We're Gonna Cheer, And Boo, And Raise A Hullabaloo, At The Ballgame Today
by Al on May 15, 2008 4:53 PM CDT
in Recaps
297 comments
When Jessica returned from one of her many sojourns through Wrigley Field, she reported that she overheard someone saying, "I don't know how I feel about cheering for Jim Edmonds. It's just weird."
That's exactly right. It's just weird, and Edmonds got both booed and cheered today -- a mix of sorts when introduced, and when coming out to the field for the first time; cheers when he singled in the second inning, and then booed when he hit into a double play in the fourth and struck out with the bases loaded in the seventh.
That's what today's 4-0 Cubs win over the Padres was -- many ovations, and some booing, for several different players and situations. (And if you are of "a certain age", you will remember the title of today's post as coming from the song "It's A Beautiful Day For A Ballgame", the song that is heard at the ballpark before each game, and used to be the game intro song on WGN radio.)
Ryan Dempster was the recipient of two loud ovations; first, when he came up to bat in the bottom of the eighth after throwing eight shutout innings and it was clear that Lou was going to let him at least start the ninth. Dempster was outstanding today, scattering those four hits through 8, walking only one and striking out twelve (a new career high for him). When he ran into trouble in the 9th -- Brian Giles, who has his number, having three of the six eventual hits off Dempster, doubled and Kevin Kouzmanoff singled (Larry Rothschild got booed when he quickly ran out to talk to Dempster before Kouzmanoff's AB), Lou didn't hesitate to go to Kerry Wood, as Dempster had thrown 115 pitches (77 strikes, very impressive). Dempster left the field to a huge ovation.
Wood, who looked shaky yesterday, dispatched Khalil Greene and pinch-hitter Josh Bard on strikes, and the game ended with another ovation.
Meanwhile, former Cub Greg Maddux gave up hits left and right to the Cubs over the first four innings -- six of them through four -- but escaped any scoring; once in the fourth on the Edmonds DP ball, but before that after throwing a pitch to the bricks behind the plate with Aramis Ramirez on third. The ball bounced so quickly off the wall back to catcher Luke Carlin that Ramirez, who had broken quickly enough, was still out by about 20 feet. Too bad, because Edmonds, who was batting at the time, singled, and so did Ronny Cedeno, and the Cubs could have had a big inning. Maddux gave up hits to the first four batters in the fifth, and that plus a sac fly chased him.
Whereupon he left to loud cheers that I can only describe as "wistful" -- it was a "thank you for the memories" cheer, and perhaps also a "please come back for one last hurrah if you can" cheer. Maddux, from what I hear, has told friends this may be his last season, and, with the Padres mired in last place, he was asked if he thought this would be his last appearance in Wrigley Field, and he refused to answer.
I'm not predicting anything, and frankly, if Maddux pitches like he did today (his shortest outing of the year), maybe the Cubs would have second thoughts about bringing him back. Sentimentally, sure, it'd be great. But Jim Hendry & Co., if they are even considering this, would have to first decide if he's got enough left in the tank.
Same thing with Jim Edmonds, and I have received emails today from people saying they would never, ever root for him, and I just don't understand that. Did I want him here? No. Do I think he has anything lef? No. But if he does produce, and helps the Cubs win, I'm all for it. We were trying, in the bleachers today, to think of any player, anyone, who was as hated as Edmonds is by Cubs fans, who eventually became a Cub, and really couldn't come up with anyone. Howard Johnson was about as close as we could come; he played half a season for the 1995 Cubs and was just about as done as I think Edmonds is now. But Johnson wasn't really hated by Cubs fans; he was only disliked because he was a Met. Having Edmonds is like what it would have been to get Lenny Dykstra, long after he was done.
Enough about that -- I want to rave about Dempster again; this was his best game as a Cub and probably his best since July 3, 2001, when he threw a four-hit shutout against the Expos in Montreal, when still a Florida Marlin. And he only struck out two that day. It's too bad he didn't finish... the complete game has really become a thing of the past. There have been only six CG thrown in the National League so far this year, and only two CG shutouts -- one by Tim Hudson, one by Ben Sheets.
Kudos also today to Ronny Cedeno, who had two hits, drew a walk and again had good AB every time up. Please, Lou: more playing time for Ronny. And, also to Derrek Lee, who had two hits and two RBI and looked better at the plate than he has all week.
In addition to Jessica, BCB reader Tex (who doesn't post much but is in town visiting from Texas) stopped by to say hi, as did BCB reader calicubfan (Rob, visiting from California; hey -- thanks for the beer!) and we were also joined by former Cubs publications director Jim McArdle, who is spending this summer working on a book about the 2008 season. Hey, Jim: nice talking to you about the Cubs and this site and enjoying a big win.
Big win indeed: six-and-one on this homestand, 17-7 overall at home, and now two games in first place after the Pirates destroyed the Cardinals' bullpen today and won 11-5. Things are good. Onward to beat the Pirates (geez, we're playing them again?) this weekend.
Final note: I wrote about this a couple of weeks ago, but I wanted to call your attention, in case you missed it, to this article in today's Tribune about the "Way Out In Left Field Society", which has lobbied and finally won the right to put an historical marker on the site of West Side Grounds at 912 S. Polk in Chicago, the site where the Cubs won their only two World Series. To which I say, "About time!"
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1st post
how bout them cubbies!!
It might beeeeee!! It could beeeeeee!! It issssss!! Homerun!! Holyyyyyyy Cow!!!
by cubsluver22 on May 15, 2008 4:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought Lou was the one who came out in the 9th to talk to Demp, not Larry.
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
by northsider on May 15, 2008 4:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It was...
Len joking asked “Are they Lou-ing or Boo-ing… Now they’re cheering…he’s leaving him in”
by MillsChC on May 15, 2008 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was Lou?
I didn’t think Lou could run that fast.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 15, 2008 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Len was surprised about that too
cause he noted that that wasn’t Lou’s usual method of going to the mound
by MillsChC on May 15, 2008 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW Jim's a great guy...
his book is just another reason I hope this season is the one.
by MillsChC on May 15, 2008 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed about Jim McArdle.
I really enjoy talking baseball with him.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 15, 2008 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dempster only walked one, not two, Al.
"I think Hendry still has a few years to serve on his 'grand larceny' sentence before he can shop in Pittsburgh again" - ballhawk
by NittanyCub on May 15, 2008 5:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You're right.
Don’t know where I got two walks. I’ll fix the post. One walk is even more impressive.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 15, 2008 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well if Edmonds goes 1-4 everyday
then I wouldn’t mind. I don’t really like him but I hope he suceeds. I couldn’t watch today, was he booed?
2008 Cubs: Why Beat A Team in Regulation, when you can beat them in extras?
by Chanman25 on May 15, 2008 5:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Read the post...
... recap of the recap: mixed reaction when announced, cheered when he got the hit, booed when he hit into the DP and struck out.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 15, 2008 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
1-4 with a walk would be ok
Just 1-4 ….. Pie [previous lefty CF] could do that.
"Is there anything he can't do?" ~Len Kasper, 4/5/08, on Kosuke Fukudome
by JohnM on May 15, 2008 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hate to be negative
but edmonds looked more clueless at the plate then pie. drives me insane to see a player consistantly swing at balls a mile outside.
It might beeeeee!! It could beeeeeee!! It issssss!! Homerun!! Holyyyyyyy Cow!!!
by cubsluver22 on May 15, 2008 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he left SEVEN on base
1-4 with 7 LOB, no thanks
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
that will happen when you just miss a HR when the wind is blowing in, and face a LH pitcher with the basesload and one out when you should be pinch hit for in that situation. All things considered Edmonds had a good day especially when you factor in he hasn’t seen live pitching in six days. Anybody who wants to bash him about today just has something against the guy.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow... really?
talk about an apologist
the line drive that didnt even make it to the warning track…. would’ve gone out????
and if he can’t be expected to produce after sitting for 6 days then he’s not prepared to be the LH hitting CF for the Chicago Cubs
Oh wait… Edmonds probably won’t get that treatment
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it might have gone out.
The wind was blowing in pretty good today. Off the bat that ball looked like it had a chance.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 15, 2008 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough
so we can agree in an alternate universe where the wind wasn’t blowing in Edmonds MIGHT have hit a HR
of course in this alternate universe it also MIGHT have still been caught
regardless i’m not sure how a 1-4 with 7 LOB can be considered a good day all things considering as the poster above would suggest
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, it wasn't a good day....
... especially the K with the bases loaded.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 15, 2008 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Keep telling yourself that
The point is he hit the ball really well in two AB’s, and shouldn’t have been in the spot he was in the 7th inning. Edmonds was brought in to face RH pitching not face a LH pitcher with the bases load and one out. For example if the Cubs put Chad Fox in to save the game in the 9th, and he blows the game. Is it Chads fault for sucking, or Piniella for putting him in a bad postion to be successful? This is pretty much the samething.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you watch the game?
Even Len and Bob were talking about it. Stop being dumb and bashing Edmonds because you don’t like him. The point is Edmonds should have been 1 for 3 which is a solid day and with a little luck he could had a big day and gone 2 for 3 with a HR
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes i watched it
couldn’t listen to it because i was at work
Len and Bob are pretty biased in the other direction, so i wouldn’t have cared much what they said anyway, i take them with a grain of salt. They almost NEVER question Cubs management
he ended up 1-4 with 7 LOB, it’s not a good game. I don’t even hate Edmonds, i hate the acquisition of Edmonds but i have no grudge against the man himself. I don’t hate any Cardinals or rival players
The acquisition was a pointless one that tied our hands at CF for years to come while simulatenously de-valuing our top prospect (once again)
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tied our hands in CF for years to come?
On what do you base this statement? He’s likely to be released in three weeks if he still sucks, and even if he has a good year, he won’t be a Cub past October, 2008.
Now try again.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 15, 2008 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok
sending Pie down uses his last option. You have a manager that doesn’t want to play him, so providing that manager with other options places Pie further away from playing time. Next season we’ll have the same exact problem we have now (Edmonds and Johnson arent the answer) and Pie will be left as the only option.
