Playing a shallow center field: Tris Speaker
by cubfever7 on May 20, 2008 3:32 PM CDT
42 comments
This guy in my view is one of the most oft overlooked, great all time players. Check out his career highlights here if you like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tris_Speaker
Offensively he was awesome--but in light of the Edmonds playing shallow debate, I found this to be interesting:
"As a center fielder, Speaker played so shallowly for most hitters that he was like a fifth infielder, swift of foot, chasing down potential singles. Twice in 1914, on April 21 and August 8, he executed an unassisted double play at second base, snaring low line drives on the run and then beating base runners to the bag. He repeated this feat in 1918 with the Indians, on April 18 and April 29, and turned six of them during his career. At least once in his career he was credited as the pivot man in a routine double play. Bill Carrigan, a longtime teammate of Speaker's on the Red Sox, often would send a pickoff throw from his catcher's position to Speaker who had sneaked in on second base. In addition, as Indians' manager he insisted the team practice a play where he from center field would cover the keystone sack on bunt plays, thus freeing up his shortstop to cover third, and his third baseman to charge the bunts."
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Wow
We tried that same pick off at second using the CF when I was in junior high, our coach made us run laps the next day, sufficed to say , it didnt work, though it sounded awesome at the time. So I guess its nice to know we were on to something….good for him.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on May 20, 2008 3:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That play sort of scares me
If there are guys on first and second and you run that play, you take the risk of throwing the ball into center with no one backing up. That could be a rather costly error.
by rambler19 on May 20, 2008 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why one of the corner outfielders must bust hump...
into center…just before the pickoff throw is made. We’ve used it in my sons Pony League games, with surprisingly good results. Granted, the field is smaller.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2008 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was at the Cubs game last week
when the crowd was getting really really loud and men were on 2nd and 3rd and fans were booing the intentional walk. DOME was on second and the centerfielder came running it towards second. If the pitcher noticed DOME would have been out by 10 feet.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on May 21, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Today's players hit the ball further...
...than they did back then, but today’s ballparks are also much smaller, with less room to cover over behind you.
The concept here is very simple; it is an advantage to play as shallow as you can, as long as you still have the ability to get back on most balls. It takes more than just speed, because you have to have the skill to judge the ball while in a full sprint (a lot of guys can’t do it, and they are more comfortable playing deeper.
Edmond’s has showed through his career that he can do it, and he showed he still has that ability last night.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 20, 2008 3:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Dead Ball Era
He probably was able to play shallower than anyone would dare to today. The bigger ballparks also helped account for the huge doubles and triples totals that players racked up back then. Plus, some teams roped off parts of the outfield to make room for more paying customers and any ball that rolled into the crowd was a ground rule double. If I ever get unlimited access to a time machine, it would be a real treat to go back and attend games in the early 20th Century.
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on May 20, 2008 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playing shallow...
I personally think that the best outfielders are the ones who can play shallow but obviously, can still make plays on the balls that are hit deep. I really don’t have a problem with Edmonds playing shallow. If he can get a good jump on baseballs that are hit over his head and get there in time to catch them, then keep on doing it. A lot of people say he plays shallow and dogs it on some balls so he can “make the great play.” While I have seen him sort of drift with the ball instead of running to the spot where the ball will land, he does usually make the play if he can get there. And it allows him to take away many of the hits to shallow center.
MPH73 just posted above and he hit the nail on the head. Unless it’s a situation where you need to play deep (no doubles), play as shallow as your ability allows.
by rambler19 on May 20, 2008 3:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Spoken like someone who's actually played outfield above little league level!
BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"
by cubfever7 on May 20, 2008 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was always taught to play as shallow as you feel comfortable playing...
which meant I camped out 3 feet from the warning track.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2008 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few times here or there...
Is that sarcasm? Haha…I will actually be patrolling left field in a game for our semi-pro league tonight. 5th day in a row with a game, so I’m starting to know what it feels like to have a game every single day.
by rambler19 on May 20, 2008 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No sarcasm at all.
When you play in leagues with grown men and mediocre pitching, the left fielder is at least in the top 2 in defensive importance many times. You get a lot of action and if you play too deep, good teams will kill you. I got to play against Eddie Zolna and about half the Bobcats one time and they were impossible to defend-it was slow pitch and if you played shallow, most could jack it over your head-play back-they dunked it all night and ran the bases. We had a GREAT team loaded with college players-an ex-NFL player, ex- WFL and they killed us 14-1. Plus-most of their guys were grey headed-but they slaughtered us anyhow.
BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"
by cubfever7 on May 20, 2008 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Softball or baseball?
I noticed you said slow pitch and I’ve never heard of slow pitch baseball, but maybe there is such a thing? I find that playing outfield is softball is ridiculous. It’s simply too easy of a game for hitters. That’s why I don’t play slow-pitch softball anymore and stick strictly to baseball. Plus, softballs were hard on my arm after I had pitched in a baseball game.
by rambler19 on May 20, 2008 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The slow pitch was softball....
...but the reference to mediocre pitching was hard ball…..if the league has a ton of weak pitching, the left fielder is gonna stay busy.
BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"
by cubfever7 on May 20, 2008 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bobcats
Were a dynasty. I played against them too. Not sure if Zolna was still with them then or not. This was in the early 80’s. We played them tough, but lost. And you’re right about the left fielder. Our’s was great, but was run ragged playing against those guys and the Whips too.
"I realize very well that I could regress to the mean."
-Brian Bannister on his BABIP
by Bump Bailey on May 20, 2008 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They only had a portion of their team when we played them....
Ron Olesiak and the Kellehers were not there--but Zolna, Willie Simpson and a couple others were. Simpson played 2b instead of catcher-they made it look so easy, almost like hustlers.
You must have had an awesome team to hang with them. We couldn’t and we had the Sutor brothers-, a guy named Porter who was a back on the Cardinal roster with Terry Metcalf and OJ Anderson, Tony VanBoskirk was a great player who was a QB and team captain at Lake Forest and our best player was in the White Sox system at one point-Bobby something—-about 5’9” 170 and could jack ‘em almost every ab…unreal.
BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"
by cubfever7 on May 21, 2008 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forgot on the Sutor brothers..
Doug is now baseball coach at Carl Sandberg high-but was on the Oak Raiders and Chicago Fire-Dave was probably the best softball player/hitter—but was a hockey player at heart….the youngest brother played safety at Purdue if I recall.
BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"
by cubfever7 on May 21, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was never good with names..
But I do remember Olesiak and the Kellehers, and of course Zolna who is a legend in 16”. Simpson was a beast .The Sutor brothers sound familiar too. I was in the Calumet City league for about 10 years. We had Jim Fanta, Bruce Parker, and a wide receiver from Northwestern, whose name escapes me. Cal City was as tough as any league going back then. Park Avenue Spats was always in the Nationals and won it all in ‘82 I think. But those Bobcat teams were in a class by themselves for sure.
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
by Bump Bailey on May 21, 2008 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
How many easy singles drop in front of Fonzie because he plays so deep. Now I’m certain that he does not that that ability to judge the ball off of the bat like Edmonds. He’d be a much better outfielder if he could.
Cubs Win!! Cubs Win!
by Ihatethecards on May 20, 2008 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you have an answer to your rhetorical question...
...or are you just going to assume the answer coincides with your opinions on the subject?
by cwyers on May 20, 2008 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unassisted Outfield Double Plays...
For as much as the Wikipedia article mentions the unassisted outfield double plays, that’s hardly a good indication of a fielder’s quality. Hell, Cliff Floyd has an unassisted double play to his credit (against the Cubs, no less) (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN200108280.shtml) and no one talks about his defensive prowess.
That said, so long as a player can get proper reads on balls off the bat and have the legs for it, playing shallow isn’t really a detriment.
by MarchHare on May 20, 2008 5:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Tris is rolling in his grave...
...when being mentioned in the same breath ol’ Cliff Floyd. You vastly understate Speaker’s almost one of a kind defensive prowess, which I don’t think was your intent. In the same vein, the Wiki triple play section should by no means define how Speaker changed a game with his very presence.
http://www.thebaseballpage.com/players/speaktr01.php
Tris Speaker
Generally regarded as the best defensive center fielder to ever play the game, Tris Speaker was no slouch at the plate, batting .344 in 22 seasons in the American League. Speaker was involved in one of the most controversial trades of his time and later led the Cleveland Indians to their first World Series title, while serving as player/manager. He was the most prolific doubles hitter in history, and also holds major league marks for putouts and assists by an outfielder. He was a key member of the first two Boston Red Sox World Championship teams, in 1912 and 1915. On the Sox he formed one of the greatest outfields in baseball history with teammates Duffy Lewis and Harry Hooper.
BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"
by cubfever7 on May 20, 2008 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playing a shallow center is a good thing
Jim Edmonds has caught more bloopers and short flys in his career than just about anybody. He’s had confidence in his ability to go back on a ball. It is what made him a great center fielder.
Remember Corey Patterson? For all his athletic ability and skill he played a ridiculously deep center field.
Adding knowledge and challenging the saber-magicians, one post at a time.
by MDBNIU on May 20, 2008 5:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey at least
Corey gave it the old “College Try”
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on May 21, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's what the player is comfortable with
unless a specific situation dictates otherwise.
Edmonds has always struck me as an CF’er that can go get ‘em away from the plate better than he has reading the ball coming in. The play I saw last night I must have seen at least a half-dozen other times by him, almost all seemingly against the Cubs.
The limited time I played CF (less than 50 games) compared to 1B found me a little more shallow than most other players. Two things drove that for me by my coaches; above average speed to get back on the ball and just an average arm.
Guys you see play deep likely have issues reading the line drive straight at them. If they’re more shallow, one step in and they could be in trouble. If they’re back, that is less likely to happen. However that also costs pitchers some easier outs when they get a batter to pop it up far enough over the IF but shallow in the OF. Many times those fall in. With 2 runners in scoring position and 2 outs that almost always results in 2 runs.
by blackhawk24 on May 20, 2008 9:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Went ahead and crunched some quick numbers.
Last season, Jim Edmonds caught (either recording an out or an error) 76.8% of all line drives that he fielded. The average center fielder caught 80.9% of all line drives they fielded. So Edmonds ended up chasing down more liners than the average center fielder.
You’re not going to save a lot of hits catching fewer balls than average.
by cwyers on May 20, 2008 11:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
But those are nothing more than offical numbers and meaningless facts!
...using numbers and facts…you can prove anything that’s even remotely true!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 21, 2008 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question.
How many of those line drives were shallow, and how many were deep, compared to the average CF?
That would go a long way to tell us whether playing shallow is useful.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 21, 2008 3:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The hit location data I have shows where the ball is fielded, not where it lands.
I can check to see if the Retrosheet hit location data is robust enough for this purpose.
by cwyers on May 21, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playing shallow is immensely useful
Remember Corey Patterson? Remember how ridiculously deep he used to play and how hits would drop in front of him game after game? There was no reason for it given his exceptional athletic tools. Jim Edmonds is a dying breed in MLB because he is one of the few outfielders who is both ballsy and talented enough to play shallow. I can guarantee you that pitchers in Anaheim and St. Louis greatly appreciated the presence of Edmonds in CF for them.
Adding knowledge and challenging the saber-magicians, one post at a time.
by MDBNIU on May 21, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are right
about him being a dying breed. Release him and his great ability to swing through 90MPH fastballs and his need to start swinging early therefore flailing at offspeed pitches.
And that catch from the other night? Impressive YES, but IMO not as impressive as the catch Bourn made off of Ramirezs bat, a clear example of how a faster/younger LESS BALSY center fielder can get to ball.s
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on May 21, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry...
...but I just don’t buy it. How do they define a line drive? There are way too many variables here for numbers like this to be reliable.
There is no question in my mind, playing a shallow CF is a benefit, as long as you have the capability to go back on the deep ball.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on May 21, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al, well isn't that special...
Now I see that someone has taken the liberty of editing my posts for content. Despite nary a word of attack or profanity. Lovely stuff.
Adding knowledge and challenging the saber-magicians, one post at a time.
by MDBNIU on May 21, 2008 12:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Excuse me?
Which post are you claiming is edited? No one is doing that.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 21, 2008 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will be shocked....shocked! If he actually responds to you.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 21, 2008 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His real name is Oliver Stone? ;c-)
BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"
by cubfever7 on May 21, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
I do see that SWL is correct, though. No response.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 21, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I told you so....
think for a sec about the last time he has ever responded to an actual question or comment about him being wrong.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 21, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al..
I posted a comparison of Gary Matthews, Torii Hunter, Jim Edmonds, Andruw Jones and several other CFers of the current era. And it was cut out of a post.
Adding knowledge and challenging the saber-magicians, one post at a time.
by MDBNIU on May 21, 2008 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tip my hat to you sir...
for proving me wrong…Again!, as you would no doubt exclaim. Was it the “Playing shallow is immensely useful” post?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 21, 2008 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it was "cut out"...
... you did it. There is no editing of posts here.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on May 21, 2008 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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