Does Lou Understand What Overuse Is?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 15, 2008 2:50 PM CDT
174 comments
So we're watching the Cubs play great ball against the Jays. We're watching Marquis and Lilly pitch like staff aces. We're watching young players produce and help this club maintain the best record in baseball. Finally...we're watching, IMHO, Lou unnecessarily utilize one of the best RH relievers in the game, only part of the way through an important season.
Please explain to me why Marmol was even warmed up with a 6 run lead in the 7th today, let alone come in to face one in the 7th and then pitch some of the 8th! PLEASE.
Leiber, Wuertz, Cotts, heck, even Howry again would have been fine. Why does Lou insist upon using Marmol every day???? I am at a complete loss. Does anyone have the balls to approach Lou and say, "Let the kid rest a couple days"?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I was thinking the same thing
I can understand that Lou is maybe basing it on how many pitches Marmol the day before but, with a seven run lead, you’re right-this seemed to be a classic chanch to let the second tier guys step up. It seems pretty clear that Lou doesn’t have a lot of faith in those guys though.
i hate to ever compare Lou to Dusty-Lou is clearly a superior manager-but it’s time’s like this that I get a disturbing feeling of deja vu.
by bluekoolaide on Jun 15, 2008 3:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think that is part of the problem
As Cubs fans we are hyper aware of overworked pitchers. I also am concerned that Marmol is being overworked. But I think part of it is just paranoia from the Dusty era
by Madison Cub Fan on Jun 15, 2008 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem people in the Cubs organization have with Lou when they disagree with him
is Lou’s record of success with the Cubs. Playing into this is the fact that most of Lou’s controversial moves have been designed to win the game right in front of Lou (last year’s playoffs being the one major exception). So, when he wins now (“now” defined “today” instead of “the 2008 WS”) , it is hard to criticize him. On top of all that is the fact that Lou has done a good job of controlling his message. His tactics have been a whole lot more effective in shielding him from criticism than hiding behind little Darren.
by DGU on Jun 15, 2008 3:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
lou doesnt understand how to use his bullpen
seriously when you have a jon lieber in the pen that hasn’t been used for a long time, i think it’s a good time to use him. Stop using Marmol, Lous gonna blow him out in August and it’s gonna be his fault. I just don’t understand what the heck he’s thinking. It’s just hard to understand why he keeps trotting out marmol. So what Eyre’s in a jam, let him work out of it, they do have a 6 run lead.
by lexmarklover on Jun 15, 2008 3:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
which ended up being a three run lead.
Let’s be fair. The bullpen, outside of Marmol and Woody, have let Lou down more than they’ve not. Eyre had been really good up till now, but then he struggled today. Cotts is up and down. Lieber had that blow-out start (and I think he should be allowed to start again), Wuertz has been mediocre, and Howry has been very up and down. Maybe what Lou wants to do is run away with the division RIGHT NOW, so that he can rest Marmol in August when he thinks it’ll be a better time to let some games get away.
Fact of the matter is, no one knows what Lou’s gonna do other than Lou. His record is awfully hard to argue with. He knows Marmol can’t go three days in a row, but he will use Marmol when he thinks he needs to in order to win the game NOW.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree
I think Lou wants to put some distance between us and the outher NL central teams early on. I think, partly, hes hoping that Howry gets better in the second half (like he usually does) so he can lean on him down the stretch and give marmol more rest. I still think today was a wasted appearence for marmol, even if they have a day off tomorrow (sort of).
I guess my feeling is i fully trust Lou. Do i think hes the best manager in baseball… not really. but he’s a winner and i am confident he has a plan that doesnt involve pitching marmol’s arm off. Marmol is hot right now, hes leaning on him while the rest of our (very capiable) pen gets up to speed. Maybe thats what is going on here.
by cubbieson44th on Jun 15, 2008 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is where the Manager needs to earn his pay and not give in to prejudice...
...based on past performances. With a a 6 Run lead Ronny Cedeno can come in to pitch and we should be fine. This is precisely when you use the dregs in your pen because the numbers tell you that pretty much anyone in a MLB uniform can “protect” that big of a lead. This point is lost on allot of managers, including Pinella. Once a manager like Lou or Dusty loses confidence in a pitcher it appears to be nearly impossible for them to exhibit trust, even in the most gimmee type situations…I hope that this changes as the season progresses, the Murphy’s Law Cubs fan within me already has a few choke scenarios in mind come the playoffs, one of them involves Marmol coming into the 3rd inning of game 7 of the NLCS and asked to pitch the game to Woody in the 9th, LOL,...somewhere between the the 3rd and the 9th they find Marmol’s arms stuck in the backstop screen, LOL…
by DudeVf11 on Jun 15, 2008 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I too am surprised by his use of Marmol
on almost a daily basis. We did have a six run lead when Eyre got in a jam. He has got to resist the urge to use Marmol. We had Wuertz and Leiber who hadn’t pitched in a while. I think they both need to pitch more. Lou, stay away from Marmol. He has been God like for us, but he is still human.
by mgfabc on Jun 15, 2008 4:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Marmol's appearances will start to decrease....
