All-Star Ryan Theriot?
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Apr 24, 2008 10:50 PM CDT
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Somebody bring the tear gas and the rubber bulllets to Wrigley field, a riot has broken out between 2nd and 3rd.
Manning that 90 ft alongside Aramis Ramirez is Ryan Theriot, the most consistent shortstop in a Cubs uniform since, perhaps, Sean Dunston. It has
become a threat to the National League placing Ryan Theriot, the 5-11 175 pound shortstop, on the field as the Cubs everyday shortstop while
the Cubs find themselves at the top of the division.
Yes, we are only 13.5%% through this season and Theriot is, for the first time, playing as an everyday player in his 4th
season as a major league ballplayer. This does make me wonder if this is going to continue. Perhaps it does? Would Ryan "The Riot" Theriot be sporting the
National League All-Star uniform along side leagues elite? If the All-Star game was tomorrow, I would say he would be a reserve, unless the
fans inked in Ryan's name enough to guarantee him a spot. Let's let his numbers do the talking.
Ryan Theriot is currently 4th amongst National League shortstops with a .321 average, behind Hanley Ramirez (.349),
Miguel Tejada (.360) and Rafael Furcal (.398) as of April 23rd. He is 6th on the list in all of baseball. Theriot is
3rd amongst major league shortstops with an on base percentage of .384, 4th in runs scored and 5th in fielding percentage.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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wow
I really hope you are joking. theriot sucks. wait until the end of the year when he is one of the worst everyday shortstops in the league. How about his defensive play that possibly cause the lose of todays game.
"Theriot sucks" are you kidding?
I mean I see what you are saying, I am being hypothetical. What if he does continue this? We dont know if he can do this for a full season or not. He hasnt had the chance. As of now his numbers are great, and yes that error was tough, but he doesnt make many mistakes in the field. By the end of the year my guess would be middle of the pack, but I am speaking about his numbers now, it just may continue, who really knows??
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Apr 24, 2008 11:05 PM CDT reply actions
He'll be a lot lower than middle of the pack...
If I had to guess, he’s going to end up as one of the worst regular SS in the league, just like he was last year. And despite your cherry-picked stats, he wouldn’t really be in the running for a reserve spot if the All-Star game was played right now. Here are the guys that would go ahead of him:
Furcal (having the best start of any SS in baseball right now)
Ramirez
Tejada
Escobar
Drew/Theriot (Drew has a lower OBP, but is MUCH better in terms of power)
Theriot’s had a shockingly (for him) good start, but his numbers would put him in the discussion for “others considered,” not in the All-Star game.
by SouthernCub on Apr 25, 2008 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
1st Comment!!!!
C’Mon, I can think of plenty of NL SS that are far worse than The Riot. He’s the best shortstop in our division who hasn’t lied on his immigration documents. And they lost today because Cook shut them down, plain and simple. Not because of that error.
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
what?
how is he the best in our division? Hardy, Tejeda, Sanchez are definitley better. Keppinger is also probably better.
Why or how would theriot ever make the all-star team beating out Hanley Ramirez, Jimmy Rollins, Miquel Tejeda, Jose Reyes, Tulo, Furcal and other. That is just ridiculous to think. hey maybe Henry Blanco will win the MVP too huh.
In all honestly almost every team in the national league has a better shortstop aside from the Cardinals and Giants.
The Cubs did not loose because of Cook, they lost because of shoddy defense.
Hardy
hasn’t hit since last year’s ASB. Sanchez is a 2B (Bixler is Pitt’s SS as of now). Izturis blows. I like Keppinger, but he’s been on three teams in his short career already, and now Dusty is starting Jerry Hairston at shortstop. So yes, after the lying, cheating Tejada (actually, it’s now spelled Tejeda) I’d take Ryan over anyone in our division. I’d take him over Guzman in Washington, old-ass Vizquel in SF, and Greene in SD.
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
Do yourself a favor
and look at Greene’s stats one more time. If you’re still not convinced take a look at his splits.
If that doesnt work try listening to Sepultura while standing on one foot and urinating in a cup.
...
by Chitown Mojo on Apr 25, 2008 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions
re: Do yourself a favor
try listening to Sepultura while standing on one foot and urinating in a cup.
Sounds like my freshman year in college!
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Why not
bash Hart for walking Holliday in the first place. They win as a TEAM and lose as a TEAM.
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
My first instinct
is to insert a picture…..but I wont. Not trying to make you look like a boob (mental pic) just pointing it out.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Yeah,
well it was my first couple posts, and all the Theriot-hating gets on my nerves. I loathe the people that pick out certain players or moves and just rail on them day after day. Does anyone stop to think that we’re 15-7, won the division last year, and maybe-just maybe- Lou Piniella knows what he’s doing. He may have just a bit more experience playing and coaching in MLB than all the other boobs (myself included) here.
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
Or maybe we're having a really good start..
and it has little to do with Piniella’s managing. I’m sure Piniella knew that Theriot would have an OPS more than 100 points above his MLB and MILB norms…
Yeah
Nostradamus, huh. I think he just knows that Theriot is the best he’s got (sorry Ronny lovers) right now, and therefore, he plays him. Another example: I would love to see Pie out there cause I love his enthusiasm and energy- but Lou knows Johnson is better right now, so he goes with what will help him WIN THE GAME. I definetly don’t think Theriot is an All-Star, but cut the guy some slack. He’s a gamer, and since we can’t pay 10-15 million for every position, I’ll take his stats for the price.
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
I can't stand the "he's a gamer" argument...
No, we can’t have a $10+ million dollar player at every position. But we don’t have to talk about the guy as if he’s (1) above average or (2) in the discussion for team MVP. Both discussions have come up with Theriot.
If you want to make the argument that he’s been the best option we have at SS, that’s fine. And until very recently, it’s certainly been true (and it may still be true, depending on whether Cedeno continues to play well or not). But there’s a difference between being the best available option and being good.
If you want to make the argument that he’s tolerable for the amount of money he makes, I’m even okay with that. For $350,000 or so, he’s probably cost-effective. But there’s a difference between being cost-effective and being good.
My problem is with people who sing the praises of a guy who is below-average defensively and offensively (this hot month notwithstanding).
He's in the Major Leagues
No matter how you try to explain it away, you have to be a good ballplayer to be in the Majors (even Neifi and Jacque had a good year or two). He’s not an All-Star, and he’s not a Gold Glover, but you can say that about a lot of guys. I’m sorry, I like to have a guy who works hard, hustles, and plays the game the right way on my team. There are probably hundreds of guys with more talent working at Wal-Mart right now because they didn’t maximize their potential in the minors with a bad work ethic. If a certain left-fielder or third baseman played the game like Ryan, he’d be a sure-fire Hall of Famer. So long story short, I love “gamers”.
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
I prefer performance...
If I had to choose between hustle and results, I’ll take results.
And yes, relative to you and me, Theriot is a fabulous baseball player. However, relative to MLB players, Theriot is not a good baseball player. He’s a below-average player for a MLB player.
Is it easier to like a guy who plays hard? Absolutely. And it’s very nice that he’s had a great start to the season. I like it too when hard work results in good things. Unfortunately, I don’t anticipate that continuing.
It’s all a matter of perspective. We can sit back and celebrate a nice first month, or we can think rationally about what areas the team might need improvement in. Or, we can do both (which is what I like to do).
I respect that
But I still beg to differ on the below-average player part. Oh, well. Agree to Disagree
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
That's not an opinion to agree/disagree about...
These things are easily measured. Defensively, he’s definitely below-average. Offensively, he was well below average last year and has been above average this year.
On the hole, he was well below average last year. This year, I’d say he’s been below average in composite, considering both his offense and defense.
I am happy to agree to disagree on the hustle vs performance question, though. I can certainly understand having your opinion on that issue (even though I don’t personally).
OK
League averages in 2008
.270, 1 HR, 6 RBI, 2 SB
Theriot:
.321 1 HR, 6 RBI, 5 SB
Theriot has one error and Rollins 2, so he MUST be better than a Gold Glover (how do you write sarcasm in here)
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
You might try using meaningful metrics...
like OPS for offense, and zone rating for defense. Both are readily available at ESPN.com
As I said, Theriot has been above average this year offensively (8th among in MLB SS in OPS), but well below average defensively (26th among MLB SS in ZR). And that’s taking into account that he’s had an amazingly good start. Last year, he had similarly poor defense and well below-average offense.
Now, I can’t imagine you expect Theriot to continue to hit .320, so the offense is going to go down. Similarly, stars who have struggled early (Jeter, Reyes, Tulowitzki) or have been injured (Rollins) are going to get better. He’s going to wind up well below-average again this year, just like last year.
Fair enough...
I’ll agree to suspend this debate until later in the season (or after the seson).
I don't know
Where to get the Bill James defense stuff though, do you?
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
Or maybe you could try explaining yourself.
The average NL shortstop hit .279/.337/.420 last season, for an OPS+ of 100. (Yes, the average hitting shortstop is an average hitter. Below average hitting tends to come from pitchers, catchers, and pinch hitters.) Ryan Theriot hit .266/.326/.346, for an OPS+ of 72. Let’s clarify this here – Ryan Theriot’s raw numbers are inflated by hitting in Wrigley Field for half of his games. In a neutral park his numbers would be lower.
You
posted those numbers so quick. Why arn’t you in a major league front office? I understand the whole moneyball sabermetrics thing always wins – so you guys win, I lose. You have converted me. Theriot sucks. In fact, why do we have a manager or scouts or a front office at all? I’m sure we could all handle the job from our computers.
