apr 19, 2008 10:46 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Tell us how you really feel.

Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager

by northsider on Apr 19, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Food for thought.....

About a week ago I ran into an old man in a Cub’s Hat, so of course I started talking Cub baseball with him. We talked about Lee, Ramirez, Wood, etc. When I got all excited about Fukudome, the old man sorta bit his lip. Then he told me how upsetting it was to see young people in the stands with those Kamakazee head bands on. He asked me, “Don’t they know how many of our guys were killed by those Kamakazee pilots?” It really tore him up that the Cub baseball culture which he loved would so blatantly dismiss the sacrifice so many men paid.

So if we are going to be outraged over the t-shirt because it degrades a culture, let’s also extend that outrage to the head bands since they also degrade a culture – our own.

by coral on Apr 19, 2008 10:47 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

argh

1. WWII was 60 years ago and we are over it.
2. Japan is one of our staunchest allies and most lucrative trading partners.
3. They aren’t “Kamakazee [sic] headbands”. They are hachimaki:

A hachimaki (鉢巻) is a stylized headband (bandana) in the Japanese culture, usually made of red or white cloth, worn as a symbol of perseverance or effort by the wearer. These are worn on many occasions, for example, by women giving birth, students in cram school, office workers, expert tradesmen taking pride in their work, bōsōzoku ( teen biker gangs) and even rioters. They were famously worn by kamikaze pilots in World War II. Japanese competitive eater Takeru Kobayashi wore a hachimaki for the Nathan’s hotdog eating competition.
Not everything is offensive.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 20, 2008 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

4. The Cubs' most famous personality is named "Harry Carey" for chrissakes.

that ship has sailed.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 20, 2008 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Waidaminit.

While I agree with you on the concept, you’re comparing the name “Harry Caray” to “harakiri”? That’s just… strange.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 21, 2008 4:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

?

you don’t think they, uh, sound a bit alike? they even require a disambiguation on wikipedia:

For the actor with a similar name, see Harry Carey. For the Japanese method of suicide known informally as hara-kiri, see seppuku.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And this is relevant why?

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 21, 2008 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i dunno.

n/t

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"we are over it' ?

not according to that old man we are not over it. do you think in 60yrs it will be appropriate to wear Al Queada symolism? why not wear nazi germany symbols, we trade with them too. Your block quote refers to the fact that these headbands were worn “famisously” by kamikaze pilots. To any wwII vet – it’s offensive. that is my point. don’t get so worked up over one area of concern while neglecting others.

by coral on Apr 21, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think we have to agree to disagree on this point.

i see the kamikaze themselves and the japanese people in general as far greater victims of the emperor than we as americans were. i will leave it up to them to decide which uses of their culture are offensive. regardless, even where something is agreed by all to be offensive (e.g., the t-shirts), it is up to the marketplace of ideas to sort it out, not the state.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fine

They can wear all the headbands they want to wear…in Japan. Here it’s offensive. Why do we always have to cow tow to other countries but when it comes to our customs, traditions and sensitivies we always defer to what others do in their country.

Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)

by Tackle Box on Apr 21, 2008 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

...the shirts are still being sold...

Walking up to the park today, Sunday, a vendor was hawking the shirt. He wasn’t in one of the souvenir stands/trailers. Instead, he was standing along the curb, yelling “Horry Kow! Five Dollah!” in a fake accent.

As I said I would earlier in this thread, I stopped and told him that the shirt was racist and dehumanizing. And he responded by calling me a “f—-ing jackass.” Classy guy. Anyway…

Hopefully, this was the same vendor that was mentioned above, trying to quickly and clandestinely sell off the surplus. Anybody else notice the shirt being sold today or yesterday?

by LaddieRenfroe on Apr 20, 2008 7:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

It wasn't.

The one I saw on Saturday was a woman. Thanks for mentioning this—I’ll pass the word along to the Cubs. They definitely want it stopped.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 20, 2008 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

on Saturday...

... i saw both a female selling these shirts by the firehouse as well as a male selling by the corner near the El (where you have to deal with the dregs hawking tickets).

DmL

by dmlichte on Apr 20, 2008 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think I saw the same woman you did.

She was on Waveland, down from the firehouse.

I did NOT see anyone selling these on Sunday, though I know others did.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 21, 2008 4:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw the woman Sunday

she didnt say anything to me when I commented.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 21, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

how are the cubs going to stop it?

assuming they buy the guy off, won’t someone else just make them?

someone should just pass a law prohibiting people from making fun of other people.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 20, 2008 10:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

What!?!

“someone should just pass a law prohibiting people from making fun of other people.”

That’s about as elementry school a thing as I’ve ever heard. Next you’ll tell me we can’t play dodge ball or tag.

Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)

by Tackle Box on Apr 20, 2008 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

/sarc

n/t

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 20, 2008 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was hoping it was sarcasm

but couldn’t tell. My bad.

Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)

by Tackle Box on Apr 20, 2008 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Am I the only one that is disappointed by how offended everyone is by the shirts (or “outraged by the outrage” as Senator Inhoffe famously said re Abu Ghraib)? Sure, it’s lowbrow, offensive, etc. Maybe even racist (the horror!!!1).

But what is the BFD? If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 20, 2008 10:48 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes, you're the only one.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 21, 2008 4:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately, Al,

he’s not, and that’s why these shirts continue to be bought and sold. It comes down to a basic respect for other human beings; one either has it, or they don’t. Obviously, many don’t.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 21, 2008 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well said.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 21, 2008 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you support his implication

that i lack a basic respect for human beings?

i feel like i’m taking crazy pills.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you think that I lack a basic respect for human beings

because i support the right of the vendor to make and sell an offensive shirt and your right to not buy it? the hyperbole in this thread is unsurpassed.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

See dmlichte's reply below.

He put it better than I ever could. There’s more to life than the hand of the free market.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 21, 2008 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

because...

... it further helps spread a stereotype. Its insensitive and ya, some would call it racist. I know some people really love going to the mat whenever they see something being done in the name of political correctness. But if the shirt is offensive to an ethnic group of people, why do it? Why not try to elevate ourselves to a higher standard? Why not get rid of something that gains its humor by very clearly putting down a group of people?

Like fans throwing balls onto the field or dumping beer onto a player’s head, it makes us all look like idiots.

DmL

by dmlichte on Apr 21, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But if the shirt is offensive to an ethnic group of people, why do it?

that is an argument towards not making and selling the shirt yourself. i wouldnt make or sell the shirt, nor buy or wear it. i don’t think anyone is actually in favor of the shirts.

Why not get rid of something that gains its humor by very clearly putting down a group of people?

how are you going to get rid of it? pay the guy off? then someone else will make them. i guess the cubs or someone else could buy the copyright or mark or argue that the image is a misappropriation of an existing copyright or mark.

Like fans throwing balls onto the field or dumping beer onto a player’s head, it makes us all look like idiots.

No, actually, it’s not like that, for several reasons. 1st, those things are actions. the shirt is words. words can only affect you if you let them. 2nd, those things are against the law. the shirt is within the law (unless there is a copyright or trademark issue). 3rd, those things affect and delay the game. the shirt does neither.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

why are you arguing this?

i told you I dont want to buy a shirt—-please stop trying to sell them to me.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 21, 2008 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Youre joking right?

Why dont you just post a picture of yourself wearing it already.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 21, 2008 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't buy one

much less wear one.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

muhammed cartoons

i guess i don’t even need to ask, but how did the offense brigade on here feel about the muhammed cartoons?

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 11:42 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The cartoons

Your comparing riots and murders and death threats the danish received over those to asking people to stop selling them?

I did think the muslims had the right to be offended by those and saw why they were. But there’s a difference between rioting and killing over being offended and asking the Cubs to take them away.

I don’t think the Cubs murdered the vendor.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 21, 2008 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

wasn't trying to compare the reaction

was curious how you all felt about the muhammed cartoons. specifically, did the danish newspaper that printed the cartoons, and the subsequent newspapers and magazines that reprinted them, not have the right to do so? is freedom of expression always limited where the idea expressed offends some?

i don’t think so. in fact, i agree with Dr. Haynes that the right to free speech is the right to offend. one doesn’t need a “right” to protect one when in agreement with everyone. one only needs it when what one says is unpopular or “offensive.”

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

what exactly are you trying to argue?

that you think these shirts are OK and should be socially acceptable? Because of free speech yada yada yada…..

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 21, 2008 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i've always been annoyed by how offended

so many people get over so many things. the echo chamber in here regarding how abhorrent, racist, etc. these shirts are is particularly annoying to me. beyond annoying and downright scary is the fascist strain of a lot of these comments about how the vendor should be “shut down”, implying some sort of state action.

i’m trying to argue that the vendor is free to make and sell the shirts (barring copyright or trademark issues) and you all are free to (a) not buy them; and (b) peacably tell the vendor what you think of him. i’m pretty sure that you reading my comments as anything saying that the “shirts are OK” or “should be socially acceptable” is an intentional misreading.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes you are correct

although the overstimulus FROM THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE specifically is because WE the Cub fans are over over getting lumped in with idiots. Idiots who throw balls on the field, bigger idiots that throw beer cups on the field, idiots that dump beer on players, idiots that steal catchers helmets and more and more and more, and now the racist type t-shirt.