I can’t imagine how a good manager would ride a pitcher, especially a young pitcher w/o a lot of experience, so hard unless he was going to reduce his appearances in the 2nd half.
I looked around the league at what the best set-up men and closers usually have for IP totals per year. Ranges anywere from 70-85 IP in the norm. Marmol is on pace to pitch around 100 innings.
I think this is also Lou’s way of prompting Hendry to make some deals at the deadline. We are almost certainly gonna need another arm in the pen, especially if Howry can’t get his arm back
by smitster2008 on Jun 15, 2008 4:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Marmol pitched
around 100 innnings last year, too.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But we don't need another arm in the 'pen.
Our ‘pen is a strength. We need to help the pitchers who have lost confidence and/or stuff regain it. Today’s situation was a perfect one to show some confidence in Michael Wuertz or to give some work to Jon Lieber.
I don’t get the idea that Marmol’s workload will be decreased. What evidence do we have that Lou would stop playing to win now (“now” defined as “today” not as “2008 WS”) just because it’s August?
by DGU on Jun 15, 2008 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lou does keep giving the pen
a chance. Howry pitched yesterday, right? And Wuertz had a coupla innings… um, well, I don’t remember. Hmm.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what excuse is there
for using him today? None. He was not needed and those are our chances to rest him. I agree the resting him in the 2nd half thing is ridiculous. Why? He will be needed then too. He is a great pitcher. Stretch anyone too thin and we have problems. I just see no reason for his appearance today.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 15, 2008 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, for one thing
he doesn’t need an excuse; he’s the manager, he makes the decisions, not excuses.
Perhaps he felt Marmol needed the work. More importantly, he felt, I think, that he can’t trust the pen outside of Marmol and Woody. And once again, he was proven right.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How in the WORLD was he proven right?
because one pitcher put a couple on? Cmon man. Leiber is sitting in the pen doing NOTHING and could have come in. A SIX RUN LEAD. We’re not talking a 2 run lead…
You and I do not agree. That’s all. Lou did not need to put him in. Oh and thanks for the lesson in excuses. I need an excuse for a fairly inappropriate move. You obviously buy everything he does because he has won for us. I like almost all of Lou’s stuff, this I do not.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 15, 2008 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he had a six run lead
and then he had a three run lead. Right? We did win the game 7-4, after Cotts gave up a 2-run homerun, right?
Stop making assumptions about what I do or do not “buy”.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No assumptions...
you said it to us.
When Marmol came in, the lead was still a big one. Simple matter of numbers.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
And he expected Marmol to hold the lead, and Marmol did. And then other bp pitchers came in, and the lead was cut to 3.
Stop expecting to be able to analyze this as a function of logic. I don’t think Lou is being logical about this. He doesn’t seem to trust the pen. It doesn’t necessarily make sense.
And once again, you need to stop making assumptions about what I do or do not “buy”.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which part of no assumptions did you not understand?
You have your opinion which I believe is flawed and I mine, which clearly you think is flawed. Get over yourself.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
just because I'm able to argue Lou's point
doesn’t mean I agree with it. Furthermore, your attitude is condescending and rude. You’re getting completely riled up over something you cannot control at all. I did the same thing over Jason Marquis, but at least it was only for one day.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention,
you keep telling us that his winning record is hard to argue with. Am I arguing that he has not won for us? No.
Could I possibly say yes he won for us last year and then the team looked entirely spent and played like crap to be swept out of the playoffs? Yes.
Can I also say that it might be wise to try to preserve as much of this stellar ballclub as possible? Sure why not?
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can’t make the post without winning. The post is a crap-shoot—even Al says that. I actually think that our post-season was so crappy because there was TOO MUCH rest.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose you are entitled whatever opinion you choose to
share with us. I think you are wrong.
See below post on marathon analogy. Marathon runners don’t expend all their energy at the beginning hoping to “distance themselves from the pack”. Why should the Cubs?
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
because the analogy is flawed
winning the first 95 games of the season in a row and then losing 70 in a row would give us the same result as winning 95 games over the course of the seson, losing 70 in sets of three.
Yes, Baseball is a long season, and it’s combined wins that matter. But you still have to stay with the pack, or blow out the division completely. It’s not like St. Louis is losing lots of games.
Furthermore, as someone else said below, Marmol actually isn’t pitching as much as you’re suggesting. He pitched three innings this week!
Maybe you should go breathe into a brown-paper bag for a while. You appear to be hyper-ventilating.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has any team won the first 95 games?
That’s what I thought.
My point was never that THIS WEEK was too much. Fact is he is one of the top relievers as far as IP. If you have a chance to rest him…do it.
That was my point which I still have trouble understanding why you take such exception to. I use the term overuse generally. Marmol is used yesterday, and then today we need him, and then tomorrow we need him and so on. All of a sudden, yesterday seems like a bad idea.