What do we do then? Pie can’t go to the minors, so we need to either play him or move him. We have a manager that is against playing him and the league knows this
its devalued Pie considerably
the only way this isn’t a long-term mess is if Edmonds fails and somehow Pie is given a chance to win the job outright. Otherwise he’s not going to get a chance until we have no roster flexibility to hold onto him
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope
sending Pie down uses his last option. You have a manager that doesn’t want to play him, so providing that manager with other options places Pie further away from playing time. Next season we’ll have the same exact problem we have now (Edmonds and Johnson arent the answer) and Pie will be left as the only option.Who says that sending down Pie won’t help fix his issues at the plate? Ronny Cedeno is a guy who had very simlair struggles to Pie at the plate. He got sent down and had made adjustments at the plate that Pie needs to make. Pie is always working with the same guy who helped Cedeno make those same adjustments. All this does is force Pie to stay on the roster next year, even as a 5th outfielder. After three seasons in Triple A and all the work the Cubs people have done with him if he better improve at the plate by next year.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
using him as a 5th OF
devalues him
just like Ronny’s value was SHOT heading into this season and can’t seem to find his way back into playing time
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OMG
why do we care about value, were trying to make these guys good baseball players. Having Pie hit 240 this year and playing everyday is gonna make his value crap just like it did to Cedenos in 06. I bet Cedeno has a ton more value then he did a few months ago even playing off the bench. Fans need to stop worrying about how much value players need to have and trying to make them good baseball players. If Pie keeps at the pace he is with the strike zone he has he’s gonna be another Jacque Jones or Corey Patterson. We need to get the player right and playing well and worry about value later.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
his minor league track record suggests
he’s more like Curtis Granderson than Corey Patterson
WHY CAN’T HE LEARN TO MAKE ADJUSTMENTS AT THE BIG LEAGUE LEVEL
WE’RE GETTING ZERO PRODUCTION OUT OF CF WITHOUT PIE IN THERE, WHY CAN’T WE SEE IF HE CAN DEVELOP THIS YEAR
our highest possible ceiling as a team is with Felix Pie in CF, this is the PERFECT time to let him work through things at the major league level
he hasn’t been given any semblance of consistent playing time
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes you can
Pie still strikes out way too much while hitting 362 in just 229 AB’s and still doesn’t walk enough. Whats easier for a young player playing everyday in Triple A and improving on your strike zone issues, or trying to do it in the majors on a contending team with the fans booing you and the media all over you for sucking? How many times have the Cubs just handed guys jobs and let them play? How has that worked out for us?
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Dubois, Ronny Cedeno, Corey Patterson, Kevin Orie and others say hello by the way. Lets play Pie everyday when his skills are ready to play everyday in the majors.The key to Pie’s success is to look past his stats and evaluate the progress he’s making on certain fundamentals at the plate. He needs to shorten his swing and change his approach.The problem with the Cubs org. is that we reward players based on their stats, but not necessarily based on their readiness for a particular level of play. Pie was clearly overmatched at the plate because of the holes in his swing
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ryne Sandberg also says, "Hi"
and is glad the Cubs let him work through his difficulties at the ML level. When your difficulty is getting a hold of ML pitching, seeing more AAA pitching doesn’t help matters. There is a significant degree of difference between an AB against Les Walrond and an AB against Jake Peavy.
by DGU on May 15, 2008 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then
why is Pie still struggling to make contact and take walks against Les Walrond of the world? The point is Pie still has many holes he needs to correct, and it’s alot easier to take advantage of it in the major leagues.If he corrects those issues and he should have a better chance at success in the major leagues.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you mean to say “minor leagues” in your second sentence there.
I don’t see how Pie learns to hit major league pitching in the minors. By definition, it’s impossible. I suppose he could do batting practice against Rich Hill, but do we really care if Felix Pie can take Rich Hill yard? :D
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 15, 2008 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is he struggling?
His career line of .300/.355/.469/.824 in the minors would seem to indicate otherwise. I’m not even sure he’s played a game since he went down 21 hours ago. But of course, now you’re going to say that he’s a AAAA ball player. And that’s what makes circular logic so much fun. You really only need an immediate inference and then when the premise is denied, you assert the conclusion; when the conclusion is denied, you assert the premise.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on May 15, 2008 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
I still think PIe has a chance to be a good player. You can’t just look at the fact he hit well in half the season last year. You gotta look at the fact that he still striked out alot and still didn’t walk enough. So that teams me many of the better minor league pitchers were still getting him out the way major league pitchers have.
I would be much more impressed and excited for Pie to be successful, if he hits 350 and strikes out less or learns to walk more.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For example
Cedeno hit 355 but didn’t walk alot and still striked out alot. Then guess what happen in 2006 he got his chance hit 245/271 walked 17 times and striked out 109 times in 534 AB’s Then looked ever worse off the bench in a limited role last year. But he worked on his strike zone in the minors and in winter ball and now were seeing the results.
So instead of putting Pie out there everyday to hit 240, lets have him working on these adjustments right now. It’s very hard to make these adjustments in the major leagues especially on a contending team.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you learn to drive a car
on a go-cart track?
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on May 15, 2008 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better yet:
I know how to drive my car, but that doesn’t mean I’m ready to be a NASCAR driver. I can go to driving school every day for the rest of my life and still not be ready. The only way to learn is drive the racecar in a race. Pie has nothing to learn in AAA. He’s ready for the big track.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on May 15, 2008 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's the only way
thats the point Pie still has plenty of things to approve on in the minors. Thats what some fans aren’t getting I think. He has one big season in the minors, but it wasn’t even a full year.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No he is not...
...simply because over two seperate seasons, he has been badly overmatched at the big league level.
But, there is good news. People who probably know what they are looking at, have found the problem he needs to fix, so he stops looking like he is overmatched at this level. There is nothing that will prohibit him from making that physical change at AAA an carry that change with him to the big leagues when it is ingrained.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
there is
something preventing him from getting to make those adjustments at the big league level though
and his name is Lou Pineilla
Look at Cedeno as a perfect example, those in support of Pie being sent down cite Ronny. Well Ronny has supposedly made all these adjustments and then when an injury comes up (Soriano) that he can get playing time, Lou turns to Fontenot
What’s to say Lou won’t do the exact same thing whenever Pie’s recalled again, turning to whatever older player Lou has available
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 16, 2008 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's possible...
...your right and it’s possible you are wrong in regards to placing Pie’s failings on Piniella.
It’s also possible that it was a mistake to bring Pie North to start the season. If he had 30 games or so to concentrate on his swing at AAA, he may be in a better position right now to be a productive ML hitter.
We’ll never know the definitive answers to any of these questions, because you can’t turn back the clock and try a different route. It does allow for some interesting discussion though.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 16, 2008 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not totally
but you can get a good idea of what to do. If some of the better minor league pitchers are still striking out Pie to much and he’s still not walking much. Whats gonna happen against major league pitchers? Pie needs a better understanding of the strike zone.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The biggest mistake
is to think Pie was this awesome player in the minors, He’s never had a fullseason with a 800 OPS. He’s never hit above 300 in a fullseason. The most he has ever walked in a season was 46 times and that was in 559 AB’s. He’s striked out 98,116 and 128 times in his last three fullseasons in the minors as well.
Yes Pie was a consistently good average wise in his career, and he has a huge half season last year. So I don’t agree that this guy has nothing left to learn in Triple A. It would be a different story if he didn’t strike out 40 times in 55 games last year or only was 19 times in 229 AB’s.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are plenty of successful hittes who strike out a lot.
Strikeouts can be an indicator of potential problems, but you cannot claim Pie was nothing in the minors. He was a top 50 prospect in 2007, a top 30 prospect in 2006, a top 35 prospect in 2005, and a top 100 prospect in 2004. All along that way, people whose jobs are to identify talent saw major talent in Pie.
Why do you think you can overrule their opinions by counting strikeouts?
by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said
he wasn’t a good minor league player, and he doesn’t have a ton of talent that made him a top notch prospect. I’m just saying he still has plenty to learn in the minors. If he can improve just on a few things he could possible stick in the majors. Plus it’s not so much the strike outs, it’s the strike outs and lack of walks mixed together.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You said, and I quote:
“The biggest mistake is to think Pie was this awesome player in the minors.”
Pie was a top 100 prospect 4 years running and would have been 5 years running had he not been called up to sit the bench in the Majors last year. If that’s not “awesome” then there’s no such thing as an “awesome player” in the minors.
by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a difference between
putting up awesome numbers, and being ranked a awesome prospect. What I’m trying to say is that people act like he put up huge numbers(did that once for half a season and still had plenty flaws) and is so good he has nothing left to prove down there. So it’s not true, because Pie still needs to improve against LH pitching, he still needs to either strike out less, or walk more, and a few other things.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm confused.
Was Pie an awesome player in the minors or not?
His 2007 prospect rating included a look at how he fared against AAA pitching.
by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was ranked
a awesome player because of his talent, and had a huge half season in Triple A last year. Other then that no he didn’t put up awesome numbers. Even half of last season he still had plenty of flaws about his swing, that were capialized on 100 times more in the majors. If he can fix those flaws in the minors and it will be easier to adjust in the majors.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, this is the problem
with just looking over minor league stats. Most of us don’t know the context. We don’t know the overall state of the leagues and parks any individual player hit in. Pie’s #s may not look good to you, but did you compare them to all the other hitters in that same league of a similar age? I know I can’t do that. But Baseball America can. And when they say that Felix Pie was an awesome player for four years running, I say, “Cool.”
by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you shorten...
...your swing as a hitter, you will also become a more selective hitter.
Why? Because if you are quicker with the bat to the ball, you have the confidence to wait a tad bit longer before you have to commit to your swing. Waiting that split second more, can be the difference between recognizing that breaking ball is going to bounce in front of the plate, or flailing away at it.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
and Lou worked with him, and so has Perry. Since they worked with him he has improved a little, but he still has away to go. Now Dave Keller will be with him day and night and try to make the same adjustments that he got Cedeno to make.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pie never got a chance this year.....
by crazymountain on May 15, 2008 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think your right...
...but that has more to do with his swing, than anything else.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or
it had more to do with Lou wanting an established LH bat than anything else.
We can both make our assertions until the cows come home. But in the end, it was Lou, for whatever reason, who chose not to give Pie the chance.
by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think...
...I ever said it wasn’t Lou that didn’t give him the chance. In fact, it was what Lou saw (or didn’t see) that caused him to make the decision that he did.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
we agree Lou chose not to give Pie a chance.
What we disagree about is WHY Lou chose not to give Pie a chance and/or if he was right not to give Pie a chance.
Others on this board have claimed that Pie had a chance, or even plenty of chances.
by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here is my take...
...on how much of a chance Pie got.
Was it an all out let him play 30-40 straight games and see what he does? No it was not. Did he get opportunities to show he was improving? Yes, although not for extended periods of time.
IMO, if Lou thought all Pie needed was more ML AB’s, he would have given them to him. But, I think Piniella kept seeing this faulty swing, that needed quite a bit of repair and knew Pie was going to spiral downward by throwing him out there over and over again with that swing.
This begs an obvious question; then why was Pie in the bigs for this long if Lou was not going to play him consistantly? That is a very good question, and it probably happened because Hendry wanted to see if Pie would catch on and force Lou’s hand.
I also think Lou would have preferered letting Pie start the season in AAA vs bringing him North, but few options and maybe playing along with Hendry allowed Pie to come North when he needed more time to work on that swing in AAA.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could be right, but what sticks in my craw
is that when Pie hit .500 over the course of 4 days, Lou benched him for 5 days.
If your struggling pet project suddenly showed signs of getting it and was smoking the ball, what would you, as a manager have done?
by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I recall...
...that stretch, but don’t know if the Cubs ended up facing some lefties or what the deal was. I’ll admit, there were times when they faced a righty, that I don’t think it would have been a big deal to throw Pie out there.
Now, I guess this shows how strongly Lou feels about this, and possibly some differences he has with Hendry on this subject.
