The Jimmy Edmonds Experience
by cubs0505 on May 21, 2008 9:25 PM CDT
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PrintPerhaps some Cub fans might feel I'm jumping the gun here, but after watching Jim Edmonds play in a Cubs uniform for the last several games, it's my belief that the guy is spent.
I know he made a pretty great catch the other night in Houston, but with the way Pie and Johnson have been handling center so far this year I feel that either of them have a pretty good chance to make the same play as well.
At the plate, he stinks. 2-12 is not the way to prove you've got something left. After watching him kill a potential rally last night with that double play, and tonight flying out routinely with Hoffpauir on second and one out in the 7th, I think that all he's doing for the team is eating up a roster spot that someone in Triple-A deserves more.
Your thoughts?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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The average doesn't bother me.
The fact that I don’t recall him hitting one ball hard and on the screws does. IMO he’s got no pop left, and a 38 year old center fielder who doesn’t hit for average and has no pop is not worth taking AB’s away from Felix. I’m ready to call this experiment over.
Ron Santo should sing TMOTTBG everyday. Period.
I feel bad for him....
its obvious the poor guy is trying, but he may be reaching the end of the line, if he hasn’t already…...it seems his timing is off, and he’d trying to make up for a loss of bat speed…..I like feel good stories, so I’m still sort of hopeful, but its a blind hope
Chuck Norris is a Cubs fan...
This hits the nail on the head.
The Cubs were trying to catch lightning in a bottle. Obviously, the lightning is out. Edmonds appears to be able to still play CF, but his bat is dead.
Release him and bring Felix Pie back.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
totally agree
He makes me nervous. I’d much rather see Johson or Pie running around vs. Edmonds…
"I’ll try to do anything to win a game." - My Man....BIG Z
You want to feel bad for him?
Feel bad for me then too I played 1 day in college before blowing out my shoulder. Dont feel bad for really rich guys that got to play a game their whole lifes and dont know when to say when.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Ha, I dont mind if you dont believe
If youd like to see the surgery bill Id be glad to fax it to ya :)
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
In the end
Edmonds will make his destiny. If he doesn’t show any pop left he will be gone (you certainly don’t expect him to hit for average). Obviously they will not make a decision from 12 ABs, but he will not get two months either.
Now, for something else, what’s up with DLee swinging at the first pitch in the 9th with the team down 2 runs? Even if he hits a HR you are still down a run. And to add insult to injury he didn’t seem to swing at one ball in the zone (judging from ESPN gameday). His OBP is in the .360s, which is less than what you’d expect from him. Since he has been in this slump I’ve seen him swinging a lot more than usual. And swinging at a lot bad pitches early in the count which is not characteristic form him.
Same thing with DeRosa yesterday. Edmonds walked on four pitches, then Valverde throws him a ball and he swings at the next pitch. Down by two runs you needed base runners since you DeRosa is not a HR hitter. He should have been taking until Valderde threw him at least 1 strike.
These last two games the team has been a bit hackalicious and has paid the price for it. Hopefully we are not seeing a trend here.
Agree on both...
...of your points. The Cubs made it way too easy on Valverde tonight by swinging at slop, when they should have been taking a strike.
On Edmonds; I agree he will get about a month or so to get his timing (if it comes back). That ball he hit to right tonight, he just missed. Another inch up on the bat and it is gone to tie the game. I certainly wouldn’t bury the guy just yet.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Agree on all three...
He certainly looked better tonight at the plate…
But, judging from Lou’s comments to Ron Santo on the pre-game before the first game of this series, it sounded like Edmond’s has two weeks tops….
Yet another reason to find baseball fascinating though….watching Soto starting his career, no pressure on his shoulders, smoking hot…then watching Edmond’s and almost seeing the “is this my last at-bat in baseball” look on his face….
I don’t care if I’d like him as a person or not though….I just want to see him hit and score the Cubs some runs….
2 weeks...
...is a little tough, but Lou is not the most patient guy around. I think the timing of a possible Edmonds release, will depend on how Pie is looking as well. I really don’t think Piniella wants to expose Johnson out there as a full-time player.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
DERO
Should have been hit for, hed been bad all day.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Feels like he's been bad this week.
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on May 22, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions
He's 4-12 this week...
He had a bad day, but he was 2-4 on both Monday and Tuesday.
by SouthernCub on May 22, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I know, my point is
Dero did nothing but swing at balls and take strikes yesterday. I would have hit for him in that spot. But—-thats me.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
I was responding to the "Feels like he's been bad this week" post...
not your post about yesterday.
by SouthernCub on May 22, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe it was my recollection then
of several key at bats that I remember him macking at hard sliders deep into the dirt.
Oh well, my bad.
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on May 22, 2008 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
That Valverde AB
was the only good one I’ve seen Edmonds have as a Cub. Not sure if they were pitching cautiously to him (why would they? He doesn’t exactly strike fear into anyone’s heart), but you voiced what I was thinking about DeRosa.
Kosuke, we need you!
"Hey! If the moon were made of ribs, wouldja eat it? I know I would!"
This isn't alarming yet, but...
... Fukudome’s home/road splits:
Home: .393/.505/.562
Road: .205/.292/.282
At Wrigley he’s a Hall of Famer. On the road, so far at least, he’s Neifi Perez.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
The .732 OPS in May is something to keep an eye on too...
FWIW, DeRosa has really bad home/road splits as well so far this year. Very strange.
by SouthernCub on May 22, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
the whole team
is struggling on the road.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 22, 2008 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Basically everyone but Ramirez and Soto...
Which is very strange.
by SouthernCub on May 22, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
someone on the game thread said it was
Mental toughness, and that would be Lou’s next focus. Problem is, I don’t know how someone teaches toughness.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 22, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
I doubt it's mental toughness...
Considering that Lee, Soriano, and DeRosa haven’t historically had bad road splits. They’ve been slightly better at home (which makes sense as Wrigley is slightly a hitters’ park), but not to this extreme.
I agree though – I’m not sure how you teach intangibles…
by SouthernCub on May 22, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
indeed
and Lee DEFINES toughness.
Is it possible that they’re just getting that much of a charge when they’re playing at Wrigley?
As Al says, if they split 2-3 at Pittsburgh, it’s a .500 road trip, and we’re 11-12 on the road, so maybe away games just SEEM worse?
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 22, 2008 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
DeRosa
I really like DeRosa—but it seems like every time he’s up as the tying or go-ahead run late in the game that he swings from the heels. Is this just my perception, or have others noticed this?
by Shanghai Badger on May 21, 2008 10:34 PM CDT reply actions
I see the same thing...
he looks like he’s trying to hit a 5 run HR most of the time. You’d think that when you swing and miss at a pitch and you find yourself standing in the opposite batters box that might be a clue you’re “over swinging”.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 21, 2008 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions
As far as Edmonds...
I hate to say it, but I think we need to keep the experiment going for at least another 2-3 weeks. Over those two+ weeks, Reed will eat up some of the starts. This will give Edmonds an opportunity to hit off the bench (can he be a bench guy?) and see what else he might bring to the table. In addition, it’ll give Felix time to put into practice what they have been preaching at the Big Show. Good game for HoffPOWER… maybe move Dome over to center for a handfull of starts over the next couple weeks… put Hoff in RF
You can't play The Hoff in RF
He is a converted 1st baseman and weaker in the outfield than Soriano. You need your two best outfielders in Right and Center…
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on May 21, 2008 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Good point, though
I saw in him in RF at Spring Training and didn’t seem too bad. I think he’s dabbled there in AAA, but no confirmation. I agree with your opinion of the bst outfielders…
by socalicubsfan on May 21, 2008 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I have to agree
Edmonds is ours. He’s been injured. Those are facts. Whether he turns it around no one knows but if he is still serviceable, wh have to give him the benefit of the doubt. (And make realize I am no fan of Edmonds.) If this were DLee or another one of our top players, we would give them time to get back on track. It may just take him time. He’ll never be as good as he once was but guys just don’t forget how to hit. His timing is off which is a sign of more swings in the cage or in games. I just don’t want to dump him too fast, have him go to another team and hit .280 the rest of the season. 2-3 weeks we should know.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
I don't think he's going to hit .280 anywhere...
There were his averages over the past three seasons: .263, .257, .253. I think it’s fairly safe to say that .280 is out of the question.
Those averages and the fact that he’s had a dip in power from 29 HR in 2005 to 19 HR in 2006 to 12 HR in 2007 are a big part the reason people were against signing Edmonds in the first place. The failure to hit so far this year follows a continuation of those downward trends.
no.
We don’t have to give him the benefit of the doubt. He’s a rental, and a bad one. He’s not going to be the Cubs CF of the future. We have that guy. I’m not interested in helping an injured, past-his-prime player relive old glories. Release Edmonds.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 22, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Lack of Focus
Bit us in the Ying Yang again.
Throwing an 0-2 to pitch to Lee anywhere near the Strike Zone was just stupid. Gallagher consistently missed his spots when he was ahead in the count and was lucky to get out with only 5 earned.
Not holding Berkman on 1st in the 5th loomed large in the 7th when Micah lead off with the double. I have seen this in multiple games…need to get better at this so that Soto has a chance.
As was said Earlier…Lee swinging at that crap pitch in the 9th.
As far as Hollywood is concerned…dump him. If you are willing to take that crap approach at the plate, might as well just play Pie everyday and hope that his speed gets him a few hits…
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on May 21, 2008 10:47 PM CDT reply actions
Gallagher was a bit...
...overwhelmed, and it showed.
He hung a lot of breaking balls which is a result of trying to overthrow that pitch and choking it to death.
The jump Berkman was able to get on him was embarassing, and showed he was a bit nervous. Right after Berkman stole second, Gallagher forgot to look back at him on the very next pitch when he was on second, and Berkman could have been half way to third without Gallagher knowing.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I don't think it was nerves
as much as it was inexperience and not having command of his pitches. I was not particulary happy to see him shaking off Soto. That young…he needs to trust that his catcher knows the hitters better than he.
I like Gallagher…but I don’t think that he is the answer this year. Next year…He is my front runner as the #3 or #4 guy. Good young starting pitching is like Middle Eastern Oil.. Let’s hope that the Cubs don’t get stupid and try to package him for that leadoff guy from the east.
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on May 21, 2008 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions
The reason I think...
...it was nerves, was how he totally forgot about Berkman at 1st and than failed to even look at him when he was on second. Second nature things like that, tend to happen when are a tad overwhelmed.
All in all, it happens to young guys, and I don’t see any reason he won’t put all this aside with more experience.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
How about if...
the Edmonds experiment fails in the next couple of weeks, give Onedec a few starts in center. He has been a pleasent surprise this season, and deserves more playing time. The AAA manager was impressed with Ronny’s defense in CF.
Lou needs to get this fixation for a LH power bat out of his head. The Cubs have four players that are capable of 30 plus homers, no matter if a lefty or righty is going.
Not gonna happen...
For one thing, Piniella seems set on having a LH bat in the lineup, and he’d prefer it to have power. For another, I still get the feeling that Cedeno is low on Piniella’s totem pole.
If anything, I could see Piniella giving Hoffpauir a shot in RF (which is a bad idea defensively) or platooning Cedeno and Fontenot at 2B and putting DeRosa in RF. I think the thought of Cedeno in CF ended when Johnson was signed.
Doesn't it seem eminently clear...
... that Edmonds has nothing left, no power, either?
I hope this doesn’t mean sticking Hoffpauir in RF and moving Fukudome to CF. That’d absolutely destroy the RF defense. Hoffpauir would be worse than having the Murton/Floyd platoon in RF last year, and that was brutal.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Completely agree...
I’m hopeful that Edmonds SOMEHOW has something left, because Hoffpauir is not a reasonable option in RF. Edmonds is almost certainly done, though.
Jim Edmonds
Well, it looks to me that you can stick a fork in Jim Edmonds, because he’s done. Shades of Steve Finley near the end. The bat is just too slow through the zone right now. Also, if you look closely Edmonds is trying to cheat on the fastball.
We’ll see. I’m thinking he gets another week’s worth of at bats to see what happens.
Adding knowledge and challenging the saber-magicians, one post at a time.
A rational statement from you... I'm shocked...
I’m glad to see you’re coming around to reality on Edmonds. Since he’s here, I still hope he magically finds his swing. But the evidence over the past two years and so far this year suggests his bat speed has been quickly declining, and may now be gone.
It's amazing how quickly MDBNIU has jumped off the ship...
after so vehemently professing how clear it was that Edmonds was going to be a huge asset to the team.
To be fair...
he said that he “could be” a huge asset to the team, and he expected him to perform well enough to make a difference. His expectations were too high, but I don’t ever recall MDBNIU jumping up and down proclaiming that Edmonds was a lock to revert to his 2005 level of performance.
Wait…did I just defend MDBNIU?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 22, 2008 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions
If you're considering a new career path...
...you may have a future as a defense attorney.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
I believe he said "are going to be"
not “could be.” I COULD be wrong about that though. :)
by SouthernCub on May 22, 2008 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions
lots of strikeouts?
Admit you were wrong. Admit we were right. Bring back Pie. Move on.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 22, 2008 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree with you this time
I was neutral on the move initially. I thought maybe he might be acceptable but after seeing him bat, he’s done. He doesn’t seem to be able to get around on anything. The bat is extremely slow.
Good call on Finley..
I was thinking the same thing..
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
at this point
pie is still not ready, reeds a good sub, and edmonds is done. so what do we do? give cedeno a shot? try another lightning in the bottle risk in lofton. i think hendry will find us a cf eventually but i really would like a look at cedeno and if not play reed everyday. what could it hurt?
p.s. i cant like edmonds,i cant stand him, and he makes me throw up in my mouth to see such a beautiful uniform on him. please dump him hendry. pleaseeeeeee
It might beeeeee!! It could beeeeeee!! It issssss!! Homerun!! Holyyyyyyy Cow!!!
Cedeno isn't going to be an option...
Piniella wants a LH bat. That’s why the team took a dive in the dumpster for Edmonds. They’ll give Edmonds another week or two I suspect. If he continues to look miserable at the plate, they’ll cut him. At that point, they’ll either give Pie another shot or find another stopgap, or go with Johnson full-time (yuck) until the trade deadline approaches to see if a LH bat becomes available.
Pie
didn’t get a hit last night again (0-4). He’s not lighting it up at Iowa so this appears to be a dead end situation. Pie needs more time, we’re stuck with Edmonds. Or, Fukudome goes to center, DeRo in right for some games. We may look a long time for a LH bat. I think we look for a #2 pitcher myself.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
Look where?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
Oakland, of course
Remember a few days ago when all of Bleed Cubbie Blue united in agreement that Rich Harden would be the savior of the Cubs’ rotation this season, injuries and all?
"Hey! If the moon were made of ribs, wouldja eat it? I know I would!"
If by "all of Bleed Cubbie Blue" you mean "MDBNIU" then, yes, I definitely remember that.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
Edmonds
what I don’t quite get is the people who supported the move for Edmonds are now jumping ship and saying he’s done after 12 AB’s, this seems a bit ridiculous no?
Now i’m in the camp that thought Edmonds was done well before this transaction, so my opinion is still set. I believed at the time it was a mistake and still believe its a mistake, but if you argued the other way I don’t see how 12 AB’s changes your mind? Have you not been watching him at all in SD or STL the last 2 years? I don’t get it….
But then again, we as a fanbase don’t mind making broad generalizations off very small sample sizes, so I guess this would just classify as another example of that
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 22, 2008 9:27 AM CDT reply actions
Hear, hear!
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
I think irrationality is the common theme...
If you were irrational enough to ignore the distinct downward trends over the past three seasons, then you are probably irrational enough to make a decision based on just 12 AB.
Sorry if I’ve mislabeled anyone, but that seems to be the only common connection to me.
This is pretty much how I feel as well.
I didn’t want Edmonds on this team either, but all of us Pie supporters run the risk of hypocrisy if we write Jimbo Ballgame off after so few ABs. At this point, all we can do is grit our teeth and watch as Lou gives Edmonds enough rope to hang himself.
Jimbo does appear to play an at least serviceable centerfield, and we’re already seeing signs that the Cubs will cut ties if he doesn’t show something at the plate within a two- to three-week period. So I’m going to continue to be patient and trust Lou and Hendry make the right call when they’re ready to do so.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
he's had more than 12-15 at bats
he had all the at-bats with the Padres. Then he had all the at-bats in 2007. And 2006. We KNEW he was plummeting. And we had serviceable CF in Pie.
This is no hypocrisy. I said it was a mistake, and it was a mistake.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 22, 2008 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree it was a mistake, but what's done is done.
He’s here, and the team has to follow through on their commitment to give him a shot. That means giving Jimbo at least a couple weeks to show, in as much as is possible, that he’s capable of coming out of what he would probalby call an early-season slump. If he’s as far gone as most of us think, he’ll fail the test and be gone.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
Problem is
Pie never got a chance. CONGRATS Pie you beat out Sam Fuld in ST and when we get to Chicago we are going to give you 1 at bat to prove it. Well not really, but Lou was unfare with the kid.
Yes Blue Mike, I know your argument, save it.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Agreed...
but as daver said, what’s done is done. Clearly there is a double-standard. Edmonds is a veteran, Pie is not. This goes back to Piniella following conventional wisdom, which says “don’t be patient with the young guys – go with the ‘trusted’ vet instead.” As Al has pointed out, there are many examples of teams realizing that it may be better to buck conventional wisdom and let the youngsters figure it out on the job. Unfortunately in this case, that’s not the way Piniella does things.
I’m irritated that Pie wasn’t given a chance to figure it out given that (1) the team was winning, (2) Johnson wasn’t hitting either, and (3) all evidence suggested Edmonds was done. But, it is what it is. Hopefully Pie capitalizes on his next chance.
by SouthernCub on May 22, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
No double standard
Felix Pie was not going to hit major league pitching with that hitting approach and swing. It was bad and very exploitable by pitchers at this level. Throwing more major league at bats his way served no purpose. Lou Piniella and his staff have no bias against Pie. In fact, the situation has been quite the opposite
Pie is a salvage project. Either he dramatically reworks both his swing and strategy in the batter’s box or he is destined to be a career Triple A ballplayer.
Adding knowledge and challenging the saber-magicians, one post at a time.
Yawn...
Double standard. You’re wrong. Moving on.
by SouthernCub on May 22, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Sigh...I guess the new breakfast cereal wore off.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
Another day at the Gong Show.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 22, 2008 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I understand the frustration...
...for those that felt Pie could have turned it around if he would have been given the opportunity of more playing time.
I am not saying those folks are wrong, just that I agree with how Piniella has handled this. IMO, Pie would have been exploited with additional playing time with the swing he was bringing to the ballpark everyday. If Pie has what it takes to make it, going down to AAA to sort it out, should not prevent him from proving his ML capabilities after some seasoning.
Regarding a double standard, I think the best way to explain it is Piniella has one standard – the one he thinks will give him the best chance to win every game. He thinks the Edmonds audition is worth a try, because he has no other compelling choice that will clearly produce for him.
If you saw Piniella’s reaction to Pie’s homerun a few weeks ago against the Met’s, he was exstatic. He wants Pie to succeed, but he wants to win more, and he thinks this is the best route right now.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Double standard is warranted
I never expected much out of Edmonds and expect him to be gone in a week or two. I want Pie platooning in center with RJ unless we can nab an improvement in a trade.
But the “double standard” in how you handle a hitter who has succeeded in the majors before but is on the decline versus a hitter who has never hit in the majors at all is completely warranted. They both may or may not succeed going forward, but the veterans has demonstrably proved that he at least had the capability. He learned the lessons, made the adjustments, etc. Regardless of even the most ridiculously successful minor league numbers, you can’t say that about a youngster. Maybe he has a hole in his swing that minor league scouts/pitchers never exploited. Maybe he doesn’t recover well from slumps which he never really experienced in the minors. Maybe big crowds mess with his emotional balance, or negative media coverage. There are many maybes. The vets has handled it before.
A double standard is warranted, because they are two different players with two different backgrounds. Treating them the same would be simple minded.
by californiachicagoan on May 22, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions
no
we don’t. We should release him now, and call Pie back up.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 22, 2008 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
OK, I fancy myself a fairly big "Seinfeld" fan, and I'm not gettin' this one.
By the way, though, thanks for changing your sig line! (Pssst…the first “to” should be “too”.)
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
you keep on being wrong, Blue Mike
I’ll always be around to make sure you know it.
So much for being on the “ignore list”. I’ll have to try harder.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 22, 2008 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
lemme guess... Ron Santo in his younger cricket-playing days???
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
He's been toast
for several years now. At this point, he’s simply carbon.
"Hey! If the moon were made of ribs, wouldja eat it? I know I would!"
folks
its 15 ab, ha not a big deal but everyone continues to reference the 12.
"Anytime I want to throw 95 or 96 (m.p.h.), I can throw it. But it's not how hard you throw in the big leagues. It's how you locate your pitches and learn to pitch the game." - If Zambrano has truly figured out how to pitch, look out.
the 12 ABs
was referenced in the title of the post, that’s why everyone’s using it
12… 15… tomato- tomato
its an moot point
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 22, 2008 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
a moot point
my high school english teacher would be upset
by DartmouthCubsFan on May 22, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah sorry
12 ABs not including the game last night…but then of course I referenced an AB from last night…
Eh, sue me.
"Hey! If the moon were made of ribs, wouldja eat it? I know I would!"
Cubs will be in the market for another left-handed hitting outfielder
Who? I have no idea. Doesn’t need to be a star, just somebody who can split time with Reed Johnson and hit near the bottom of the order.
Kenny Lofton? No. He ceased being an adequate defensive center fielder a long time ago. Plus he doesn’t fit Lou’s desire for a left-handed hitting run producer.
Brian Giles? Don’t think he can play CF, plus he is owed too much money in 2008 and I’m sure San Diego will expect somebody to take on his whole salary.
Coco Crisp? I doubt it. Hendry isn’t going to want to trade a lot to get a part-time short-termer outfielder.
Mark Kotsay? Perhaps if Atlanta goes down the tubes and begins looking toward the future. They make no bones over the fact that they’d like to shed payroll. Kotsay is signed thru this year only.
Adding knowledge and challenging the saber-magicians, one post at a time.
Kotsay is actually an interesting option....
he looks healthly for the first time in a couple years, and he and Johnson could make a nice platoon in CF…
Crap…this is like the third time in the last week I’ve agreed with you. Either your getting better, or I’m getting worse…or vise-versa.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 22, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Kotsay would be acceptable, but I doubt he'll be available...
The Braves fancy themselves a contender, and Kotsay is their everyday CF. They’d have to really bottom out to trade him by the deadline.
by SouthernCub on May 22, 2008 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Did you change breakfast cereals, MDBNIU?
You do seem awfully reasonable today. Now if you would just rethink that sig line…
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
I had to...you were begging for it.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 22, 2008 11:19 AM CDT reply actions
Aw, hell yeah!
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
Not only was I begging for it
I expected something like this when I came up with the oh-so-witty title.
The bane of so many artists, expected to produce masterpieces on cue…
"Hey! If the moon were made of ribs, wouldja eat it? I know I would!"
I know...
half the time I post a reply and try to be funny/witty…I inevitably get the “Awww…I was waiting for a picture!”...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 22, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions
What's that old saying?
“Never be too good at any one thing or they’ll make you do it all the time.” Somethin’ like that…
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
what's Blue Mike's excuse?
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 22, 2008 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I think your right
Exclamation Point
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 22, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not so sure
Ellipses
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
Anyone, even the best, can look bad for several looong weeks
You’d think the Cubs’ scouts had to see something in Edmonds if we signed him, so he deserves more time, as maddening as it is. The problem is that with 3 days straight of LH pitchers, it’s fits and starts again. One thing about this schedule is that facing Pittsburgh means padding the W-L totals, but it’s also a lot of southpaws in a row, which can throw off platooned players.
I haven’t written off Edmonds yet, but I don’t have much hope left.
You have to remember that the Cubs weren't scouting Edmonds...
...other than their normal advanced scouting, so they weren’t in an ideal position to evaluate him before they picked him up. Some things, like bat control/bat speed, don’t need that long to be figured out; they have a much smaller sample needed to evaluate. I won’t pretend to be a scout, or to be able to evaluate those things very well, but it’s possible the Cubs could figure out what they think of Edmonds pretty quick here.
Your exactly right...
...which should tell you how little confidence they had in Pie being able to stay up and contribute.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Which, coupled with their signing Edmonds,
should tell us something about their judgment…..or lack thereof.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
it's gotta be a glitch.
or the organization is feeling the 100 year pressure as much as the players are.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 22, 2008 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Good grief
I don’t understand why this is so difficult to understand. The Cubs have invested enormous time and resources in Felix Pie and have strong vested interest in him succeeding. But it was very clear that he is not going to hit major league hitting with that approach.
Yet all I keep reading is that the Cubs have short-changed Felix Pie and should be giving him heavy dose of major league at bats. Why? It’s like a golf swing. If I keep slicing my tee shots into the trees all the time then obviously I have a flaw in my driving approach and swing. Throwing me out there for another 18 holes without fundamentally addressing the problem with my swing is dumb.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Felix Pie is a reclamation project. His hitting approach obviously worked well enough at the minor league level, where it can be assumed his raw athletic ability was enough to compensate against a far inferior brand of pitching versus the majors. I’m quite confident that if you sat down with Pie he would say the same thing. I’ll bet the ranch he understands the imperative to rework his hitting approach and gain mastery of it before he should be granted another big league trial.
"It is never too early to start beefing up your obituary."
Good luck to him and to Colvin...
on fixing their awful hitting approaches then. Hopefully they succeed in overhauling their approaches.
Or maybe you’re just wrong. Either way, good luck to both players in their development on the way to (hopefully) great major league success.
Thanks for sharing, Charlie Brown.
I wish you’d told us this before.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
no, Blue Mike. You are wrong.
If Felix Pie needs to learn to hit MLB pitching, he has to face MLB pitching. You consistently talk about Rich Hill and other pitchers being in AAA as being bad pitchers. How, them, does Pie get BETTER FACING THEM?
Answer: He doesn’t.
Furthermore, your guy with “the Catch” and “the Ability” doesn’t have “the Bat” or “the Average” or “the Speed”. He makes easy catches look hard; not on purpose, but because he’s 37 years old and should have RETIRED. When comparing Pie and Edmonds, you have the same bat, but Pie is a better fielder. Wrong answer number two.
What I don’t understand is why ANYONE thinks that you have any ability to be RIGHT about baseball and the Cubs. Because after throwing Pie under the bus and promoting Jimmy (can’t-hit-the) Baseball, you then move on to RICH FREAKING HARDEN—IE, Mark Prior the Second!
You tell us to wake up and smell the coffee. Would that you were a bad dream.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 23, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions
There is a difference...
...between needing to change your swing (because it is fundementally flawed) and just getting AB’s to gain confidence at the ML level.
If Pie’s issue was just confidence, I would have given him more time to work it out at the ML level. But, his issue is a flawed swing, and the pressure and expectations that go along with ML games, don’t fit the right environment for making those changes.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
It MAY be a flawed swing...
or, it may be that Piniella just jumped to a conclusion based on a kid who hadn’t yet found his timing and confidence.
by SouthernCub on May 23, 2008 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
I think the kid...
...leads the league in being sawed off and breaking bats. That’s because he doesn’t go directly to the ball and he jams himself quite a bit. That is what he needs to fix if he wants to hit at this level.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I don't agree.
Sorry.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 23, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
No need to be sorry...
...stick with what you believe.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
That's possible...
...but only if Pie would have produced if they gave him the time instead of Edmonds. And, that’s something we can only speculate on because no one knows (for sure) whether Pie would have done anything.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Pie was already outproducing
Edmonds on the season and was outproducing Reed over the 10 games previous to his being sent down. Plus Pie is better defensive CF than either Edmonds (at this point in his career, mind you) or Johnson.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Honestly, it's pointless to debate this...
MPH73 feels that Pie needs to shorten his swing to be successful, and feels that he needed to go down. As such, it’s irrelevant whether Johnson or Edmonds stink. The demotion was a given either way.
Others feel that maybe Pie just needed playing time to get his timing and confidence, and thus it was foolish to send him down so fast. There’s no way we’ll know which is correct, because you can’t have two identical versions of Pie to test the hypothesis.
Both sides are going to continue to think they are correct. The only thing that we can do is hope that either Edmonds suddenly finds his 2006 self and/or Pie figures it out and can produce next time he gets a chance (whether that is this year or next year).
Check out the numbers below.
Indiana Jones couldn’t locate Edmonds’ 2004-2006 form. He’s toast and it’s a move that should never have been made.
That said, I agree that both camps are pretty much talking past one another at this point.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
I'm on your side...
I don’t think signing Edmonds made sense, either. But that’s because I agree with you that Pie needed to get more playing time to get his timing against MLB pitching and to get his confidence.
What I’m trying to say is that this comes down to a philosophical difference regarding Pie’s development. If you think he absolutely needed to go back to AAA to fix his swing (like MPH73 and BlueMike), then Edmonds is irrelevant. Given that Pie was gone, taking a chance on Edmonds is a no-cost move.
So given that they think Pie had to be sent down regardless, presenting facts as to why Pie was doing better than Edmonds is irrelevant from their perspective. Sure, it hasn’t worked out so far with Edmonds (and probably won’t), but from their perspective it didn’t hurt anything.
Agreed.
Just to be clear, in my reply to MPH 73, I was referencing this comment, that he made:
That’s possible….but only if Pie would have produced if they gave him the time instead of Edmonds
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
or
we could clone Pie. Then we could call one Apple and one Cherry.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on May 23, 2008 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Numbers
Felix Pie, in 63 AB’s this season: .222/.286/.286
Jim Edmonds, in 90 SD AB’s: .178/.265/.233
in 15 Cub AB’s: .133/.188/.133
In 105 SD/Cub AB’s: .171/.254/.219
Edmonds’ OPS+ on a Cub uniform is -15. MINUS FIFTEEN. I’m pretty sure we can assume that Pie could have at least managed a minus-fourteen. This was a dumb move. It needs to be rectified immediately, if not sooner.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Wow
This is what’s frustrating about the Jim Edmonds situation is that we can’t seem to talk about it without coming back to Felix Pie. But Edmonds isn’t the guy who prejudged Pie. Edmonds is only the guy they brought in when Lou won the organizational battle about whether or not to play Pie. We shouldn’t dump Edmonds just because we want Pie. Pie’s not coming back. Lou won that war. And the scary thing is that as bad as Edmonds is, he’s at least free. We may yet pay by trade for someone just as bad as Edmonds.
Anyway, I’m responding to cwyers way up above – aren’t the things like bat speed which don’t take long to see the very things the advance scouts would have noticed and marked down? Didn’t we get to hear from their reports (and from Maddux) that they hought Edmonds was turning things around? Isn’t it possible that he was turning things around and not playing for a week hurt his timing? Now , if there are things the scouts are seeing that say he’s done, that’s fine, cut him loose; I’m just surprised that we might be able to see those now in 5 games but the advance scouts didn’t see them.
Otherwise, assuming that my only other immediate options are Fontenot/Hoffpaiur, I’d just as soon let Edmonds play for at least two more weeks.
last
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
Not.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on May 23, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
last
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
So close.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on May 23, 2008 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
sorry, i've been out of town for a few days and had
to catch up on some Cub blogging. Plz forgive lol
I'm kind of a big deal
by chi-townbleacherbum on May 23, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Sigh...my bid for lastness is hopeless.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
Indeed.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Jimmy Ballgame is
worthless as a starter. And when he sits on the bench when facing a LHP, he is equally worthless coming off the bench. How is Hollywood going to throw out a tagging runner at home if he has to spend 15 seconds getting himself back on his feet after he layed out for a routine flyball in the gap? Offensively, we will be fine with or without either Pie or Edmonds. Therefore, play the person who brings more tools to the shed. Hence, Pie.
I'm kind of a big deal
by chi-townbleacherbum on May 23, 2008 12:51 PM CDT reply actions
You guys are wierd
and this wont (IM) LAST
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
It could....
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
FREE TIBET!
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
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