We the ‘good’ Cub fans, or at least myself, AM SICK OF IT-—-—Im sick of the beer garden, the bleacher drunks, the frat crap, the tossing on the field—and each thing just makes things grow exponentially.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 21, 2008 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LSA

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 21, 2008 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

thank science

for good Cubs fans like yourself.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where is the line?

IF I’m not mistaken and someone correct me if I’m wrong, but the Chicago Cubs told the vendor to stop selling these shirts because the Bear used is a Chicago Cubs trademark?

Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen

by lemon20pie on Apr 21, 2008 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

whatever they told them

i saw them selling them yesterday, ill look tonight on the way to the game too.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Apr 21, 2008 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

if the shirt dilutes a Cubs mark

or otherwise violates a mark or copyright owned by the Cubs, then the vendor should (and probably will) be shut down and forced to pay damages to the Cubs. that doesn’t really solve anything, though; the vendor could just come up with a design that doesn’t use a Cubs mark.

would you all be less offended if the shirt just had the despicable, abhorrent, unspeakable etc. etc. phrase on the front with no logo and Fukudome 1 on the back?

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What a ridiculous question.

So what you’re saying is that you’re NOT offended by this shirt??? Making an argument for why this shirt should be allowed to be sold in the name of Free Speech is one thing but to say that you don’t understand why some people would be offended by this shows how insensitive you are towards other cultures. My Sister-in-Law is Japanese and I asked her what she thought of the shirt and she was stunned and was naturally angered that this kind of stuff is still alive and well and even more angered how people could buy this garbage and how some people don’t seem to understand why someone would be upset about it or just brush it aside as “lighten up, it’s just a joke, dude”.

Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen

by lemon20pie on Apr 21, 2008 11:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

aarrrgghhhh

i’ve tried to avoid fisking but i just cant help it with this comment.

So what you’re saying is that you’re NOT offended by this shirt???

uhhh, no. i asked if you all would be less offended if the shirt was the same without the bastardization of the Cubs logo. the reason for me asking this should have been clear in the context of my comment; i had just stated that even if the Cubs could shut down this shirt because of an intellectual property issue, that wouldn’t really solve the problem; as long as people are buying it, someone will sell it without misappropriating the IP of the Cubs. See here for example.

i don’t think that shirt is any less offensive merely because the Cubs logo is gone. maybe you all do. it was an honest question.

further, in this thread i’ve stipulated or implied the offensiveness of the shirt several times (see here, here and here, for example). i think you are smarter than this, in which case, like i told hammer, i believe you are being dishonest in thinking that i am defending the shirt itself instead of the vendors right to make and sell it.

Making an argument for why this shirt should be allowed to be sold in the name of Free Speech is one thing but to say that you don’t understand why some people would be offended by this shows how insensitive you are towards other cultures.
Now you make the jump from accusing me of not being personally and subjectively offended by the shirt to the unthinkable mindcrime of saying that the shirt is not objectively offensive. i would not presume to judge for other people what should or should not be offensive to them, and a fair reading of my comments in this thread would support that. in fact, that’s my whole point. it’s up to each individual to decide what is offensive to him or her and choose whether to subject themselves to such things.
My Sister-in-Law is Japanese
oh yeah?!! well, like colbert, I have a black friend. make sure she is never subjected to the horrors of the christmas story or chappelle’s racial draft. one can only hope that all copies of these are destroyed so that nobody may be offended by them.

is your sis-in-law at all offended by the paternalistic, offended-by-proxy attitude on display here? can’t japanese-americans specifically and asian-americans in general take care of themselves? i think so.

she was stunned and was naturally angered . . . how some people don’t seem to understand why someone would be upset about it or just brush it aside as "lighten up, it’s just a joke, dude".
i can only assume that this is a reference to me. and i have stated that its just a “joke on a shirt”. so fair enough. but that was in response to gary varsho’s laughably absurd statement that the shirt impedes fukudome’s right to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” again, your apparent failure to construe comments with any context at all betrays either your dishonesty or poor reading comprehension.

this thread has really been sad for me. i can only hope that BCB has somehow attracted a disproportionate ratio of holier-than-thou, fascist PC-police.

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 22, 2008 2:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The point is, I'm offended because

someone is trying to link racism (something I don’t support) with the Cubs (something I support).

The Friedman crowd is partially right, there’s nothing we really can do rather than speak with our wallets and tell the vendors what we think. But, that logic only works when it’s someone selling a product with a “new idea” that is independent of “old ideas”.

The Cubs, my friends, are an “old idea”. By trying to piggy-back a racist message onto an established ballclub, these vendors are in the wrong, and should be stopped.

"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman

by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 1:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hear, hear!

And for all the “echo-chamber”, “hyperbole” labels we’re getting, certain others’ warmed-over Freidmanism is completely uninspired and myopic.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 21, 2008 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

much more inspired

to just agree with everyone, eh?

I'm the guy in the blue under armour shirt

by joeschmitt on Apr 21, 2008 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just as all Friedmanites

can ever muster is, well,the same exact line. Just because you’re the only one here doesn’t make your milquetoast profits-before-people rhetoric any less tired and clicheed.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Apr 21, 2008 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, you must be right.

Few agree with you.

"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman

by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

two separate issues

aren’t there really two issues here? whether or not the shirt is offensive, and whether or not the cubs shutting the sales down violates anyone’s rights?

as far as offensive goes, it’s a subjective question. so there’s no point in arguing it. i can see why it bothers people. offensive, as i said in another post, is just the wrong word for me. i don’t get offended by stupid people and their t-shirts. i can agree that the shirt is stupid, and in poor taste.

as for the second issue, as a bit of a freidmanite myself (i know, gooner and freidmanite…) i’m not sure he would have a dog in this race. we’re not talking about the government shutting down a vendor. if mayor daley made the cops shut this guy down for being offensive, i’d be right there with jeschmitt storming city hall. well, in spirit, anyway.

but what happened here, for me, is a perfectly acceptable solution because the market worked. the cubs leaned on a vendor and asked him to stop selling that shirt. they basically said “we have turned a blind eye to you making use of our copyrights, profiting from our image and that of our employees (which are protected as well). if you would like to have us continue to allow you to do so, you will stop selling this t-shirt. if you don’t, you will have the full weight of our legal department zealously defending each and everyone of our trademarks that you’ve infringed upon in the past. if you think you have a right because these shirts are ‘satire’ or you’ve changed the mark enough…well, hope you have a good lawyer.” that’s the way the market works, isn’t it? welcome to the big leauges…sure, you can’t wipe out the t-shirts. but you can make it hard on the larger vendors. works for me.

by billywan on Apr 22, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

It’s akin to YouTube. Technically, you have no real right to use copyrighted music on YouTube for your “Backyard Slam Dunk Mix #2” or “Top 10 Kerry Wood Strikeouts” videos.

But, we all know that people use copyrighted music for this purpose.

The music companies really only get involved in shutting it down when “Welcome to the Jungle” is the soundtrack for a sordid confrontation between you, 3 goats, a roll of duct tape and a Harlequin Romance Novel. Ya dig?

So, the Cubs have been nice on the “nice” shirts. Plenty of Harry Caray logos on cheap t-shirts. No questions asked.

But, when things get dicey, the Cubs then choose to use their power. We, as consumers, can voice our opinions on when they should do so. We have. They have.

"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman

by Bildo1805 on Apr 22, 2008 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

For the record

One of my closest friends moved to San Francisco last year but before she did she was very active in the Japanese community in Chicago.

I spoke to her last night about this and she said these type of things are just about the most offensive things to Japanese people.

And also they are offended by the vendor saying some Asian guy was involved.

Lumping all Asian people together would be like one of us making a tshirt poking fun at Italians and saying it was okay because “A European guy” made the tshirt despite the guy being French.

Of course remember Mike North calling Choi a “chinaman”. He probably calls Fukudome the same. People like North, the vendor and others who think this tshirt are okay think all Asian people are the same.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 22, 2008 9:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Also

What bothers me is there have been a few radio shows that have criticized the Cubs for trampling on freedom of speech.

A. It’s making use of their logo.

B. Inside Wrigley they have the right and SHOULD have the right to restrict clothing. If they wanted to make us all wear dresses or 3 piece suits they could.

C. The Cubs do and SHOULD have the right to have say over how images clearly associated with the team are used.

D. Wouldn’t it be nice if people were actually funny and creative?

I thought a nice idea would maybe have Holy Cow Cubs Win over the logo in Japanese lettering. That is creative.

E. It is laughable people actually think the guy made the shirt to honor Fukudome. Right and I’m the Queen of England and Al my King.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 22, 2008 9:45 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

What's next

What’s next on the vendors list of tshirts?

One making fun of Lee’s heritage?

Zambrano?

Ramirez?

(Although the vendor is the type that thinks all people of hispanic descent are the same and would have no clue Zambrano and Ramirez’’s (Venezuelan and Dominican) are different.)

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 22, 2008 9:48 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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