I’ll close with this thought; Piniella is the kind of guy who believes if a hitter is ready to play at this level, he will find a way to take advantage of opportunities when provided. Agree or disagree with that, Lou is big on sending one clear message to his team – if you produce, you play.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree with that.
Lou expects a prospect – really, any player – to perform right away. If you do, you will have more opportunities to go through dry stretches.
by DGU on May 15, 2008 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think thats whats going on
This begs an obvious question; then why was Pie in the bigs for this long if Lou was not going to play him consistantly? That is a very good question, and it probably happened because Hendry wanted to see if Pie would catch on and force Lou’s hand.
Hendry wants Pie to be good right now, to increase his value and have a quality young player cheap everyday. While Lou doesn’t think Pie is ready, and thinks he’s going to struggle really bad playing alot.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To increase his value???
So, you think Hendry wants to trade him? What does ‘increase his value’ mean?
by crazymountain on May 15, 2008 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
he isn’t looking to trade him. But if there is a stud player you really wanna get Pie isn’t nearly has good as some teams top prospects so that does put us in a disadvantage.. I more mean he wants Pie to play everyday and is pushing for him to be good right now. Hendry is the one who didn’t bring in a everyday CF the last two offseason for these reasons. He’s waiting for Pie and he wants him to take over the job and get going. Piniella still thinks Pie needs alot of work at the plate, and shouldn’t be playing everyday in the majors, so there’s a conflict.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lou
made many comments over and over again about Pie swing, How he had to shorten it, and have a better understanding of the strike zone. He even worked with him to try to fix these issues. So I’m sure wants Pie to do well. He’s just not going to play him alot of he doesn’t feel he’s going to be successful. Personally I do think Piniella should have played Pie a little more though to see what they had. If Pie plays everyday and is hitting 220 right now I don’t think people would be quite as upset because it comes off not really giving Pie a chance. But Lou job is to win baseball games and put players in postion to win games.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And it's your supposition that if Pie can't hit...
...up to a certain level, he can’t put us in position to win games, regardless of the rest of his contribution.
by cwyers on May 15, 2008 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying
Pie can’t hit or gonna call him a AAAA player. I just think Pie isn’t quite ready to be a everyday major league player yet even against RH pitchers. He’s still 23 and has a ton of talent, he just needs to make improvements with the strike zone and so on.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That wasn't the question.
The question is, given our other options, you think that Pie doesn’t give us the best chance to win. Am I reading this right?
by cwyers on May 15, 2008 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll chime in...
...and say Piniella thinks Pie will continue to struggle quite a bit offensively if he does not have the right environment to work on his swing and he is willing to search for a short term solution while Pie is working at AAA.
The Edmonds experiment is meant to either just buy time (while Pie hopefully adjusts) or to take advantage of a guy (Edmonds) who may put up some numbers in the short term if he is invigorated by the opportunity.
Either way, it’s really a no lose situation. Pie gets his focused time to work on his swing, and you may get some short term production from Edmonds. If Edmonds shows he is done, you send him on his way and hopefully Pie is in a better position to help at that point.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends
on how much Edmonds has left. I think his defense will be fine if he stays healthy and playing in Wrigley alot will help. If he hits somewere between what he did against RH pitching the last two years, he will be a upgrade offensivly. I’m not really judging him on his slow start this year because he had a simliar start last year and also missed most of spring training this year. Plus some say he wasn’t fully healthy in most of April.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edmond's defense last season...
...was no great shakes. Pie’s defense was spectacular. My contention is that, even with his “ugly” swing, he still provides more value on the whole than Edmonds. It’s prioritizing offense over other things.
by cwyers on May 15, 2008 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You very well
could be right with the way the rest of our line-up is hitting. I think it depends on how bad Pie would be at the plate this year, and how good Edmonds ends up being or not.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, but
hindsight does us no good NOW. We cannot know what will happen NOW, and for the next 120+ games. The team should be making the decision based on the best overall value NOW.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 16, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lou's job is to win the World Series.
It’s a very different job than if he was just supposed to get to the playoffs.
by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a red herring.
You cannot, cannot, CANNOT “build a team to win the World Series”, nor can you manage that way, because once you get into the playoffs, it’s a crapshoot. Last year’s postseason is proof of that, if you needed any.
It is MUCH harder to make the playoffs than it is to win a postseason series.
I’m not sure what your point is here.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 16, 2008 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last year, Pittsburgh blew out Tom Gorzelanny's arm
in an effort to make him a 15-game winner. If your goal is to have a certain # of wins by the end of the regular season, there are certain things you will do to your roster that ignores the cost to the team for the future.
So let’s say A) the playoffs are a crapshoot and there is nothing you can do to improve your odds of winning the last game of the playoffs.
Well, then a team needs to do everything it can to widen its window of contention so that you can play that game of craps as many times as possible.
Or, B) there are some things you can do to increase your odds of winning the playoffs, even though they still remain rather random.
Well, then a team needs to make sure that it has the best, healthiest roster they can have for the playoffs.
In both cases, a long-term strategy has to seek to develop the high-ceiling talent that could be ready for the playoffs.
The only scenario in which you should ignore the high ceiling talent is if you think that talent is too risky and you are likely to miss the playoffs if you commit to them too long.
by DGU on May 16, 2008 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You just proved my point.
Yes, you need to do all those things to get the best possible talent for the playoffs.
But that’s all you can do. Once you get there, it’s a crapshoot.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 16, 2008 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure our points are contradictory at all.
My point is that the Cubs are betters served to make the playoffs by only being up 4 games on whomever ends up #2 if they have a better playoff roster than to be up 8 games with an inferior playoff roster.
i.e. the Cubs can not only afford to take some risks developing prospects, they would be foolish NOT to take those risks.
i.e. if the Cubs want a LH OF with some power and some speed for their ideal lineup, it’s more important to have that ideal lineup maximized in October than in May.
by DGU on May 16, 2008 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think in the last...
...10 years or so, playoffs in all sports have become more of a “crap shoot”. What I mean by that is regular season records tend to have less correlation with who wins the whole thing.
The reason for this is probably parity, and some of it is you rarely see baseball teams with absolutely dominant pitching staffs that can run you right through the playoffs.
With all this said, if I’m a GM, I am still trying to improve my club as much as I can and hope that one addition could be the difference in the end.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 16, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That all depends...
...why you are struggling at the ML level and every player is a different circumstance.
With some, it’s just confidence they need. With others, it could be a long swing that needs to be overhauled. The first one can be worked through much easier at the ML level, as opposed to trying to revamp a swing.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
shorten his swing and change his approach
this line of thinking is so ridiculously stupid i don’t know how to approach it anymore
the player was successful at EVERY level being a power hitting speedster who had great defensive skills in CF
now all of the sudden people want him to become a slap/contact hitter who gets on base
that hasn’t been his game at ANY level, why would we promote a prospect based on having tremendous success playing the game one way and then as soon as he gets to the big leagues ask him to change his entire game?
this makes NO SENSE
How about a near perfect comparison to Pie?
Player A minor league line: .300/.376/.496 (.872 OPS, ages 21-24, struck out in 22% of his AB’s)
Player B minor league line: .300/.355/.469 (.824 OPS, ages 17-22, struck out in 22% of his ABs)
so what happened when they got to the big leagues????
Player A was given consistent playing time as soon as he was promoted on July 22nd and played almost every day from there on out and hit .272/.314/.494 striking out in 26.5% of his 162 AB’s
Player B was yanked around and treated as a platoon 4th OF bench player and hit .215/.271/.333 striking out in 25% of his 177 ABs
The very next year Player A was hitting .260/.335/.438 and striking out in 29% of his AB’s, suggesting his contact rate and his power was dropping. But you know what? He played in 159 Games and was allowed to make adjustments at a level he had yet to dominate.
The next season Player A hit .302/.361/.552 and was an MVP candidate
The 2nd major league season for Player B he was again yanked around and not given consistent playing time, he hit .222/.286/.286 before being demoted to a level he’s already dominated hitting .306/.395/.484 in 788 AB’s
Player A = Curtis Granderson
Player B = Felix Pie
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not true
the player was successful at EVERY level being a power hitting speedster who had great defensive skills in CF
Really? Pie hasn’t had one fullseason in the minor leagues were he had a 800 OPS. In his two big years were everybody keep saying how great he was it came in 55-59 games and 229 and 240 AB’s.
Player A minor league line: .300/.376/.496 (.872 OPS, ages 21-24, struck out in 22% of his AB’s)Player B minor league line: .300/.355/.469 (.824 OPS, ages 17-22, struck out in 22% of his ABs)
Clearly you are again paying no attention to the fact that Granderson took a good amount of walks in the minors while Pie hasn’t. There’s a difference between strikes and striking out while taking walks.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well that's a compelling argument
since Pie had exactly three minor league seasons that would count as full seasons out of his 6 seasons that would count as full seasons and in those years he posted an OPS of .727 (18 year old in A) , .800 OPS (19 year old in High A), .792 OPS (21 year old in AAA). His career line is .300/.355/.469, so for his career he’s easily eclipsing your .800 OPS benchmark and he was young for every level he played at
yes, Granderson took more BB’s (12% rate vs. 8.5% rate), but he was also significantly older at every level
at the major league level they displayed the same BB Rates (Granderson’s 1st 187 AB’s 7.0%, Pie’s first 240 AB’s 7.5%)
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
since Pie had exactly three minor league seasons that would count as full seasons out of his 6 seasons that would count as full seasons and in those years he posted an OPS of .727 (18 year old in A) , .800 OPS (19 year old in High A), .792 OPS (21 year old in AAA). His career line is .300/.355/.469, so for his career he’s easily eclipsing your .800 OPS benchmark and he was young for every level he played at
From what I recall Pie was a very streaky player in the minors especially in 2006. Thats why I’m thinking he possibly might not have put up the numbers he did in 05 and 07 if he played fullseasons.
yes, Granderson took more BB’s (12% rate vs. 8.5% rate), but he was also significantly older at every level
That tells me has a better understanding of the strike zone. I hope people aren’t gonna think I think badly of Pie. I hope he’s a star and I’m a big fan of his talent and tools. But it’s pretty obvious by looking at parts of his minor league stats, and watching him bat in the majors. That he still has some work to do if he’s going to hit major league pitching on a consistent bases. I don’t think playing on a contending team in a big media part is the best place for Pie to learn these things.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know where...
...you got the slap hitter stuff, they are trying to shorten his swing so he can wait longer on pitches (so he isn’t swinging at breakers in the dirt) and make crisper contact to all fields.
If he has natural power, shortening his swing will not hurt him, it will help him to apply that power directly (as opposed to a looping motion) at where the ball is pitched.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Options
sending Pie down uses his last option.
No, it does not. There is not a finite number of times you can be called up and sent down. It is chronological, based upon your service time.
Pie needs to complete the transition to becoming a big league hitter. Sending him down to the minors to work on the finer points of hitting is something that must be done. If he takes care of business, he will be back. If he fails to, then perhaps he really isn’t the big league player some of us hoped he would be.
In the middle of a good time, Truth gave me her icy kiss. Look around, you must be joking. All that way, all that way for this -Oysterband
by Ross on May 15, 2008 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pie had one option year left.
Since he came north with the big club, sending him down makes this year his final option year. It’s burned. If the Cubs want to send him down again, he’ll have to clear waivers. Se also: Ronny Cedeno. If he wasn’t out of options, he’d probably be sent down, too, but there’s no way he’d clear waivers.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on May 15, 2008 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's no way
Cedeno would be sent down right now. He might not have made the team but he has clearly made the adjustments at the plate that Pie needs to make. Geovanny Soto is also out of options, if Pie improves his hitting and hitting the option factor is meaningless.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cedeno
won’t be sent down… you’re right about that… you know why?
BECAUSE HE CAN’T, HE’S OUT OF OPTIONS
that’s why he was in all these trade rumors and there were discussions about the fact we might have to cut him heading into this season, because we had used all his options and had no choice to roster him as a super utility guy
its why he had to learn how to play the OF in winter league
and despite all these adjustments he’s made, he still can’t see the damn field
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cedeno
is still a much improved hitter, and will get his chance to play at some point. You can’t bench your teams leading hitters so Cedeno can play, and there’s no other spots for him. But he still helps your team off the bench, and at some point will get a chance to play everyday at second or Short. Pie needs to make the simliar adjustments if he’s going to be a good player. It’s as simple as that.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In what sense is he the team's leading hitter?
...oh, in batting average. Right. Batting average. Henry Chadwick must be so proud of himself. Ryan Theriot leads the team in a cricket statistic, and so he’s our leading hittier. Good gravy.
by cwyers on May 15, 2008 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes he is
I know your biased, and thought it was IMPOSSIBLE that Theriot could hit. But so far he has done a good job and deserves to play. He’s second on the team in AB’s and is hitting 329 with a 408 OBP. If he struggles at some point and drops off like some think its only a matter of time. Then Cedeno will get his chance. But no manager with common sense would take out a guy hitting 330 who has done it playing everyday.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Lou did take out a guy hitting over .330:
RONNY CEDENO
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on May 16, 2008 7:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Options, part deux
The options thing is based on time on the 40-man roster.
Cedeno was placed on the 40 man roster prior to the 2005 season. Pie was on the 40 man roster prior to 2006. So, following the 2007 Cedeno was out of options. Pie’s last year of having options is this year. If he had spent the entire season in the minors, he would still be out of options.
Earlier this year, Rob Neyer listed the Cubs who are newly out of options as Ronny Cedeno, Geovany Soto, Angel Guzman. Why? Because they have all been on the 40-man roster for three years.
Here is the transactions primer on ESPN about waivers.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/transanctionsprimer.html
“Options”
After three years as a pro, a player must be protected on a team’s 40-man roster, or he is eligible for the Rule 5 draft (more on that later). Once he’s served those three years, and assuming he is added to the 40-man roster, his club then has what are called “options” on him.
When a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man Major League roster, he is on “optional assignment.” One common misconception about the rules is that a player may only be “optioned out” three times. Actually, each player has three option years, and he can be sent up and down as many times as the club chooses within those three seasons.
When you hear that a player is “out of options,” that means he’s been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he’ll have to clear waivers (more on those below).
In the middle of a good time, Truth gave me her icy kiss. Look around, you must be joking. All that way, all that way for this -Oysterband
by Ross on May 15, 2008 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are a finite number of years in which you can be on the protected...
...40-man roster and not on the 25-man roster. Pie can be optioned between AAA Iowa and the Cubs as often as they like (respecting the 10-day limit) this season. But he cannot be sent to the minors next season.
by cwyers on May 15, 2008 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why
because we sent Pie down to get much needed work on the strike zone? While Edmonds plays to see if he has anything left? Pie is far from the perfect player right now and probably isn’t ready to hit in the major leagues. Even though he hit 362 in part of a season in Triple A, he still had many strike zone issues.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pie is less than a perfect player....
however he has the upside that Edmunds DOES NOT!!! So, cubsfan23, where do you learn to hit Major League pitching? At Iowa???? Damn, man, make some sense. Edmunds has a track record of VERY diminishing skills the last 4 years….
by crazymountain on May 15, 2008 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
maybe it wasn’t a good day results wise. But thats why I said all things considered. Which means he hit the ball well twice, and only struggled in a situation were he is unlikely to find himself in much.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and the DP
wasn’t a struggle?
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again
watch the game, the first few innings Maddux was very good, and getting a ton of ground balls. Sometimes you just gotta give the pitcher some credit for getting the players out.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
at that point in the game
Maddux had allowed 6 hits and recorded 7 outs for a nice OBP against of .461
were we watching the same game????
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you often...
...judge a player on 4 AB’s after not seeing live pitching for a week? And I would add, do you call that a fair judgment considering the guy has some very good career numbers?
I’m not saying he is going to light the world on fire, but gimme a break after 4 freaking AB’s.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he doesn't exist in a background.
He’s not appearing out of the mists. He was playing a week ago, before he got cut by the (at the time) worst team in baseball.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 15, 2008 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't quite get...
...your comment and how that relates to 4 AB’s. The guy went to the plate 4 times and hit the ball on the nose twice. If his performance today solidifies your thoughts that he is done, you judge a little quicker than I.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jim Edmonds
2007 (365 AB’s): .252/.325/.403, struck out in 20.5% of AB’s
2008 (90 AB’s): .178/.265/.233, struck out in 26.7% of AB’s
it’s not the 4 AB’s today as much as the last oh say…. 455 AB’s in which he’s hit .237/.330/.369 (struck out in 21.7% of his AB’s)
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I place his performance
within the context of his past.
And for what it’s worth, Pie did exactly the same thing in more than one game—get on base once in four at bats, while hitting the ball solidly twice and looking bad at least once.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 15, 2008 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's cool...
....I’ll give it a bit more time though, before I write off this off as a failure.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's cool
wish Lou would’ve done the same with Pie
I mean, if you’re willing to give 450+ AB’s of sub. 700 OPS performance and declining skills, i really wish you would manage the club
maybe then Pie could get even say 150 AB’s in a consistent manner and we’d have an idea whether he was legit or not
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously
stop with the Pie stuff, if you have eyes you could see he needs alot of work. I almost wish Pie had a chance to play everyday for two months, so this crap would stop. There was very little chance Pie would be a decent hitter at the plate this year. Anybody who can put the stat sheet down for a second and actually watch the player could tell he still has some work to do.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wishes
“I almost wish Pie had a chance to play everyday for two months, so this crap would stop.”
We feel the same way.
“Anybody who can put the stat sheet down for a second and actually watch the player could tell he still has some work to do.”
A great deal of my argument has been based on scouting report summaries, but, I can put those down, too, if you think it will help my player evaluation not to look at stats or listen to scouts.
by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get it...
...you think Lou made a big mistake by not giving Pie the opportunity to play through his struggles, and you ain’t happy about it.
Well, at least the team is off to a pretty good start, and Pie is going to get lots of AB’s to show he is making the appropriate adjustments to his swing.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but not against
major league pitching.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 15, 2008 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
With the adjustments...
...he has to make, that may be a very good thing.
What he has to change has more to do with the mechanics of his swing, as opposed to what pitching he is seeing. Muscle memory takes a while to change, and those mechanical adjustments are best suited at AAA.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how is that different
From Pie platooning with Reed Johnson?
I bet we could have seen the exact same result from Felix.
This guy is supposed to give us something Pie doesn’t have. Yes, it’s only one game, but…
Where is it?
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 15, 2008 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
MrEd hit .500 against RHP. Perhaps the blame belongs on Lou for not pinch-hitting RJ for MrEd like he would have if it was Pie. j/k
by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That ball he hit...
..to CF was smoked, and would have been at least a double over the guys head with normal wind.
Let’ give the guy a little time to see what he can do with the bat and then decide whether this move was helpful.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
the first three AB’s weren’t bad, he got a single in the first, hit into a double play in the 4th, but most of the hitters were hitting ground balls at that time. In his third AB he crushed the ball and if he hits it to right or left or on a day the wind isn’t blowing in it’s a 3 run HR. Edmonds 4th AB was pretty bad, but it was against LH pitcher, in a big situation. Edmonds even the last few years has been a sub 200 hitter against LH pitching, there’s no reason he should have had that AB in that spot.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He hit a ball....
that on a different day could have maybe gotten out, or least to the wall. I don’t think he looked to bad at the plate, certainly better than Pie. Oh and by the way…..I really don’t like Edmonds.
by Imtrejo on May 15, 2008 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few things
First off, one thing that seemed different about Dempster today was that he was (intentionally or not) pitching to contact. Innings one and two had a pitch total of 13 between the two of them wereas in his last start, i believe he had 15 pitches… in each of the first two frames. IMO Dempster has great stuff and can wrack up the Ks but he at his best when he does that as well as gets some quick outs.
Secondly… I didn’t chime in re: Maddux in the previous posts, but today’s outing showed why he would not be a good acquisition. Even the last year or two he was a 70-80 pitch pitcher. Going after a guy who is going to, more days than not, throw 5 or 6 innings at the most, is not what this team needs. I realize that Maddux will go out there from time to time, have good movement, and what not, but so is Jason Marquis and Jon Lieber. Maddux was great and I’m glad that we got to see him back in a cubs uniform a few years back but if the Cubs want to win a World Series, they would be well advised to allow Maddux remain in San Diego.
DmL
by dmlichte on May 15, 2008 5:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that Maddux has a lot left in the tank.
He’s valuable as an innings eater at this point, but I think a summer at Wrigley wouldn’t be pretty for him or us. His home ERA is 1.94; his road ERA is 5.35 after today’s game. He’s really not pitching as well as his numbers might lead you to believe at first glance.
He’s valuable to a club that has a need to shore up the back end of their rotation with an innings-eater, I suppose; the Cubs have multiple options like that in Lieber and Marquis, among others. I’d pass.
by cwyers on May 15, 2008 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
Maddux still has value to most teams, but not to the Cubs. If we are going to add a starter, it needs to be a top-tier starter. We have plenty of options to provide back-of-the-rotation quality, and that’s what he’s likely to provide at this point.
by SouthernCub on May 15, 2008 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Maddux has more than enough left in the tank
The road number is highly scewed by the AZ debacle. However I do agree that the
Cubs don’t have a whole lot of need of him especially compared to other teams. Clearly
he would a much better and more relieable 4/5 starter than we have but the Dodgers who
are by far the most likely canditate for his services have shakier starting pitching and much
better location. Cubs are a REAL long shot but he needs to get out of San Diego
unless they can hit
by Doggie Stalker on May 15, 2008 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also think Maddux has enough left in the tank
We keep forgetting the Cubs are a really good hitting team right now. We hit Jake Peavy pretty hard. I think Maddux has value for some team, just not the Cubs. I got last minute tickets and was glad I got to see him pitch at Wrigley, for what I believe will be his last time.
by mgfabc on May 15, 2008 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's got to be better than...
....Steve Trachsel. :)
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls. More democratic. ---Crash Davis
by carmen_fanzone on May 16, 2008 5:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gallgher pitches tomorrow
say he pitches well, give him another start? I could see him actually staying in the rotation if he pitches well enough
2008 Cubs: Why Beat A Team in Regulation, when you can beat them in extras?
by Chanman25 on May 15, 2008 5:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Sure, why not?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 15, 2008 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah.
And if Marquis pitches poorly, then why not call up Hill and find at least 1 suitor for Marquis?
by Unique on May 15, 2008 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because...
Hill can’t find the strike zone?
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls. More democratic. ---Crash Davis
by carmen_fanzone on May 16, 2008 5:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gallagher is in a three-man race...
for two spots. If he pitches well, then either Lieber or Marquis will move to the bullpen.
by SouthernCub on May 15, 2008 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or...
as Unique noted, Marquis might be traded for a bag of balls, Lieber might be sent to the pen, and Hill might return to the rotation.
by SouthernCub on May 15, 2008 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
absolutely.
Let’s see what he does with some prep time.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 15, 2008 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Despite the results on Sunday...
... 4 ER in 4.1 IP (two of the runs scored after he was out of the game), I thought Gallagher threw pretty well. Agreed on prep time. The weather should be nice today, much more conducive to baseball than Sunday’s cold and rainy day was.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 16, 2008 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wood per Gameday
I talked the other day about Wood having a “starter’s mentality” that he had to establish the fastball first and then the breaking stuff. I mentioned that he should throw his best pitches the most, ala Hoffman. Well, today was encouraging. He started the first hitter with three straight breaking pitches and then finished him off (I believe) with his fastball at 96 MPH. The next hitter he got by throwing 5 straight breaking pitches. Those are around 81-84 and some have 12” break which you usually don’t see combined with that high velocity (they are usually around mid 70’s unless the pitcher is very filthy like Wood or Marmol). All in all, I love what I saw.
by Luis on May 15, 2008 5:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I rewatched that part on the TiVo
by my count he threw 8 breaking balls and 3 fastballs. All the heat was to Khalil where Wood just reached back and dared Greene to hit the gas so as to avoid the walk.
Seemed more of a test-run than anything else – trying to work out issues with the slider that popped up last nite.
WOXY.com - The Future of Rock and Roll
by Gibbon Jockey on May 15, 2008 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'm not going to lie. If I was there, I would have given a boo.
For me, this almost feels like having Favre QB’ing the Bears,or Billups running the point for the Bulls. It’s Jim Freakin’ Edmonds for crying out loud.
Whatever, though. If he makes the Cubs win games, it can’t be that bad.
Just for a couple laughs: when I goto Wrigley this summer, I can’t wait to say “The Cardinals just aren’t as good as the Cubs, right Edmonds? Can’t you just wait to beat the hell out of them? GO CUBS!“
I wonder what his reaction would be
"I think Hendry still has a few years to serve on his 'grand larceny' sentence before he can shop in Pittsburgh again" - ballhawk
by NittanyCub on May 15, 2008 5:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
In fact,
Edmonds wanted back in the NL Central to show the Cardinals he does has something left. I guess he was “unhappy” they traded him to the Pads. If he comes to us wanting to pound the Cardinals that’s enough for me to clap once or twice for the guy. It’s like he came back from the dark side …..now he will know what it’s like to play in front of the greatest fans in MLB.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
by mrcubsfan on May 15, 2008 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
About the scorecard
Al,
Thanks for posting your scorecards. I’m teaching my 8 year old how to score this season and I have a question—if it’s inappropriate for this thread sorry.
When a team bats around in an inning, where do you put the 2nd at bats for individual players? The next inning? That doesn’t seem right.
Thanks for the help. Nice win today!!!!
by AlabamaCubFan on May 15, 2008 5:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That's what I was taught.
You cross out the inning number and put the previous inning number there….and then hope the game doesn’t go into extra innings or they bat around again..haha.
by MillsChC on May 15, 2008 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It has to go in the next inning.
Now, some people (Mike will) then put the succeeding inning in the next column. I’ll start the next inning in the SAME inning that I put the overflow—this, to me, visually shows you how they batted around several times.
If I get a chance I’ll post the card from Monday night which shows this clearly.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 15, 2008 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks a lot
It’s a nice problem to have this season for sure
by AlabamaCubFan on May 15, 2008 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Batting Around
I do it the way Al does, and put a little box in the upper left corner for each batter with the proper inning number.
The Artist Formerly Known as Chris
by 08Cubs on May 15, 2008 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa - Maybe it WILL be the Astros 1.5 behind us
They just tied it with 4 in the 8th. 7-7.
---
Wait a minute... who am I here?
by malicedoom on May 15, 2008 5:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Question about the West Side Grounds
I don’t live in Chicago and was wondering, is the park still standing? Or has something replaced it?
2008 Cubs: Why Beat A Team in Regulation, when you can beat them in extras?
by Chanman25 on May 15, 2008 5:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Read the linked article to find out.
The short answer is, no, it’s not there any more, it’s long gone. But read the link.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 15, 2008 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al, You got the address wrong.
It’s 912 South Wood, Polk is an East-West Street.
by Imtrejo on May 15, 2008 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, you're right.
Typed the wrong designation. 912 S. Wood is correct.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 16, 2008 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Enough Cautionary Tales, 25-16 Is Great
Yeah, I know, I remember 1985 and 1987, but this team won’t fade. If healthy, this team is going to continue to play well because there are so many “team” guys like Dempster, D-Lee, Dome, and Wood. You feel really good about rooting for this team. I’m enjoying this start and not concerning myself with the horror stories of the past.
by memphiscub on May 15, 2008 5:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
don't forget, Edmonds will save us
2008 Cubs: Why Beat A Team in Regulation, when you can beat them in extras?
by Chanman25 on May 15, 2008 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Winning 98 OK by you?
Because if we hold this pace, that’s what the end of the regular season will look like.
by MN exile on May 15, 2008 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Get to the Playoffs, Then Win 11 in Postseason
98 wins would be enough to get to the playoffs. Then, get those 11 wins in postseason play. I don’t want to concern myself with horror stories of the past in the playoffs, either.
by memphiscub on May 15, 2008 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stoney on the Score
I’ve never listened to any of the Chicago sports talk shows before, but because of the Edmonds signing and I had a free coupla hours before the game, I called up the Score’s internet feed to hear what they were saying about it (WGN had some old chick on, not talking about baseball). I heard a Steve Stone interview in which he said that he expects the Cubs to win the division by a minimum of 8 games, but more likely in the double digits.
My reaction was “Wow….Really?” To any of the radio fans here… has a prediction from Stoney, or anybody else somewhat knowledgeable, commonplace up there – or is this the largest games lead guess that’s been put out there.
I personally think it’s gonna be decided in the last week again, but maybe I’m just being naive about how the competition in this division compares to this team.
by MillsChC on May 15, 2008 5:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Phil Rogers of the Trib ....
predicted that the Cubs would win the division by 7 games over the Brewers. i haven’t seen any prediction in double digits.
"My body is a temple.... a temple of doom." -source unknown
by Basman on May 15, 2008 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just Win, Baby
Win the division by any margin. Then, get those 11 magical wins in the playoffs. The Cardinals won 100 in ‘05 and didn’t even make the WS. In ‘06, the Cards only won 83 and won the WS. Go figure!
by memphiscub on May 15, 2008 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once the Brewers lost Gallardo
and Dusty put Corey atop the Reds’ lineup, it seemed to me like the Cubs were likely to run away with things. The Astros have no pitching. The Cardinals are pretenders. The Central pennant looks like it won’t be hard to get. Now, if Manny Parra starts pitching regularly like he did in his last outing, the Brewers could still mount a threat.
Of course, projections are just on paper. We’ve still got to play the games.
by DGU on May 15, 2008 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maddux
I’m not predicting anything, and frankly, if Maddux pitches like he did today (his shortest outing of the year), maybe the Cubs would have second thoughts about bringing him back. Sentimentally, sure, it’d be great. But Jim Hendry & Co., if they are even considering this, would have to first decide if he’s got enough left in the tank.
Maybe not as a pitcher, true. I’d like to think he’d make a very good replacement for Larry Rothschild as a pitching coach, though. I don’t think there’s anyone in baseball with a better mental approach to pitching, in addition to the practical, of course…
by MN exile on May 15, 2008 5:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Not only are we two up on the Cards
But we are three up in the loss column. I really think we are seeing the beginning of a fade for that team. I still think they will finish under .500 and probably behind the Brewers and Astros.
As for the Astros, what the heck is up with them this month? They are on a major, and entirely unexpected, tear right now.
by SuperContext on May 15, 2008 5:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Berkman is killing it since the beginning of May....
Hopefully the Cubs can keep him in check and cool that team off.
"My body is a temple.... a temple of doom." -source unknown
by Basman on May 15, 2008 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This makes the upcoming series in Houston suddenly a lot more important.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 15, 2008 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just don't see Houston sticking around
With that pitching staff
by Shanghai Badger on May 15, 2008 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't either.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 15, 2008 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Houston is a paper tiger
Their pitching is very dubious. Plus I’m comforted by the fact that GM Ed Wade is a complete moron and has already stripped their farm system bare for an ex-roid boy and a CFer who will never hit major league pitching (Michael Bourn).
Don’t worry about the Astros.
Mr. Towers, tear down this wall (er, I mean give us back Greg Maddux) !
by MDBNIU on May 15, 2008 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I (gulp) actually agree with you about Houston's pitching...
but no so much about Bourn…he can rake a little.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 15, 2008 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you see the guy standing on the back concourse
throw a fishing pole with a net attached to it and get it out of the cove, before anybody in a boat could get it. Never seen that before… got a good laugh out of that.
by MillsChC on May 15, 2008 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about,
Todd Zielle? Ray King, LaTroy Hawkins?! Were you there the night he came back with SF? I was. The fans gave it to him more than any other player I have ever seen live goin’ back to 1968. That was over-the-top hate.
by The E-Man on May 15, 2008 5:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Scott Rolen.
The worst I ever heard it was on a Cards vs. Phillies Saturday game on Fox when Rolen went back as a Cardinal for the first time. The announcers were even in awe. The Vet was FILLED with boo’s. Philly fans are rough.
by bikemonkey on May 15, 2008 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From Ms. Muskrat
for you Edmonds bashers,
"A career .286 hitter, he was asked how much he had left in the tank.“I’ve got a lot left,” he said. “I feel my body’s in as good shape as it’s been in six, seven years. I just have to get my swing back and get going.”
Yeah, right Jim. We’ll see…
by The E-Man on May 15, 2008 6:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's like when you fill out a NCAA Bracket......
and someone tells you there is no chance in hell that Kansas could beat Memphis….
Will Edmonds be good? Maybe. Will he suck? Maybe. One thing is for sure. I HATED him a few years ago when he played for the Cardinals. But he doesn’t play for the Cardinals anymore, he is a CUB. He is one of us.
So go ahead and tell everyone how right you all were who have hated him, and how leaving 7 on base and going 1 for 4 is the WORST PERFORMANCE EVER. Nevermind him being a pitch away from an RBI in his first at bat as a Cubbie.
The guy has 8 gold gloves and is a .286 career hitter.
Relax
by Sugarloaf on May 15, 2008 6:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If you expect gold glove quality and a .286 average...
I’d say you’re delusional. Otherwise, I don’t see the relevance of bringing up the 8 gold gloves and .286 career average. He hasn’t been gold glove quality or a .286 hitter in at least 3 years.
That said, I’ll hope he does well. I’m not happy that we got him because I think he’s done. But, we did get him. So hopefully he’ll prove me wrong.
I agree it’s too early to make conclusions. But to say “relax” when discussing a guy who’s been on a huge decline and is in the midst of a sub .500 OPS season is a little to head-in-the-sand for me.
by SouthernCub on May 15, 2008 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alright Alright
get rid of the relax, and I understand why some are mad.
It being to early to make a conclusion is the main point I was trying to get across. He has been on the decline.
by Sugarloaf on May 15, 2008 6:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Then we are in agreement...
It’s definitely too early to conclude about him one way or the other.
by SouthernCub on May 15, 2008 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great game at the Friendly Confines
Ryan Dempster is en fuego. He’s going to get one of those $40 million plus contracts from somebody next winter.
I cheered Jim Edmonds. There was a combo of boos and cheers. I think once the butterflies settle and he gets his sea legs in a Cubbie uniform everything will be hunky dory. And sure enough, a couple 20 something females sitting near our section couldn’t get over how “hot” Edmonds looks in a Cub uniform. The guy who has a concession on name jerseys is about to make a crapload of dough on “Edmonds” ones.
Good game. Pains me to see Maddux pitching for the opposition.
Mr. Towers, tear down this wall (er, I mean give us back Greg Maddux) !
by MDBNIU on May 15, 2008 6:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Again with the irrelevant "hot Edmonds" thing...
who cares whether women think he’s hot? Will his hotness make the Cubs a better team?
by SouthernCub on May 15, 2008 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He gets his timing in line and he will help this club
That much I’m convinced. A tag team of Reed Johnson and Edmonds in CF is going to be a good thing for this club.
Mr. Towers, tear down this wall (er, I mean give us back Greg Maddux) !
by MDBNIU on May 15, 2008 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I only had the time today to photoshop a WWF picture of that....
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 15, 2008 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You were convinced that
Cesar Izturis was going to be the savior of this team and that Daryle Ward was a fat tub of goo and a horrible signing. Pardon me if I don’t believe a word you say.
by sue369 on May 15, 2008 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why bring up facts?
MDBNIU has long since forgotten those errors.
by SouthernCub on May 15, 2008 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It seems that at best
Edmonds will put up an .800 OPS against righties, and play average defense. At absolute best. I don’t really know the point… just throwing it out there, I guess.
by AceCubbie on May 15, 2008 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you left out the gigantic
IF.
IF he gets his timing in line.
IF he doesn’t get injured.
IF he can move fast enough to get those outs Pie makes look easy.
Bah. Waste of time.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 15, 2008 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
pete's sake.
hunky dory? This guy is going to go 1-4 a LOT. And he left SEVEN MEN ON BASE. Out of 17. That’s over 40%.
For the love of mike, move him DOWN in the order. Do NOT let this guy hit behind Soto.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 15, 2008 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fired up!
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
by wild bill on May 15, 2008 6:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Face it folks
Edmonds is a CUB. We all will be rooting and hoping he provides the team and us with solid play. Like it or not, debate it all you want. Edmonds is a CUB. Live with it and take it all in. He might become a part of a magical season that we all hope for.
Fans, cut him some slack. Give him a chance.
Having said that, personally I don’t think this will work. But than again, anything I say just the opposite happens. It’s a gift.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
by wild bill on May 15, 2008 6:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
like
people do with Soriano?
Except this time there’s an actual reason to do so?
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 15, 2008 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fans take
a snap shot of a season. Often emotions take over. Many of us do not look at the big picture.
Let me say that I do not agree with the signing of Edmonds. Not so much it is Edmonds, but the demotion of Pie. I liked him where he was at. Coming in late innings. I like watching Pie play center. There is a comfort level with him there.
I was hoping he would stick and learn at the ML level. The role he was in was what I thought a good fit for this team. His speed and defense provided a void that Edmonds now does not provide.
I can not control the Cubs, but I can still root for Edmonds to fulfill a need that Hendry and Pinella believe they need for this team.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
by wild bill on May 15, 2008 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want Edmonds to produce.
But I recognize how futile a want that is.
1-4. SEVEN men left on base—out of 17 by the entire team. He’s old. He’s slow.
I want him to produce. But I don’t expect him to.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 15, 2008 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
with you. He comes up with the bases loaded. I am thinking, man is this a great chance to come through. Whif!
In my reply to your comment, I think I provide a good thought as to this signing. I wonder what is the big brass thinking on this one?
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
by wild bill on May 15, 2008 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The question real
soon will become this. How long do the Cubs run with him? If he is around for 100 AB’s.
What if he is like 18-100 hitting .180?
Transversley, what if in his first 100 AB’s he hits .280 and is somewhat productive?
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
by wild bill on May 15, 2008 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
then I'll print this thread out
and eat it.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 15, 2008 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
bleah
zesty Italian, please.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 15, 2008 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maddux, Edmonds, and Dykstra
Just wanted to comment on a couple of points. Although it pains me to say it, I hope the Cubs pass on Maddux should he become available later this year. He’s good for only five or six innings per start, and now that the umpires don’t give him strikes on pitches that are four inches outside the way they did when he was with Atlanta, he almost always has a couple of innings per start that really hurt him.
In regard to what Al said about Edmonds and Lenny Dykstra, “Having Edmonds is like what it would have been to get Lenny Dykstra, long after he was done.” I have to say that while I defer to no one in my animosity toward Edmonds, I would take three of him over Dykstra any day. Thanks for reminding me that things could have been a whole lot worse!
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on May 15, 2008 7:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
gosh
I love this site!
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
by wild bill on May 15, 2008 7:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Go figure..........
Fans cheer Maddux, who is trying to beat us, and boo Edmonds,who is trying to help us win….. ahhhhhh, really? C’mon Edmonds is now a blue collar Cub and I’m with him 100%. Booing the past doesn’t do anything…........ Cub fans should show our class…...!!!!
by James031 on May 15, 2008 7:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Why I will Boo...
I will boo Jim Edmonds because I don’t like him as a baseball player. I don’t know him personally, so I can’t comment on that. But I don’t like his hot dog attitude, I don’t like how he carries himself, I don’t like some of the things he has done and said in the past. Growing up in Southern California, I have watched a lot of him over the years.
And I don’t want him on my favorite team. So I will boo him. The same way I would boo if Barry Bonds had become a Cub. The same way I boo Steve Garvey, who was a total fraud with the Dodgers. I will boo to express my displeasure with the decision to have him in pinstripes. And if the Cubs win it all with him and he knocks in the winning run, I will be happy for the organization and for my fellow fans, and indifferent towards the individual.
In the middle of a good time, Truth gave me her icy kiss. Look around, you must be joking. All that way, all that way for this -Oysterband
by Ross on May 15, 2008 8:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Garvey
If he had ever become a Cub, I believe he would have been the most hated…
"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball"
by Bump Bailey on May 15, 2008 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Dykstra would've given him a run for his money.
And in his case, I think the feeling would’ve been mutual.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on May 15, 2008 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed on those two.
Edmonds is in that category. Frankly, I think he’ll suck and be dumped in a couple of weeks.
If I’m wrong, then it means he’s done well and the Cubs are probably winning, and like Ross, I’ll be happy.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 16, 2008 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Post-victory dance:
Captain Tightpants is apparently Captain Cookiebaking as well. I’d kill for a picture of Farnsworth in an apron. I bet he makes some excellent rum rolls. And whiskey cake.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on May 15, 2008 8:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I was not on board on the Edmonds move
But he is here, wearing the Blue and I got to root for the guy. I hope he does well. How can we boo the guy? This is all about wins, period. This team does have the makings of being really good. The Cubs get square in the 4th and 5th spots in the rotation, they could become better than good.
Lets have a great weekend.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on May 15, 2008 8:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
too much negativity lately over a move that is low risk medium reward and designed to make the club better. especially for a 25-16 team. everyone needs to chill out and root for a winning weekend
by PrincetonCubs on May 15, 2008 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am hoping that....
when we get to Chicago and go to the Cubs – Pirates game Aug 3 (do we play anyone except the Pirates?) that Felix in back and in CF. I personally think Edmunds will be gone by then. He is done. I think that Felix in a straight platoon with Johnson IS OUR BEST shot at a championship. Pie’s defense is invaluable, as he saves runs with it. This signing was horrible, nothing against Edmunds…..Reference Willie Mays with the Mets…it was a sad ending to a great career, as he was toast when he got to the Mets. Felix should be our CF of the now and future. Let him play, there is nothing to prove in Iowa.
by crazymountain on May 15, 2008 9:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Edmonds "quote" etc
Alas I must have miscommunicated what I overheard the fan say about Edmonds
to Al. What the guy actually said was ” I can’t believe I am rooting for Jim Edmonds.
It is weird,, really weird” He said this with real astonishment. This was during the at bat
that Edmonds struck out on 3 pitches with the bases loaded and one out. Personally I see no reason to hold him to higher standard than the rest of the club which has regularly left runners standed with a runner on third and less than two out.
I have said this in several posts but againt want to emphasize that having watched
the vast majority of Edmonds playing time with the Padres this year my problem is
not his hitting as bad as that has been. Picking up crappy hitting veterans who were
once really good and hoping they recapture their ” Youth” is something lots of teams do
and the Cubs more than most. The problem is his fielding is horrible. Today he got
a few balls that stayed in the air a LONG time so you have no way of envisioning what
he is really like. I had absolutely no opinion or interest of Edmonds until this
year when he became a Padre. I did not dislike him anymore than anyone else when
they were in a Cardinal uniform and had never heard he was allegedly bad in the club house. I only care that he can’t field and that it will soon cost us a game and it will become multiple games if we stick with him too long.
Wait and see
by Doggie Stalker on May 15, 2008 9:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I would not be surprised if Maddux threw that ball off the bricks intentionally
I mean think about it, if you know you can get the ricochet there’s not much to lose. What a saavy pitcher! He could probably get that bounce 8 times out of 10, too.
by Jerry Mumphrey on May 15, 2008 9:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Doubt it...
...because even he could not know the catcher was going to deflect that ball with his glove and what effect that would have on the ball.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In The "Modern" era of baseball
And many teams are guilty of this - prospects are rushed to the majors way before they are ready. Regarding the many Cubs prospects previously listed who did not make it - who’s to say more time in AAA might not have helped them? Only the finest prospects seem “MLB Ready” immediately - G. Soto comes to mind, and, in the past - Mark Grace might be another. (I’m not considering pitchers, but you could make a case for this too.)
Back in the ‘old’ days, a player might stay in the high minors for YEARS. One player that comes to mind is classic Dodgers shortstop Maury Wills. He spent (and please, I’m going from memory here) 8 to 9 years in the minors, coming to MLB @ 27/28. He had a great career. There are others like this, if you wanted to research this.
Today’s prospects, since many have signed huge bonuses or whatever - are rushed to the bigs, sometimes immediately to get that return on an investment. In many cases, the prospects are overhyped. For those of my age - we rarely heard about what was going on in the minors when we were kids—the only outlet was “The Sporting News” that covered the minors. We had no idea. Now, (and Josh, your reports are great) even
we scour the bushes to find out what Micah Hoffpaur did tonight.
There were no ‘ratings’ of minor league systems. Now, every little at bat of some guy in Syracuse or Tacoma or Iowa or Peoria is microscopically analyzed. The pressure is on to produce, quickly.
And then, there are the prospects that believe their own hype. (That means YOU, Corey.) Put all of this together, and here we are, worried about a kid who is now given THREE weeks to get his act together.
Failure, it seems—is almost inevitable.
And, I don’t know how this can change. It’s a different game, a different era.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 15, 2008 10:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent point...
...and was supported by Piniella’s comment the other day regarding the fact that he spent 6 years in the minor leagues, and he was ready to play at the ML level because of it.
There is no question that Piniella sees the raw talent Pie has, but he also sees how rough around the edges he is in regards to Lou’s specialty – hitting.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
it’s a bad point. Piniella’s experience was not normal.
It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.
by Josh77 on May 16, 2008 3:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn't?
I would argue in those days it was more common, if not “normal”.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 16, 2008 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are wrong...
...on that one.
In Piniella’s day, it was common to be seasoned for much longer periods at the minor league level. Once those guys got to the bigs, it was usually for good, as opposed to today when you see guys going up and down because they are pushed along because of large investments.
Whether you like it or not, Lou believes in making a player earn their playing time. They do that by either producing when they are given opportunities and or having a good track record of producing in the past (and even those guys will get benched after a period of time).
After Baker, I would think most would welcome this philosophy as creating higher expectations for each player and the team. Trust me, it’s in the back of the players minds, when they play for Lou.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 16, 2008 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some interesting thoughts - here are a few thoughts in response:
“Only the finest prospects seem ‘MLB Ready’ immediately.”
I don’t think being MLB Ready is connected to the overall quality of a prospect. A-Rod wasn’t “MLB Ready” in the sense that he hit immediately when he came up; neither was Sandberg. Plenty of quality prospects look horrid for their first month or two or three, before they get it going.
I think one of the important things to remember about hitting in baseball is that even the best hitters can go through abominable stretches for a loooong time. Right now, David Ortiz, poster boy for the 2008 All-Star game, is hitting .234/.335/.418. After the first month of baseball, he was hitting .184/.294/.350, with a 20% K rate (rounded). If that’s all you had seen of Ortiz, people would be screaming about altering his swing and him needing to cut down on his strikeouts.
We know David Ortiz can hit and will hit because we’ve seen his full ML career. There are bound to be prospects who come up and fail their first month up, just because that’s the way hitting is in baseball.
Then there are bound to be prospects who come up and are over-excited about living the dream.
There are bound to be prospects who come up and get nervous about being seen before millions of people.
And, of course, there are prospects who are just over-matched and were never going to make it.
And, of course, there are prospects who were going to make it, but their coaches panic over the slump and try to remake the prospect and end up making things worse.
I don’t have the skills to tell which prospect is which. All I know is that for most of us it takes a lot of time to see which prospects are baseball players and which are minor league trivia questions.
by DGU on May 15, 2008 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The facts don't support
the notion that players are getting “rushed through the minors.” In fact, it’s exactly the opposite. The evidence says that players spend more time in the minors than they used to.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/sports/baseball/04score.html
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=391
For every Maury Wills that you cite, I can mention Robin Yount, who was starting in the majors at age 18. Jim Palmer at 19. Mickey Mantle at 20. Ron Santo was 20. Willie McCovey at age 21. Heck, you don’t want Hall of Famers? Tony Canigliaro was a regular in the majors at 19. Boog Powell at 20. Ken Hubbs was 20 when he was Rookie of the Year in 1962—and he was up for a cup of coffee the year before that.
Maury Wills spent all that time in the minors not because of some need to “pay his dues” but because he wasn’t very good. His only real offensive weapon was speed, which in the 1950s in Ebbets Field wasn’t very valuable.
So your point that players are “rushed” today is just another myth that every generation repeats and belongs to the old coots sitting on the porch.
It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.
by Josh77 on May 16, 2008 3:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We've seen the last of Felix Pie at Wrigley
Sure, he might get called up if a couple outfielders go on the DL. And he probably gets called up no matter what this September. But other than that? Felix Pie is done in a Cub uniform. I look for him to get moved. Might not happen until this winter, but it will happen.
Mr. Towers, tear down this wall (er, I mean give us back Greg Maddux) !
by MDBNIU on May 15, 2008 10:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, MDBNIU
I’m glad you said that because it means that Felix will be a superstar with the Cubs…..
by crazymountain on May 15, 2008 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
don’t give up on Pie. He does have holes in his swing, and I don’t think he’s ready to be getting alot of playing time in the big leagues. But this guy still has a ton of talent, and just needs to work on some things and focus on his strike zone. Cedeno looks like he made the adjustment, why can’t Pie?
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dempster
I know there’s not much chance of this happening, but wouldn’t it be great if Dempster became the number 2 most of us keep pining for.
by inukjim on May 15, 2008 10:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And just think...
last year we called him number 2 all the time. Irony.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 15, 2008 11:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the Dodgers had Clemente
who signed as a “bonus baby” as the term was. Back then, if you gave a bonus to sign a player, you had to keep him on the roster. Koufax was also a bonus baby. They tried to hide Roberto in the low minors, the Pirates saw this and claimed him. So, because Clemente could not replace Furillo in RF, the Dodgers lost him. The Pirates “rushed” Roberto to the Bigs….nuff said….
by crazymountain on May 15, 2008 10:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Comparing Pie's situation...
...with Clemente’s is a bit of a reach. Clemente had talent and unbelievable hands as a hitter. You could lock that guy in a closet for a week, and he would come out and still hit line drives all over the place.
Some guys need more work than others, and Pie needs more work.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't comparing Felix to Roberto....
I was just commenting on the Wills comment. Maury (I know him, went to school with Bump) was a talented man who didn’t give up. And, thank God he didn’t. The sport would be less without him.
by crazymountain on May 15, 2008 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't think you were comparing
...but, as I said the best of the best can break through immediately. Others need more time. Now, if a player doesn’t make it immediately, he’s branded “AAAA” and can never overcome the label, which can be unfair. This didn’t happen in the past. Teams gave players time to develop.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 15, 2008 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not quite
Clemente was on the roster for AAA Montreal (not the “low minors”) they just refused to put him into games. If he played well, he got benched. If he struck out, they’d give him a start.
The Pirates only knew about him because they hired Branch Rickey, and one of his former scouts with the Dodgers told him about him. The Pirates of that era couldn’t find snow at the South Pole.
But yeah, there’s another guy up in the majors playing regularly at 20 with hardly a minor league game at all.
I remember in the 1970s guys like Dave Winfield and Bob Horner just skipping the minor leagues altogether. When was the last time that happened? Jim Abbott?
It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.
by Josh77 on May 16, 2008 3:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In regard to an earlier comment
Maddux ‘cheered” and Edmonds ‘booed….’ (There was no TV for SD County and the Padres EI blackout area today, so it was radio only for us) both Ted Leitner and Andy Masur were chuckling over that action….probably only Masur understood the dynamics involved….
And, I doubt if we’ve seen the last of Pie at Wrigley. He’ll be back. Whether or not he’ll succeed, I can’t tell you. But he’ll be back.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 15, 2008 10:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree on Pie...
...he wil be back this year, but I am up in the air whether he will ever be a solid major league hitter.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's going to happen is...
....that Felix Pie probably hits very well against Triple A pitching once again. The most critical thing though is how his hitting approach advances and whether he develops consistency and competency in shortening up his swing.
In my view Pie will never hit major league pitching. Not even enough to serve in a utility outfield role. He is very reminiscent of fellow Domincans Alex Escobar and Ruben Mateo….tools and athleticism up the wazoo but an ultimate dud.
Mr. Towers, tear down this wall (er, I mean give us back Greg Maddux) !
by MDBNIU on May 15, 2008 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's go to another player
Who languished with many teams, MLB and the minors. This player, a scrappy infielder was a fan favorite in his cities. Usually, he hit about .200. He’s older now, and is back in MLB after spending even more time in the minors. He has seemingly improved in all phases of his game. He appears to now really BELONG in MLB. Perhaps more work, more time, and desire made him a better player than he was 6-7 years ago.
He was just through Chicago. Who am I referring to?
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 15, 2008 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Augie Ojeda
Mr. Towers, tear down this wall (er, I mean give us back Greg Maddux) !
by MDBNIU on May 15, 2008 11:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
Seems those two years away from MLB, then coming to AZ as an non-roster free agent changed his career. I thought last year was a fluke—but the guy’s still bringing it.
Maybe he just needed more time & work away from the Show.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 15, 2008 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holy apples and oranges.
Augie Ojeda??
Felix Pie has more talent in his twisted testes than Augie Ojeda has in his entire body. Please, let’s compare apples to apples. Curtis Granderson, IMO, is probably the best comparison for Pie. Same skill set, roughly the same minor elague numbers (yes, cubfan25, we know Granderson walked more, so you can refrain from selectively endpointing us to death), and same type of swing.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on May 16, 2008 7:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't get hung up on physical skills...
...because there are plenty of those guys who fail because they don’t have the right ingrediants mentally to make their body do the right things often enouph.
This is the wild card for all prospects who have yet to have success at the ML level – do they have the mental capacity to make the physical changes that will get the improvement they need?
No one knows the answer to this question, because you can’t scout for it. If you could crawl inside a guys head and look at the wiring, you may know who has a better chance for the light bulb to go on, but they just can’t do it.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 16, 2008 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that validates what I said
In any era, the best can make it to MLB quickly. But, some players need more time, which doesn’t seem to be allowed anymore.
“Bonus Baby” Rick Monday was another who came to MLB immediately from ASU to the A’s.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 15, 2008 10:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Who isn't
getting more time? Ryan Theriot? Mike Fontenot? Rich Hill? (All had five minor league seasons or more)
Heck, Adrian Gonzalez had over five years in the minors and he was the first pick in the 2000 draft. Alex Rios spent five seasons in the minors. Ryan Doumit had six. Ryan Ludwick had some cups of coffee, but he had 8 minor league seasons. (I’m just going through the 1999 and 2000 drafts)
The problem is you’re defining anyone who succeed at a young age as an exceptional talent and anyone who fails as rushed. You start with your conclusion and then you make your judgments to support it.
It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.
by Josh77 on May 16, 2008 3:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
This whole “Pie needs more time” argument is founded on just so much circular logic.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on May 16, 2008 7:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edmonds
If people want to boo the guy after one game, then so be it. I’m fairly confident the booing will be a temporary phenomenon. Edmonds surely had the butterflies and was anxious today…new club, playing for the arch rival of the Cardinals, playing against the team that just whacked him. Give Edmonds a couple games to get his timing down and everything will be fine.
Mr. Towers, tear down this wall (er, I mean give us back Greg Maddux) !
by MDBNIU on May 15, 2008 10:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
if only
you had been as accommodating for Alfonso Soriano or Felix Pie…
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 16, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watching Edmonds patrol Petco's CF
I’d be hard-pressed to assert that he’s “going to be fine.” He looked terrible, in all phases of the game. I’ve mentioned that in previous posts.
However, Edmonds is now one of ours. I hope he turns it around, but my guess is that he won’t. There is no reason to boo the guy, though. He’s in blue, not red.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 15, 2008 10:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Edmonds
....was coming off a calf injury. For the moment at least I will believe his statement of today that he now feels as healthy and fit as he has in 6 years.
San Diego has become the graveyard of baseball. It cracks me up how they are loaded with these “baseball intellectuals” in Sandy Alderson, Paul DePodesta and Grady Fuson looking over the shoulder of Kevin Towers, yet their fallback strategy is to call up Jody Friggin Gerut. And then to have the gall to say that the addition of Gerut places pressure on the payroll. That franchise is an unmitigated disaster.
Mr. Towers, tear down this wall (er, I mean give us back Greg Maddux) !
by MDBNIU on May 15, 2008 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was a great friggin' quote from Alderson
...and nobody in the media here called him on how stupid he sounded.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 15, 2008 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand your first paragraph
The reason that he was sucking in San Diego was because of a calf injury. Wouldn’t that injury still effect him now? I mean its only been 10 days since he was released…
2008 Cubs: Why Beat A Team in Regulation, when you can beat them in extras?
by Chanman25 on May 16, 2008 6:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The calf injury happened in spring training...
... two months ago. I’m not expecting Edmonds to be good, but I would expect that a two-month-old injury would probably be improving by now.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 16, 2008 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
unless it's not, because
he’s 37 years old. I sprained an ankle six years ago, it’s still not back up to snuff.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 16, 2008 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, he won't
turn things around. He does, however, have a much smaller CF here.
by crazymountain on May 15, 2008 10:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Keep in mind
that many have said including Maddux that his legs weren’t fully healthy most of April. He’s not the defender he once was, but I don’t think he will be a bad defender especially not in Wrigley.
by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was a poor defender last season.
What has he done since then to get better? Spent most of the spring injured? Yeah, that really helps a guy recover his outfield range.
by cwyers on May 15, 2008 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cub now he is, a viable MLB CF he isn't...
Felix is an MLB CF right now…..
by crazymountain on May 15, 2008 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
While watching Edmonds in today's game, two things made me laugh
1) He missed the first warm-up toss thrown his way from Dome before the game. I laughed, hoping it wasn’t an omen of things to come.
2) His first fielding attempt was on a fly ball to center. He took a few steps back almost immediately, then realized the wind was going to hold it up so he came running back in and camped under it. I laughed because I was half-expecting him to time his run back so he’d have to make a diving catch at the end. Some habits die hard…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on May 15, 2008 11:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Sigh...
Jim Edmonds was a premier outfielder for many years. It’s clear that his defensive skills have eroded, but I think some of you are getting a carried away. You make it sound as if he is Daryl Ward out there.
I reserve judgment on Edmonds’ defense until I see him play for awhile. I have a hard time believing that as great as a center fielder as he once was that he is now a liability out there. I’ll let my eyes be the judge over the next couple weeks and report back my view.
Mr. Towers, tear down this wall (er, I mean give us back Greg Maddux) !
by MDBNIU on May 15, 2008 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And we are all anxiously awaiting your scouting report, MDBNIU
by crazymountain on May 15, 2008 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny how you felt the need to post that.
Worthless.
"Anything under 5 pitches is a bad at-bat."
by Fukumania on May 16, 2008 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How long did you give Felix before you determined he'd be better off working in a car wash?
Just so we all know how long we have until you judge Edmonds.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 15, 2008 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather have
Ward out there.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 16, 2008 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, before I go
Bud Black really screwed over Glendon Rusch. (As you probably know, Rusch was cut by the Pads last week and refused an outright to AAA Portland)
Black didn’t pitch the guy the first 2 weeks of the season. Then, he gets tagged his first time out. Then, he’s buried. Rusch didn’t have a chance. If I’m him - I’d contact the Cubs and offer to go to Iowa. Pitching regularly - he’ll help somebody.
Rusch pitched well in AZ, and then was the forgotten man in the Padres bullpen. You’d almost think Black didn’t want him there.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 15, 2008 11:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm beggining to think Bud Black and Ned Yost are the same manager.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 15, 2008 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny it was mentioned.....
I just added Augie to a reserve spot on my All-Time Cub Killer Team….... Just saying…
by James031 on May 15, 2008 11:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Chris Kahrl over at Baseball Prospectus weighs in on the Edmonds-Pie swap
and it’s a thorough-going skewering. Here’s a paragraph out of what you’ll otherwise need a subscription to read.
Regardless, it’s a bit silly to get worked up over how Pie "failed," because he didn’t. Failure might be the operative term, but it was a failure by management—by Jim Hendry, by Lou Piniella, by the organization, and perhaps by a few thousand squealing teens worked up over Reed Johnson’s socks and soul patch—but not by Pie. How could he fail? He got consecutive starts in only two little globs on the young season: a four-game stretch to open the year, and a three-game stretch in Cincinnati from May 5th through 7th. In both instances, he only went hitless in the last game of those stretches, and both times, that oh-fer was rewarded with multiple games and days out of the starting lineup. Yeah, that’s a great way to get the kid going. Absolutely brilliant.
by DGU on May 15, 2008 11:35 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Great statement there....I wholeheartedly agree with that analysis...
by crazymountain on May 15, 2008 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are some more great lines in the whole article
but I don’t want to quote too much of something people are supposed to pay to read.
by DGU on May 15, 2008 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since you already paid for it.....
I see no harm in sharing it with us..:)
"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball"
by Bump Bailey on May 16, 2008 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cubs only failed Pie
by calling him up to the major leagues and putting him in the postion he was in before he’s ready. I guess Chris Karl didn’t see much of Pie long swing in the major leagues or how many bad pitches he chases out of the zone. I agree that Pie didn’t have a chance to play consistently in the major leagues, but I don’t think he would hit with the way his swing is now and believe Lou feels the same way. Thats why I almost wish Lou just let him play everyday, so these type of comments would stop. If people saw him struggle everyday, they would be like well he should give him more time or whatever but they couldn’t bash him for not trying him.
I wouldn’t get too excited about BA and their articles on roster decisions, their paid to value young players and praise them. You will never see them say a guys not ready if he hits well in Triple A , or say a veteran player is better right now. So their always going to have a little bias in these type of situations IMO.
by cubsfan25 on May 16, 2008 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats just my opinion
on stuff I have read of theirs in pasing, I’m sure many would disagree.
by cubsfan25 on May 16, 2008 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Christina Kahrl doesn't write for Baseball America.
She writes for Baseball Prospectus. They’re entirely different publications. DGU even said Baseball Prospectus.
by cwyers on May 16, 2008 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you're right about BA biases.
I can’t remember how many times I’ve read the word “blocked prospect.”
by DGU on May 16, 2008 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LSA
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 16, 2008 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goose Gossage
I think Goose Gossage might have fallen into the territory Al was speaking of.
Goose was hated by pretty much everybody in Cubdom before he came in 1988. And then he stunk in 88. BADLY.
"You're fired." - Dallas Green to Billy Connors while Billy was staying in the hospital.
by jdoolsiu on May 15, 2008 11:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I forgot about him.
Thankfully. Until now. But you’re right.
Gossage doesn’t quite come into the category of a Garvey or a Dykstra, because he was a closer who didn’t face the Cubs every day when they played the teams he was on. But yes, he was hated, and that ‘88 season was pathetic.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 16, 2008 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was at the game, and it was a mixed reaction for Edmonds. Why not give the guy a shot? If he helps the team win then why boo??? Look at all you homers, i bet you were saying the same thing when Sandberg struggled his rookie year.
by zack54attack on May 16, 2008 1:05 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Who's up for Pitt today?
I know Linc threw yesterday…
"Anything under 5 pitches is a bad at-bat."
by Fukumania on May 16, 2008 8:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Gorzelanny
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on May 16, 2008 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh boy.
And Sean is starting for us? Ohh boy.
"Anything under 5 pitches is a bad at-bat."
by Fukumania on May 16, 2008 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Easy.
Lets not “Estes-ize” Gorzelanny and set the lads up for a shutout. I’m hopeful the Cubs can plate a few runs and Sean can perform well his second time out. I’ll leave it at that.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on May 16, 2008 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was an "I'm nervous" Oh boy.
lol
"Anything under 5 pitches is a bad at-bat."
by Fukumania on May 16, 2008 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm very late to the party
But Sean has stepped up nicely.
by AceCubbie on May 19, 2008 7:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just thought I'd note...
I went to the game yesterday. Dempster really did look great, and though there wasn’t much power to be seen with the wind blowing in, the Cubs did a great job hitting the ball. It was the second game I have been to this season. I’ve never been to more than one in a season. And since they won, I have still never been to a Cubs game where they’ve lost. I should probably find more tickets.
by rambler19 on May 16, 2008 8:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Jessica...
It was really nice to see her Thursday night on her journey to see who was sitting in her seats. My question, however, is – Did she ever look up to watch Maddux pitch at all or did she just keep her head buried in a newspaper?
Kasey
See the Cubs 2008 schedule (with TV schedule & game-by-game results) at http://ignarski.tripod.com/sched2008.html
by kaseyi on May 16, 2008 8:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Believe it or not, she actually did watch.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 16, 2008 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it matters any
My mom and little sister had her tickets yesterday.
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry
by Jayo525 on May 16, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I watched EVERY pitch
I would get nervous sometimes ( ok like that first home start I saw Vs the Mets in 06) when he pitchedfor the Cubs and look at the paper but no problem yesterday ( I even snuck over to watch his bullpensession) When he pitched good like getting out of jams in the first 4 innings I would root for him because it is Maddux and we could get to the Padre bullpen, when things fell apart in the 5th I cheeredlustily for the Cubs because I am a Cub fan first, last and always.My main improvement was being able to watch Wood get the last batter out. Couldn’t do thaton Wed.Jay I hope Mom enjoyed the game despite the cold.
by Doggie Stalker on May 16, 2008 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey
Jessica:
I can’t find your card. Can you email me at drewnmt AT yahoo DOT com?
Drew
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 16, 2008 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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