Thanks for the concern thoughwith the hyper ventilating.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not taking exception to anything,
other than the arrogant assumption that I’m in some kind of lock-step with Lou Pinella.
Lou used him because Lou wanted to—and the game ended up being a lot closer than 7-0, too. Hindsight looks pretty good for putting Marmol in.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay.
Sure.
Why are you so opposed to acknowledging my points that seem to be valid?
Simple facts. 6 run lead, plenty of pitchers available in a seemingly safe game. You keep speculating how the game would have turned out had another pitcher came in.
How can you do this? Do you know something we all don’t?
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sigh.
All I know is that when the pen (excepting Marmol) was given a chance to keep the six run lead, they blew it, and we ended up with a three run lead. When that happens, it reinforces Lou’s opinion that he cannot trust the pen EXCEPT for Marmol, so he brings Marmol out in situations where many of us think it’s unnecessary.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pinella is NOT Dusty
He knows exactly what he’s doing with his bullpen and staff at any given moment. To quote Phil Jackson “Momentum is a strange girl isnt it?”
Marmol came into the game after a few hits against Eyre and he wanted to make sure the “door” was closed on the Jays.
Given the fact that he will be most likely sent ahead to Tampa, I say relax and enjoy taking 2 of 3.
"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager
"Thats deep to left.....back back back HEY HEY!!! he did it attaboy Jimmy!!!!! woooooooo!!! tie game!! Thats for you Jack" Len Kasper 6/12/08
by Galvan316 on Jun 15, 2008 4:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well...........
...........perhaps the question reaches further back to….....”If he’s our lefty specialist, why was Scott Eyre pitching in the first place?”
As other posts have mentioned, with a 7-run lead and 9 outs remaining, this is, to my way of thinking, a perfect time to use Jon Lieber. He was fresh, obviously, having not been used since Tuesday and with a day off tomorrow, having him go the last 3 innings would have been fine. Let’s face it, if Lieber is to be sharp he needs work too. This was an opportune time, in my opinion.
Lou keeps saying how he “needs to rest” this guy or that guy, yet you see this kind of stuff happening day in and day out. I trust Lou completely, but this kind of crap does cause some head scratching.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Jun 15, 2008 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lou is Lou
I think this diary is not overly concerned with this game as much as with a pattern of Lou’s usage.
by DGU on Jun 15, 2008 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I trust Lou for the most part...
I do not feel confident he understands that a young pitcher will tire. I am sure Marmol says, ” Put me in every day”. Gotta resist.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 15, 2008 9:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how long has Lou been in the baseball world, you really dont think he knows that
what about the PITCHING COACH, or the other assistant he has.
by brownbuddha on Jun 15, 2008 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to trust professional baseball people
over the rambling of various opinions here. Maybe Lou and his staff know a little bit more about this team than we do. He has a track record. He has won a championship. I don’t think anyone else on this blog can make that claim.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 15, 2008 9:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
correct my friend
and i know everyone has there opinion on this, that is what a blog is, but people please trust the players and managers in what they do, they are the professional and not us.
by brownbuddha on Jun 15, 2008 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand this line of argument
and believe me, when I disagree with a move Lou or Hendry make, I disagree humbly. I imagine most of the people who disagree with Cubs managers do so fully aware that we are fans and they are the pros.
At the same time, as you said, a blog is what a blog is. Part of the fun of talking about this magnificent Cubs season is in analyzing what is working and what might not be. So, when we come on here to chat, it’s a place to raise questions and even make not-so-humble sounding arguments.
If on some controversial issue, in the end, you hear the argument and you aren’t sure but still want to trust Lou/Hendry, that’s a reasonable conclusion. At the same time, an argument by authority “He’s won and he says it therefore it must be true,” doesn’t settle the matter. Lou can be wrong. Even a fan who has never played baseball can stumble across the truth and be right.
by DGU on Jun 16, 2008 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
and I might add that I did play baseball, not for all that long, more of a hockey player but, I did play. I just shy away from EVER saying it so as not to sound like BlueMike.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure why he was in there
and I know about the fire-putting-out concept but there were other options I think Lou could have used going into B7.
42 IP in 70 G is a lot for a still-to-be-proven durable youngster. I’d really like to see Marmol in only 1 game at most in the Tampa series. That would then give him 3 days off in 4 going into the ChiSox series next weekend.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
by blackhawk24 on Jun 15, 2008 5:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't have put marmol in today
but I also don’t think he’s being overused to an extent that it’s going to hurt him at this point. When marmol pitches…he usually doesn’t throw many pitches…quick innings. My guess is that lou wanted to give him work today before the off day so marmol can be sharp for the series with the rays where he will probably be needed.
by cubsmania on Jun 15, 2008 6:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Marmol
threw to 3 hitters. There’s an off day tomorrow.
We are 20 games over .500 earlier than any Cub team since 1906.
Lou is doing something right.
That’s why he’s getting the big bucks and we’re not.
by Clark Addison on Jun 15, 2008 7:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
LSA!!!!