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
Weak comeback...
Your argument that Theriot is above average is because he happens to play SS for a team that doesn’t really have any other options (at all). Cwyers presented STATISTICAL EVIDENCE that Theriot is, in fact below average. And because of that, you mock his response? Come on.
Theriot is below average. That doesn’t mean he’s a bad person. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a role on a baseball team. That doesn’t mean you can’t or shouldn’t cheer for him. I don’t know why you take such offense to that fact.
that was another sarcastic response
I wasn’t trying to mock him. Sorry if it came off like that man. I’m just not a huge guy on the whole sabermetrics thing. I gave a couple baseball card stats that showed he is above average right now, and I’m put down because I don’t use advanced statistics. I just think that all the baseball people from LSU through the Cubs have gone with Ryan, so maybe we should trust in the people that are paid to evaluate. Contrary to a lot of people’s belief, being a good baseball player is not all about the stats.
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
Yeah, what do sabrmetrics know...
all they do is calculate the things most predictive of producing runs and producing wins. Forget that, let’s stick with a measure that was created in the 1800s when people didn’t know any better.
I have two problems with the “let’s trust management on this guy” argument. First, managements make mistakes on players all of the time. That’s the nature of the business. Second, who’s to say that the team is really excited about Theriot at SS? I’d argue that they aren’t at all excited about him, but due to unforeseen events (failure to sign Furcal, bad move in getting Izturis, failure of Cedeno to progress) they’re stuck with him.
I'm just saying
what i believe. Hence, my agree to disagree statement. I’m trying to avoid the can’o’worms below by just letting you guys win the argument. I will quietly root for Ryan and believe that he is above average. I promise to never again defend him or offend you.
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
And i think
that we can all agree it will be a moot point when we win the whole goddamn thing this year. Right?
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
If we win the WS this year...
I’ll be happy to look past Theriot’s below-averageness for the time being, yes.
Because Hart gave up a hit to
Holliday and when he needed it he got the groundball that was needed for the double play and Theriot could not hold on to the ball. He also hit into a double play in the top of the inning while they had 1st and third with one out. Theriot isn’t a bad shortstop but he is not the best shortstop on the team. Cedeno should be the everyday shortstop, he has better range and arm with more offense potential.
WRONG
They lost because of Cook. The Cubs scored 2 runs. Gimme a break, they may not have turned the DP anyways.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
yea
he also lined into that double play. what the hell is he doing hitting the ball on the ground with a man on third and less then two outs.
Yeah he lined into a double play
A soft line drive….blame Fontenot
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Yeah, I hate when guys purposely line out into DP's.
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry
thank you
And I bet nobody thinks we won because of Ryan on Wednesday, right?
Embrace the Goat and It Shall Be Undone
If the ASG was about batting average only...
Then Theriot would probably still be left off. As you said, he’s fourth right now, behind two other National League shortstops.
If any Cub should make his first All-Star Game, it should be Fukudome.
"Hey! If the moon were made of ribs, wouldja eat it? I know I would!"
Its about the popular vote
Theriot doesnt have a chacne to make the team AT ALL.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Lee
by far would be at least one of our representatives in the mid-summer classic. top one or two in HR’s, AVG, and still playing gold-glove caliber first base
"I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me." Frank Costello
by kalamazoo_cubs_fan on Apr 25, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually...
One could make a pretty strong argument that Lee wouldn’t be there right now. Pujols, Jackson, and Berkman have better OPS than Lee at the moment. I’d say he still would get in right now (based on his HR, AVG, and defense), but the NL has had some pretty good starts from 1B this year.
Based on performance, the All-Stars (as of right now) would be (starters first):
C – Soto, McCann
1B – Pujols, Berkman, Lee?
2B – Utley, DeRosa
3B – C Jones, Wright
SS – Furcal, H Ramirez, Tejada?
LF – Burrell, Willingham, Holliday
CF – McClouth, Patterson/Beltran? (the CF position has been weak in the NL)
RF – J Upton, Fukudome
P – Sheets, Lincecum, Peavy, Webb, Rodriguez, Owings, a couple more starters and a couple of closers.
by SouthernCub on Apr 25, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
This has to be a mistake
Corey
BA 227
OBP 288
FELIX
BA 219
OBP 272
Might as well vote them both on.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
You are cherry-picking
Check out the slugging percentages. It’s not really close. And it’s not entirely a park effect either, as Patterson’s road SLG is .500 and his home SLG is .545.
Yes, Patterson is not good. The problem is that the NL as a group has not had impressive production from CF.
As I noted in the other response, Beltran’s OBP probably warrants inclusion ahead of Patterson.
Ill make you a deal
If Corey makes the AllStar team Ill pay for the flight, tickets, hotel and we will go together.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Remember this post.
It’s not likely to happen… but then again, stranger things HAVE happened.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
The reason his slugging is so high
is because he has 4 homers, 1 triple and 6 doubles of HIS 15 HITS.
Please do remember this post. The only stranger than this happeneing is The Riot being on the bench for the AllStar game.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
What's your point?
In a comparison of performance AS OF RIGHT NOW, Patterson has vastly outperformed Pie. It doesn’t matter that it is a statistical anomaly that Patterson has so many extra base hits despite struggling overall. The fact is that he has them.
He’s obviously not going to keep that sort of pace. His average will likely get up to around .250 or so, with an OBP of around .300-.310 or so, and the power will return to normal. But that’s irrelevant to the discussion of this fantasy “All-Star game if it were played right now” discussion that has been posed.
Ill be willing to bet
his OBP gets near his career avg which is .298. That in a word, sucks. if he gets up to .310 that still sucks. He wont make the team…players get voted on and if youve look in the stands for a Cincy game theres no one there to vote.
He wont make the team…..I know its my opinion and thats yours but it wont happen. Stranger things have happened YES, like a team going 100 years without a championship.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Completely agree...
I never said that I believe he is a good player. And unless something really strange happens, I don’t expect to feel that way.
Well...
I think you miss my point. I’m not saying Patterson deserves to make any sort of All-Star team. I was just pointing out how little has been done in CF in the NL this year. If I’d looked closer, I’d have switched Beltran and Patterson, as Beltran’s OBP is much better (even if Patterson has shown more power). And by the All-Star break, I agree that there’s no reason to expect Patterson to be close to being on the roster.
That said, considering that there are no strings attached, I’ll take the deal. Even though I know it has a 0.001% chance of happening, since it costs me nothing if he doesn’t make it I stand to only remain in place or make a big gain! :)
you buy the beer though
sorry…..but if Im shelling out that cash I need to get bombed for free
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Deal...
I’ll be happy to shell out the zero dollars for our beers at the imaginary trip to the All-Star game…
Not kidding...
As of right now, Patterson has the second-highest OPS in the NL among CF (.818). And he has pretty good defense.
In retrospect, I’d put Beltran ahead of him. But my point was that the dropoff from McClouth to #2 in CF is pretty steep early in the season.
And the key to the original poster's statement was...
FIRST all-star game. Lee has made an All-Star team before.
by SouthernCub on Apr 25, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Let me introduce you to the NL East
Jose Reyes
Jimmy Rollins
Yunel Escobar
Hanley Ramirez
Cristian Guzman
Theriot - on a hot streak - might be as good as Guzman. As to the other four—each is at least 100 times better than the Riot. The only way Riot is an all-star this year is if he gets sent down to Iowa.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Reyes
sure proved he was the better SS during his last trip to Wrigley, anybody remember his performance? yeah, me neither. Was he even in the Mets lineup?
"I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me." Frank Costello
by kalamazoo_cubs_fan on Apr 25, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Basing anything on a two-game sample is not wise...
Reyes hasn’t put up great numbers early this year. But make no mistake: he is SUBSTANTIALLY better than Theriot. It isn’t remotely close. Every Cubs fan should want him over Theriot.
by SouthernCub on Apr 25, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
SEAN???
“Don’t do the crime, if you can’t do the time… “
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Exactly
I stopped reading at that point. Anyone who would write that isn’t a Cub fan.
It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.
by Josh Timmers on Apr 25, 2008 1:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Really?
That’s when you stopped reading? I pretty much decided that it was giong to be a trainwreck when I saw the title.
I kind of thought
it might be an Onion parody.
It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.
by Josh Timmers on Apr 25, 2008 2:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Plus Theriot
was an everyday shortstop LAST YEAR. This isnt his first year
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Incorrect
He wasn’t on the voting last year. Itzturis was.
well thats not true
As of now, think about it? It is pretty much true. Didnt look to into it, but off memory as far as right now, Theriot is getting the job better then most of our ss offensively. And yes… HUGE Cubs fan.
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Apr 25, 2008 4:14 AM CDT up reply actions
My post was snark
and not meant to be taken seriously.
But if you’re such a huge Cubs fan, then why don’t you know the proper spelling of Shawon Dunston? I mean, how am I supposed to take anything you say seriously if you don’t know that? That’s like Cubs 101.
Your response here tells me you still don’t get it.
It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.
by Josh Timmers on Apr 25, 2008 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
This Just in...
Misspelling = Not A Cubs Fan. And I’d really like to subscribe to your Cubs 101 Newsletter if you’d like to tell us all how to be one. Has Southside possibly jumped the gun w/ his rubber bullets in hand? Obviously….but I say let him enjoy it while it lasts. I mean I’m as big a Riot fan as fan but we all know he’ll come down to earth eventually. But we’re winning right now and that’s all that matters. But this is an open forum so to each their own, I suppose.
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry
It's about Ethos
And I said it was snark. Apparently you can’t read, so writing Cubs 101 would be a waste of time because you would be unable to read it.
If someone walked into a bar and told you they’d been a Cub fan for years—that he was a big fan of Ryan Sandberg and Andy Dawson, would you believe them?
Being able to write is a huge deal in getting your point across. Sorry if you don’t believe it. I can tell that you don’t.
It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.
by Josh Timmers on Apr 25, 2008 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Or a real life example
That they were happy to be at Wrigley Stadium?
It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.
by Josh Timmers on Apr 25, 2008 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
The fact remains
this isnt the first time you responded in ill to someones post with grammar issues. Let it go, we all know you are very well versed in the Cubs and have perfect grammar. This is an opinionated board. My father is a brilliant man who cant spell a lick——does that make his opinion worthless NO.
Dont take on the Boers/Bernsie attitude. IMO, Cubs 101 would be knowing that Shawon Dunston was a Cub and not knowing the spelling of it.
Yes Al, I am done. Just venting.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Spelling/grammar errors annoy me too...
but your responses to it come across as really snotty and arrogant.
There’s plenty to pick apart with regard to the diary that is far more important than the fact that he/she didn’t know the correct spelling of Dunston’s first name.
Also, your argument about Ryan vs Ryne and Andy vs Andre isn’t really applicable. “Sean” and “Shawon” are pronounced virtually identically.
All right.
Let’s cut out the sniping at each other. The Cubs are winning, right?
I happen to agree with Josh. The unusual spelling of Shawon Dunston’s name is something that every Cub fan should know, as it’s been discussed for years.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I wasn't sniping...
just commenting on the sniping. I thought it was a pretty rude comment by Josh, and wreaked of elitism. You don’t have to be elitist (or snotty or arrogant) to make elitist (or snotty or arrogant) comments. I don’t know much about Josh’s personality so I would never comment on that, but what he said was pretty arrogant and rude.
As for the Dunston, thing: should a Cubs fan know the correct spelling of Dunston’s name? Probably. Is it worth condemning their opinion based on that? Not in my opinion.
Further...
I’d argue that there may be plenty of die-hard Cubs fans who’ve never seriously discussed Dunston. It’s been 13 years since he was a Cub. If you are in high school now, you weren’t even in school when he was here. And you’d have barely been in middle school (if at all) when he was last in the MLB. Even if you’ve just finished college, you were all of 9 when he was last a member of the Cubs.
For those of us in our 30(ish) and older who happened to have followed the team for 20+ years, it may seem unfathomable that someone might not know Shawon’s name by heart. But it’s not out of the question to be a true blue Cubs fan and not have that name embedded in your memory.
You know what Josh...
You are obviously a very bright guy, so I can never for the life of me figure out why the most arrogant and insulting personal attacks on posters seem to consistently come from you. Please stop. Your prose don’t do you justice.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 25, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions
You know...
I’ve met SouthSide. He’s seems like both a nice man, and a Cubs fan. So, I’m going to write this whole thing off as him having a “Harry” moment. A little too much Cubs enthusiasm, coupled with a bit too much spirits.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 25, 2008 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Loud, sustained applause.
The Cubs have had All-Stars who have had far worse numbers than Theriot has right now.
If you don’t believe me, go check the 1976 NL All-Star team.
Note that I am NOT in any way advocating Theriot for the All-Star team. He’s playing pretty well right now, and likely way over his head. Let’s not get carried away.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Ryan Theriot..
an All-Star? I know the Cubs are off to a great start, but this is getting silly. There are still questions about whether he’s even the best shortstop on the roster.
He may be—at best—the 6th or 7th best shortstop in the league. And from voters’ standpoint, probably about the 10th.
Theriot may be
one of the best 15 SS in the league….maybe.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Where does he lie...
Hanley Ramirez
Jose Reyes
Jimmy Rollins
Derek Jeter
Troy Tulowitzki
Rafael Furcal
Miguel Tejada
Michael Young
‘Gar-Rent (Can’t bring myself to type the Devil’s name)
Orlando Cabrera
JJ Hardy
Jhonny Peralta
Khalil Greene
Steven Drew
Yunel Escobar
Julio Lugo
Yuniesky Betancourt
(I THINK RIOT GOES HERE-#18)
Jeff Keppinger
Macier Izturis
Cristian Guzman
Jason Bartlett
Bobby Crosby
Juan Uribe
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
Thank you for proving my poiint
And by the way, I meant the national league.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Haha
I’d take him over Bixler for sure.
Riot’s not bad. I actually think he is a great part of this team. But he’s no all-star.
Also, in other late breaking news: Bears defecate in woods, and Pope found to be Catholic.
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
I'd rather have
Maicer, Bartlett (who has great defense), and a healthy Crosby. I’d probably keep Theriot over Lugo, given contract situations.
As far as I am concerned...
Ryan Theriot is a good SS for the Cubs, he’s a fan favorite and comes through with a clutch play every so often. However, to call him an all-star is a bit of a stretch. The NL All-Star SS this year without a doubt will be Hanley Ramirez. I’d totally love to see a push to get Kosuke as a starter in the All-Star game.
by Peter the Cubbie on Apr 25, 2008 12:09 AM CDT reply actions
Please tell me this post is a joke
Theriot has absolutely no business starting for any major league team.
If not, it is truly stunning that even someone with blind Theriot love would post this on a day when his inexcusable error cost the Cubs the game.
When Soriano comes back, DeRosa will return to second and, hopefully, Ronny Cedeno will be the starting shortstop, sending Theriot to fulfill his destiny as a role player.
Your taking this out of context
Clearly Hanley Ramirez would be starting. Theriot has been great for the Cubs right now, clearly better then most of the league. Is he going to continue at this pace, most likely not, but IF it were all-star break an argument can be made, as I said, as a RESERVE.
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Apr 25, 2008 4:10 AM CDT reply actions
Hey man...
Sorry, but it just won’t happen. Voting is about knowing, and more people know the play of Rollins, Reyes, and Ramirez.. I mean, think about it. Rollinis is the league MVP, Ramirez is most likely to get the sole Marlins spot, and Reyes has more talent, and the New York marketing machine behind him. And that’s before fact that after them, there are still 3-4 SSs that most still would still take over Ryan.
If you want to start campaigning for a darkhorse, may I suggest Geovany Soto? Softer position, and he could have a real chance to get a backup spot if he continues his start.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 25, 2008 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions
And to that, I remind you once again...
That the NL East would like to see you.
"This is the kind of thing … that makes you want to see the Chicago Cubs team lose." Marty Brennaman
Last year
Pujols was one the only position player left on the bench in the allstar game…..hmmmmmm Clint Hurdle looks down his bench for a hitter and sees RYAN THERIOT. Id hit Micah Owings before I hit Ryan
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Except that your case is still weak...
He’s behind Ramirez, Tejada, and Furcal. The All-Star team isn’t going to carry four SS, so Theriot would not make it. This is especially true when you consider that he plays for a team that could get plenty of other All-Stars (Lee, Ramirez, Zambrano, Fukudome?, Soto?).
He’s obviously not going to make it to the real All-Star game, because he’s not going to keep this up and some of the better players below him will pass him by. But even in the fantasy world of the “First Month All-Star Team,” there are three more deserving SS, meaning he wouldn’t make it.
We
all fall in love with certain players. Some more then others. Please take a deep breath…do not…I repeat..do not become a stalker.
by Comfortably Numb on Apr 25, 2008 4:18 AM CDT reply actions
It's sort of baseline requirement
for All-Stars that they catch the ball, thus ruling out Pastadiving Theriot. Even SHAWON Dunston knew that.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Almost as awesome as the
10th inning game winning hit he had on Tues. You know, Not everyone can be Chuck Norris.
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry
Which is awe-inspiring
as his .326 OBP last season.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Hey remember yesterday
When he dropped the flip on an easy double play that would have gotten the CUbs out of the inning, but instead he didn’t and then they lost?
Cos I do.
^^^^^^^
See above. I can’t see, spell, or type, I must not be a fan.
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry
No chance whatsoever...
Theriot has had a nice start. But even with that nice start, he’d be statistically behind:
Rafael Furcal (.379/.471/.632, 3 HR, 6 SB)
Hanley Ramirez (.333/.406/.622, 7 HR, 8 SB)
Miguel Tejada (.348/.385/.584, 4 HR, 19 RBI)
And that ignores the fact that (1) Theriot is going to come back to Earth, and (2) there are some MUCH better SS that will pass him.
In terms of likelihood of deserving an All-Star spot by the break (I say deserving because the fan vote is always a crazy thing), I’d go with the following general ordering:
Hanley Ramirez
Jose Reyes
Miguel Tejada
Rafael Furcal
Troy Tulowitzki
Yunel Escobar
JJ Hardy
Khalil Greene
Stephen Drew
Jeff Keppinger
Ryan Theriot
Christian Guzman
Anybody else
It’s just not going to happen. He’s had a very nice start, but let’s not get carried away here. He is what he is: a slap-hitting, scrappy player who plays a mediocre defensive SS.
I'd debate Keppinger...
although not too loudly. But yes, I think that’s about how most fans would handle their voting.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 25, 2008 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Editor's note:
I neglected to include Jimmy Rollins, who was the MVP last year. He’s hurt now, but he’ll be in the top 3-4 once he’s healthy.
Theriot
Is doing the job plain and simple. He’s doing well so far, and thanks to Cedeno doing well, we don’t have to worry about our middle infield right now. There’s some stiff competition there which is making Lou’s job a lot easier. Let’s give it some time before we start talking all-star….unless you want to start making your case for Soto.
Replace Ryan Theriot with Ronny Cedeno
and replace John McCain/Barack Obama/Hilary Clinton with Ryan Theriot, then this diary makes sense.
"I think Hendry still has a few years to serve on his 'grand larceny' sentence before he can shop in Pittsburgh again" - ballhawk
Theriot
I think he is doing pretty well so far, if he keeps up this pace for the entire year then I feel like we will finally have our 6 man, I don’t think he would be an all-star only because the NL is stacked with SS talent. By the way you listed him as 5’11 in your post, I met him on monday and I think he may be more like 5’9”
"We Are Not Fair Weather But Foul Weather Fans, Brothers In Arms In Streets and The Stands." -Eddie Vedder, Someday We'll Go All The Way
The only way he gets it
The only way Theriot gets on the All Star team is if Baseball Tonight continues to talk him up. Not sure how many of you watch the show but every clip they talk about “The Riot” when The Cubs are on. A name like that draws attention. A casual fan who only knows their team could vote for him as a second choice. Plus, although you couldn’t tell from this board—- Chicago fans do like Theriot a lot. He could get a lot of votes at home games.
It’s unlikely he’ll be on the team but that is the ONLY scenario I can see it happen this year.
Y'know, I can't help wondering...
...whether Theriot would be as popular as he is if he didn’t have such a cool and catchy last name. Would droves of fans be wearing his jersey - and certain others writing fanposts speculating about an All-Star bid - if his name was “Finklemeyer”? Methinks not.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
I'm not sure
I think he got popular at the end of 2006 after playing superior to Ronny Cedeno. It was a breath of fresh air for that lousy team.
When Lou took over Theriot began to be classified as one of “Lou’s boys”. Lou would put him over in all interviews on the web, TV, print, etc. Plus, no matter how bad of a day Theriot has at the plate or even defensively (which isn’t too often) you can see his effort and there are people who notice that.
Add in the fact he is getting good press for his charitable work and community clinics it’s no surprise he’d be a fan favorite in Chicago.
So perhaps good press does make him popular especially with a catchy last name.
The one thing you must remember, this board represents a small % of opinionated Cubs fans who I truly don’t think fully represents the core fan-base. I say the fans on here are “Smart” fans who know the game a little better.
Go to the Cubs convention, see how he and DeRosa are the two longest lines for photos and autogarphs and you will see why someone would write a post like this.
Oh, I understand why the fanpost was written.
And I agree that many, if not most, of those who post here are better informed than the legions of fans who follow the team with a blind (or at least nearsighted) devotion without really analyzing the players. I think Theriot and Murton are both examples of guys who, because of their inherent charm, become fan favorites despite their limitations/shortcomings as players. And, in Theriot’s case, the name really helps. (Murton, of course, has the hair.)
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Murtons first at bat
He got a great ovation from the crowd. I was at the game. It was very suprising to me so many people remembered him there.
I can’t argue the name though. It’s a great nickname. It’s the ONLY reason anyone in NY knows who he is (I live in NY).
However, outside of this board, it’s no secret he has a strong fanbase in Chicago. Perhaps to the degree of fanbase of say Nomar in Boston?
Wow, I dunno...
...I kinda doubt that Theriot is quite as popular in Chicago as Nomar was in Boston. Ryan hasn’t played here as long and, as other posters have gone to great lengths to point out, he isn’t that good. I would guess that Nomar was as popular as he was because he was both likeable and he put up big numbers. Again, I think most folks around here just think Theriot plays really hard and has a cool name.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Knew I was stretching it
I knew I was stretching the Nomar one but that was all I could think of.
Let's say this about Theriot (and about this fanpost)
If he hits .321/.384/.449 with 20-25 2Bs and SBs up through the All-Star break, he would probably be one of the best 5 SSs in the NL. If you believe he can do that, like SSCubsfan does, well, then, given the overemphasis of SBs and BBTonight airtime on the All-Star game, Theriot could conceivably be in the discussion, if still not likely to make it.
The problem is – It’s just not likely he continues to hit that. Just watch him at the plate and compare his ABs to… to even Ronny Cedeno’s. Theriot is guessing every pitch. He will lose at least .050 pts of AVG by the break, and then his line does not look nearly as nice.
Let’s take out the Pittsburgh series and see how Theriot looks against real MLB opponents – in 52 PAs, he’s hitting .286, with an OBP of .327. He’s got his 1 HR and 3 2Bs, which is better than expected. Unfortunately, he’s been caught stealing as often as he’s been successful – 2 a piece. This is nowhere close to All-Star caliber. Given his defense, it’s much closer to the bottom of the barrell.
The Cubs need to do what they can to nab Maicer Izturis from the Angels while Aybar and Wood stay hot.
I must confess...
...this is the first I’ve heard of Maicer Izturis. Per his baseball-reference page, he appears to be off to a pretty slow start, but he put up some nice numbers in ‘06 and ‘07. One rather chilling fact I noticed about him: HE’S CESAR’S BROTHER. Let’s hope if the Cubs did acquire him, he wouldn’t be quite as grabby—in the dugout, I mean.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Cesar and Maicer are half-brothers.
Same mother, different fathers.
And Maicer can, you know, actually play baseball.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Man, I've got to...
include my 2 cents here. There is no way in hell Theriot sniffs an ASG (unless he has tickets), EVER. Not with Reyes, Ramirez, Rollins, and Tulo in NL Theriot is a fan fav and a scrappy role player on this team, period. I personally like him, but want something better just like everyone else.
You ARE freaking out MAN!
Once again....
I DID NOT say that he would be an all-star at all-star break, I agree, there are atleast 3 or 4 shortstops not only consistently better than Theriot, but would be voted in. IF, and I emphasize, IF, the all-star game would be today, I would not doubt that the all-star coach would grab Theriot and put him on his team. Old school baseball player who we have no clue if he can be a consistent shortstop. He may be, he may not be, but the Theriot of now, despite yesterdays mishaps which happens to the best players in baseball, COULD be an allstar, believe it or not.
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Apr 25, 2008 11:34 AM CDT reply actions
Actually, that's not true...
you said “If the All-Star game were tomorrow, I say Theriot would be a reserve…”
You didn’t say “could.” You said “would.” That may not seem like a big difference, but it very much is in the context of a discussion like this.
The facts simply don’t support the idea that Theriot WOULD be an All-Star right now. He’s been the fourth best SS in the NL so far this year, and substantially behind the other three. Unless the NL carried four SS (which doesn’t make a lot of sense), he’d have no chance.
by SouthernCub on Apr 25, 2008 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Southside is the next Mariotti....
You all say you hate it but you also love to read it.
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry
Let's all calm down
Obviously, Southside isn’t saying that Theriot is the best SS in the NL, or even in the division for that matter, but what he is saying is that if today was the all-star break, does Theriot deserve to be acknowledged as a possible reserve for his impressive #’s that he has put up so far. The guy is obviously a fan of Theriot’s so let him have fun with it.
No reason to be so bent out of shape over this, the Cubs are 15-7 and are having the best April of my lifetime. This post isn’t directed at anybody in particular, just wanted to show this guy some support.
So nobody has to see the scroll bar on my posts!!!!
The way I look at it
is that Theriot’s a good little ballplayer; scrappy, hustling-not blessed with great natural talent, below average range (which could be his biggest problem as a starting ss). Is he an all-star? No. Could he someday develop into one? Who knows? He reminds me a lot of David Eckstein, another guy w/o a lot of natural ability (but who one scout said gets more out of his limited ability than almost anybody else in baseball).
Personally I think he’s more suited for a utility role-I like him coming off the bench late in the game. Right now though, I think Cedeno is showing more upside.
The bottom line to me though is that everybody on this site is a Cubs fan and, yes, we tend to fall in love with certain players (I still have friends who remind me that I once predicted that Bump Wills would make the all-star team for us back in ‘82). Theriot’s an easy guy to like. And while I don’t think he’s by any stretch an all-star right now-who knows? In a few years we might be looking back and saying Southside was psychic. Stranger things have happened.
Cedeno certainly has more upside...
He’s got much more range and a much stronger arm. He’s got more ability to drive the ball for extra base hits. Theriot is better on the basepaths, but Cedeno is certainly not slow. The problem for Cedeno has been between his ears. He has had a tendency to do really dumb things in the flow of a baseball game. If that is changing, then I agree that Cedeno should eventually supplant Theriot as the SS.
For all of his hustle and scrappiness, Theriot is HIGHLY overrated on this board. If the ball is hit right at him, he’ll most likely make the play (hence his solid fielding %). But if it’s hit to his right (into the hole), there’s little to no chance he’s make the play. And when that batting average comes back down to earth, he returns to being a sub-700 OPS guy. Sub-700 OPS guys should be everyday SS only if they are exceptional defensively, and Theriot is far from exceptional defensively.
I pretty much agree with everything you're saying...
and I also agree that, if he keeps playing as well as he has been, Cedeno will be our starting ss by the all-star break and Theriot will be coming off the bench (and Fontenot will be looking for a place to live in Des Moines).
Guy...admit it...it COULD happen.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 25, 2008 3:21 PM CDT reply actions
AHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Hammer, think this is a botched double-play turn, but you’re right, he is looking neither at his glove, nor at the base to which he should be throwing. Ye gods.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
wow, uh, not ever gonna happen
caught stealing 5 times this season. 2 just tonight. botched a double-play in the 8th yesterday that cost us the game. does not look good for an all-star game any time soon.
Good Guys Wear Blue
Too bad
The All-Star Game is a popularity contest. He’ll never make it.
"Stay thirsty my friends....."
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