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We're Gonna Cheer, And Boo, And Raise A Hullabaloo, At The Ballgame Today

When Jessica returned from one of her many sojourns through Wrigley Field, she reported that she overheard someone saying, "I don't know how I feel about cheering for Jim Edmonds. It's just weird."

That's exactly right. It's just weird, and Edmonds got both booed and cheered today -- a mix of sorts when introduced, and when coming out to the field for the first time; cheers when he singled in the second inning, and then booed when he hit into a double play in the fourth and struck out with the bases loaded in the seventh.

That's what today's 4-0 Cubs win over the Padres was -- many ovations, and some booing, for several different players and situations. (And if you are of "a certain age", you will remember the title of today's post as coming from the song "It's A Beautiful Day For A Ballgame", the song that is heard at the ballpark before each game, and used to be the game intro song on WGN radio.)

Ryan Dempster was the recipient of two loud ovations; first, when he came up to bat in the bottom of the eighth after throwing eight shutout innings and it was clear that Lou was going to let him at least start the ninth. Dempster was outstanding today, scattering those four hits through 8, walking only one and striking out twelve (a new career high for him). When he ran into trouble in the 9th -- Brian Giles, who has his number, having three of the six eventual hits off Dempster, doubled and Kevin Kouzmanoff singled (Larry Rothschild got booed when he quickly ran out to talk to Dempster before Kouzmanoff's AB), Lou didn't hesitate to go to Kerry Wood, as Dempster had thrown 115 pitches (77 strikes, very impressive). Dempster left the field to a huge ovation.

Wood, who looked shaky yesterday, dispatched Khalil Greene and pinch-hitter Josh Bard on strikes, and the game ended with another ovation.

Meanwhile, former Cub Greg Maddux gave up hits left and right to the Cubs over the first four innings -- six of them through four -- but escaped any scoring; once in the fourth on the Edmonds DP ball, but before that after throwing a pitch to the bricks behind the plate with Aramis Ramirez on third. The ball bounced so quickly off the wall back to catcher Luke Carlin that Ramirez, who had broken quickly enough, was still out by about 20 feet. Too bad, because Edmonds, who was batting at the time, singled, and so did Ronny Cedeno, and the Cubs could have had a big inning. Maddux gave up hits to the first four batters in the fifth, and that plus a sac fly chased him.

Whereupon he left to loud cheers that I can only describe as "wistful" -- it was a "thank you for the memories" cheer, and perhaps also a "please come back for one last hurrah if you can" cheer. Maddux, from what I hear, has told friends this may be his last season, and, with the Padres mired in last place, he was asked if he thought this would be his last appearance in Wrigley Field, and he refused to answer.

I'm not predicting anything, and frankly, if Maddux pitches like he did today (his shortest outing of the year), maybe the Cubs would have second thoughts about bringing him back. Sentimentally, sure, it'd be great. But Jim Hendry & Co., if they are even considering this, would have to first decide if he's got enough left in the tank.

Same thing with Jim Edmonds, and I have received emails today from people saying they would never, ever root for him, and I just don't understand that. Did I want him here? No. Do I think he has anything lef? No. But if he does produce, and helps the Cubs win, I'm all for it. We were trying, in the bleachers today, to think of any player, anyone, who was as hated as Edmonds is by Cubs fans, who eventually became a Cub, and really couldn't come up with anyone. Howard Johnson was about as close as we could come; he played half a season for the 1995 Cubs and was just about as done as I think Edmonds is now. But Johnson wasn't really hated by Cubs fans; he was only disliked because he was a Met. Having Edmonds is like what it would have been to get Lenny Dykstra, long after he was done.

Enough about that -- I want to rave about Dempster again; this was his best game as a Cub and probably his best since July 3, 2001, when he threw a four-hit shutout against the Expos in Montreal, when still a Florida Marlin. And he only struck out two that day. It's too bad he didn't finish... the complete game has really become a thing of the past. There have been only six CG thrown in the National League so far this year, and only two CG shutouts -- one by Tim Hudson, one by Ben Sheets.

Kudos also today to Ronny Cedeno, who had two hits, drew a walk and again had good AB every time up. Please, Lou: more playing time for Ronny. And, also to Derrek Lee, who had two hits and two RBI and looked better at the plate than he has all week.