"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager
"Thats deep to left.....back back back HEY HEY!!! he did it attaboy Jimmy!!!!! woooooooo!!! tie game!! Thats for you Jack" Len Kasper 6/12/08
by Galvan316 on Jun 15, 2008 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
bcb dictionary is great resource for acronyms
by Madison Cub Fan on Jun 15, 2008 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Loud Sustained Applause!!!!!!
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 15, 2008 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anytime, some people on this blog act pretty childish at times.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 15, 2008 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Madison Cub Fan thank you as well for the resource
i will use it from now on
by brownbuddha on Jun 15, 2008 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've found it makes things just so much easier.
b/c there seem to be new ones quite often
ps I wasnt trying to be snarky, if it came off that way Im sorry
by Madison Cub Fan on Jun 15, 2008 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally Agree
We have to make it to the Post Season before we can win it, the larger the lead we have going in to the end of the season the better, the Cards, Astros and Brews are not out of the game.
by brownbuddha on Jun 15, 2008 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That seals it.............
................for me. These stupid blogs. Why do people even think of sharing their ideas.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Jun 15, 2008 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's being sarcastic.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To some degree.
I mis-posted my response to brownbuddha in the main column.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Jun 15, 2008 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Clark Addison comments.
Yes, “Lou is doing something right”, but that doesn’t mean he’s not open to criticism, regardless of who’s getting paid.
Questioning the use of Marmol today is valid, whether the Cubs are up by 20 or dead last in the standings.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Jun 15, 2008 8:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i understand but who is qualified to say that Marmol is being overused
by brownbuddha on Jun 15, 2008 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is a matter of preserving the arms if possible...today was possible.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 15, 2008 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe we're all "qualified" to say that Marmol is being overused.
That doesn’t mean we’re all correct in saying so, but I think it’s a valid discussion point.
I’m torn on the subject. On the one hand, I’m definitely worried about the overuse of Marmol (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, Wood). And I agree that it would have made more sense to use Lieber to pitch most or all of the end of yesterday’s game.
On the other hand, I’m savoring the fact that the Chicago Cubs are 20 games above .500 right now, and I can’t help but wonder whether the team would be quite this successful if Lou hadn’t been “going for the throat” in almost every game.
He may also be concerned with the kind of negative psychological impact a “blown-lead loss” could have on the team. It looks like the Rockies are finally showing some signs of life now, but they remained pretty awful after leaving Wrigley a week or two ago. Maybe he’s just trying maintain the Cubs’ momentum—which seems to be a highly valued concept in baseball.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 16, 2008 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I'm torn, too.
I have not made up my mind on the issue. For example, the initial complaint here is – why bring in Marmol while up 6 runs, but I’m wondering (and haven’t checked this) if Lou is deciding to bring Marmol in on every day before an off day. I am also wondering if Lieber wasn’t brought in because Lou will stretch out Lieber in today’s HOF game.
by DGU on Jun 16, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
hadn’t thought of Leiber today.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he does not look like he is being overused, you dont think Carlos is capable of pitching
more then 100 innings in one season?
by brownbuddha on Jun 15, 2008 8:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The fact that Marmol..........
.........has a limited track record makes this more of a guessing game, but very few relief pitchers log more than 100 innings in a season.
Last year was Marmol’s first full season in the bullpen and he threw almost 70 innings in 59 games. He’s clearly on pace to blow past that mark, and if the 2007 NLDS is any indication of how he’ll hold up late in the season, the Cubs will be in trouble if they play in October.
And whether Marmol can or can’t go that often isn’t necessarily the point. The bottom line is, why use a guy if it’s not necessary. Let’s save Carlos for the times that are indeed critical.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Jun 15, 2008 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
once again...
he pitched more than 100 innings LAST SEASON.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
by which I mean to say
that you cannot exclude his minor-league innings from the equation.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough, but.............
.............I’m sure you would agree there’s a serious difference in the pressure and the manner of the innings pitched at the MLB level versus AAA.
Further, Marmol wasn’t in the “pressure cooker” situations until later in the 2007 season. Say what you want, but this has to have some impact on a player.
Again, why pitch him if you don’t have to? That’s my point.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Jun 15, 2008 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some people would like Cub pitchers to live in a plastic bubble...
...and only pitch on alternative leap years.
Rich Harden !! 8 starts, 3-0, 47 IP, 58 Ks, 2.85 ERA
by MDBNIU on Jun 15, 2008 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah, plastic bubble
doesn’t he almost lead the freakin league in IP? Plastic bubble my ass. It’s called proper mgmt of the pen. We all hate Dusty for ruining Prior ..why is this unnecessary use okay?
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 15, 2008 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who said it was unnecessary
and office manager, high school baseball coach, a beer truck driver, UPS guy/gal, a BLOGGER, or did LOU and LARRY
by brownbuddha on Jun 15, 2008 9:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren't you a blogger/
You know as much, or little as any of us so who’s to say we’re not correct in this matter?
Fact is, we are not mist trusting Lou, we are asking WHY DID MARMOL NEED TO BE USED TODAY?
Have you even attempted to answer this or just vehemently defend Lou as if we are attacking your own father on father’s day?
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 15, 2008 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i am not saying i know anything
but i am saying we should trust LOU in what he is doing and the desisions he makes, if he wants to pitch Marmol every day then that is what he wants to do, why this why that, why is Ronny not starting over Ryan, why dont we get A… or B…, why, I am giving my opinion just like you are, and they way everyone that thinks Lou is over using Carlos is coming off as Lou does not know what he is doing.
by brownbuddha on Jun 15, 2008 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said.
Something slightly ironic about one blogger telling another that, because he’s not a professional baseball man, his opinion is irrelevant.
by bluekoolaide on Jun 15, 2008 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks.
I trust most of Lou, this seems like a mistake IMO.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 15, 2008 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's a big mistake
to compare the overuse of Mark Prior to this use of Marmol. I just don’t think the situations are the same.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't...
many here complain about overuse…period. Question was, WHY did MArmol need to come in today?
6 RUN LEAD…
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 15, 2008 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because someone else would of cost use the game
by brownbuddha on Jun 15, 2008 10:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cost us the game?
Okay. I guess you are entitled to that opinion but 6 runs is hard to overcome. Not to mention, what someone else said, if they got into trouble, THEN bring in Marmol for what he should be used for, fireman.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 15, 2008 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And then a three run lead.
Marmol needed to come in because Lou wanted him to.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because
bring someone else in the 7th, and they gave up a hit and it’s a 7-3 games. In the 8th Neal Cotts gave up 2 run HR, and it could have been a 7-5 game. Then Wood struggles in the 9th and gave up a run. Without Marmol getting that last out in the 7th and the first two outs in the 8th, we could have very easily blown that lead. People act like the Blue Jays didn’t make any type of comeback today, and any scub could have pitched the final few innings.
Put it this way, what if Wuertz comes in and gives up a single and it’s 7-3, then in the 8th say he gives up a hit and gets taken out of the game for Neal Cotts. Then gives up a HR, which could have been a 3 run HR instead of a 2 run HR, and Wood could have gave up that run in the 9th, and blows the save. When Marmol hasn’t pitched that much in the last week, there’s nothing wrong with bringing him in this situation.
by cubsfan25 on Jun 15, 2008 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marmol
pitched well and kept this game from getting close, on a day when Wood, Cotts, and Eyre pitched poorly.
by cubsfan25 on Jun 15, 2008 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They all pitched poorly AFTER Marmol
that’s the freakin problem. If Someone else comes in that spot, the other pitchers MAY OAR MAY NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN IN THE GAME.
If Leiber pithces well in that spot, we probably don’t see ANYONE ELSE until the 9th.
Can’t assume how other pitchers will pitch. If Lou wants to, then we have a one man bullpen.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and if Lieber pitches badly
we might lose.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly!
Which is why I am not speculating in my posts. I am sharing AN OPINION which you are seemingly taking offense to. Lou will make mistakes, no matter how much smoke you blow up his ass.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
once again
you’re being insulting and offensive, when there’s absolutely no need for it.
Baseball is a game of trends. The trend, lately, has been that the bullpen, outside of Marmol and maybe Woody, is not establishing a level of competence that Lou trusts. Where are our 8-0 games? They aren’t. Because the pen gives up home-runs. Marmol is MUCH better keeping that from happening than other pitchers in our pen, with the possible exception of Eyre, and give his performance yesterday, I bet Eyre won’t get long work again for a while. Ironically, Lou did what everyone said they wanted - bring in Eyre and have him pitch to more than one batter. And he walked a couple, gave up a run, and BAM, he’s back to LOOGY status. Cotts has proven to be unreliable - he gave up the 2r hr.
I tend to agree with people—I think Lieber should have come in after Eyre, rather than Marmol. But the bullpen is not showing that they’re dependable!!!!
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay
I’m sorry if I offended you but your posts are anything but lacking veiled insults (I already pointed this out).
As for your comment. Eyre just ended a franchise record of scoreless innings. Cotts, according to many affilaited with the team as well as many of us fans, feel has found his stuff and has been throwing hard and effectively. Leiber, short of his poor start, has been good too.
This is a team 20 games over .500. I find it hard to believe that the bullpen is actually as bad as you seem to think.
That’s all.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's not get into this business about Dusty ruining
Prior. Are you a doctor? Do you know for certain that he is injured because of overuse or because of his other freaky injuries. I wouldn’t be so quick to condemn managers for pitcher injuries. Some guys are just prone to get hurt and all of the protecting won’t save them. Unless I see a gross overuse of a pitcher, I tend to trust professional baseball people more than amatuers on this one.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 15, 2008 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying that Dusty was
definitely responsible for prior’s breakdown but I have heard that among baseball insiders, he has a bad reputation for his handling of pitchers-i remember reading one GM saying that Dusty was “like a buzzsaw to young arms”
by bluekoolaide on Jun 15, 2008 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So why does..............
.................Lou HIMSELF say they need to watch Marmol’s innings???
Worse yet, why does he say this and yet do what he did today??
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Jun 15, 2008 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You pitch him because you know what you are getting
some of the other pitchers dont show up sometimes and walk players,
you play the game to win, everyone on this site wants to win, am i right, then play the player that gets you the win, and the larger the lead in the division then the more you can rest him, we are playing great right now why not ride it out and trust Lou and his judgement,
Carlos is a Major League Pitcher so let him pitch, and the next blog entry is why is Lou not playing Marmol and back and forth, or opinions right
by brownbuddha on Jun 15, 2008 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why not start Carlos Zambrano every game?
Play to win now (“now” defined as “today” not “the 2008 WS”)!
by DGU on Jun 15, 2008 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
becasue you cant start him every game
7 innings is different then one inning
by brownbuddha on Jun 15, 2008 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the cubs are to in the 2008 WS
unless there is something i dont know
by brownbuddha on Jun 15, 2008 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How to define "win now"
In a marathon you conserve resources to win on the last stride. In a marathon, you know that being the one ahead at the first quarter mile means nothing. Baseball is a marathon and this team is built to outpace the other NL Central teams by more than a few strides. So, if we could follow one of two strategies, which would you choose?
Strategy A: Win 100 games in the regular season and have a 10% chance of winning the WS
Strategy B: Win 95 games in the regular season and have a 20% chance of winning the WS
Is it wrong for a Cubs fan to be concerned that Lou seems to be using Strategy A?
by DGU on Jun 16, 2008 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great analogy!
I am bummed I didn’t think to use the marathon comparison.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not entirely sure it works that way
I think Lou wants confidence. Since he lacks confidence in his bullpen, I think he’s going to lean on his “in” guys to get as big a lead as possible NOW, so that he can rest them later.
And hopefully, Bobby Howry will get it together.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's with the "rest em later" argument?
That just makes no sense. If we need him so badly now, why will he be able to rest him later? The idea of a strong bullpen is to have them available all season long to pick up the offense or starting pitching for that matter, when the falter.
You are so adimant about me “not making assumptions” about you. Please try to refrain from making assumptions about what Bobby Howry will or will not be able to do. Good managing is managing for an entire WS run. Not managing for the moment. Lou, for the most part, does this. I just question his use of Marmol.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't make an assumption
about Howry. I said that I hoped he could get it together. Because the Bobby Howry we’ve seen so far this season is inconsistent.
You’re ignoring the potential logic of the situation. I think that Lou believes that if we can run away with the division, we can rest a bit more later.
And Marmol has not been as overused as you continue to insist he has been.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But
we don’t know how the others will pitch and all the hoping in the world changes not a thing.
And BTW, are we running away with this division?
Last I checked, 3.5 game lead is all we have, and very well may need Marmol all season long so overtaxing his arm now in what I think was an unnecessary circumstance, was a bad decision.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
argh
what is currently happening and what Lou wants to do may be two different things.
And why is it that you can assume that Lieber will pitch well in yesterday’s game - a supposition not very well supported - but I can’t assume that Howry will continue to be inconsistent—a supposition VERY well supported?
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say “you’re not allowed to assume that the bullpen is struggling” and then say “Lieber could have pitched the last three innings! Striking out the side! Every time! And be the catcher too!”
(that’s hyperbole, by the way.)
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's about managing resources.
Carlos can pitch every fifth day. I bet Gallagher can’t. And Marmol is a workhorse like Carlos is.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
he pitched over a hundred innings LAST year. I don’t see why it’s such a shock to think that he might THIS year.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marmol has not been pitching long;
I’m afraid we have leaned on the freshness of his arm withouth having a real idea of what he can and cannot do.
by DGU on Jun 16, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok.
that’s fair enough. Hopefully Lou knows what he’s doing.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As mentioned previously in this post............
...............when you are up by 7 runs with 9 outs left, the move to “stoppers” in the bullpen doesn’t make sense.
Why have our situational lefty, Scott Eyre, who just pitched Thu and Fri, come out in the 7th? Shouldn’t he be saved for a tighter situation?
Jon Lieber should have been the guy, and if he got into trouble THEN bring in the situational/stopper arms to address the situation at the time.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Jun 15, 2008 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BINGO!!!!!!!
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 15, 2008 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And by having Eyre pitch...........
..............and then seeing Eyre get into trouble, Lou effectively eliminated 2 other arms in the bullpen. No way Wuertz or Lieber are going to be seen in tight games, so why “waste” them without ever using them?
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Jun 15, 2008 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree with this
however, i think marmol will be fine, as noted by drewishdrew the guy pitched over 100 innings last year, why are we concerned? he used to be a starter, he can handle a large work load this year. and please dont cite one bad pitch in the playoffs and simply say that is the result of overuse during the season. if marmol had pitched just 70 innings last year, then we should be concerned about 100 this year. but that simply is not the case, he has built up arm strength.
