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Indefensible

Mike Fontenot, your plane may be leaving for Des Moines soon.

Last night's 5-3 Cub loss to the Reds wasn't all Fontenot's fault.

Well, wait. Yes, it pretty much was. Fontenot's error on what would likely have been an inning-ending DP ball (yes, I know you can't assume a DP, but a major league 2B has to make that play) opened up the first inning for the Reds to score three unearned runs.

And Fontenot's ill-advised dash to home with the bases loaded and one out in the 9th, on a Francisco Cordero wild pitch that didn't squirt too far away from Paul Bako, probably cost the Cubs at least one run and maybe a chance to tie the game. Incidentally, just like the replay of a play in Toronto on Sunday showed that the White Sox got jobbed on an obvious tag in the infield, replays appeared to show that plate umpire Tim Welke was blocked from seeing Fontenot's foot possibly getting in under Cordero just before Cordero tagged Fontenot; he may very well have been safe.

Still, as Fontenot himself admitted after the game, it wasn't a very good decision.

There was another error made by Mark DeRosa, with two out in the third inning, that would have ended the inning had the play been made. Adam Dunn, the next hitter, nearly hit a ball into Kentucky for a two-run HR that wound up being the difference in the score.

All of this ruined what was actually a fairly-well pitched game by Ryan Dempster -- who struck out seven, walked one, allowed only four hits and actually lowered his ERA to 2.72.

The bottom line is this: Fontenot, for all his grit and hustle, makes too many mistakes to be an everyday player, especially when a hitter as hot as Ronny Cedeno is right now on the bench. What Lou has to do is either get DeRosa back to his normal position at 2B when Aramis Ramirez returns (and man, have the Cubs missed A-Ram the last two days), or get Cedeno in at SS and move Ryan Theriot to 2B, a position he is better suited for.

Let's not fail to give Felix Pie credit for a sensational catch he made, stealing a HR from Ken Griffey Jr. in the fifth inning. It's the second great catch made by a Cub outfielder in the last two weeks -- both of which, including the Reed Johnson diving grab in Washington, came in games the Cubs lost 5-3.

Good idea: Lou says he's going to skip Jason Marquis' turn on the off day Thursday and go with his three best pitchers -- Ted Lilly, Carlos Zambrano and Dempster -- against the Diamondbacks this weekend.

Bad idea: Lou says the Cubs might send Felix Pie to Iowa when Scott Eyre returns, going with 13 pitchers.

I cannot emphasize this enough:

This is a really bad idea.

You need only look at the boxscore from this ridiculous 12-inning Brewers/Cardinals game from April 22 -- only two weeks ago -- to see how bad an idea a 13 or 14 man pitching staff is. Three different pitchers pinch-hit (none of them did anything useful), and because of an injury and a short-handed bench, Tony LaRussa had to play Albert Pujols at second base.

Just imagine a scenario where Derrek Lee had to play second base and Prince Fielder barreled into him to break up a double play. A 13-man pitching staff is unnecessary and makes your bench too shorthanded to be of any use; I'm not even convinced a 12-man staff is necessary.

In any case, with Z on the mound tonight, the Cubs can stop this baby two-game losing streak before it gets out of hand.

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Comments

Display:

You can say it is a Bad Idea -

But come up with a suggestion. Who should be sent down instead?

Hey lets give props to Sammy Sosa Jr (Soriano), last night he fell behind 0-2 AGAIN, and actually walked!!!! Congrats!

"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"

by HIGGY on May 6, 2008 8:37 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, yes, but...

... I wouldn’t send Fontenot down for Eyre, because that would accomplish the same thing.

Send Gallagher down when Eyre comes back.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 6, 2008 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldnt mind that...

But if Gallagher continues to throw this well it is going to be tough to send him down.

"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"

by HIGGY on May 6, 2008 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

True.

Maybe Sean Marshall needs to go down to stretch out to start.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 6, 2008 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like

that one best. I’d hate to see Gallagher go down so soon. Let’s wait and see if he can be the one with the magical arm this year. Seems there’s always a couple rookies that catch fire and really help out teams headed for the playoffs. I’m looking for ours (w/ the exception of Soto, who we know rocks).

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Send Fontenot down....

let Ronny have some more playing time, even though I had totally given up on him before this season he’s looking like the prospect we all heard about. He’s showing great plate presence and he’s doing his job every day. I also like how he doesn’t press at the plate, not trying to hit home runs and just hitting for contact.

"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will

by Santo4HOFASAP on May 6, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Every time I see Lou run Fontenot out there...

I have flashbacks to Dusty’s love affair with Neifi Perez and life is WAY too short for that.

I wish I could understand what Lou’s seeing in this guy that basically no one else is.
Also, I know it’s pretty hard to do with Ramirez out but DeRosa needs a day off. Badly.

by bluekoolaide on May 6, 2008 8:38 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Cedeno

has a really strong arm, why not slot him at third base for a few games while ARam is recovering. I really agree though, our best defensive alignment would include putting Cedeno at short and either Dero or Theriot at second.

Fontenot should be sent down instead of Pie.

"Very adroit in the outfield." - Lou, on Dome

by gwood on May 6, 2008 8:38 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That throw he made...

Last night in the 8th i think was unreal. Perfect strike on a tough ball down the line.

"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"

by HIGGY on May 6, 2008 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

And for those keeping score at home:

Ryan Theriot and Mike Fontenot, COMBINED, in 176 AB: 20 RBI

Ronny Cedeno, by himself, in 47 AB: 16 RBI

It’s almost ludicrous at this point for Fontenot or Theriot to be taking PT away from Cedeno. The only reason there ever really was was this stuff about Ronny being dumb, especially on the basepaths. After the craptacular baserunning we’ve seen out of Fontenot and Theriot the past couple days, coupled with shoddy defense by both of them, there is simply no reason for either of them to be starting over Cedeno.

Start him at 2nd while Rammy’s out, then shift him to SS.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don't think

sitting Theriot is a very good idea, at least at this point. He’s hitting well, and you can’t judge his RBI total harshly, he’s been batting 2nd all year with virtually no one leading off in front of him. I agree with the Font though. He needs to make way for Cedeno. I’d like to see Ronny as SS and Theriot at 2B for a few games. Give DeRosa a couple at 3B, a couple off, and, as much as I’d love to see it though it definitely won’t happen, a start or two in LF and give Soriano a day or two (or a week down in AAA- yeah, I know, dream on…).

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't mind Theriot at 2B, either.

I just think you’ve got to play Ronny everyday. He’s not doing you any good sitting, and he can’t really do any worse than Fontenot.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,

but what do you do with DeRo? I’d rather have Theriot come off the bench to occasionally rest Ronny and DeRo.

"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball"

by Bump Bailey on May 6, 2008 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could do that,

but DeRo is so great at being the SuperUtilityMan that I think he should stay in that role. He can still play 5 games/week if he subbed for 2B, 3B, LF/RF, etc.

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd like to see that only while Rammy's out.

Once he’s back, bench Theriot and play Ronny at SS and Derosa at 2B

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

umpires

were flat out horrible last night. i understand a mistake every now and then but for christ’s sake they have got to be held accountable. HP ump was calling strikes literaly 8-9 inches off the plate.

Go Cubbies Go!!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on May 6, 2008 8:45 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Listening to the game on XM

the Reds announcers admitted the ump blew the call at home. That being said, where was the third base coach? Since I wasn’t watching, did he tell him to go or did FOnty take it upon himself to try and be a hereo. It would have been nice to have that run walked in with the next batter.

by sdurst on May 6, 2008 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My impression was he acted on his own.

Fontenot was pretty far off the bag when the pitch was thrown, and he just went for it. FWIW, I watched the replay several times, and I’m pretty sure he was safe. Like Dome’s slide into home the other day, Fontenot’s foot hit the plate well before the tag came down on his back leg. Doesn’t matter, of course—if the throw beats him, he’s gonna get called out 9 out of 10 times.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just like Fukudome last week

n/t

"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse

by BigJohnAZ on May 6, 2008 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was eerily similar.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He did it on his own.

He admitted as much after the game. He also admitted it was a poor decision, which it was. He did look safe, but as daver pointed out, if the throw beats you, you’re going to be called out.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He may have been safe...

...but it was a very bad decision, if he knew it was a cake walk to score on that play. When you are down by 2 runs, his run didn’t mean much and it was a bad bad decision.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 6, 2008 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was a bad decision, and he's admitted as much.

I wonder whether he was trying to redeem himself for making that error early in the game.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Possibly so.

In which case he made a bad day worse.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 6, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mostly agree (somewhat disagree)...

Down by two means his run only brings us to within one. In that sense, it was a bad decision to run.

Conversely, down two with less than two outs and runners on second and first as well, if he scores (and the other runners move up as they did), then a sac fly (or ground out) ties the game, and a base hit gives us the lead.

So it’s not a slam dunk that it’s a bad decision to run. It is for the most part a bad decision, and the fact that he was unsuccessful makes it definitely a bad decision.

by SouthernCub on May 6, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand...

...that if he makes it, the are in real good position, but it is also a big time rally killer if he is called out.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 6, 2008 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...

Which is why in total it was a bad decision. It just wanted a universally bad one.

by SouthernCub on May 6, 2008 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He was wildly inconsistent.

He had a low zone for a while, then a wide zone, a bit of a high zone for about half an inning…it was all over the place, but I don’t think it favored one team over another. Dempster benefited as much as Cueto.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

im confused, I thought for sure after that catch it might have built a little confidence for Pie….earning him some time.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on May 6, 2008 8:45 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

me too....he has been hitting a little better recently as well .375/444 /500 in May

...its pretty clear to me that his defense is well worth his place on the roster. He has made some very tough plays look easy.

Felix Pie must play everyday!

by JB 23 on May 6, 2008 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right

replace the late inning speed guy——switch Theriot and Cedeno and leave Pie out there.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on May 6, 2008 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

most know where i stand on felix...

neeeds to start and play

"I played with one of the best pitchers in history, Greg Maddux," Zambrano said"

by fischisgod on May 6, 2008 8:48 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Giving credit where it is due

Al, Im glad to hear you say what you had to say about Fontenot. We love this team, but it needs to be said that you have to perform at a certain level, and Fontenot did do some boneheaded things last night.

by adam316 on May 6, 2008 8:49 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Like I said...

... I know Lou likes Fontenot. But at a certain point, he’s got to realize Fontenot occasionally plays above his level of competence, and most of the time is not a good major league player.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 6, 2008 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lou loves hitters...

...and I think he still thinks about that good tear Fontenot went on for a month or so last year. He has a good stroke, but I agree, he gets exposed the longer he is on the field.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 6, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

DeRosa

Lost in the glare of Fontenot’s miscues is the fact that DeRosa absolutely, positively needs a day off. His bat speed the last week has been nothing but S…L…O…W and his defense at 3B is merely adequate for short stretches. They may be asking too much out of him at this point and he needs to return to a regular routine at 2B or in the OF and let the 3B idea go somewhere else. Ramirez injury is just killing the offense right now, just as it does every time he is out of the lineup. His presence is needed badly.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. -- Lee Constantine Elia, 1983.

by krummy12 on May 6, 2008 8:51 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

If Lou loves the riot so much put Ronny at 3rd

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on May 6, 2008 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did Lou actually say that?

About Felix… reading the article more closely, it sounds like Gordon Wittenmyer is just speculating it could be Felix to go down. It seems more likely to be Fontenot now.

A 13th pitcher likely would mean a demotion for struggling center fielder Felix Pie to continue work on mechanics changes Piniella and the staff are trying to make with him.

''As long as he doesn't talk World Series, I'm happy.'' Lou Piniella on Ronny Cedeno.

by CubsBullsBears on May 6, 2008 8:51 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Len & Bob were talking about this on the telecast last night.

So I know they are considering it.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 6, 2008 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Last year someone asked how did we grade Lou's first-year performance.

I gave him a B. Good motivator; ho-hum strategist. The reasons keep coming up.

However, on his defense, Lou’s saying he needs 2 lefties in the pen. At least there is a method behind the madness.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 8:52 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

There were many reasons last night was frustrating..

..but one thing that really got me was how bad Cordero looked and that the Cubs didnt capitalize even after the Fonty gaffe.

You could tell he didnt have his best stuff, was struggling with command etc. That was there for the taking at the end. The Reds are a mess, need to take the next two with the DBacks coming in this weekend.

Felix Pie must play everyday!

by JB 23 on May 6, 2008 8:53 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Sending down

Fontenot for yesterday’s error seems hasty. He had 4 rbi two days ago, and was on base 3 more times the next day, so why wouldn’t Lou keep running him out there. His hustle mistake in the 9th, was just that; a hustling mistake. DeRosa’s error was just as costly, while his average has dropped to below .260. Why not play both Mike and Ronny for a day if ARam is still hurt. DeRo is pulling everything, and not producing w/ runners in scoring position. Likewise, DLee has also left too many runners on base for the Cubs to win close games. They are in a bad stretch; hopefully Z can outpitch Harang today, and the worm will turn.

On a sidenote, I listened to the game last night on XM. M. Brenneman and J. Brantley continually questioned Dusty’s handling of the roster, specifically C. Patterson, and the use of the pitching staff. If Baker had problems w/ S. Stone, he really must be souring of the Cinncinatti media. I haven’t ever heard a broadcast team be so critical of their own, during a broadcast.

"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will

by Slakkr on May 6, 2008 8:54 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

Theriot and Fontenot have a hot bat right now. Their base-running mistakes shold be addressed by the coaching staff and the manager. That does not warrant a demotion.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Looks like Fonty's 3 run dinger last week

has given him a week’s worth of playing time.

I still don’t understand why Lou isn’t playing Cedeno. It seems that Ronny has played well enough to be in the lineup. I could see in prior years when he played great in ST and then stunk at the plate or on the bases, but this year he seems a lot better all around. I would think that if he has finally turned the corner, you play him to keep him sharp and confident. It’s almost as if Lou is ignoring him.

I also think sending Pie down is a bad move as well. Most of the team is sucking right now, might as well play hime every day and let him get going at the plate. If Lou has been working with him and it seems like he is coming around, you have to let him play. Why work hard with the kid just to send him down where he tears it up? He needs experience at THIS level, not in AAA.

DeRosa needs a day off, it looks like.

"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse

by BigJohnAZ on May 6, 2008 8:54 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I would play Cedeño to rest De Rosa tonight, with Ramírez unavailable again.

But I would also demote Pie. He needs to play everyday to work on his hitting mechanics.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 8:58 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Or,

you could play Ronny and play Pie, and bench Fontenot and Johnson. Demote Fontenot or one of the pitchers. Remeber, Pie could still be moved, and part of his value is that he has an option left. Use up that option, and you lose part of his value. Moreover, since cooling off at the plate, Johnson really offers nothing more than Pie does. Play Pie or trade him, but don’t sdemote him. It’s rather pointless.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Very very good catch

re: Pie’s option. To send him down would be a miserable mistake.

by DGU on May 6, 2008 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

aside from the catch

Pie had really good AB’s last night. He saw 17 pitches in his 4 plate appearances and this was muddied by a first pitch he swung at and nearly hit out

he went 1-3 with a BB and a warning track fly ball

and he’s really not THAT far from out-producing Reed Johnson on the SEASON (.674 OPS vs. .613 OPS)

Pie’s making progress, I can’t for the life of me figure out why we’d send him down now. For all the Dusty bashing that has gone on at this site, i’m SHOCKED there isn’t more criticism of Lou falling in love with veterans just as much. If a young player doesn’t produce at an ALL STAR LEVEL they’re riding the bench or sent back to the minors. These guys are given zero leash to develop at the big league level

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 9:00 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree with this.

Let Pie stay. Let Pie play. Why send him down to face Triple A pitchers when he’s finally showing some progress against major league ones? And, again, his defense speaks for itself.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hear, hear!

You hit it on the head. Pie is showing improvement and Reed Johnson is looking more and more like a 4th OF.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

ALL OFF SEASON they were looking for a RH platoon with Pie. They found him and forgot about the platoon all of a sudden.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on May 6, 2008 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's see:

Fontenot: 3 hits on Saturday, another one on Sunday (plus a walk), one more hit Monday, for a team that is not hitting right now. No, he should stay.

And I’d send Pie down so he can bat consistently while he works on his mechanics. That’s what the minors are for, not MLB. The only problem is promoting an extra pitcher while you have no substitute OF. (Cedeño is no OF).

That’s why although I understand Lou’s reasoning, I’m with AL: Demoting a bench player to promote a P leaves the bench short.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

why on earth

can’t he work on his mechanics at the big league level? Why can’t he play everyday HERE???

Since April 21st (the day of the PH 3 run HR) Pie is 8-24 with 3 BB’s and 7 K’s, showing a line of .333/.429/.500

I know it’s just 24 AB’s which is an extremely small sample, but he’s taking more pitches during this time frame too. He’s made all the adjustments he’s been asked to and he still rides the pine

The only reason to send down Pie is the same reason Rich Hill was sent down, we have a manager who is incapable of showing any patience with them and its stunting their development.

That, to me, is an idiotic reason to send him down. Someone needs to step in (Hendry i’m looking at you) and demand that Pie play everyday against RH pitching.

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

7 K's in 24 at bats for a contact hitter are too many.

He has to work on that. Do it in the minors where he can play and have 4+ AB everyday.

BTW, there’s no denying that Pie has improved lately, but realistically, no one could hit worse than Pie did at the beginning of the season.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

So could I but I’m not a major leaguer.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ortiz past speaks for him.

Pie has no past record to stand on.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or

Soriano. He’s still terrible.

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Same explanation as Ortiz. Soriano has been successful in the past at this level of play.

He’s not a good leadoff hitter, though, and is poisoning the offense. But that’s a different matter.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Indeed, Judge.

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right.

So when you said “realistically, no one could hit worse than Pie did at the beginning of the season”, what you really meant was “even players with a record of success at this level like David Ortiz and Alfonso Soriano have hit worse than Pie did at the beginning of the season”.

Thanks for the clarification.

by simonuk on May 6, 2008 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Huh?

What does the beginning of the season have to do with right now? Pie is progressing—this is what we wanted. Why cast him down to Iowa? So he can come back to the majors and start all over again?

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pie still has some work to do.

All I said is it’s true the guy has improved since the beginning of the season.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Riiiight...and that's what we all hoped to see. Progress.

It’s not realistic to expect Pie to suddenly flower into Andruw Jones circa ‘05. Sending him down to Iowa will only disrupt the learning process.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

contact hitter?

he’s never been a contact hitter, why are we trying to force this on him now? He struck out in 22% of AB’s at the minor league level. He’s struck out in 29% of AB’s in that 24 AB span.

This is the Corey Patterson scenario all over again where we’re trying to fit a square peg into a round hole instead of appreciating what we have! Pie isn’t going to be an on-base machine speedy leadoff hitter with some pop, that’s NEVER been his game. His game has been a premier defensive CF who hits for good gap power and strikes out a lot. He’s in the mold of Curtis Granderson, and we’re trying to make him Juan Pierre

it’s assinine. He’s NOT a contact hitter. He’s NOT a prototypical leadoff hitter and he’s had A TON of success at EVERY level of professional baseball

why change him now?

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

What the Cubs Have been looking for.....

is a CF like Curtis Granderson for a long time, PIE has the tools and if his swing is shortened and he really is devoted to perfecting his swing to just make contact, we could see some positive changes soon.

"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will

by Santo4HOFASAP on May 6, 2008 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What I don't want is a contact hitter who K's too much.

Pie has to learn to be a contact hitter. That suits his speed and lack of power. There is no time or space in the majors to learn that. If a rookie isn’t ready you send him down until he is, and if you think he’s never going to be ready or is going to take too long, you trade him and get what you need to win now. The Cubs are not a team in a rebuilding phase.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you don't want a contact hitter who K's too much?

really? That’s earth-shattering. Do you also not want a power hitter who doesn’t hit HR’s????

PIE IS NOT A CONTACT HITTER, WHY ARE PEOPLE OBSESSED WITH THE IDEA HE NEEDS TO BE A CONTACT HITTER TO BE A GOOD BASEBALL PLAYER

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

BC.....

in order to use his speed he needs to be on base, and not trying to hit HRs. We have players in the lineup who can do that.

"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will

by Santo4HOFASAP on May 6, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't even know what to say....

the Tigers have other players in their lineup who hit HR’s and they seem to do a fine job of scoring runs with a player at the top of their lineup who K’s a lot and hits for some power

If we as a fanbase are expecting a player to change everything they’ve ever done to get to this level and then have success at doing something they’ve never done… i think we might need to take a look in the mirror

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

....

Ok, he has looked much better in the last few weeks, I would just like for him to swing for avg, more often. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.

"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will

by Santo4HOFASAP on May 6, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"swing for average"

does this imply he’s not trying to get hits when he swings?

if you watch the games you notice his swing has shortened considerably and his pitch recognition has improved considerably as well, as he’s laying off more breaking balls

Pie’s never going to be a good “contact hitter”, he has shown however in the past that he can hit for a good average largely based on his ability to hit for good gap power

He’s making all of the adjustments and improvements people have been asking for when ridiculing him. But the truth is if you want him to become a contact/slap hitter, then you’re asking for him to be a completely different player than he’s been his entire life

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Swing for AVG

I’m not saying that he hasn’t made improvements, he has made strides in the correct direction, but saying that Pie is never going to be a good contact hitter is ridiculous. He’s what like 23 years old? He’s got a lot of baseball left to play in his career and I think he can make a better living by becoming a player that can hit for an AVG like we want him to be by shortening his swing.

"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will

by Santo4HOFASAP on May 6, 2008 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

he hit .300

for his entire minor league career while striking out 22% of the time

he can hit for average while striking out a lot.

Strikeouts are not the end all be all

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok...

Haven’t mentioned Strikeouts this entire time. He’s a young player an increase in Ks is expected or at least for me it is, but the ability to hit for .300 in the majors is what we are looking for.

I like him, he shows good progress so far it’s just a matter of improving his approach at the plate and then we can have a great CF with a great arm, solid D, and one that can take a walk and get hits on a regular basis. I’m willing to wait for PIE to mature in the big leagues unlike some people here, as long as noticeable improvements are being made like he has been making recently.

"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will

by Santo4HOFASAP on May 6, 2008 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah because

we couldn’t use a Curtis Granderson type player in CF…

Granderson’s minor league line: .300/.376/.496 (ages 21-24)
Pie’s minor league line: .300/.355/.469 (ages 17-22)

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 6, 2008 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Consider this, too -

Over the past four days, the Cubs faced four RHP -
Adam Wainwright, Kyle Lohse, Todd Wellemeyer, and Johnny Cueto. Wainwright and Cueto have killer stuff and can strike out anybody. Lohse gets teed off on by LH bats. And Wellemeyer – he’s been pitching well this year, but we remember who Wellemeyer is. If you were going to pick 2 of those 4 to play Pie against, if you would want to help him gain confidence about hitting ML pitching, which of the two would it be? On the other hand, if you wanted to pad his strikeout totals so you could claim he’ll never get it, which two would you pick?

by DGU on May 6, 2008 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

sabotage?

i like where your heads at, i’m cracking up just thinking about this

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My head is going to explode

"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry

by Jayo525 on May 6, 2008 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Considering Pie's defenses...

...and the fact he has had more quality AB’s, I would start him 4-5 games over the next week or so. If he struggles, go ahead and let him regain confidence with his shorter swing at AAA. If he happens to keep improving, let the dude stay and see what happens.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 6, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good idea 2 weeks ago.

It’s too late now. This team cannot afford to extend this losing streak to find out if Pie can hit at this level. Pie should go to AAA to learn what he should have learned there to begin with. He was either promoted too soon or he’s a bust. (And before his offensive numbers at AAA are quoted again, please check his K totals there. It was predictable he would K more often in the majors.)

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

am i missing something

do you strikeouts count as more than one out or something? Why are you so obsessed with strikeouts????

How can the team not afford to let Pie play in CF with his .613 OPS on the season but can afford to play Reed Johnson and his .674 OPS??? Can you explain that one to me?

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because their numbers with RISP favor Johnson, so far:

Johnson: .346 .406 .385 .791
Pie: .143 .208 .286 .494

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

combined

we’re talking about less than 50 ABs

and a difference of 4 runs batted in

4!!!!!!

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This "losing streak" is all of two games.

One thing this team has done well of late is keep itself out of losing streaks. And, again, Pie isn’t likely to “learn” anything new in Triple A. He needs to learn in the Show. Period.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, and 8 of 11.

Which is damn close to a losing streak. Let’s call it a losing stretch, shall we?

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I guess I can't argue with that -- unfortunately enough.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you, Judge.

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree...

...I always said, Pie had to earn a little more playing time, and I think he has shown some signs of improving at the plate. If you give him a handful of games to see if it’s sticking, I don’t see that hurting the club. If he stumbles again, let him work it out at AAA.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 6, 2008 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Pie and Johnson are equals,

Then I think, given his potential to greatly improve, we’ve got to keep running Pie out there. Johnson will continue to provide a solid right handed replacement—though his batting likely will suffer from increased time on the pine pony.

Let the Pie experiment continue!

(Longtime reader, first time poster—Go Cubs!!!)

With Cubs legend Ron Santo...

by PatHughesFan on May 6, 2008 9:09 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree. But so far, they are not equals.

See RISP numbers so far this season:

Johnson: .346 .406 .385 .791
Pie: .143 .208 .286 .494

Pie’s inability to put the ball in play consistently (that is, he K’s too much) explains those numbers.

On the other hand, a good argument to play Pie over Johnson now is that Johnson has struggled and has had a cold bat this past week.

There are good arguments on both sides of the equation. I come on the side that the Cubs are not an instructional team. One month is enough to try to correct somehing. Any extra time needed should be had in the minors.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok

so after all your digging you’ve found a set of numbers that fit your argument, as i noted above the difference in those #’s has resulted in 4 more runs scored for the Cubs in those situations (11 RBI’s for Johnson, 7 for Pie)

so congrats for finding a stat that you think shows a big difference between the two, nevermind its one that combines for less than 1/4 of their overall production

Of course that set of stats is better than any cumulative stats which would suggest the difference is negligible like OPS (.674 vs. .613) or VORP (-0.4 vs. -0.6)

these are JUST taking into account offensive statistics and their TOTAL production is minimally different. If we assume Pie is an ever so slightly better defensive player, then we’re looking at roughly equivalent players

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The numbers seem equal because Johnson is in a slump.

But his swing is better. There are things that I see that cannot be described in numbers. Pie’s horrible swing is one of those. But if he gets hot, play him, sure.

Oh, and project those numbers to a full season and you will see a definite difference.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

so

you’d like to only count Johnson’s hot period and then compare him to Pie?

that sounds like a fair comparison…

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No. I'm saying Pie has to improve to justify playing him regularly.

A good hitter will slump ocassionally. A bad hitter will be in a perennial slump. Again, look up the projections for the full season. They show that difference:

Projected 2008:

Pie: .231 .305 .308 .613
Johnson: .274 .355 .316 .670

Reed Johnson is not the best out there but he has more experience and Pie’s numbers are not better. In fact, they are inferior. Can Pie improve and surpass Johnson? Of course. But he has work to do. Do it in the minors. The Cubs aren’t an instructional team. That’s all I’m saying,.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How can Pie improve on the bench?

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Read again.

I wrote: “Do it in the minors.”

by Fraggin Judge on May 7, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't disagree about Fontenot

He certainly made some bonehead plays but there is a bigger problem. Soriano.

The team has played like crap since it was announced he was coming off the DL. He disrupts the chemistry of the team with his refusal to bat anywhere but leadoff. It is disheartening to see him come to the plate in key situations and know he’s going blow it.

I’m sure I’m in the minority in my viewpoint but something needs to be done about this guy.

by AlabamaCubFan on May 6, 2008 9:10 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I've never

heard him refuse to bat anywhere else. Can you direct me to that quote?

by Rick B on May 6, 2008 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, come now.

I agree with you Alabama. Something needs to be done. He has definitely been a weight around this team’s neck since coming off the DL. Even his game-tying HR the other day wouldn’t have been necessary if he hadn’t looked so completely lost out in LF. And his “refusal” to bat anywhere else has been an implied “no thanks” and a lack of effort or care (at least seemingly) when batting elsewhere.

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Plus that's his history.

Remeber when he sat down rather than play LF for Frank Robinson? If Soriano could adjust then, he can do it again now if he’s taken down the batting order.

And, BTW, it was Lou who repeatedly said Soriano is more comfortable hitting first. I take Lou at his word.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Think again.

The Cubs had already split a series with the Rockies and lost a series to the Nationals before Soriano came back. It’s a little shortsighted to blame their recent losing ways on Soriano, who’s driven in five runs in his first five games back. His OPS has also risen from .494 to .549 since May 1. Not great - but it’s progress. And his history as a player tells us that he’s capable of doing much, much more. Remember, he’s not batting leadoff - he’s batting first.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's driven in 5 in 5,

but how many has he given up with his horrid defensive play since he’s been back? You’re right to point out that our skid began before his return, but he certainly hasn’t been the $136 million savior you’d expect him to be. He swings as if he’s got his eyes closed half the time. It’s painful to watch.

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

everybody slumps.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2008 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Defensive slumps

are not so common.

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Steve Sax

begs to differ.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't say

they didn’t happen.

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know,

I was just kidding you a bit…seeing your post made me think of him getting the yips.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know that.

but it still happens, and he was on the DL.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2008 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know, too

The fact that he just came off the DL certainly has something to do with his subpar bat and defense. But that’s part of my frustration with Sori: couldn’t he have gone down to AAA for a game or two, just to get his feel back or something? It’s been painfully obvious that he’s not ready for major league caliber pitching, and he could see a few more fly balls in the field, too.

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that may have helped. Or it may not have. Hard to say.

It’s water under the bridge now, though.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

a player of his tenure

gets to refuse the AAA start, if it’s even offered.

It may not be smart, and I’m not going to say that he doesn’t have some ego, but he does get to refuse it. Len and Bob were talking about it at that Milwaukee game—it’s usually an attitude of “I can help the team more if I go back NOW.”

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2008 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I know.

Veterans like Sori can choose whether or not to go down to AAA. Lee, Len and Bob had said, even only went down for one game. But it’s been SO PAINFUL to watch Sori play, especially since coming back, that I just wish there was another way. I want to like him but c’mon!

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Precisely. It's a long season and Soriano started out cold last year, too.

And don’t forget—it’s essentially still mid-April for him because he missed two weeks with that injury. I can’t deny that his defensive lapses were ghastly and cringe-inducing. But patience, grasshopper. Don’t believe MDBNIU’s hate/hype.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

what do you suggest?

He has a no trade clause. He has carried this team in the past. And he has NEVER REFUSED TO BAT ANYWHERE LOU PUTS HIM.

He simply bats his best when he’s in the leadoff spot. He’s not putting himself there, LOU is putting him there.

Stop trying to make the guy a prima donna. It’s not working. He’s a struggling ball player who came off the DL just a few days ago. Christ.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2008 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah. I've been harsh on Sori, but I'm glad he's on the roster.

I’d rather see him in the leadoff spot than Theriot or Pie. Anyway, you only bat “leadoff” once a game. After that you just bat your turn. Let’s wait and see what he does this year before we pine and moan.

by zevkalman on May 6, 2008 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather see someone else there.

IMHO, we, Cubs fans, need to stop being resigned to what-is and start to think big. This team has the resources to get the pieces it needs. I won’t resign myself to not putting a really good team out there. If we don’t have a leadoff batter we need to get one. If we have one, we need to play him there. (Fukodome? Maybe; I don’t know for sure.)

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

We, as Cubs fans

have NO influence over the batting order. Lou is the manager. HE sets the batting order. We pay our money to get to SEE THE GAME. That’s it.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

sure.

but you shouldn’t expect things to change based on that criticism.

There is no accountability to the fans save that which the team decides to grant to them. We aren’t constituents.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ahhhh, the infamous “love it or leave it” argument….

"I'd rather win ugly than lose pretty," -- Lou Pinella

by anormal on May 6, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this isn't a democracy.

this is all a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2008 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this a message board

- a place where people go to share facts and opinions.

if this is a problem for you, maybe we should just agree that we love it and you should leave it.

"I'd rather win ugly than lose pretty," -- Lou Pinella

by anormal on May 6, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

facts like “soriano sucks, and fontenot should burn in hell?”

Soriano hits leadoff because THAT’S WHERE LOU PUTS HIM, and none of us - save, perhaps, Al - has ANY influence over that at all. The sooner people understand that, the better.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2008 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

We're criticizing the manager as part of our right to post freely on this board.

Whether any of us influences the manager or not with our criticism is besides the point.

In a democracy like the U.S., criticism about the manager comes with the title. Lou should know that. I don’t want to copy the Cuban style, where any criticism causes your loyalty to be questioned. (See Sports Illustrated from 4/28/2004 to read what happened to Yunel Escobar after his best friend defected to the U.S.A.. And I still remember how the Cubans demanded that any sign against Fidel Castro be removed from the stands during the last World Baseball Classic.)

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

a little perspective, please.

I see posts that call for accountability, and “something has to change”. I just would hope that people could take that step back and recognize that we can call for whatever we want to call for. It ain’t happening.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you honestly think that Al has an impact on the cubs daily lineup? wow.

i have yet to read the “fonenot should burn in hell” comment that you mentioned, but “soriano sux” (or perhaps a less caustic expression of the same thought) is a valid opinion if it is backed up with further explanation of why the poster thinks that.

... i have to admit that it would be nice if Al did have that kind of input!

"I'd rather win ugly than lose pretty," -- Lou Pinella

by anormal on May 6, 2008 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

the only one close to having it, anyway.

He’s a known quantity in the cubs ‘verse.

Read last night’s game thread right after the end of the game. “Fontenot and his filthy mullet” are referenced.

I’m not interested in squashing opinion. I just think people need to have perspective of how they’re not in the loop.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Game threads

are primarily for ledge-jumpers. I’d feel something was wrong if people in those threads weren’t comdemning Fontenot and his “filthy mullet” to hell.

My only question: is there a separate, mullet-hell? Where only the hair goes?

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess you missed

the post in last nights game thread where one person theatened to kill Fontenot.

by sue369 on May 6, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great post Al

I couldn’t agree with you more. I’m still trying to figure out what Lou is doing with Pie…and Fontenot is just a bench player. Why in the hell is he starting? Because of the homerun Saturday? Come on Lou…start Cedeno.

I agree that either Gallagher or Marshall needs to be sent down so we have a starter in waiting (along with Hill). I’d like to see us keep Marshall up in case Eyre isn’t really 100 percent yet and runs into trouble.

P.S. I’m not saying Pie is great, but I think he has more talent than Johnson and is starting to show signs of being better.

by walsh2317 on May 6, 2008 9:11 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That way madness lies......

Al, you’re absolutely right about the idiocy of a 13 pitcher roster. This all relates to the lemming like way all major league managers, Sweet Lou included, have bought into the LaRussa generated notion that relievers should work only one inning at a time. An 11 man staff would be plenty o’pitching, if only managers would let their bullpen pitchers throw 2 or 3 innings at a pop. Their arms will not fall off. Go on retrosheet and look at boxscores from 15-20 years ago. Most games were played with 2 or 3 pitchers per side….or even, most shocking of all, the occasional COMPLETE GAME!

It seems to me to be elementary that managers would want their better relievers throwing 100-110 innings per year, and their suckier relievers fewer innings. Hmmm….play your best players more than you play your lousy players….I think I have stumbled upon a revolutionary insight!

Most of all, the constant parade of pitching changes makes for a less fan friendly game. It’s like an NBA game where the coaches each take 5 timeouts in the last 3 minutes. The games drag on and on. Wonder why a sub 3 hour game is such a rariety? The 12-13 man pitching staff is the chief culprit.

by perseman on May 6, 2008 9:12 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Fontenot should go down.

He is a 4A player. Theriot, if he must start should go to second, although when Aramis gets back I’d like to see Cedeno at short and DeRo at second. Pie should stay and platoon with Johnson.

by Rick B on May 6, 2008 9:14 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

It's time for Jim Hendry to send Lou a message.

Lou’s mismanaging his roster, showing bias against the more talented players in favor of His Boys. He’s asking for the offense to be fixed instead of the defense. He’s allowed his obsession with his determined need of another LH bat to addle his managing mind. Lou’s Lost LH bat is his White Whale. Jim Hendry has to take control of the situation and get Lou right again. Jim has to send a message to Lou.

That message isn’t sent if Fontenot is sent down. The message is sent when Ryan Theriot is sent down.

Now, Theriot doesn’t deserve it. He’s been hitting well. But Cedeno needs to be put at SS and Jim shouldn’t give Lou his Riot back until this roster is put back into order. The roster is in order when Cedeno is at SS and Pie is playing against all RHP, not just the ones who have the better stuff and are more likely to strike you out.

by DGU on May 6, 2008 9:18 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If only Lou remembered

That Felix Pie is a LH batter!

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

completely agree

that Hendry needs to step in and take control here. Buster Olney made mention of this a few weeks back that the Cubs front office was getting frustrated with Pineilla’s handling of the younger players (Pie, specifically)... i wish i had the link.

I was posting basically the same sentiments above when you posted this, without the suggestion of sending down Theriot which I think is a bit hasteful (but hey if thats the only thing that’ll get the point across…)

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Terrible Idea

Sending Theriot down makes zero sense to me. I’d always rather have the better baseball player then another guys just because he is LH hitter. If he wants to send a message then go talk to him like a boss, that would cutting of your noise to spite your face, or whatever that saying is that my mom always use to say.

Lets do it Cubbies

by slocs55 on May 6, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reasoning with someone is what you do when they are able to be reasoned with.

Lou is making moves to block the success of Felix Pie and Ronny Cedeno while simultaneously trying to puff up his boys. I’m assuming Jim Hendry’s talked to Lou about this. Now it’s time to respond to Lou, doing no more than what he’s done himself. This team is not worse off if Ronny Cedeno takes all of Ryan Theriot’s playing time. It’s better off.

by DGU on May 6, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I obviously....

don’t know the dynamics between a manager and GM and I bet that depends on each pair but if Jim should have that control you speak of and is unable to get it, then it is his fault. He shouldn’t have to downgrade the team in order for one of his employees to listen to him.

Lets do it Cubbies

by slocs55 on May 7, 2008 7:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the bright side.

How about that Geo Soto. We might have something very special there.

by Rick B on May 6, 2008 9:22 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Yet another reason Soriano needs to be dropped in the order.

Soto could hit fifth and Soriano sixth, with Fukudome leading off.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 6, 2008 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

Geovany Soto is making me a believer. I think he has shown enough for there to be faith in putting him in the # 5 hole, moving Kosuke up to # 1 or # 2 in tandem with Ryan Theriot or Reed Johnson, and mercifully plunking Soriano in the # 6 hole.

At this stage Piniella has got to stop coddling Soriano and worrying about hurt feelings. Enough is enough of this garbage. And we had better start respecting those St. Louis Cardinals and there ability to blow our doors off in this division if we are not careful.

by MDBNIU on May 6, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whats great about Soto

Is one day you could move him over to first. In say hopefully 7 or 8 years.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on May 6, 2008 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cards

I still don’t believe in the Cardinals.

Lets do it Cubbies

by slocs55 on May 6, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He is definitely a bright side.

Imagine that bright side multiplied by three – because Ronny and Felix can be that good, too.

by DGU on May 6, 2008 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Soto is awesome.

Cedeno might be too. It’d be nice to know for sure.

by Canseco's Roid Party on May 6, 2008 9:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh well

At some level you have got to like and root for Mike Fontenot. But it has never been any secret that he is a bad defensive second baseman. When you put bad defense in the middle infield then invariably it’s going to come back and bite you. The other day Fontenot couldn’t turn the double play, but in that instance it didn’t cost the Cubs. There have been a number of other examples of Fontenot’s less than stellar defensive play.

Fontenot is a lot like Matt Murton. No versatility and defensive ability whatsoever. It’s tough to carry guys like that on a 25 man roster that includes 12 pitchers.

by MDBNIU on May 6, 2008 9:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Me too

Frankly, I don’t understand why Lou Piniella isnt’ playing Ronny Cedeno some at 2nd base. On those days when Mark DeRosa is needed to play elsewhere or gets a day off. Cedeno would surely be huge upgrade defensively over Mike Fontenot.

by MDBNIU on May 6, 2008 9:32 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Ronny Seems to be playing better at this point, and Lou loves the hot hand, I’m shocked he hasn’t been playing more.

"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will

by Santo4HOFASAP on May 6, 2008 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did a quick Google search on "olney" and "pinella"

Didn’t find any mention of Cubs brass frustrated with Lou’s handling of young players, but I found links to:

Olney writing in 2007 that the players were fed up (referencing the team meeting early last year)

Olney writing in 2006 that the Cubs were going to go hard after A-Rod.

What that tells me is, anything he did write, I’ll take with a huge grain of salt.

by Shanghai Badger on May 6, 2008 9:38 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

it was on ESPN RADIO

on Mike and Mike in the morning

and Olney’s one of the more credible writers in the industry

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok.

Would be interesting to hear Bruce’s take on it.

by Shanghai Badger on May 6, 2008 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Calling Deep Goat!

Is Jim Hendry going to stand up to Lou?

by DGU on May 6, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

found the link-sort of

http://espnradio.espn.go.com/espnradio/podcast/archive?id=2544461

the 4/16 podcast

it was actually with the fantasy guys and not Mike and Mike. I knew I saw it somewhere. I think its around the 4 minute mark or so

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 6, 2008 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stop the yo-yo sentiment for Felix Pie

Like I said last week there are visible signs the organization is giving up on Felix Pie. If you want to lay that all at Lou Piniella’s doorstep, then fine. It’s patently incorrect to do so, but that is the reactionary nature of some fans.

I’m not going to be seduced into getting excited about Pie via performance in an at bat or a game or a couple games. It is ridiculous that every time this guy gets a hit, the masses of BCB scream “see I told ya !!!!!” Peel back the onion skin folks.

by MDBNIU on May 6, 2008 9:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Peel back the onion skin to what?

See if you believe that minor league numbers are predictive of major league numbers, then you peel back the bad start and see a guy who has had success at ever level. On the other hand, if you believe any fool can succeed at the minor league level (except, I guess, Ryan Theriot), then there is nothing to peel back to – as you allude. What that also means, is that you will never develop prospects, because you will never believe they have any substance to them.

I reject that view completely. All you have to do is look to the Yankees and Red Sox who have realized you can’t just build off of free agents and you must develop your talent. If the Cubs can’t develop a hitter who plays great defense when they are scoring more runs than any other team in baseball, then they never will.

by DGU on May 6, 2008 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bull

Geovany Soto and Ryan Theriot have adapted to the majors just fine. In fact, both are thriving under the tutelage and managerial piloting of Lou Piniella. And if you look at Piniella’s history in New York, Cincinnati, Seattle and Tampa Bay then you see a boatload of young talent that established themselves and thrived under his helm.

Felix Pie’s hitting approach is wretched. He’s never going to hit major league pitching on a consistent basis. I used to think he could develop into a poor man’s Juan Encarnacion. But not anymore. And it has nothing with me being overly pessimistic or Debbie Downer or any of the other labels you’d like to attach.

But if you want to get excited by a few at bats, then by all means go right ahead. At least in those circumstances Pie is actually helping the team as opposed to being his usual achilles heel self.

by MDBNIU on May 6, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You aren't hearing me.

I am excited over Pie’s entire minor league career. I believe those numbers predict future success. If a “big deal” gets made out of a few ABs here or there, it’s in response to the Pie-detractors who made a big deal out of his slow start.

There are plenty of prospects who are not able to make immediate transitions to the majors. I think the reason for that is quite simple – it’s because even the best ML players can hit .170 for a stretch that is a lot longer than you’d expect. There were some bad stretches last year for Derrek Lee where he looked lost at the plate.

Find me a player who hasn’t had a 200 PA stretch of bad hitting in him.

by DGU on May 6, 2008 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Disagree strongly

You need to give the Cubs more credit than that. There not that naive and stupid to judge a young ballplayer simply by his production totals in X number of at bats. The thing with Felix Pie is his hitting approach and swing. It would be one thing if he had a sweet swing ala a young Josh Hamilton in Texas. If Hamilton struggled for a 100 at bats or so then you’d chalk it up to growing pains or making adjustments to major league pitchers. But in the case of Pie those arguments fall by the wayside. He looks AWFUL in the batter’s box. His swing is big and loopy. And lets be honest, the Cubs have invested enormous resources in working with Pie on his hitting.

I’m very pessimistic on Felix Pie. I don’t gain satisfaction in that at any level despite what you may think.

by MDBNIU on May 6, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

re: Disagree strongly
I’m very pessimistic on Felix Pie.

You don’t say?

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and bears

Sh1t in the woods.

With the pope.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2008 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't remember saying or even thinking that you got satisfaction out of your anti-Pie-tism;

I just think it’s your perspective and it’s wrong and short-sighted. I have wrong and short-sighted perspectives myself from time to time.

So, Pie looks awful to you. He doesn’t to me. Can’t solve that one.

But we also know that the Cubs are divided on Pie. Some are for him and some against. So, it’s not like I “need to give the Cubs more credit than that.” I’m clearly giving some in the Cubs’ organization a lot of credit.

The question is whether or not Lou deserves credit for his handling of Felix. I don’t know the full mind of Lou (even if I do respect it). But I do see a pattern in Lou of playing the guys who start hot and never gaining confidence in the guys who start cold. If it’s as simple as that for Lou, someone needs to sit him down and get him to look at things anew.

by DGU on May 6, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Examine Lou's managerial history

The names of the young players who developed and thrived under Sweet Lou reads like a Who’s Who of baseball stars in the 90’s and 00’s. If anything, it is further indictment against Felix Pie that he is gaining playing time.

by MDBNIU on May 6, 2008 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No kidding, and they all instantly develop with him too

Well, except this one guy. This one chump – just could not adjust to major league hitting. In his first stint of 17 games he hit .204 and struck out 20 times in 54 at bats, with no extra base hits.

Then – if you can believe it – Lou gave him another, longer chance. This time Lou let him play for a stint of 48 games and he only marginally improved – this time batting .232 and striking out 42 times in 142 at bats. He hit a few home runs but still wasn’t very good.

He certainly didn’t thrive right away under Lou’s tutelage either, which means he’s no good. It’s a good thing that Lou gave up on him then and there like you’re suggesting that he do with Pie.

by Wreckard on May 6, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Loud, sustained applause.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Awesome -- well done.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A-Rod is a power hitter. As such, he's expected to strike out a lot.

Pie isn’t a power hitter. Lou is pissed off that Pie’s swinging as if he were. That, I believe, explains the difference in Lou’s approach.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Safe to say

Pie has not been given consistent AB’s for a long stretch. Lets see what the guy could do if given say, 20 games in a row. You have to admit starting two games sit for 2, start one game sit for 2, start 2 games sit one, and so on and so on, is not fair judgement for a ballplayer. IMO

"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"

by Grockcubs on May 6, 2008 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not throwing 20 games to chance...

the alternative (Johnson) isn’t substantially better, if he’s better at all. The impact of the #8 hitter over a 20-game stretch isn’t that big to begin with.

by SouthernCub on May 6, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Should I be scared to say that I agree with you on this?

However, I don’t think that recognizing reality is being pessimistic. I want Pie to succeed, I was encouraged by his spring, but against regular season MLB pitching it’s hard to find someone who looks as bad as Pie. That swing is not going to get Pie anywhere. That is why Lou and Gerald Perry are trying to change it. So far, I don’t see any success in their endeavor. Maybe I’m slow to notice, but I don’t see it yet.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I see.

It’s ridiculous for the “masses of BCB” (?!) to rejoice when Pie gets a hit, but it’s completely acceptable for you to write him off as a bust every time he strikes out. You, sir, are the king of small-sample, subjective analysis. I wouldn’t advise going down this road.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So when will we find out who is replacing Hill in the rotation? Would it be tomorrow’s game? (Lilly Friday, Demp Sat, Z Sun?) As has been mentioned before, we hardly need 5 starters at this point in the season, with all the off days. I love getting Carlos in there as much as possible, so the off-day skips are great in my book. Also, with the multitude of starters on the roster, there is NO REASON why we should ever have 13 pitchers…12 is excessive as well. If we have the current 4 starters, then one of Lieber/Gallagher as #5 (who doesn’t need to go every time around), we then have the other one of these two (and both some days) in the bullpen. Add in the 4 relievers we know we will carry right now (Wood/Howry/Marmol/Wuertz) and then you’re up to 10 pitchers. When Eyre is back, we’d then have him in the LOOGY spot. Doesn’t this seem like enough relievers to have on an everyday basis?! When we hit a rough spot, we can bring up and rotate guys through that 12th spot, out of Hart, Marshall (these guys shouldn’t be used for 0.2 IP, stupid), Ascanio, Fox. We can do this with Fox, correct? Or would he then go on waivers since, I assume, he is out of options. Not like he’d be burning up the wire with interest.

by Canseco's Roid Party on May 6, 2008 9:42 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

It's Lieber.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i would send pie

aside of a great defensive play here and there, he has shown very little signs that he can be an everyday player. Plus the way Soriano goes back on fly balls, i am not sure of how much he communicates out there in the outfield. Another thing, if we are going to blame fonty for last night why not have a posting basically saying the soriano has cost us more games this year than anyone, maybe we should start a hero of the week and a goat of the week, part of getting the big bucks is also being called out when you play like a tee baller

Dempster....Number 3 starter?????????

by cubsfaninkc on May 6, 2008 9:51 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

So Soriano's failure to catch fly balls in left field is Pie's fault?

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

There is no question that Alfonso Soriano has proved to be a liability both offensively and defensively WAY MORE than he has been a positive contributor. Under any objective standards that would be wholly unacceptable. Whether we are talking the superstar of the team or the 25th man on the roster.

The Soriano mess is becoming of trainwreck proportions. And unfortunately Lou Piniella is handling the situation extremely poorly.

by MDBNIU on May 6, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

rabblerabblerabblerabblerabblerabblerabblerabblerabble

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Should I be scared to agree with you once more?

I usually don’t, but on two subjects today, I’m afraid you’re on to something.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is how it starts.

Pretty soon you’ll be changing your user name and heralding David Aardsma as the greatest relief pitcher of all time.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And yearning

for the greatest Cubs SS in the best 20 years, Cesar Izturis.

by rlpete on May 6, 2008 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...

Soriano dropping balls and looking like a little leaguer out there the past week has nothing to do with who is playing CF.

"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will

by Santo4HOFASAP on May 6, 2008 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Blame on Piniella

The manager doesn’t win or lose the games by hymself but I put a lot of blame on the recent play on Piniella. He simply has not managed the roster properly. Examples:

- Ramirez goes down and he plays Fontenot over Cedeño who is worse both defensively and offensively.

- Soriano is still hitting first in the lineup. His whole babying “superstar” thing with Soriano has been very disappointing.

- Pie should be playing against all RHP because Johnson has been awful against them and Pie has actually done better as of late. And this is coming from a guy who doesn’t believe in Pie.

- This might be more questionable but I don’t agree with his decision of taking Rich Hill out in a 1-0 game. You either let him blow up or get it together. By taking him out in that situation you acomplish pretty much nothing.

- DeRosa is in a great slump and he could easily be given a day off and you could get Cedeño in there. But Lou keeps playing him while Cedeño rots on the bench.

- Having Marmol throw two innings in a blowout?

Lou is making me scratch my head recently. I expect better decisions from him.

by Luis on May 6, 2008 9:55 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Agree except on (1) and (4).

(5) takes care of (1). Rest De Rosa and play Cedeño more. But Fontenot’s bat is hot right now. Play him until he cools off.

As to (4), Lou was right to take Hill out of there to keep the game close. Lou’s job as manager is to help the team win, not to keep the pitcher’s confidence. Again, this is not a team in a rebuilding mode.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the brighter side

I don’t think I’ve been prouder of Soriano this year than I was watching him take those low and away pitches in the 9th last night. That’s got to be considered progress, right?

by goldglove on May 6, 2008 9:56 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Progress...

Yes I believe it is since there was several breaking balls thrown following the 0-2 count it was great to hear him not K.

"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will

by Santo4HOFASAP on May 6, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely

a good sign..hopefully he’s coming out of his slump. We need him to pick it up.

by lance dickson on May 6, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He probably was standing there with his eyes closed.

Or maybe he had the Take sign.

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just lovely

Soriano’s fault for all 14 losses this year, may as well say it.

"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"

by Grockcubs on May 6, 2008 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

It amazes me how little sarcasm, humor, or irony, let alone plain-old joking, is understood around here. Who are you people? Erlichda.

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

More reason why we

need some sort of sarcasm font

"Very adroit in the outfield." - Lou, on Dome

by gwood on May 6, 2008 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Indeed we do

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

part of the center fielder job

is to make sure that he talks to the other fielders to let them know where there are in relationship to the wall, it appears that soriano has no clue how far he is to the wall where the ball is going. If you are on the side of someone you can see it clearly how far back someone has to go. Its a basic drill that they should be doing in spring training but i cant say for sure that pie or johnson are talking to him but it doesnot look like it

where can i apply to make 120 million to misjudge fly balls?

by cubsfaninkc on May 6, 2008 9:57 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You're right.

But I think it’s unfair to blame Pie for Soriano’s suckiness as a LF.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Piniella has been screwing up, no doubt about it

I’m a HUGE Sweet Lou fan. Best manager the Cubs have had since I began passionately following this team in 1977. That being said, he is having a REAL BAD two weeks. I am bitterly disappointed by his continuing handling of the Alfonso Soriano situation. I also for the life me don’t understand why Kosuke isn’t hitting at the top of the order. Playing Mike Fontenot all the time is also a head scratcher.

by MDBNIU on May 6, 2008 9:59 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

"bitterly" being the operative word here

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Should I be scared to agree with you for the third time today?

Because I know I’ll be flamed, but if it’s right, it’s right regardless of who says it.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

??

Soriano getting horrible jumps on balls has nothing to do with communication. Plus, most of the time the CF isn’t in the picture so I’m not sure how you’re positive they aren’t talking to him.

"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will

by Santo4HOFASAP on May 6, 2008 10:01 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, maybe someone who's actually played baseball a little more than me...

...can comment here. Do centerfielder’s typically play air-traffic controller for the left fielder when said left fielder is going back on a fly ball? Seems to me, Pie (or Johnson) yelling at Soriano as he heads toward the wall would serve only to further distract him.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A CF...

...will yell general direction to another OF, as will any OF to help their teamate.

As an example; if Pie reads a ball is going over Soriano’s head, he will yell – “back, back”, or he will yell “in, in” if the ball is in front of the other OF. This is common OF practice from high school ball on up through the big leagues.

With the above said, Pie can’t do anything to help Soriano get a better initial read on a ball, that has to come from Soriano’s own eyes. He can only yell out corrective instructions if he sees he is breaking the wrong way.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 6, 2008 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting, thanks!

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Soriano has to know where the wall is and that comes from warm-ups and just a general knowledge of how far away the wall is. Pie and Johnson can tell him in in in or back back back all they want, it just appears to me that Soriano isn’t getting good reads of the bat right now. Could be a lack of practice thus far this season or just that he isn’t 100% and his closing speed has slowed.

"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will

by Santo4HOFASAP on May 6, 2008 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Correct...

...when you get a bad initial read on a ball, you make even a routine play difficult. This is why the instinct of reading the ball off the bat correctly, is the most important quality any OF can have.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on May 6, 2008 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I posted this comment in ST

Sori looked bad in LF then, and for someone that needs to get better at his position, I saw no extra practice for him at all. If you are a manager and you know Sori’s got issues with going back on a ball and poor routes, the only way to get better is through repetition and coaching. You don’t get better in games. Sori should get more than the 10 or 12 fly balls they usually get at the beginning of batting practice. With his speed and arm, he could be a great outfilder.

"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse

by BigJohnAZ on May 6, 2008 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sori

looked better when he was doing his hop. Seriously. Haven’t seen him doing it since he returned from the DL, and he’s been terrible.

That shows how much of a headcase he can be.

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

wasn't it the hop

that caused the calf injury?

Maybe he’s not completely better. He pushed very hard to come back from the DL last year too, and had that wrist problem.

2008: The year we put it all together.

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sori said it wasn't

he hops with the other leg, not the one that was injured.

"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse

by BigJohnAZ on May 6, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whatever caused it,

I haven’t seen him do the hop lately. Maybe Piniella or Hendry told him to cut it out.

"Just because you've had enough/ doesn't mean you wanted too much." -Dean Young

by Kegler on May 6, 2008 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I did notice that in the St. Louis series

n/t

"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse

by BigJohnAZ on May 6, 2008 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OT: Standings on the right sidebar

Al, I was just on the homepage of BCB… and I can’t find the Cubs record and/or expandable standings on the page. It used to be about half way down on the right sidebar.

Any thoughts?

by bap on May 6, 2008 10:10 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I took it down because...

... it wasn’t updating, as a couple people noticed yesterday. Unfortunately, now I can’t find it to put it back! As soon as the tech people help me find it, I’ll put it back.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 6, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Standings/records returned.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 6, 2008 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anyone listening to ESPN 1000 right now....

Caller just said that the Reds broadcasters (Welsh/Brennaman) all but indicted Soto last night for being Roided up due to the large disparity of his AAA #’s compared to his big league stats. Can anyone confirm these statements? If I’m not mistaken wasn’t Soto groomed as more of an offensive catcher while in the minors? And didn’t he win the batting league title before coming up?

"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry

by Jayo525 on May 6, 2008 10:23 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh, what a load of nonsense.

Brennaman, as we know, hates the Cubs and Cub fans. Now he’s trying to make believe Soto’s a roid guy?

Brennaman ought to retire, and the HoF ought to revoke his Frick award.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 6, 2008 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha

Maybe Marty didnt realize they test for this stuff.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on May 6, 2008 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Somebody needs to empty Marty's drool cup

He’s always been an idiot. About as popular as SMilo Hamilton in baseball circles throughout his career. He should worry more about the Reds. Or when his son will contract lung cancer from his chain smoking.

by MDBNIU on May 6, 2008 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

See below for my opinion.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I made a post concerning this a while back

His numbers are very suspicious, but you can’t know for sure by just looking at stats. I would certainly hope that this has nothing to do roids, as everyone else. It’s a great feelgood story if true.

As far as testing, I don’t believe in the current system. How many players have tested positive in the last two years? I don’t believe that less than 1% of major leaguers are on steroids.

There’s not much more one can say on this matter. If/until he ever tests positive you have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

by Luis on May 6, 2008 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"His numbers are very suspicious"?

so now anyone who does well is “suspicious”? sheesh, gimme a break.

why can’t he just be a good, improving, young ball player?

"I'd rather win ugly than lose pretty," -- Lou Pinella

by anormal on May 6, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Suspicious is this

Soto was very consistently average/below average offensively for more that 1,500 ABs spread out in 5 seasons. Then all of the sudden he turned in to a not just good but elite offensive player in 2007. There was no curve of improvement or anything like that. So yeah, that’s suspicious. When a players OPS jumps .300 points from sample as big as that (1,500ABs) you can certainly have suspicions. Especially if you understand that suspicious is not the same as saying he is guilty, it just means that it’s possible given his statistics. Note also that if Soto didn’t have a breakout year last year he was almost destined to be a career minor leaguer and that’s another ingredient.

Believe me, I want to believe he is clean. He has been a force in the Cubs lineup and could be for a lot of years. That won’t make naive though. And I’m not drawing conclusions.

by Luis on May 6, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow, that’s sad.

"I'd rather win ugly than lose pretty," -- Lou Pinella

by anormal on May 6, 2008 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have the Extra innings package

and unfortunately had to listen to the Reds announcers last night . When they made the comment about Soto, I said enough, put my I-pod on and said screw these guys.
Minor leaguers are tested just as much if not more than the bigs. It just erks me when a player gets going in his career, steriods has to be the reason.
I know this is the era we are living in, but enough, if Sotos comes up positive, I will become a indoor Lacrosse fan.

"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"

by Grockcubs on May 6, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The big problem

Is that I don’t believe in the testing that’s being done right now. Until the testing is done independently I won’t. The conflict of interest is too great. Thus, everybody is under the same cloud. And I don’t think the steroid era is over (although it has probably decreased but not as much as some people might think). That being said, I don’t think the Reds commentators should have speculated that officialy without any evidence other than stats. That’s not very professional IMO.

by Luis on May 6, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK.

But Soto improved consistently, year after year in the minors. Surely, that’s was he was supposed to do.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What you say and the stats don't agree

2001: .714 OPS
2002: .744 OPS
2003: .630 OPS
2004: .750 OPS
2005: .699 OPS
2006: .739 OPS

2007: 1.076 OPS

There is no trend between 2001-2006. It seems that his ability was centered around a low .700 OPS and there was some fluctuation above and below that threshold without any apparent trend. Then in 2007 he had a .300+ jump in OPS from his career norms. Note than in 6 years from 2001 to 2006 he didn’t have an OPS above .750.

by Luis on May 6, 2008 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No. His numbers in AAA improved each year.

2005: .253 .357 .342 .699
2006: .272 .353 .386 .739
2007: .353 .424 .652 1.076

I should have been clear on that when I referenced “the minors”, because it is expected that a good hitter would have better numbers in Class A or AA than in AAA, where pitching is better.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

2005 and 2006

Are exactly along his career norms, the difference is most probably due to random fluctuation. Before 2005 he had OPS below and above .699. Going from .699 to .739 to 1.076 is not a trend. .699 = .739 in statistical terms and even if you don’t think that how does a .40 jump one year predict a .300+ jump the next?

by Luis on May 6, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He improved mostly in 2007.

And never regressed.
Numbers explain past performance, but a player can improve. In fact, that is what is expected from a young player like Soto.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great

Now, let’s find out where your leap comes from then. What evidence is there to support your assumption that steroids are any more likely to turn a .700 OPS hitter into a 1.000 OPS hitter than a mental or mechanical breakthrough?

You’re assuming that steroids can have this huge impact on ability, and using that assumption to back up your suspicion. I’m not saying steroids don’t benefit playing ability, but the notion that steroids are more likely to cause this change than a better exercise program, or making a large adjustment is specious at best and irresponsible at worst. The degree of change seems so overwhelmingly large that if steroids could do that there’d be dozens of examples like this.

by Wreckard on May 6, 2008 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

O-K

Whatever you say.

Btw, see Adrian Beltran’s career stats and you’ll notice some strong similarities. I think that most people would tell you that his career year was VERY suspicious, at the very least.

by Luis on May 6, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If one player improved due to illegal substances...

that doesn’t mean that most players who improve are likely using them.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The mind spins at the circular reasoning here

Soto showed a huge improvement, which is suspicious because it was similar to Beltre’s, which is suspicious because he showed a huge improvement.

by Wreckard on May 6, 2008 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's Brennaman going to do next?

Get caught relieving himself on the Harry statue? This guy is a paranoid megalomaniac who needs some sound pyschiatric advice and a long vacation.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can't quite remember

I watched the game on FSN Ohio and I can’t quote with 100% certainty but I’m pretty sure they were remarking more on how steroids usually are brought up when a player makes such an improvement. They also mentioned how Sosa couldn’t hit homeruns and then all of a sudden started doing so.

A better quote came at the begining of the game when I forget which one commented that Felix Pie has no errors but that should not be taken seriously because he can't hiit the cut of man and every ball that he throws into the infield goes sailing over everyone's head.  It was a pretty weird moment.  My friend (a Reds' fan) and I both commented at the same time that the announcer sounded like Pie had had improper relations with his wife.

by Villeslgr on May 6, 2008 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Drat! The infamous grey bar!

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was Thom, not Marty Brennaman, who made the infamous comment.

I posted about this last night. Thom was irresponsible to imply that Soto is juiced. He said he was surprised nobody has brought it up because it usually is when a player hits like Soto, unexpectedly. Fortunetely, Brennaman’s broadcast partner jumped in and clarified that Soto’s offense is not unexpected based on what he did in the minors and last year with the Cubs. To me it sounded as if Thom Brennaman wanted to poison the well. He mentioned the steroid factor but didn’t dare to say he had any suspicions; he said he was curious that no one else was suspicious. That’s unprofessional. If there are no suspicionsas Thom said, then why mention it, implying there should be suspicions?

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I consider Thom as unprofessional as his father.

This doesn’t surprise me a bit. Thom’s a pompous ass who’s probably still frosted that the Cubs wouldn’t let him do his Fox-TV work.

The Brennamans can rot in broadcasting hell for all time.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 6, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yep center fielders do talk

during college our center fielder was an all american and he talked constantly while he was backing up plays. Our left and right fielders knew exactly how far they were from the wall and if a guy was tagging up or not, thats part of being the outfield captin. Now in the pros most of these thing they know everything, but the good ones talk to the other because they are suppose to be watch the ball not the ground or the runners.

It not different than a catcher telling a pitcher where to throw the ball on a bunt.

I am not saying the our center fielders are not talking to him, but someone needs to get in his face and tell him to pull his head out and start playing

where can i apply to make 120 million to misjudge fly balls?

by cubsfaninkc on May 6, 2008 10:24 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Here's a picture of MArty Brennaman's credibility:

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oops!

this was supposed to be in reply to the crack about Soto.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's an insult to Swiss cheese.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 6, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha

"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry

by Jayo525 on May 6, 2008 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I gotta admit, I wasn't particularly aware of this.

I still think it’s a stretch to indict Pie on this basis without clear evidence that he’s failing to communicate effectively in the field. Moreover, given Soriano and Pie’s big brother/little brother relationship, it seems doubtful that Felix would ever get in his face. Let’s just hope Pie can lead by example — last night’s catch being a damn good lesson.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on May 6, 2008 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the vast majority of all of us here do.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on May 6, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

George Orwell approves of this statement:

the vast majority of all of us here

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on May 6, 2008 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even Joe Morgan concurs.

"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry

by Jayo525 on May 6, 2008 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No he doesn't.

He said so Sunday night. Maybe that’s another argument for the switch.

by Fraggin Judge on May 6, 2008 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs