Lineup Discussion

by lilkimmer77 on Apr 1, 2008 11:38 PM CDT Comment 37 comments

I know it's about as early as it gets, but to be honest, I never have really liked this lineup that Lou is throwing out there right now. And for multiple reasons. I think the fundamental theory of a baseball line-up AND with the personnel we have, we're ultimately just hurting ourselves in the long run. And just to be clear, this post would be up even if the Cubbies were 1-0. Gimme a chance :) Hear me out.

I'm a Ryan Theriot fan, believe me, but he's not built (yet) to be a major league leadoff hitter. I am all for having some speed in the top spot, but his OBP just isn't good enough to get it done. Which brings me to Fonz. Alf as a leadoff hitter is just a unique situation, I think we all know what he offers and "dis-offers" with his services in the #1 spot. I also don't think he should be there. I think the OPTIMAL choice for this spot is Fukudome. His career OBP in japan was ridiculous, and by what we've seen from him thusfar, I really don't see anything changing in that respect.

This is what it comes down to...

Defensive baseball teams feel stress when there are people on base. It makes them have many more mental thoughts before a pitch (which I admit the majority of big leaguers have no problem with) but it also opens up holes, but most importantly makes the pitcher feel less comfortable. Not only would Kosuke be on base non-stop, but he can also run and why not give the guy as many at-bats as physically possible in a baseball game. Guy's a stud.

Given this I really wouldn't mind Fonz in the 2-hole, but again, I think we could do better. IMO, the 2 spot is the most important one of all. With Fuku on base in front, if we just put someone there that we know can handle the bat, it'd be money in the bank. Maybe a Dero who we know won't hesitate a second to give up his at-bat to SACRIFICE for the team. Anyone see Fonz doing that? Didn't think so.

So how about something like this...

1. Fuku

2. Dero

3. Lee

4. Aram

5. Alf

6.Soto

7. Riot

8. Pie

I'm sorry, but Fonz can just shut his trap if he's gonna start complaining about hitting 5th, which I'm not necessarily saying he would. But the idea is to win games and I truly think something like this is our best recipe for success.

Poll

Do you agree?

Yes

25 votes

No

20 votes

Maybe So

13 votes

58 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Comments

My problem

with that is Fuku leading off. If he swings like that (which he won't all year, and its only one game) he needs to have RBI opportunities. Also, I would hate to see him jerked around the lineup. Let him get good and comfy.

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Apr 1, 2008 11:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I completely understand, BUT

I wasn't basing this argument off of his first game experience. Instead his OBP numbers which are just ridiculous. Both in Japan AND his projected stats for the year.

"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me

by lilkimmer77 on Apr 2, 2008 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was thinking the same thing.

The only problem I had with it was I thought pitchers would throw Soriano much more junk if he had Soto/Riot/Pie behind him instead of Lee/Ramirez/Fuku. If you move Fukudome to leadoff, this is what I'd go with:

Fukudome
TheRiot
Lee
Ramirez
Soriano
DeRo
Soto
Pie

With an OBP machine ahead of him, The Riot's ability to bunt and make contact (hit and run) actually come in useful, in spite of his not-so-good OBP. Soriano has a very solid hitter behind him, so he should be just fine.

In Bo I trust.

by Schwa on Apr 1, 2008 11:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I would

then hit Soriano 3rd, if you wanted to go that route. I think Lee is much more intimidating that Derosa

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Apr 1, 2008 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That argument makes no sense

"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me

by lilkimmer77 on Apr 2, 2008 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Umm

yeah, it actually makes a lot of sense. If you put Soriano third, and bump everyone else down a spot it would be better than hitting him in front of Derosa. Think about it, say it outloud...would Soriano see more pitches with Lee, or DeRosa behind him? No way to argue it, he would see more with Lee behind him- higher average, more home runs and doubles than DeRosa. If you're going to say things don't make sense, explain why; because it does make sense.