The Aramis BB/K Watch: 34 walks to 34 strikeouts. Im not sure who the last Cub to have more bb's than k's was, but Im sure it was a very long time ago.
by kylejo on Jun 16, 2008 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, I do not know.
And I will listen to a lot of people say “I told you so” if Marmol burns out and we have big problems.
But Marmol pitches because Lou trusts him.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The bullpen
Carlos Marmol is going to get ridden hard this year. It’s a fact of life. If he was pitching for any other top flight playoff contender (e.g., Boston) it would be the same story. There has been nothing to suggest that Marmol is not up to the task of pitching in 85 ballgames. His slider remains crisp, his fastball solid and his composure on the mound sharp.
What needs to happen is for Bob Howry to step up. And I would like to see Jim Hendry and Lou Piniella get Jose Ascanio back up here as well.
Rich Harden !! 8 starts, 3-0, 47 IP, 58 Ks, 2.85 ERA
by MDBNIU on Jun 15, 2008 9:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Who would you send down to call up Ascanio? Keeping in mind we currently have a 12-man pitching staff.
Your candidates:
4 Patterson
5 Cedeno
6 Hoffpauir
17 Fontenot
32 Lieber
43 Wuertz
47 Eyre
48 Cotts
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
by northsider on Jun 15, 2008 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Michael Wuertz
Wuertz drives me nuts more than he makes me happy. He has market value too. It’s a risky move to trade away a bullpen arm, but I live what I saw out of Ascanio to be the long man in that Cub bullpen. He’s also got a real live wing.
Rich Harden !! 8 starts, 3-0, 47 IP, 58 Ks, 2.85 ERA
by MDBNIU on Jun 15, 2008 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's not sending him down
that’s trading him away. Wuertz has come through for us in the past. Ascanio is much more of an unknown quantity.
Oh, sorry. There I go again, basing my decision on statistics.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wuetz sems to have lost faith in his stuff. He is walking way
too many people because he seems to be afraid to get the ball near the plate.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 15, 2008 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow i agree with you on something
I think I just threw up a little.
by GoCubbies34 on Jun 15, 2008 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wuertz has enough service time
that he can refuse an assignment. He won’t be sent down.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jun 15, 2008 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Sending down Wuertz is not an option. Take his name off the list and try again.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 16, 2008 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, apparently no Ascanio for at least a while
“ASCANIO TAKES LEAVE: RH Jose Ascanio has left the team to return home to Venezuela where his brother was killed yesterday. No timetable has been set for his return to the team.”
Very sad, condolences to him and his family.
by ohboy on Jun 16, 2008 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aw man, that's terrible. The best to Jose and his family.
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
by northsider on Jun 16, 2008 1:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry to hear that bad news.
My thoughts with Jose and his family, too.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jun 16, 2008 7:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
Overall, I like most of the things Lou does as a manager, however, many of his bad moves have been covered up by great ball playing on the Cubs part. He needs to get his act together, he did a great job last year
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
by cubs199235 on Jun 15, 2008 10:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
...
or maybe he’s made the right moves, which have allowed his players to come through when they needed to in order to win the game.
I’m just saying, it’s an awfully broad brush we’re suddenly using here…
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2008 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
drew
i see that you are on the season ticket waiting list, i am#71,000 or so.
by brownbuddha on Jun 15, 2008 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah,
if I’m lucky, I’ll get to realize that I can’t afford season tickets in 20 years or so. :D
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just think how many fans would love to have this as a debate
Is a stud pitcher being used to much in winning games
by Madison Cub Fan on Jun 15, 2008 10:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Lou use of Marmol
has been fine the last week or two. Today was only the third inning Marmol pitched all week. I know we need to cut down on Marmol innings, but the guy still needs to pitch 2 or 3 innings a week or he won’t stay sharp. It’s almost like some fans don’t want him to pitch at all for a while even if the score is close. Marmol has pitched 7 innings this month, if Lou keeps him to around 12 innings this month it will be fine. I could understand people complaining about overusing Marmol early in the season, but Lou use of him as been fine lately. Lou’s in a no win situation with some of you people, if he puts in someone else and the Blue Jays get 4 or 5 runs and the Cubs end up blowing one of these games, all you will see is why didn’t he use Marmol and other stuff. The Cubs pen has blown very few games this year, so Piniella must be doing something right in managing it. It’s honestly funny that this kinda stuff is all fans have to complain about.
by cubsfan25 on Jun 15, 2008 11:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
word.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
1969 and 1978
Two years where two managers who at the time “must be doing something right” built big divisional leads by midseason, only to see their clubs stay home come October. Why, you may ask? Because Don Zimmer and Leo Durocher were so obsessed with winning every game that they sacrificed the health and strength of their teams by playing the same guys over and over. They were making pennant moves in June and July instead of keeping the troops fresh rested for the second half of the season.
I see Lou doing the same thing with Carlos Marmol, and he better stop lest he want the young man to wear down or, God forbid, sustain an arm injury that impacts his career and the chances of the 2008 Cubs.
by CaliCub on Jun 16, 2008 12:04 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Beautifully stated...
