But Hill, Pie and Cedeno are different situations IMO.

Hill needed to go down to find the K zone. He hasn’t. Pitchers are different, especially starters.

Cedeno…what can you say? Theriot’s been hot.

Pie: needs to play consistently, at least vs. RHP. CF is a defensive position and he’s our best defensive CF. As long as he’s not hitting .150, why panic-sign what’s-his-name?

Look, you are one of the flock that subscribe to the theory that all wondrous prospects cranked out by the Cub farm system are destined for major league success. Well sir, they’re not.

Rich Hill was a severe liablity and threat to bullpen sanity via his presence in the rotation. He is a two-pitch pitcher who couldn’t get his money pitch, the curveball, over the plate. Cubs and Rothschild worked with Hill since the first week of spring training when the problem with his control manifest itself. Hill is taking his mail in Des Moines right now because he needs intensified help at getting his pitching repetoire and psyche back on track. Not hard to understand the logic at work here.

Ronny Cedeno has played. His dilemma is that he is number two on the depth chart to a sparkplug shortstop with a .410 OBP and an extremely underrated veteran 2nd baseman. So what do you suggest Lou do differently? Call a team meeting and announce that the popular and productive Theriot shall be thrown under the bus in deference to Cedeno? Please.

Felix Pie has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere. Suffice to say the Cubs, Piniella and his staff have made enormous investment in this young man’s hitting with very poor results to show for the effort. Cubs are trying to win a pennant, not live with an automatic out in the lineup under the shrinking belief that Felix Pie might meagerly pan out down the road.

If Lou is such a stubborn crumedgeon then how do you explain the arrival and success of Geovany Soto and Ryan “Mr. 410 OBP” Theriot ??

Question: If there’s a decent chance that Edmonds can still hit, wouldn’t the Padres have kept him for a while longer? After all, they are last in the major leagues in scoring. Behind even the Giants.

Of course it’s possible that the Padres made a mistake when they let Edmonds go. Every team makes personnel mistakes. Even the smartest of them. And while Edmonds probably isn’t much good any more, he’s probably better than his numbers with the Padres this season (.178/.265/.233). The Cubs need a platoon partner for Reed Johnson, so why not take a flyer?

Here’s why: Because the Cubs already have a left-handed bat who’s probably better than his numbers this season. Felix Pie is struggling, too, but he does have the virtue of being 15 years younger than Edmonds. He’s started only 15 games this season, and has played only 11 games from the first pitch to the last. It’s on this evidence, apparently, that the Cubs are ready to give up on a 23-year-old center fielder who batted .362 in Triple-A last season.
This just doesn’t make sense, at least not from 2,000 miles away (where I sit). Maybe there’s something about Pie that I don’t know. Maybe he’s not willing to work on his hitting. Maybe he’s taken to wearing women’s underpants in the clubhouse and his teammates have the heebie-jeebies. But from where I sit, it’s foolish to replace a young player who isn’t hitting with an old player who probably can’t hit.

15 games is hardly an “enormous investment”....its more like a blind date that didnt go well.

Beat washed-up, sore-armed pitchers like Shawn Estes, who’s backed up by the worst offense in the NL.

Now, the Cubs face Peavy and Maddux.

Brilliant.

i haven’t yet decided how much i agree with its contents, but it is well written and thought provoking. 1 rec from me.

i have commented regarding my potential concern that Soto plays EVERY day – i am more accustomed to catchers getting a day or 2 off per week. and i’m pretty sure i want our regular outfield to be soriano, pie, dome for a few weeks and see what happens. so i guess i agree with the orig. poster.

It’s a simplistic argument, but it’s a valid one – if you don’t win now, you won’t get the chance to win in October.

I very much agree with your assessment of the other teams you described in your fanpost – except maybe the Rockies. They just got incredibly hot at the last possible moment. They went 13-1 last two weeks of the season just to tie for the wildcard and force a one game playoff with the Padres. In short, they were lucky. I don’t think sticking with Troy was the reason they made playoffs.

As for the Red Sox and Indians, I think the reason they can afford to stick with a rookie or two is because their organizations are loaded, both at the major and in the minors. They have the luxury of knowing that if they don’t make the playoffs this year, that would be more of an anomaly – they’ll be back next year, loaded for bear. Yes, there is a desire and even urgency to win, but I just don’t think their sense of urgency is as pressing as the Cubs.

Now what would be interesting is to apply your reasoning to the 2004 Red Sox season because that team, as well as previous Red Sox teams probably did have the same (or at least very similar) sense of urgency that Lou and the Cubs have now. I don’t recall any rookies on that team that played key roles in the playoffs because the team stuck with them during the year – seemed like it was a pretty veteran team with more veterans playing key roles off the bench. What I don’t know is if any of their quality prospects at the time were blocked because of this urgency to “win it now” with what appears to be a mostly veteran roster.

As for Dodgers – your analysis is spot on. If they win anything this year, it will be in spite of their leadership, not because of it. Instead of leveraging the enormous young talent they have on that team and filling in the gaps with a key FA or trade acquisition here and there (like the Marlins did – twice!), it seems like they just added “talent(?)” to positions they were already set at, as you’ve pointed out. I understand why Torre took the job – even with some of their recent boneheaded moves, they’re still in good shape to make the playoffs for several years coming. But I would have loved to be a fly on the wall for their organizational meetings just to see if there was anyone – even the college intern flunky – who voiced some concern about signing Jones, Pierre, et al.

Now as to the Cubs… I just don’t think it’s fair to crucify Lou because he wants to win now. And I’m not sure I get what you mean by “this path to mediocrity”. You say it doesn’t lead to winning now. But clearly it does, at least so far.

You cited three names in your poll – Pie, Cedeno, Hill. Yes, I suppose you could say they’re all being ‘blocked’ but I can’t say with any degree of certainty that it’s to the detriment of the team. Hill is/was struggling. Pitchers are different than position players, especially starters. When you only go every 5th day, I’m not sure it’s wise to try and work it out at the major league level when you have other options. Granted, Marquis, Lieber, et al, aren’t necessarily the best of options, but I think they’re more predictable. I think it makes more sense for pitchers to try and work things out in AAA, then come back to the Bigs and try again.

Cedeno has given every indication that he is ready to kick some major league butt, and I would love to see him out there every day. But where? I’ve always thought Theriot was the weak link in the the three-headed middle infield monster – I still do. But damn, the kid keeps hitting the ball. I just don’t see how Lou can sit him down now. But when (not if) he cools off, I hope Lou at least gives Cedeno a chance to ‘win’ the position and ride him until he cools off. And I don’t see Cedeno taking away at-bats from DeRosa on a regular basis. If DeRosa starts in on this super-sub role, then I’m pretty sure Lou would put Cedeno at second. If he went with Fonty instead, I’d probably start agreeing with you more.

And finally, Mr. Pie… This one is tough. Me, personally, I’d stick him out there every day (with a few spot-starts for Reed), at least through June and give him a chance. My reasoning is as long as Theriot keeps hitting, there really aren’t any other weak spots in the lineup – this team is good enough to carry Pie through some tough times if he struggles offensively. But you see, that same argument can be used for Reed Johnson. If the rest of the team produces the way they have been, it’s good enough to carry Reed if he slumps at the plate. His defense may not be at the same level as Pie, but it’s pretty decent. Of course, Pie’s ceiling is higher than Johnson’s but I can honestly see the Cubs making the playoffs (and doing well) with either of them in center.

Now here’s where I differ with Lou. He needs to shit or get off the pot w.r.t. Pie. If he’s not going to run him out there every day, then send him down or tell Hendry to make him available in trade. Pie is not going to help the Cubs by staying on the bench. Again, I wish Lou would give him a chance and play him, but even more so, I want Lou (or Jim) to make a decision. Fish or cut bait. Then get to work on the back end of the starting rotation.

Oh, and if the Cubs sign Edmonds, then I completely and unequivocally retract this entire post! ;-)

We’re the top scoring offense in MLB right now… and the whole theory of adding Edmonds, is that he’ll be more productive at the plate than Pie. Why do we need that? Edmonds is a big ball of a hotdog suck. And at his over the hill stage, he’ll surely miss plays in CF that Pie would easily make. Couple that with having the horrid fielding of Soriano next to Edmonds, and we’re gonna give up more runs defensively.

Pie can flat out go get ‘em… and not even having him on the roster in a rotation and for late inning defensive replacement is going to cost us runs.

Our offense is fine. We’re scoring tons of runs! We need better late inning defense in the middle infield, and better starting pitching. Neither of which is Jim Edmonds.

comparing the cubs use of young players and the bosox use of young players needs not be done.reason being boston can hide a youngster in that lineup with the likes of manny,papi,youkillis,lowell drew etc PLUS they get 9 real hitters we get 8. dont get me wrong we have some big bats but ares are more hot and cold(soriano). teams like the indians are lower market teams that have to have their prospects to thrive.

pie needs regular playing time BUT we need all the offense we can get to win this year. besides he’s still really really young. as far as edmonds i dont get this move whatsoever at all. maybe hendry is trying for a lightning in the bottle type deal but i agree with the majority—he’s done!!

as far as hill—he is where he needs to be right now and the cedeno/theriot issue is one helluva good problem to have.

last-i dont want this to sound knee jerk but it makes me sick to my stomach to watch marquis pitch. hendry please please sell him to the highest bidder-gotta be someone out there that will split his contract and give us a garbage roster filler for our AA team. admit you were wrong and cut ties. he’s horrible!!!

Solid effort, DGU. Tow short comments:

One, I think you’re drawing a bit of an extreme conclusion. The Cubs have played pretty well to this point and I think it’s a bit extreme to say Lou is taking us down a path to mediocrity. That said, I don’t like the way he’s handled Hill, Pie, Cedeno, and Soto (at the end of last season). I don’t think we can predict with any level of certainty what that will mean in the long run, but I’d stop short of sounding the death knell.

Two, I want to see what Lou does now that Reed is obviously struggling at the plate (notwithstanding his homer the other night) before I’m ready to pronounce on his proclivity to play veterans. Perhaps if they do bring Edmonds in, and he sucks, Lou will have no other option than to play Pie. There’s still a lot of season left and remember that Lou didn’t settle on a lineup last season until mid to late May. Give him a little leeway here and see what happens.

There is something fundamental to baseball that many of you need to get your arms around. Minor league performance, in and of itself, is not an infallible predictor of future major league success. If it was then the major leagues would be overrun with the Josh Kroegers and Jason Dubois’ of the world winning batting titles and MVP awards.

I’m very tired of the Lou Piniella bashing when it comes to Felix Pie. Fact is Piniella has had front row seat to Felix Pie for quite some time now. Piniella and his staff have also worked incredibly hard with Felix Pie. So how therefore can some sit there and bash Piniella’s handling of Pie? Piniella has zero stake in seeing Pie fail. Quite the opposite in fact.

Nobody has better understanding and grasp of Pie’s strengths and shortcomings than Piniella. Nobody. If it is his determination that Pie isn’t all that he was cracked up to be and isn’t worthy of granting gobs of valuable major league at bats to, then who is anybody to question that thinking. Despite what too many of you think, the silver bullet solution isn’t always to simply let him have lots of at bats to gain his footing.

If Piniella has determined its ill-advised to keep wasting major league at bats on Felix Pie then that speaks VOLUMES.

Link

Notice something missing?

That’s right, there’s no comparative data on Felix. No “Similar at Age 23”, no “Similar Hitter”, nothin’. Nada. Not a thing.

To me, that tells me two things: 1) 23 is really REALLY young to judge a ball player. 2) Felix hasn’t gotten much of a chance to prove himself.

Why give up on Felix? He’s hurting noone in a tough defensive position, in fact, he’s a plus-defender in CF. LET HIM PLAY!

Lou is a great manager. But aren’t all managers somewhat flawed? Prone to a mistake now and then? Blue Mike wants to forever bathe in the glowing perfection of Lou, LaRussa, and Duncan without challenging decisions. So be it. Point is, Lou can be the right man for the job and still make mistakes.

I do not like the Edmonds signing because it reeks of a faint but present desperation and reminds me of the Yankees after their streak of titles ended. Always looking to put that ‘name’ out on the field; proven, but aging entities that allow casual fans to find hope in the comfort of a familiar name. Maddux is another example…I think he’d be a great upgrade over Marquis, but his arrival would be overhyped simply because of his name.

I will agree with MDBNIU on one point however, and that is that one must wonder how the Cubs are viewing Pie and his future. A lack of faith in Pie concerns me more than his play.

I just hope that if we sign Edmonds, he doesn’t see a major league field until he has proven himself for about 3 weeks in the minors. Don’t do this guy any favors.

It’s really easy to go back and cherry pick winning teams, apply some creative hindsight to their moves, and say “See! That’s what it takes to win!”

You could easily do this with the 2005 White Sox, point at things like the Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik trade and say “It takes smallball to win World Series!”

Or to point at the 2006 St Louis Cardinals and say, “It takes proven veterans to win World Series!”

Or to point at the 2007 Red Sox and say, “It takes OBP to win a World Series!”

Lou wants to win the way Lou knows how to win. I’m certainly not defending the Edmonds move – that’s a terrible, terrible idea. But, it’s possible this is a stopgap because he does have faith in Pie, the same way he does with Hill, and just thinks he needs some repetition to make the adjustments he needs.

Reed Johnson in the last month: .244/.649

Felix Pie in the last month: .244/.660

i dont care if Jake Peavy’s on the mound tonight, there is ZERO reason for Pie to be on the bench onight as long as Edmonds worthless ass is not on the roster.

So-——-Theriot is playing great (offensivly) getting on base scoring runs yada yada..Now we are going to hit him 8 where IMO we lose his ability to score on one of the many Lee doubles.

PLEASE LOU OPEN YOUR EYES-—-Just say NO

Lou is almost 65 years old. Anybody have thoughts on when age starts to effect brain power for baseball managers (not saying Lou is there yet)?

I think Leyland was 63 as AL manager of the year in 06. It just seems like age would have to be a factor at some point.

I’m going to make a fanpost about that. I’m so tired of people crying about Pie, Hill and Cedeno. SICK OF IT!!!. So much I hardly come to this site, or any other Cubs site for that matter because that’s all anyone talks about. Cub fans have become obsessed AND INUNDATED with their attatchment to these OVERHYPED …........ARGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! Cub fans apparently Just need something to whine about and it’s never been a problem to Cub fans to cry about their beloved pathetic “prospects”.

and yes….this is coming from LEMON20PIE!!!!! Who has never been shy of spewing his displeasures about this organization…....LET IT GOOOOOOOO!!!! Enjoy the product on the field, because it’s finally a good one and something I can and have begun to believe that WITH A COUPLE MOVES, can make it to the World Series. Pie doesn’t belong at this level right now. PERIOD. No, he shouldn’t play against righties, because it’s painfully obvious to people that actually know the game, like Lou Piniella that he is not ready to contribute to a team so close to the verge of what we’ve all been wanting since 1945. Let him get his hacks in at Iowa, not at this level PLEASSSSEEEE!!!!!

Enjoy it damn it!!!!!! The Cubs are going to win tonight and then tomorrow. Most likely without Cedeno, Hill or Pie and continue to play well on this homestand, most likely without Hill, Cedeno or Pie.

You’re KILLING ME BCB!!!!

... it is easy to keep him in the lineup. Pie hasn’t had an OPS higher than .606 all year. Ellsbury beat that by his 10th at bat last year, and never came back down. Tulo went above that his first day, and was up above that for good 70ABs in.

The other teams haven’t won. The Pads suck, the Brewers are regressing. So there is no great key to winning by playing rookies who struggle.