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Apr 2, 2008 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I like that too

"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me

by lilkimmer77 on Apr 2, 2008 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Those 2 pretty much interchangable

"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me

by lilkimmer77 on Apr 2, 2008 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like that but I would...

maybe switch DeRo and Theriot, higher OBP...IMO or maybe have Sori bat 4th and ARam 5th...

You ARE freaking out MAN!

by crw89 on Apr 2, 2008 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But dont you think

That's the perfect reason to bat him 1st? Who would you put leadoff? Fonz 5th absolutely but with your argument Fuku should be 1. I was thinking then we could have a guy in the 2 spot whom we (as fans and the Cubs as a team) wouldn't mind SACRIFICING for the big boppers.

"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me

by lilkimmer77 on Apr 2, 2008 12:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Noone on this team,

I would've traded for a lead off hitter in the off-season.

Like I said, I wouldn't have a problem with DOme leading off, but ideally I would like him hitting 2nd. There is no prototypical lead off hitter on this team.

by lemon20pie on Apr 2, 2008 12:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well I'm trying

Not to talk about what we could of done in the off-season. Focus a little bit on the player we actually have on this team. No disrespect but no point in you contributing if your gonna say no one...

"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me

by lilkimmer77 on Apr 2, 2008 1:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

(Sigh) This would be so much easier with Roberts...

...or another bona fide leadoff hitter, especially a lefty. But going with what we have, I think you need to take the following factors into consideration:

1) Get Dome comfortable. If he produces, the domino effect on others will be significant.
2) Of all our thumpers, Ramirez needs protection the least.
3) Of all our thumpers, Soriano needs protection the most.
4) Is it important to break up the righties in the middle of the order? Me thinks yes, but me also thinks Lou doesn't care so much about this.

Taking those in order...
1) Dome is probably our ideal #2 hitter, assuming we had an ideal leadoff hitter. We don't so I'm not wedded to Dome 2nd, but if he's not 2nd, I'd put him 3rd.
2) This is probably the easiest decision to make - Ramirez bats 5th. He protects who's ever in front of him and it doesn't matter who's behind him.
3) Soriano either bats 3rd between Dome and Lee, or 4th, between Dome and Ramirez.
4) I like Lee 2nd and Dome 3rd, which breaks up the righties a little bit. But the numbers would probably tell me that breaking up righties is not significant, so that means Dome can stay 2nd.

So against RH pitchers, I'd go (break-up-righties lineup in parentheses)
- Theriot
- Dome (or Lee)
- Soriano (or Dome)
- Lee (or Soriano)
- Ramirez
- DeRosa
- Soto
- Pie
- pitcher

and against LH pitchers:
- Johnson
- Dome
- Soriano
- Lee
- Ramirez
- DeRosa
- Soto
- Theriot
- pitcher

Oh, one last thought - just accept the fact that we'll get minimal offense from Soto and Pie this year. Given their positions, their defense is of way more value to the club than their offense. This way, anything they produce at the plate will be gravy.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Apr 2, 2008 1:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The one thing

I don't like about this is that I'm a big fan of sacrificing and I'd like to see that coming from the 2 spot when the leadoff hitter gets on. I certainly don't want Fuku laying down any sac bunts this year

"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me

by lilkimmer77 on Apr 2, 2008 2:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

so sacrifice somewhere else

if your leadoff guy gets on, wouldn't you rather move him over with a hit or a walk, instead of an out? Scrappy #2 hitters who will do whatever it takes to move a guy over are great if you're short on quality hitters, but that's not the case with this team. With the power we have in the middle of the order, I don't want to automatically give up outs if I have better options. And Dome (or Lee) is definitely a better option.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Apr 2, 2008 2:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Point taken and of course

I would rather move a hitter over with a hit or a walk. But chances are that's not going to happen. Wanna know why? Cause in baseball if you get a hit just over 30% of the time there's a chance you may get into the hall of fame. So if I have a guy like Fukudome on base leading off a game (and he gets on via a very good OBP track record), absolutely, 100% of the time I'd be willing to give up an out and give Lee or Aram a chance to knock him in with a single.

"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me

by lilkimmer77 on Apr 2, 2008 2:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

problem with...........

....accepting minimal or no offense from Pie and theriot is that we would have 3 nearly automatic outs in the lineup. IMHO, that won't be enough to win the division unless Lee, Ram, etc have career type years.

Pie is key............we need more than defense from him. If Theriot conyinues to hit like he did last sept............look for cedeno to get a shot

by plenz on Apr 2, 2008 7:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I really like

the idea of Soriano hitting fourth behind Lee and ahead of Ramirez. As ballhawk said, Ramirez requires the least protection, while Soriano requires the most protection. IMO, Ramirez is our most dangerous hitter, especially until Lee shows that his power has returned, so putting Soriano immediately in front of Ramirez is likely to give Soriano the most hittable pitches.

I also agree that Dome needs to get comfortable, he is too important to our offense at this point to keep moving him around. In an ideal world (with our current roster) I would bat Dome lead off with Theriot right behind him. That puts our best on-base threat in the place where we need the OBP, with a contact hitter behind him. Theriot batting second means that his outs may be more "productive" than they would with him in the leadoff spot.

My line-up would look like this (ideally):

Dome
Theriot
Lee
Soriano
Ramirez
Dero
Soto
Pie
pitcher

by gwood on Apr 2, 2008 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like that alot

With putting ramirez behind soriano and lee, if FukU and theriot get on base, and lee and soriano can not bring them in, then we have ramirez.

THIS IS THE YEAR!!

by BadBillyGoat on Apr 2, 2008 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Soriano

CANNOT hit 5th w/dero or soto behind him he will be devoured by curveballs!

how's this:

1. Fukudome
2. TheRiot
3. DLee
4. Soriano
5. Aramis
6. Dero
7. Soto
8. Pie

Nobody talks about Soriano hitting 4th, maybe cuz he's not an "rbi guy." Let me tell ya - he has as much pop as anybody in the league, but he just needs to see the most hittable pitches. lets check some scenarios:

If either fukudome or theriot get on base (or both especially) people will HAVE to pitch to Dlee with Sori AND ram coming up. If niether gets on, but Dlee does, Soriano is going to see good pitches to hit b/c ram is coming and if both were on for ram that could make for a huge inning. If none get on, Sori leads off with A-ram behind him - i think he will see better pitches than when he actually was leading off in front of theriot.

I have a tough time seeing why this wouldn't work - any thoughts, positive or negative?

Soriano a lo profuuundo-NO-NO-NO-NO! (Spanish for "Soriano hits a home run!)

by CubbyBlues on Apr 2, 2008 1:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I like that

The riot isn't anything more then average leading off.

"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me

by lilkimmer77 on Apr 2, 2008 2:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And I agree

about the Soriano 5 thing but I guess the way I looked at it was that the bases would usually be clogged when Fonz is up. Guess I'm too much of an optimist :)

"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me

by lilkimmer77 on Apr 2, 2008 2:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

actually

I like this lineup a lot.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on Apr 2, 2008 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

mine

Fukudome
Lee
Soriano
Ramirez
Pie/DeRosa
DeRosa/Pie
Soto
Theriot
P

by wojo on Apr 2, 2008 2:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Also like the looks of this one too

"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me

by lilkimmer77 on Apr 2, 2008 2:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yup mine's quite similar

but how bout

fukudome
lee
soriano
ramirez
soto/derosa
derosa/soto
pie
theriot

this gives our best players the most at bats, puts some speed in front of fukudome/lee (at the bottom) gives pie some protection and gives theriot as few abs as possible.

by doug dascenzo's change-up on Apr 2, 2008 2:59 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

I like this one, with a move up for Pie if he earns it.

Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager

by northsider on Apr 2, 2008 3:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

DeRosa batting 2nd

makes sense from an OBP perspective, but due to his relatively slow speed, he is a GIDP threat (only Aramis hit into more DPs last year). Plus, because he has some power too, do you really want him bunting or giving himself up on hits the other way?

Fukudome
Lee
Soriano
Ramirez
DeRosa
Soto
Pie
Theriot

I know people don't like having all four of those guys at the bottom, but I'd like to give the four at the top the most PAs. Also, I have some faith in Pie being productive this year, and think he could eventually hit higher in the order.

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Apr 2, 2008 6:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Fatal flaw

I would go and put Ramirez and DeRosa back-to-back, after my initial comment!

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Apr 2, 2008 6:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Soriano can't bat 5th.

You thought Jose Hernandez struck out a lot?

Wait until Soriano sees all breaking stuff.

What about this?
Fukudome
D-Ro
Soriano
Ramirez
Lee
Theriot (or Soto)
Soto (or Theriot)
Pie

Let's be honest, I'm not sure D-Lee is getting back to pre-wrist injury form. But he can still hit the ball, just not for the power he used to.

Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!

by Bildo1805 on Apr 2, 2008 9:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Geez,

Wow,

After one game we are already looking to change the line up?

Listen, we have a Hall of Fame manager in the dugout, this isnt the guy chewing on the toothpick, its Lou Pinella out there. Give it some time.

"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager

by Galvan316 on Apr 2, 2008 9:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

It is fun

to discuss though.

by gwood on Apr 2, 2008 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just discussing...

like I have been since ST. I'm actually pretty happy with the lineup as is, just think it needs a couple tweaks. Most of those tweaks have to do with us having two bad OBP guys at the top of our lineup.

Haiku-a-Day for Fukudome, helping Fuku understand the American game, 17 syllables at a time. Visit cubshaikus.blogspot.com!

by Bildo1805 on Apr 2, 2008 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please read the whole fanpost

And just to be clear, this post would be up even if the Cubbies were 1-0

"The Cubs can't be stopped" -- Me

by lilkimmer77 on Apr 2, 2008 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe Reed Johnson

I don't know if we've seen enough of Reed Johnson to know whether he can help out in the leadoff spot. Other than that, you can't manufacture a leadoff man in this lineup. We need more patient hitters. Bat Theriot 8th.

by AboutTheCubs on Apr 2, 2008 10:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I think...

That management should do anything in their power to get Brian Roberts.. After watching this pathetic lineup we need him...BAD

THIS IS THE YEAR!!

by BadBillyGoat on Apr 2, 2008 3:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The problem here...

...is simple. Your 1 and 2 hitters are very important pieces that need to help generate your offense throughout the long season. And no, I don't want to hear a leadoff guy only leads off to start the game. What is most important, is the 1 and 2 hole guys ALWAYS hit in front of your 3,4 and 5 hitters, and they need to get on base and be able to run a little bit.

Now, the Cubs have a great 2-hole hitter on the roster - Fukudome, and I think Lou will put him there sooner rather than later. Putting Fukudome at 2 will help, but the team does not have a player with the skills to be a consistantly good leadoff hitter. As is, the offense will be streaky throughout the season and will be more prone to cold streaks (like last year).

I know Theriot got a couple of hits today, but his bat is slow, and it is looking much like it did late last year. You may be able to get by with this for a while, but it will rear it's ugly head at some point and become an issue.

There is a reason the Cubs went after Roberts and that is because Piniella and Hendry know they are in stop-gap mode in regards to leadoff. After a while, you may see Johnson get a go at it, especially, if Theriot is struggling and Pie is not contributing on the offensive side.

I am by no means panicing, because they will still win their share of games as is. But, if they want to be a true favorite in the NL, this is a hole that could hold them back.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Apr 2, 2008 5:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs