The Case For Greg Maddux
The San Diego Padres, who came excruciatingly close to making the playoffs last year (and who are still waiting for Matt Holliday to touch the plate), lie in ruins this morning.
Their #1 starter and one of the best in the game, Jake Peavy, is on the DL with elbow trouble, and we are all very familiar with what elbow trouble can do to your ace pitcher. Their #2 starter, Chris Young, went on the DL yesterday after getting hit in the face by an Albert Pujols line drive; Pujols then added both insult and another injury to injury by accidentally hooking the ankle of Padres catcher Josh Bard when subsequently scoring.
With Bard, Young and Peavy on the DL, San Diego has two rookie catchers on the roster and their #2 starter is now... drum roll... Shawn Estes. The Padres have the worst record in the major leagues at 18-31 and are already eleven games out of first place.
I would think that this would put the Padres into "sell" mode, if not right away, then certainly by the time the non-waiver trading deadline hits on July 31. This essay is going to make the case for the Cubs to acquire Greg Maddux, who has hinted this will be his last season, to end his career, perhaps in the ultimate triumph, with the team he began with and in front of the fans who love him best. Warning! This is going to be mostly based on sentiment, not statistics, so numbers people, hold your fire.
I exchanged several emails yesterday with my friend and BCB's #1 Maddux fan, Jessica, who at last admitted (after saying "No way" to me for ages) that it's possible that the Cubs might do exactly this. She sent me this quote, taken from this Barry Rozner column written after Maddux' recent appearance in Wrigley Field, which we all thought at the time might be his last:
"I'm not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux," said Cubs GM Jim Hendry. "As good a pitcher as he is, maybe the best ever, he's a better person. I was really hoping today he'd get a no-decision and we'd win the game."
Hendry did Maddux a favor in 2006 by sending him to a playoff contender, the Dodgers (in fact, players across baseball ought to love Hendry. He sent five players from that miserable Cub team -- Maddux, Phil Nevin, Todd Walker, Scott Williamson and yes, Neifi Perez -- to teams that wound up in the 2006 postseason), and Maddux responded to the stepped-up competition. He was 9-11, 4.69 with the execrable 2006 Cubs; with the Dodgers, he went 6-3, 3.30 and nearly threw a no-hitter against the Giants.
This is the nature of Greg Maddux. At this stage of his career, 42 years old and with a fastball that doesn't creak past about 84 MPH, he gets by on guile and knowledge and experience and steps up his game to the level of competition and the situation. The 2006 Dodgers got swept out of the NLDS by the Mets (and Maddux got hit pretty hard in game three), but there is no doubt that Maddux helped them get there, not only with his pitching, but with his mere presence on the bench. The story is told that Brad Penny let Maddux call all his pitches from the bench during one of Penny's late-season starts, and Penny wound up throwing seven shutout innings. That was, incidentally, against the Cubs on September 13, 2006.
So why Maddux? Well, let's take a look at a few numbers, at least. Maddux has made ten starts this season and is 3-4 (not bad on an 18-31 team) with a 3.94 ERA, which would if carried for a full season be his lowest since 2003. Yes, I am well aware that his home/road splits are pretty bad (1-0, 1.88 at home; 2-4, 5.35 away from spacious Petco). But let's compare this, shall we, to the Cubs' fifth starter, the three-headed "monster" of Rich Hill, Jon Lieber and Sean Gallagher (for the purposes of this discussion, we assume that the Cubs' first four are Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly, Ryan Dempster and Jason Marquis).
Hillliebergallagher have combined for nine starts. In those starts they have thrown 40.2 innings, allowed 42 hits, 26 earned runs, walked 26 and struck out 31. That's a 1.67 WHIP and a 5.75 ERA.
Now how could Maddux be worse than that?
This is a short-term fix, two months, maybe three. It's not going to retard the development of Gallagher or Sean Marshall, since it's likely Maddux will retire after this year. And Marshall said many times during 2006 that he soaked up a lot of knowledge sitting next to Maddux on the Cubs' bench. It certainly couldn't hurt having a future Hall of Famer on the bench, sharing his knowledge with this Cubs team, and I believe he could also be a contributing force, once he got off a losing team and on to a contender. Also, remember that the Cubs play the bulk of their September games on the road, so the home/road splits Maddux has had (and they could be an aberration, as he had a 3.59 ERA at Petco and 4.65 on the road in 2007, not so extreme a split) might actually work in the Cubs' favor late in the year, playing fewer games in Wrigley Field. There's no doubt that he will become available, later if not sooner, and Jessica agrees with me that the Cubs wouldn't have to do much more than take the remains of his contract and give the Padres a "face-saving prospect", as she put it.
This is also about sentiment, I freely admit, and making things "right". When Maddux returned to the Cubs in 2004, it was clearly with the intention of finishing his career with the team he started with, in front of the fans who love him perhaps more than any pitcher in post-World War II team history other than Fergie Jenkins. There's no greater evidence of that than the two loving ovations he has received in the last three years -- first, on July 29, 2006, when he threw six solid innings against the Cardinals and won his last Cub appearance before he was sent to the Dodgers, and the other one just a week ago, when he left the field after Cub hitters battered him pretty good. I don't think I've ever seen such a cheer given to a visiting player.
We love Greg Maddux, and we need Greg Maddux. He may not be the best available pitcher. But he is the right available pitcher. Go get him, Jim Hendry. Bring him home. In this season where everything seems possible, Greg Maddux should be part of it.
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Memorial Day Tickets (Singles) Available
Al, the ticket exchange for May 26-June 1 is closed for comments.
Single seats were available for Monday’s game as of this morning on cubs.com. Best seat available was in Section 8, Row 4 for $80. Several sections available, but again, only single seats.
I’ll have to think about this Maddux idea. We’d have to trade Marquis, IMHO.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
by zambranofan on May 23, 2008 9:40 AM CDT 0 recs
I'll reopen the comments so you can post this there.
In the future, email me if comments get closed on the ticket posts and I’ll reopen them.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 9:43 AM CDT
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Al, speaking of reopening comments
Can you please do this on the “what we do for a living” thread?
Go ahead, Z me.
by tony412 on
May 23, 2008 1:11 PM CDT
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btw, I did try to email
but did not go through from my work outlook.
Go ahead, Z me.
by tony412 on
May 23, 2008 1:11 PM CDT
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Will do.
Thanks.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 1:12 PM CDT
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I disagree on Maddux...
While Lieber, Hill, and Gallagher haven’t done all that well TO THIS POINT, I think they’ll offer us plenty down the stretch (along with Marshall). I don’t see the benefit (aside from sentiment) in trading for Maddux at this point. It’s a lateral move at the major league level, and it will cost us money and prospects.
I still think the team has the expectation that Hill will find his command and be the Hill of last year, which will be better than what Maddux will provide.
by SouthernCub on May 23, 2008 9:43 AM CDT 0 recs
Money, yes...
... although only about half of Maddux’ deal (IIRC, he’s making $10M this year), and as I said, probably no more than a mid-level prospect.
On what basis do you say that Hill, Lieber and Gallagher will offer us “plenty down the stretch”? I haven’t seen evidence of that, except for Lieber in the bullpen.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 9:44 AM CDT
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2007 for Hill for one...
And Lieber’s performance in the bullpen, for two.
Add to that the feeling that Maddux’s hot start is inflated by PETCO, and that’s my rationale.
by SouthernCub on
May 23, 2008 9:46 AM CDT
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Unfortunately...
... Hill did NOT show any of that form this year, and is now on the minor-league DL. I don’t think we’ll see him back anytime soon.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 9:57 AM CDT
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I disagree that he won't be back...
I agree that he hadn’t shown that form TO THIS POINT. However, I disagree that he won’t be back. I think he’ll find his stuff and return. Unless there’s a serious injury, I think he’ll get back on track.
Even if he doesn’t, I can’t believe you’d rule out Lieber, who has all of ONE bad start and has looked great out of the pen. He’s not as good as he’s been so far, but he’s as good as what we’d get out of Maddux moving forward.
So between Lieber and Hill (and Marshall, for that matter, even though he had a bad start yesterday) I think we’ll match what Maddux would give us moving forward.
by SouthernCub on
May 23, 2008 10:01 AM CDT
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It may be that...
... Lieber is more suited to bullpen duty at this stage of his career.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 10:02 AM CDT
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I disagree, but you can say whatever you want...
You have your opinion, I have mine. We’re both speculating.
by SouthernCub on
May 23, 2008 10:03 AM CDT
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Agreed.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 10:05 AM CDT
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I agree that Maddux
would be great to have back in a Cubs uniform. He may not be the best pitcher out there, but he does maintain pretty good command which is something some of our starters struggle with. Maybe the Pads would give us Maddux and if we threw a little more money their way, maybe they would take Edmonds back? LOL.
by adam316 on
May 23, 2008 11:13 AM CDT
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Maddux would be a great pick-up
for his intangibles alone. As was already noted, he earns his money just by sitting on the bench and helping out the other pitchers.
And anybody who thinks Rich Hill is going to suddenly turn into a good pitcher down the stretch, hasn’t been paying attention to the reports out of Des Moines. This guy seems to be having some serious head problems and those things never seem to correct easily. I’m not expecting anything out of Hill.
by bluekoolaide on
May 23, 2008 11:33 AM CDT
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'stage of his career'
I hope this isn’t determined by age…that would mean Maddux is extremely more suited for bullpen duty.
by gx4 on
May 23, 2008 12:25 PM CDT
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Yes, by all means!
I’d be for this in a heartbeat. And next year, he can stay in a Cubs uniform, and be the new pitching coach.
Having him on the bench now between starts would be like having a second pitching coach along anyway, wouldn’t it?
by MN exile on May 23, 2008 9:43 AM CDT 0 recs
Yeah, IMO the question is whether the pitching staff would listen.
by jking79 on
May 23, 2008 9:50 AM CDT
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I'd think they would.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 9:57 AM CDT
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oh, hell yes.
He’s probably the smartest pitcher in the game.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on
May 23, 2008 10:54 AM CDT
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Maddux as the #5?
Interesting story
I agree that he’ll be alot more stable then the marry-go-round of #5’s we have going now. And also true about the leadership he’ll bring to the young guys on the team so he certainly does not hurt in that department.
My concern however is Maddux post season numbers are not what we’d call “hall of fame” worthy, but again I see the idea of adding Maddux as great situation that certainly is something we could do.
The question is though, what would it take to land him?
Would it take sending a guy like Matt Murton to the Padres?
"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager
by Galvan316 on May 23, 2008 9:44 AM CDT 0 recs
Even if it did, do it.
Murton has no future with the Cubs.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 9:45 AM CDT
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Murton
If that was the case to get Mad Dog back to Wrigley then absolutely.
Al, excellent post on this gloomy Friday
"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager
by Galvan316 on
May 23, 2008 9:46 AM CDT
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Amen
I agree all the way, as mentioned below by crw89, this really could be a win-win situation. Murton gets to play every day, and we get a solid #5, which represents one of the most sensible and perhaps cost effective pitching pick-ups we could make. And you hit the nail on the head, it even beneifits our young guys, by virtue of the wisdom Maddux brings.
by StevenABQ on
May 23, 2008 10:04 AM CDT
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I wouldn't...
I’m all for trading Murton, but I’d do it for more than what I believe to be AT BEST a lateral move on the field.
by SouthernCub on
May 23, 2008 10:06 AM CDT
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I don't think Murton has much more value than that right now, do you?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 10:06 AM CDT
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He can have different value...
Considering that I think we can do as well or better with Hill/Lieber/Marshall, I don’t think trading Murton for Maddux makes sense.
I’m not saying he can get a better player than Maddux. I’m saying that I’d rather hold on to him and use him for something that provides us more value.
by SouthernCub on
May 23, 2008 10:08 AM CDT
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I see what you mean...
... I just disagree that Murton HAS more value than that.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 10:09 AM CDT
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I didn't say he has more value than Maddux...
in fact, I said specifically that I was NOT saying that. I am saying that a lesser player than Maddux who plays a different role may be more valuable to us.
Furthermore, Murton could also be kept for a package that is more valuable than Maddux.
by SouthernCub on
May 23, 2008 10:11 AM CDT
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I see your point.
It also isn’t like Murton is tearing up Triple-A right now. I guess what I’m saying is that Murton’s trade value is probably lower than it’s been since the Cubs acquired him in 2004.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 10:12 AM CDT
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That's kind of irrelevant to my point...
By the way, Murton isn’t actually doing badly in AAA right now. He has a .339/.438/.418 line, and in May the line is .348/.423/.478. That’s pretty good.
But regardless of his value and how he’s doing in AAA, I don’t think it’s worth it to trade him for a guy who I believe isn’t going to be an upgrade over Hill/Lieber/Marshall.
If we can get the same production from one (or more) of those three without trading Murton, why trade him?
by SouthernCub on
May 23, 2008 10:16 AM CDT
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Good point
Very true, and I guess thats why Hendry makes the big bucks to sort out all of those hypotheticals. But, there is a point where you have to look at the current situation and decide if its worth making a move. Do you have any other thoughts on how we might be able to accomplish this without losing Murton?
by StevenABQ on
May 23, 2008 10:13 AM CDT
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Well, I'm not in favor of getting Maddux...
so I’m probably not the person to ask. But there are players in A or AA that could be discussed as well, I imagine.
by SouthernCub on
May 23, 2008 10:18 AM CDT
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I see
I agree with you, I do think there is a great amount of similar value in Lieber/Hill/Gallagher, but I think alot of that has to do with Hill. And quite frankly, I’m even a little embarassed to say it, I’m afraid that Hill is in a downward spiral funk. Thats not to say he can’y pull out of it, but I’m not sure if he’s completely hit the bottom yet. Which is a little scary since we could use him. It may be till after the break before we see him, if even then.
by StevenABQ on
May 23, 2008 10:23 AM CDT
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Lieber is laying...
...in the weeds. I still think he is going to get a shot at starting again, and will contribute better than most think.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
May 23, 2008 10:20 AM CDT
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I totally agree.
Lieber had one bad start. Otherwise, he’s pitched well.
by DGU on
May 23, 2008 10:21 AM CDT
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I think Lieber and Hill will be there down the stretch...
and we’ll find something to do with Marquis.
by SouthernCub on
May 23, 2008 10:21 AM CDT
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I really hope...
...Hill gets it together. They could use another lefty in the rotation, but I really worry about that guy staying focused.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
May 23, 2008 10:24 AM CDT
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Agreed...
I think Piniella wants to get another lefty into the rotation. So it’s a race between Hill and Marshall. I think Piniella wants Hill to be the guy (because he has a higher ceiling) but Marshall is less of a headcase.
I agree it’s no guarantee that Hill will bounce back. But I think it will happen. And I hope it will happen.
by SouthernCub on
May 23, 2008 10:27 AM CDT
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I think we see
Marshall start before we see Hill start.
2008: The year we put it all together.
by drewishdrewid on
May 23, 2008 10:55 AM CDT
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Almost certainly....
Since Marshall is almost completely stretched out and Hill is on the DL, there’s little reason to believe that Hill would beat Marshall back up to the rotation.
by SouthernCub on
May 23, 2008 11:13 AM CDT
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Jamie Moyer?
Since we’re advocating bringing prodigal sons back home?
by SecondSon on
May 23, 2008 10:56 AM CDT
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Oh, no.
Moyer should have retired two years ago.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 12:24 PM CDT
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Moyer
Had a good game a couple days ago….Not sure how his year is going so far, but I don’t think it’s too bad..
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
by Bump Bailey on
May 23, 2008 12:27 PM CDT
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4-3, 4.37, 75 hits allowed in 55 innings.
Maddux’ year is better.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 12:34 PM CDT
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Ummmm....
55 IP, 75 H, 7 HR, 26 K, 14 BB, 4.37 ERA, 1.60 WHIP.
Do not want. He’s not really an improvment over Marquis/Lieber/Marshall/Hill/Gallagher and he’d turn into a batting tee at Wrigley when the weather heats up.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on
May 23, 2008 12:34 PM CDT
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In that case, go get him, Jim!
I could use some exercise out on Waveland… ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on
May 23, 2008 1:04 PM CDT
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But if the Cubs have good pitching and win...
you can be excercising through October!
by aldimond on
May 23, 2008 9:05 PM CDT
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That IS the question, I am all for it, but what will it cost?
Felix Pie must play everyday!
by JB 23 on
May 23, 2008 9:45 AM CDT
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I'm all for it.
I admit to being one of those sentimental baseball fans, but I really don’t see a downside to making this move. I love Maddux, and I think he’d be a good fit for that five spot.
If another, “better,” pitcher come available at the dead line Hendry could still go get him.
This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
by HectorVillanueva on May 23, 2008 9:44 AM CDT 0 recs
Sentimental too
I would llove to see Maddux finish with us, and be brilliant. Not sure if that can happen but what a story that would be. The downside is taxing our bullpen. Maddux can only go 5-6 innings which means our bullpen will be counted on heavily every 5th day. If we get to the bull pen with a lead, that’s worth it.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
by mrcubsfan on
May 23, 2008 11:26 AM CDT
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Too funny
I just posted a picture of Holliday’s reverse angle plate slide from last year in Varsho’s off day fun thread and sure enough first thing I read in this post is about that play…
"What a great call! Your doing a fantastic job, but people expect me to come out here and be upset. So I'm gonna kick some dirt, you understand?" - Lou Pinella
by Lou In Blue on May 23, 2008 9:44 AM CDT 0 recs
Update, 15 minutes later.
The Padres are still waiting.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 9:45 AM CDT
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True
but don’t tell that to anyone here [Denver]. I was at the game and they wouldn’t even show the replay after the game in the stadium.
"What a great call! Your doing a fantastic job, but people expect me to come out here and be upset. So I'm gonna kick some dirt, you understand?" - Lou Pinella
by Lou In Blue on
May 23, 2008 9:47 AM CDT
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Gee, what a surprise.
Serves the Rockies right that they got swept out of the WS and are sucking so far this year.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 9:58 AM CDT
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Whoa...
Little angry? Still think it was good for baseball to have a small market team make the WS. A nice change from the typical WS crap we’ve seen in the past.
"What a great call! Your doing a fantastic job, but people expect me to come out here and be upset. So I'm gonna kick some dirt, you understand?" - Lou Pinella
by Lou In Blue on
May 23, 2008 10:06 AM CDT
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LOL
OK, OK. True, I suppose. The Rockies’ run was a nice feel-good story, I admit.
Just wish they would have legitimately won that tiebreaker game.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 10:07 AM CDT
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and made it easier for you to return tickets?
Just saying . . .
:)
by Shanghai Badger on
May 23, 2008 10:08 AM CDT
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LMAO
Well, that too. ;)
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 10:08 AM CDT
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Didn't they get hosed on a call earlier in that game?
And regardless, even if they didn’t, they certainly didn’t lose the game.
by SouthernCub on
May 23, 2008 10:09 AM CDT
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I know and....
the rockies are waiting for Michael Barrett to pick up the ball and actually tag him which never happened…..
All things great in 2008!!
by By Santo's Grace on
May 23, 2008 12:41 PM CDT
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Meanwhile, the Padres are waiting for Michael Barrett to hit a home run.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
by dat cubfan daver on
May 23, 2008 12:47 PM CDT
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lol...
true that
All things great in 2008!!
by By Santo's Grace on
May 23, 2008 12:48 PM CDT
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Great Commercial Yesterday
On FSN Rocky Mountains. Clint Hurdle is sitting in the clubhouse with a jelly donut on a plate, when Matt Holliday walks by. Hurdle asks, “Holliday, did you touch the plate?” Holliday just stands there, hemming and hawing….
Comedy gold.
by SecondSon on
May 23, 2008 10:58 AM CDT
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Correction
Great commercial. Hurdle asks him “did you touch this?” Then asks the guys if they saw him touch the Jelly dougnut. They all say “yes” and Matt finally says “Yeah I touched it, so what!” Takes a bite of the doughnut getting jelly on his chin (looking like the scab he had after he slid face first into the plate).
"What a great call! Your doing a fantastic job, but people expect me to come out here and be upset. So I'm gonna kick some dirt, you understand?" - Lou Pinella
by Lou In Blue on
May 23, 2008 11:01 AM CDT
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Al
You should consider making this a poll question on the front page,
It be really interesting to see the stats and what the people think.
"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager
by Galvan316 on May 23, 2008 9:47 AM CDT 0 recs
I'll do that.
Check the main page poll question in a few minutes.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 9:58 AM CDT
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Update.
Poll is posted.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
May 23, 2008 10:01 AM CDT
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Technical Drivel
Would love to see Maddux back as a starter this season, but couldn’t vote yes to “go all out.” Murton yes, The Hoff, yes. All out, no.
That said, great post and until last place teams start putting pitchers like Cabrera, Bedard, or significant younger talent on the blocks, Maddux is a solid back of rotation guy.
by N Oakley on
May 23, 2008 11:57 AM CDT
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