In addition to Jessica, BCB reader Tex (who doesn't post much but is in town visiting from Texas) stopped by to say hi, as did BCB reader calicubfan (Rob, visiting from California; hey -- thanks for the beer!) and we were also joined by former Cubs publications director Jim McArdle, who is spending this summer working on a book about the 2008 season. Hey, Jim: nice talking to you about the Cubs and this site and enjoying a big win.

Big win indeed: six-and-one on this homestand, 17-7 overall at home, and now two games in first place after the Pirates destroyed the Cardinals' bullpen today and won 11-5. Things are good. Onward to beat the Pirates (geez, we're playing them again?) this weekend.

Final note: I wrote about this a couple of weeks ago, but I wanted to call your attention, in case you missed it, to this article in today's Tribune about the "Way Out In Left Field Society", which has lobbied and finally won the right to put an historical marker on the site of West Side Grounds at 912 S. Polk in Chicago, the site where the Cubs won their only two World Series. To which I say, "About time!"

Click here for my scorecard

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1st post

how bout them cubbies!!

It might beeeeee!! It could beeeeeee!! It issssss!! Homerun!! Holyyyyyyy Cow!!!

by cubsluver22 on May 15, 2008 4:57 PM CDT   0 recs

It was...

Len joking asked “Are they Lou-ing or Boo-ing… Now they’re cheering…he’s leaving him in”

by MillsChC on May 15, 2008 5:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That was Lou?

I didn’t think Lou could run that fast.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 15, 2008 5:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think Len was surprised about that too

cause he noted that that wasn’t Lou’s usual method of going to the mound

by MillsChC on May 15, 2008 5:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

BTW Jim's a great guy...

his book is just another reason I hope this season is the one.

by MillsChC on May 15, 2008 5:19 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed about Jim McArdle.

I really enjoy talking baseball with him.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 15, 2008 5:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Dempster only walked one, not two, Al.

"I think Hendry still has a few years to serve on his 'grand larceny' sentence before he can shop in Pittsburgh again" - ballhawk

by NittanyCub on May 15, 2008 5:05 PM CDT   0 recs

You're right.

Don’t know where I got two walks. I’ll fix the post. One walk is even more impressive.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 15, 2008 5:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

well if Edmonds goes 1-4 everyday

then I wouldn’t mind. I don’t really like him but I hope he suceeds. I couldn’t watch today, was he booed?

2008 Cubs: Why Beat A Team in Regulation, when you can beat them in extras?

by Chanman25 on May 15, 2008 5:14 PM CDT   0 recs

Read the post...

... recap of the recap: mixed reaction when announced, cheered when he got the hit, booed when he hit into the DP and struck out.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 15, 2008 5:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

1-4 with a walk would be ok

Just 1-4 ….. Pie [previous lefty CF] could do that.

"Is there anything he can't do?" ~Len Kasper, 4/5/08, on Kosuke Fukudome

by JohnM on May 15, 2008 5:18 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

hate to be negative

but edmonds looked more clueless at the plate then pie. drives me insane to see a player consistantly swing at balls a mile outside.

It might beeeeee!! It could beeeeeee!! It issssss!! Homerun!! Holyyyyyyy Cow!!!

by cubsluver22 on May 15, 2008 5:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

he left SEVEN on base

1-4 with 7 LOB, no thanks

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 5:28 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

LOL

that will happen when you just miss a HR when the wind is blowing in, and face a LH pitcher with the basesload and one out when you should be pinch hit for in that situation. All things considered Edmonds had a good day especially when you factor in he hasn’t seen live pitching in six days. Anybody who wants to bash him about today just has something against the guy.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 5:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

wow... really?

talk about an apologist

the line drive that didnt even make it to the warning track…. would’ve gone out????

and if he can’t be expected to produce after sitting for 6 days then he’s not prepared to be the LH hitting CF for the Chicago Cubs

Oh wait… Edmonds probably won’t get that treatment

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 5:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, it might have gone out.

The wind was blowing in pretty good today. Off the bat that ball looked like it had a chance.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 15, 2008 5:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

fair enough

so we can agree in an alternate universe where the wind wasn’t blowing in Edmonds MIGHT have hit a HR

of course in this alternate universe it also MIGHT have still been caught

regardless i’m not sure how a 1-4 with 7 LOB can be considered a good day all things considering as the poster above would suggest

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 5:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh, it wasn't a good day....

... especially the K with the bases loaded.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 15, 2008 5:55 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Keep telling yourself that

The point is he hit the ball really well in two AB’s, and shouldn’t have been in the spot he was in the 7th inning. Edmonds was brought in to face RH pitching not face a LH pitcher with the bases load and one out. For example if the Cubs put Chad Fox in to save the game in the 9th, and he blows the game. Is it Chads fault for sucking, or Piniella for putting him in a bad postion to be successful? This is pretty much the samething.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 5:55 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Did you watch the game?

Even Len and Bob were talking about it. Stop being dumb and bashing Edmonds because you don’t like him. The point is Edmonds should have been 1 for 3 which is a solid day and with a little luck he could had a big day and gone 2 for 3 with a HR

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 5:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yes i watched it

couldn’t listen to it because i was at work

Len and Bob are pretty biased in the other direction, so i wouldn’t have cared much what they said anyway, i take them with a grain of salt. They almost NEVER question Cubs management

he ended up 1-4 with 7 LOB, it’s not a good game. I don’t even hate Edmonds, i hate the acquisition of Edmonds but i have no grudge against the man himself. I don’t hate any Cardinals or rival players

The acquisition was a pointless one that tied our hands at CF for years to come while simulatenously de-valuing our top prospect (once again)

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 5:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Tied our hands in CF for years to come?

On what do you base this statement? He’s likely to be released in three weeks if he still sucks, and even if he has a good year, he won’t be a Cub past October, 2008.

Now try again.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 15, 2008 5:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

ok

sending Pie down uses his last option. You have a manager that doesn’t want to play him, so providing that manager with other options places Pie further away from playing time. Next season we’ll have the same exact problem we have now (Edmonds and Johnson arent the answer) and Pie will be left as the only option.

What do we do then? Pie can’t go to the minors, so we need to either play him or move him. We have a manager that is against playing him and the league knows this

its devalued Pie considerably

the only way this isn’t a long-term mess is if Edmonds fails and somehow Pie is given a chance to win the job outright. Otherwise he’s not going to get a chance until we have no roster flexibility to hold onto him

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 6:01 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Nope
sending Pie down uses his last option. You have a manager that doesn’t want to play him, so providing that manager with other options places Pie further away from playing time. Next season we’ll have the same exact problem we have now (Edmonds and Johnson arent the answer) and Pie will be left as the only option.
Who says that sending down Pie won’t help fix his issues at the plate? Ronny Cedeno is a guy who had very simlair struggles to Pie at the plate. He got sent down and had made adjustments at the plate that Pie needs to make. Pie is always working with the same guy who helped Cedeno make those same adjustments. All this does is force Pie to stay on the roster next year, even as a 5th outfielder. After three seasons in Triple A and all the work the Cubs people have done with him if he better improve at the plate by next year.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 6:05 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

using him as a 5th OF

devalues him

just like Ronny’s value was SHOT heading into this season and can’t seem to find his way back into playing time

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 6:06 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

OMG

why do we care about value, were trying to make these guys good baseball players. Having Pie hit 240 this year and playing everyday is gonna make his value crap just like it did to Cedenos in 06. I bet Cedeno has a ton more value then he did a few months ago even playing off the bench. Fans need to stop worrying about how much value players need to have and trying to make them good baseball players. If Pie keeps at the pace he is with the strike zone he has he’s gonna be another Jacque Jones or Corey Patterson. We need to get the player right and playing well and worry about value later.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 6:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

his minor league track record suggests

he’s more like Curtis Granderson than Corey Patterson

WHY CAN’T HE LEARN TO MAKE ADJUSTMENTS AT THE BIG LEAGUE LEVEL

WE’RE GETTING ZERO PRODUCTION OUT OF CF WITHOUT PIE IN THERE, WHY CAN’T WE SEE IF HE CAN DEVELOP THIS YEAR

our highest possible ceiling as a team is with Felix Pie in CF, this is the PERFECT time to let him work through things at the major league level

he hasn’t been given any semblance of consistent playing time

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 15, 2008 6:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes you can

Pie still strikes out way too much while hitting 362 in just 229 AB’s and still doesn’t walk enough. Whats easier for a young player playing everyday in Triple A and improving on your strike zone issues, or trying to do it in the majors on a contending team with the fans booing you and the media all over you for sucking? How many times have the Cubs just handed guys jobs and let them play? How has that worked out for us?

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 6:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Jason Dubois, Ronny Cedeno, Corey Patterson, Kevin Orie and others say hello by the way. Lets play Pie everyday when his skills are ready to play everyday in the majors.The key to Pie’s success is to look past his stats and evaluate the progress he’s making on certain fundamentals at the plate. He needs to shorten his swing and change his approach.The problem with the Cubs org. is that we reward players based on their stats, but not necessarily based on their readiness for a particular level of play. Pie was clearly overmatched at the plate because of the holes in his swing

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 6:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ryne Sandberg also says, "Hi"

and is glad the Cubs let him work through his difficulties at the ML level. When your difficulty is getting a hold of ML pitching, seeing more AAA pitching doesn’t help matters. There is a significant degree of difference between an AB against Les Walrond and an AB against Jake Peavy.

by DGU on May 15, 2008 6:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Then

why is Pie still struggling to make contact and take walks against Les Walrond of the world? The point is Pie still has many holes he needs to correct, and it’s alot easier to take advantage of it in the major leagues.If he corrects those issues and he should have a better chance at success in the major leagues.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:09 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think you mean to say “minor leagues” in your second sentence there.

I don’t see how Pie learns to hit major league pitching in the minors. By definition, it’s impossible. I suppose he could do batting practice against Rich Hill, but do we really care if Felix Pie can take Rich Hill yard? :D

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on May 15, 2008 9:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Is he struggling?

His career line of .300/.355/.469/.824 in the minors would seem to indicate otherwise. I’m not even sure he’s played a game since he went down 21 hours ago. But of course, now you’re going to say that he’s a AAAA ball player. And that’s what makes circular logic so much fun. You really only need an immediate inference and then when the premise is denied, you assert the conclusion; when the conclusion is denied, you assert the premise.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 15, 2008 9:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No

I still think PIe has a chance to be a good player. You can’t just look at the fact he hit well in half the season last year. You gotta look at the fact that he still striked out alot and still didn’t walk enough. So that teams me many of the better minor league pitchers were still getting him out the way major league pitchers have.

I would be much more impressed and excited for Pie to be successful, if he hits 350 and strikes out less or learns to walk more.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:28 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

For example

Cedeno hit 355 but didn’t walk alot and still striked out alot. Then guess what happen in 2006 he got his chance hit 245/271 walked 17 times and striked out 109 times in 534 AB’s Then looked ever worse off the bench in a limited role last year. But he worked on his strike zone in the minors and in winter ball and now were seeing the results.

So instead of putting Pie out there everyday to hit 240, lets have him working on these adjustments right now. It’s very hard to make these adjustments in the major leagues especially on a contending team.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Can you learn to drive a car

on a go-cart track?

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 15, 2008 9:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Better yet:

I know how to drive my car, but that doesn’t mean I’m ready to be a NASCAR driver. I can go to driving school every day for the rest of my life and still not be ready. The only way to learn is drive the racecar in a race. Pie has nothing to learn in AAA. He’s ready for the big track.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 15, 2008 9:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It's the only way

thats the point Pie still has plenty of things to approve on in the minors. Thats what some fans aren’t getting I think. He has one big season in the minors, but it wasn’t even a full year.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No he is not...

...simply because over two seperate seasons, he has been badly overmatched at the big league level.

But, there is good news. People who probably know what they are looking at, have found the problem he needs to fix, so he stops looking like he is overmatched at this level. There is nothing that will prohibit him from making that physical change at AAA an carry that change with him to the big leagues when it is ingrained.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 9:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

there is

something preventing him from getting to make those adjustments at the big league level though

and his name is Lou Pineilla

Look at Cedeno as a perfect example, those in support of Pie being sent down cite Ronny. Well Ronny has supposedly made all these adjustments and then when an injury comes up (Soriano) that he can get playing time, Lou turns to Fontenot

What’s to say Lou won’t do the exact same thing whenever Pie’s recalled again, turning to whatever older player Lou has available

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 16, 2008 8:30 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It's possible...

...your right and it’s possible you are wrong in regards to placing Pie’s failings on Piniella.

It’s also possible that it was a mistake to bring Pie North to start the season. If he had 30 games or so to concentrate on his swing at AAA, he may be in a better position right now to be a productive ML hitter.

We’ll never know the definitive answers to any of these questions, because you can’t turn back the clock and try a different route. It does allow for some interesting discussion though.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 16, 2008 8:38 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Not totally

but you can get a good idea of what to do. If some of the better minor league pitchers are still striking out Pie to much and he’s still not walking much. Whats gonna happen against major league pitchers? Pie needs a better understanding of the strike zone.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The biggest mistake

is to think Pie was this awesome player in the minors, He’s never had a fullseason with a 800 OPS. He’s never hit above 300 in a fullseason. The most he has ever walked in a season was 46 times and that was in 559 AB’s. He’s striked out 98,116 and 128 times in his last three fullseasons in the minors as well.

Yes Pie was a consistently good average wise in his career, and he has a huge half season last year. So I don’t agree that this guy has nothing left to learn in Triple A. It would be a different story if he didn’t strike out 40 times in 55 games last year or only was 19 times in 229 AB’s.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 9:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

There are plenty of successful hittes who strike out a lot.

Strikeouts can be an indicator of potential problems, but you cannot claim Pie was nothing in the minors. He was a top 50 prospect in 2007, a top 30 prospect in 2006, a top 35 prospect in 2005, and a top 100 prospect in 2004. All along that way, people whose jobs are to identify talent saw major talent in Pie.

Why do you think you can overrule their opinions by counting strikeouts?

by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I never said

he wasn’t a good minor league player, and he doesn’t have a ton of talent that made him a top notch prospect. I’m just saying he still has plenty to learn in the minors. If he can improve just on a few things he could possible stick in the majors. Plus it’s not so much the strike outs, it’s the strike outs and lack of walks mixed together.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You said, and I quote:

“The biggest mistake is to think Pie was this awesome player in the minors.”

Pie was a top 100 prospect 4 years running and would have been 5 years running had he not been called up to sit the bench in the Majors last year. If that’s not “awesome” then there’s no such thing as an “awesome player” in the minors.

by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

There's a difference between

putting up awesome numbers, and being ranked a awesome prospect. What I’m trying to say is that people act like he put up huge numbers(did that once for half a season and still had plenty flaws) and is so good he has nothing left to prove down there. So it’s not true, because Pie still needs to improve against LH pitching, he still needs to either strike out less, or walk more, and a few other things.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm confused.

Was Pie an awesome player in the minors or not?

His 2007 prospect rating included a look at how he fared against AAA pitching.

by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He was ranked

a awesome player because of his talent, and had a huge half season in Triple A last year. Other then that no he didn’t put up awesome numbers. Even half of last season he still had plenty of flaws about his swing, that were capialized on 100 times more in the majors. If he can fix those flaws in the minors and it will be easier to adjust in the majors.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:29 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

See, this is the problem

with just looking over minor league stats. Most of us don’t know the context. We don’t know the overall state of the leagues and parks any individual player hit in. Pie’s #s may not look good to you, but did you compare them to all the other hitters in that same league of a similar age? I know I can’t do that. But Baseball America can. And when they say that Felix Pie was an awesome player for four years running, I say, “Cool.”

by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

When you shorten...

...your swing as a hitter, you will also become a more selective hitter.

Why? Because if you are quicker with the bat to the ball, you have the confidence to wait a tad bit longer before you have to commit to your swing. Waiting that split second more, can be the difference between recognizing that breaking ball is going to bounce in front of the plate, or flailing away at it.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 10:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

and Lou worked with him, and so has Perry. Since they worked with him he has improved a little, but he still has away to go. Now Dave Keller will be with him day and night and try to make the same adjustments that he got Cedeno to make.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:06 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think your right...

...but that has more to do with his swing, than anything else.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 9:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Or

it had more to do with Lou wanting an established LH bat than anything else.

We can both make our assertions until the cows come home. But in the end, it was Lou, for whatever reason, who chose not to give Pie the chance.

by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:11 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think...

...I ever said it wasn’t Lou that didn’t give him the chance. In fact, it was what Lou saw (or didn’t see) that caused him to make the decision that he did.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 10:17 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Right

we agree Lou chose not to give Pie a chance.

What we disagree about is WHY Lou chose not to give Pie a chance and/or if he was right not to give Pie a chance.

Others on this board have claimed that Pie had a chance, or even plenty of chances.

by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:19 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Here is my take...

...on how much of a chance Pie got.

Was it an all out let him play 30-40 straight games and see what he does? No it was not. Did he get opportunities to show he was improving? Yes, although not for extended periods of time.

IMO, if Lou thought all Pie needed was more ML AB’s, he would have given them to him. But, I think Piniella kept seeing this faulty swing, that needed quite a bit of repair and knew Pie was going to spiral downward by throwing him out there over and over again with that swing.

This begs an obvious question; then why was Pie in the bigs for this long if Lou was not going to play him consistantly? That is a very good question, and it probably happened because Hendry wanted to see if Pie would catch on and force Lou’s hand.

I also think Lou would have preferered letting Pie start the season in AAA vs bringing him North, but few options and maybe playing along with Hendry allowed Pie to come North when he needed more time to work on that swing in AAA.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 10:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You could be right, but what sticks in my craw

is that when Pie hit .500 over the course of 4 days, Lou benched him for 5 days.

If your struggling pet project suddenly showed signs of getting it and was smoking the ball, what would you, as a manager have done?

by DGU on May 15, 2008 10:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think I recall...

...that stretch, but don’t know if the Cubs ended up facing some lefties or what the deal was. I’ll admit, there were times when they faced a righty, that I don’t think it would have been a big deal to throw Pie out there.

Now, I guess this shows how strongly Lou feels about this, and possibly some differences he has with Hendry on this subject.

I’ll close with this thought; Piniella is the kind of guy who believes if a hitter is ready to play at this level, he will find a way to take advantage of opportunities when provided. Agree or disagree with that, Lou is big on sending one clear message to his team – if you produce, you play.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 15, 2008 10:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I totally agree with that.

Lou expects a prospect – really, any player – to perform right away. If you do, you will have more opportunities to go through dry stretches.

by DGU on May 15, 2008 11:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think thats whats going on
This begs an obvious question; then why was Pie in the bigs for this long if Lou was not going to play him consistantly? That is a very good question, and it probably happened because Hendry wanted to see if Pie would catch on and force Lou’s hand
.

Hendry wants Pie to be good right now, to increase his value and have a quality young player cheap everyday. While Lou doesn’t think Pie is ready, and thinks he’s going to struggle really bad playing alot.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

To increase his value???

So, you think Hendry wants to trade him? What does ‘increase his value’ mean?

by crazymountain on May 15, 2008 10:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No

he isn’t looking to trade him. But if there is a stud player you really wanna get Pie isn’t nearly has good as some teams top prospects so that does put us in a disadvantage.. I more mean he wants Pie to play everyday and is pushing for him to be good right now. Hendry is the one who didn’t bring in a everyday CF the last two offseason for these reasons. He’s waiting for Pie and he wants him to take over the job and get going. Piniella still thinks Pie needs alot of work at the plate, and shouldn’t be playing everyday in the majors, so there’s a conflict.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Lou

made many comments over and over again about Pie swing, How he had to shorten it, and have a better understanding of the strike zone. He even worked with him to try to fix these issues. So I’m sure wants Pie to do well. He’s just not going to play him alot of he doesn’t feel he’s going to be successful. Personally I do think Piniella should have played Pie a little more though to see what they had. If Pie plays everyday and is hitting 220 right now I don’t think people would be quite as upset because it comes off not really giving Pie a chance. But Lou job is to win baseball games and put players in postion to win games.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:18 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And it's your supposition that if Pie can't hit...

...up to a certain level, he can’t put us in position to win games, regardless of the rest of his contribution.

by cwyers on May 15, 2008 10:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not saying

Pie can’t hit or gonna call him a AAAA player. I just think Pie isn’t quite ready to be a everyday major league player yet even against RH pitchers. He’s still 23 and has a ton of talent, he just needs to make improvements with the strike zone and so on.

by cubsfan25 on May 15, 2008 10:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That wasn't the question.

The question is, given our other options, you think that Pie doesn’t give us the best chance to win. Am I reading this right?

by cwyers on May 15, 2008 10:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs