Theriot/Cedeno vs. Who?
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 11:43 AM CDT
52 comments
There's been much debate in the post threads about who should be our everyday shortstop. I'll reserve who I think should be the everyday guy, but the debate is interesting, if nothing else.
Using our GM hat, and not our Fantasy GM hat, who should be the Cubs SS? Do we have him on our roster currently? Remember, as posted on this site a few days ago, you can't just "click, click and click" and trade for a blue-chipper.
Here's some players that would just be silly to mention, because of their value to their current team.
- Hanley Ramirez
- Jose Reyes
- Derek Jeter
- Jimmy Rollins
- Troy Tulowitzki
- Stephen Drew
That leaves a smattering of names out there that could be a solution. Granted, I'm not saying trades with the other team would EVER work out.
- Rafael Furcal
- Miguel Tejada (the argument for this would be "should have pounced in the winter)
- Michael Young
- Edgar Renteria (daily spikings of Mike Fontenot may spark the little man for another one-month binge)
- Orlando Cabrera (see Tejada, Miguel)
- JJ Hardy
- Jhonny Peralta
- Khalil Greene
- Felipe Lopez
- Julio Lugo
I'm pretty sure I've included all names that would be considered better or equal to what we have in Theriot/Cedeno. Feel free to correct.
I'd love to see replies that include who you think we should have gone after in the winter/who we should go after this year, and what you think it would take to get those guys. Also, I'd love to see replies the other way on why you might think we're good with what we have (along with whether you favor Theriot or Cedeno).
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Now this should be a good topic
I myself am a fan of both guys, but ultimately I think Onedec SHOULD win the job. But if Riot keeps up what he did last night, that will be a pretty tough sell.
Forever devoted
by Fukumania on Apr 21, 2008 11:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
why do you guys call him Onedec again?
ronny should be given a chance. he can only get better.
by xene on Apr 21, 2008 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he's really turning it around.
Cedeno backwards is onedec. Cedeno is a popular euphemism for four letter words ‘round these parts.
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget Jed Lowrie
Switch-hitting middle-IF prospect, blocked in Boston unless they eat Lugo’s contract. I covet Lowrie.
by DGU on Apr 21, 2008 11:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ah. This is what I'm looking for here.
Are they just waiting for Lugo to die, though, then play Lowrie and Pedrioia up the middle?
What, in your opinion would it take to get Lowrie?
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure what Boston wants/needs
There was a rumor they liked Murton, but Murton is not enough for Lowrie.
And they may indeed prefer to dump Lugo and keep Lowrie, although some believe Lowrie is more of a 2B than a SS long-term and the Sox are defense-conscious. So, I still hope.
by DGU on Apr 21, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would make two MI prospects for the Sox
that are more 2B than SS (rumor has it noone thinks Pedrioa has the arm/range for short).
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For what it's worth
I read somewhere that Boston is thinking about benching Lugo and letting Lowrie start at SS. Can’t remember when I saw that but I do remember reading that.
by McRipper on Apr 21, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
‘twould be interesting.
They could move Lugo, then have Cora/Thurston for cover.
The next question: who would the Sox want in exchange? What are their needs?
I say their needs lie within their pitching.
So: Lugo, career .271 SS. 33 years old. Worth the upgrade? Or is he simply a “name” and not that much better than Theriot/Cedeno?
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good question
I would say no. Firstly, he’s a tad bit overrated. Secondly, he’s overpaid. And thirdly, I don’t think he brings that much more than Theriot or Cedeno. With the way Theriot and now Cedeno are starting to play, it’s kind of hard to justify making that move. I think we should just sit and wait till the deadline and see what’s available because I don’t think we should mess with this success we’ve been having. Just my thoughts.
by McRipper on Apr 22, 2008 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
Yuniesky Betancourt would look really good in Cubbie Blue.
"I lof to hit de home ron!"
by Tekboy on Apr 21, 2008 11:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What would it take to get him?
Would the improvement be better than Theriot/Cedeno?
These are the things I’m interested in.
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and Chin Lung Hu with the Dodgers
He’s got great defensive skills and a bat that came alive last year in the minors – I’m not sure I believe in the bat in the majors, but I know people who do believe.
by DGU on Apr 21, 2008 11:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This, and the Lowrie comment to a lesser extent begs the question:
Do you think we’re better off trading for a “top prospect” and playing them every day? This is assuming such a player would come with mental mistakes as well as streaky hitting.
Do we have the prospects to trade for players like this? Is it worth it?
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this point, I'm just fleshing out your list a little bit.
The other names I think could play SS at least as well as Theriot defensively and hit better than him against RHP include Maicer Izturis, Ben Zobrist, and Wilson Betemit.
Also, I’m not sure why you left Bobby Crosby off this list – probably because of the fear that if we traded anything of value for him, he would get injured in his first game with the Cubs.
As for the begged question – I’d take Hu or Lowrie over Theriot if they were free for sure. I don’t think I’d take Atlanta’s Brent Lillibridge. Once you add the trade cost, well, then the question is a little more difficult.
by DGU on Apr 21, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Much appreciated on the added names.
It was a surface-scratching list, to be sure. I tried to keep prospects off, because I wanted this to be a conversation about the here and now. I’m not sure we could pay the price warranted for a SS prospect.
Also, I argue that the Cubs can and should try to win NOW.
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
I think you did a good job listing the names in general. I would simply argue that Jed Lowrie is several times more likely to help the Cubs win NOW than Felipe Lopez.
One of the reasons I think Lowrie is the Best option given what it would likely cost in trade for any of the options listed is that I’m assuming you keep at least one of Cedeno/Theriot and if Lowrie really does struggle, you can always go back to the status quo.
Here’s the PECOTA for Lowrie: .261/.336/.413 cf. Riot .270/.330/.347 cf. Cedeno .279/.327/.425 for those who care about those sorts of things – and for those who’d notice that Cedeno is practically identical to Lowrie – I’d say, “Yeah, but Lou is bound and determined to get another LH bat in the lineup and you can still platoon Lowrie with either of our SSs and bump their hitting line up that way.”
by DGU on Apr 21, 2008 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be a little leery with Lowrie
for this year. However, I do agree that between Lowrie and Lopez, I’d consider Lowrie. Of course, Lopez will be a lot cheaper.
by rlpete on Apr 21, 2008 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I wouldn't bank on Lowrie being Pedroia redux or anything
certainly not right out of the gate and if he gets traded mid-season, but all in all, I think Lowrie is a better bet to produce this season than Theriot over 150 games.
by DGU on Apr 21, 2008 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for not mentioning Jack Wilson
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Apr 21, 2008 12:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No Vizquel!! Almost as bad as Uribe.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 21, 2008 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cabrera
That’s a guy the Cubs should have gone out and got. Too bad the Sox are so hot right now because they may think they have a chance to win this year as well. I was hoping they would be out of it (for other reasons, too) so they would want to dump his salary.
by dr stabbingworth on Apr 21, 2008 12:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Adam Everett is a guy that's better than what's on hand.
He was available, but I doubt he still is.
by cwyers on Apr 21, 2008 12:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Only started 9 games this year for the Twins.
Lifetime .247 hitter.
Great defender.
Worth the switch?
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His defense...
...may be the single-most underrated thing in all of baseball currently. I know he’s an awful hitter, but he’s simply amazing with the glove. He may well be able to save a team 30 runs a season out in the field with his glove – and I’m not simply making those numbers up, either, that’s based on the play-by-play data.
Now, he’s apt to cost you at least ten runs a season compared to the average shortstop on offense, so he’s not as valuable as his defense alone would suggest. But it’s not like we have a plus offensive shortstop on hand already.
by cwyers on Apr 21, 2008 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems like he would come cheap from the Twins,
given they’ve played Matt Tolbert (9), Adam Everett (9), Nick Punto (3) all at short this year.
What do you think it would take to get him? Is he worth the 2.8 million he’s making this year? I also think he’s a free agent at the end of the season…is that worth thinking about one way or the other?
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everett is probably worth between $4-5 mil for one season.
Now, you have to wonder what the Twins would take in exchange for him as well, and I have no idea what that might even be. But his salary is very affordable for his performance.
That said, his offense is so poor that I wouldn’t expect free agent compensation picks. And I have no idea if it would be a good idea to sign him to a long-term deal at this point.
by cwyers on Apr 21, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs fans would pull their hair out
with Everett and his bat. I’m not sure I’d really want to see him over Theriot/Cedeno.
by rlpete on Apr 21, 2008 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd tend to agree with this.
Seems we’d be giving up in offense as much as we’re getting in defense. Maybe a little better off with Everett when it all shakes out—but worth the cost?
I tend to think no.
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cedeno vs. Theriot debate can be found
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 1:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Okay here is the issue....do the Cubs have WS caliber SS?
It is my opinion that Theriot is probably the best utility infielder in the NL, but a starter is tough, kind of how Loretta has been.
Cedeno could be good, he has had some monster AAA seasons batting and a strong winter league showing so he can hit for high average. He is hitting this season but he might be too inexperienced for a WS contender—-he makes physical ability decisions not situational baseball decisions. Thus both could be great utility players on a WS contender.
That leaves who could be available. Well the season will dictate that: LA Dodgers could be out of it or almost out of it by the All Star break and might want to part with Furcal. They got Hu and DeJesus Jr., and Torre could easily say we will build behind one of them. What is interesting is what LAD is going to do with Andruws and Pierre….
Furcal is a WS caliber SS, he has a left-handed bat and some speed. Outside that San Diego might also be out of it also. I see the West now that AZ is far better than most followed by a good CO team, so Greene could be available as well.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
by Ivy Walls on Apr 21, 2008 2:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't say the Dodgers will be out of it.
Lots o’ball to be played. But, I REALLY appreciate your line of thinking here.
Furcal would be a great fit. No one can question the defensive upgrade here, and while he’s had injury problems and a streaky bat, he is a high-quality shortstop.
What would the Dodgers need in return?
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is a FA after this season...
Bildo. And with the (wasted) money the Dodgers have spent over the last few seasons, they would have to be WAAAYYYY out of it for Colletti to consider trading him. Especially considering they’ll likely get 1st round compensation if he doesn’t stay anyway.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 21, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knew we'd get you going on this Damen.
Wouldn’t the Dodgers be MORE likely to trade him though, since he’s a FA after the year?
This is all assuming, of course, that they’re out of it.
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 21, 2008 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
Colleti would then look like a nitwit for shelling out crazy FA money, instead of playing the kids. And since Furcal is likely to see another 12 milion plus per year deal, a second division team likely won’t sign him, so they’ll probably get 1st round compensation when he leaves.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 21, 2008 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The "WS Caliber" label can be applied
pretty loosely. If the white sox can win it all with Jose Uribe the I think Theriot can squeeze by.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 21, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could say the same thing...
... about the 2002 Angels and 2006 Cardinals. I think you all know who the starting SS was on those teams.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Apr 22, 2008 4:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is most important...
...to do all you can to be sure you have a WS caliber team, as opposed to focusing on one position.
With that said, I undertand the importance of the SS position, and Theriot’s play over the next month or two will determine whether an upgrade their is necessary.
Can you win with Theriot? Yes you can, it just depends on how the rest of the club is shaping up.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 21, 2008 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your argument but sometimes
we get caught up in stats and not consider that a player can have a career year and be a better choice than someone with better career stats. I am not advocating Theriot as a solution for this year or the future, but the grass is not always ggreener in someone else’s ballpark.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 21, 2008 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand...
...the hard part is predicting when a player may have a career year. Some guys will tease you for a while, then they end up at the end of the year with numbers that were similar to previous years.
I’m not saying Theriot can’t give you .280/.350 or so (which would be very nice), because he may have gained the confidence to limit the cold streaks he had last year. You let things play out, and Piniella and Hendry will need to make the best judgement they can mid-year.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 21, 2008 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the worst thing that
could happen is for someone like Theriot have a good year before the trading deadline but struggle after the deadline. Especially if there is a good player available that you could rent for stretch run but you don’t pull the trigger. I just hope we have a big enough lead at the deadline so we only have to tweak the roster and not depend on some pickup to carry the team after the deadline.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 21, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I had to guess...
...Hendry will be just as aggressive if the Cubs are 7 games in front vs 2 games behind at the deadlind.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Apr 21, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burnitz is the perfect example
In 2005, for the first half, Burnitz looked like he could be the answer, but his career stats warned otherwise and in the second half he flopped:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=burnije01&;year=2005
by DGU on Apr 21, 2008 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good example. Those first have stats
can be foolers if you don’t look at a players history. This can be especially true of pitchers. Some naive GM might be tempted to roll the dice on Marquis if we were prone to dump him but I sure wouldn’t bet my paycheck of him ever reversing his trend and doing anything after the all-star break.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 21, 2008 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One name I haven't seen...
is Brandon Wood. He’s blocked in Anaheim by the plethora of infielders there, but I always liked the guy. It would probably take quite a bit to get him though.
"I'm not giving him a high-five ever again." - Sammy Sosa, joking about Moises Alou's personal habits
by MorePiePlease on Apr 21, 2008 3:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I like him too, but I think you
are right about the price. They don’t have to give him up and they would try to hold you up for a big league starter to get him. They need starting pitching and they would use him to try and get well.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 21, 2008 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm starting to lose faith in Brandon Wood
and I’m really not convinced he’d be better than Cedeno this year.
by DGU on Apr 21, 2008 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Renteria has moved around a lot lately
And yet, the Cubs have never shown any interest in him. That simply amazes me. We could’ve had him 2 or 3 different times by now.
Cubs 2008 (12-6)
Home (8-4) | Road (4-2) | 1-Run Games (3-2) | Extra Innings (3-1)
Updated on April 21, 2008
by SackMan on Apr 22, 2008 8:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm morally opposed to havin 'Gar on the Cubs
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
by Bildo1805 on Apr 22, 2008 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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