People here need to get over this statement I have made (among others). We are not saying Lou isn’t or hasn’t been a great magager. I love him at the helm. I simply did not think Marmol needed to come in with a big lead the way he did. People keep saying that Cotts this, and Eyre this, Woody this. If another pitcher comes in, there is NO WAY to predict what would have transpired.
It is not a valid argument to speculate what would have happened. My statement is an opinion, one in which I am entitled to. I happen to think I am correct that Lou did not need to use Marmol with a big lead. He is, IMO, to be used when the score is close and we need a stoppper. Not when one pitcher may be struggling.
On the other side of this, Lou has also left guys in too long before when I didn’t understand that. I don’t expect perfection from Lou…no one is perfect. I just saw an opportunity to perhaps let him rest for another day. Some people seem to feel that too much rest is bad for the kid. That makes absolutley no sense to me. Sorry.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"he better stop"?
heh. ok.
Lou is managing the team the best way he knows how. I’d rather have him go with his gut than be susceptible to the back-seat driving of fans…
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahh
the backseat driving of fans.
Hey pot, you’re black too! Whatever dude, you are just here to shoot down others opinions. Take a step back for a second and think about it. You think Lou does NOTHING wrong. I think he made a mistake with his reliever yesterday. You feel equipped and justified in telling ME I’m wrong (cause you are omnipotent apparently) yet when we disagree, you make snide remarks and veiled insults.
Real sound debate here.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're complaining about MY debate tactics
when yours seem to revolve around being an offensive boor?
Go ahead. Search on my username. You’ll see that I argue against Lou’s insistence on keeping Theriot as the starting ShortStop, and believe that Cedeno should play more. I’ve argued that Lieber should play more. I’ve argued that Fontenot should be sent down. Your statements are not backed up by facts. How Blue-Mike of you.
Stop being a boor simply because someone disagrees with you.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay.
Whatever you say drew. You are misrepresenting how you behave here and then projecting them on me because your fragile character has been damaged by ione of my comments.
You are the boor and now you are just annoyingly whiney.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you reap
what you sow.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's something you can sow.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and I might add
I don’t think he needs to STOP using Marmol so much. My opinion is this:
If the score is tight and we need to shut a team down…Lou has one option really. I sit through games sometimes and hope for a blowout solely for the reason of resting our young EXTREMELY VALUABLE arms.
If there is no blowout. Use em if you got em. You and I differ on what is a close score or even more, what warrants a “stopper”.
No solution will come of this pointless discussion.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are correct
that marmol did not NEED to be in the game and it was a curious choice. however, why are you so concerned about marmol being overused? if he had 100+ innings last year, why could he not do the same this year? especially when the guy is used to throwing 150+ innings the past few years.
The Aramis BB/K Watch: 34 walks to 34 strikeouts. Im not sure who the last Cub to have more bb's than k's was, but Im sure it was a very long time ago.
by kylejo on Jun 16, 2008 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the only reason
this discussion is pointless is because you won’t listen to the points.
1) Lou doesn’t trust the bullpen.
2) When Lou does trust the bullpen, they give up runs and make games closer than they need to be (See: Neil Cotts, etc.)
3) See #1.
Lou trusts Marmol. He does so because Marmol has EARNED his trust. Till the pen is able to show Lou that they, too, can perform on the limited basis he gives them, Marmol will still be his top reliever.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not ignoring them drew...
not AGREEING with them. last I checked that is my right but hey, stay up on your pedestal and tell me my opinion is wrong.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how can you not agree
with the concept the Lou doesn’t trust his bullpen? How is that not completely and utterly IN YOUR FACE OBVIOUS???
that doesn’t make it right. that doesn’t make it good. But it’s certainly OBVIOUS.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Did Lou tell you this in a private or something?
Lou may or may not trust the others in the pen. I could care less. My point is that there were other options available. Heck he brought in several other pitchers in the game so obviously he trusts someone else.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't even respond to this stuff anymore.
You’re not listening. I give up. You win. Feel better now?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You two need to get a talk radio show together, stat.
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
by northsider on Jun 16, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glad to see you agree with me!
Peace man. You got a little worked up over my opinion here, it appears. We have to agree to disagree. It is easy unless you have a problem with me in particular, in which case this whole discussion was misplaced agression.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course I was kidding about agreeing with me!
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
one guy dones not make a team
I dont want Carlos to get hurt or anything.
Who am I to judge myself.
by brownbuddha on Jun 16, 2008 12:11 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Pitchers are paid to pitch
There is nothing to suggest that Carlos Marmol’s physical health is being is unduly compromised. Marmol is a workhorse. And on a playoff contending team your primary set-up man is invariably going to be worked very hard. I’m sure his usage would be quite similar if he were pitching instead for the Cardinals, Angels or Red Sox.
Rich Harden !! 8 starts, 3-0, 47 IP, 58 Ks, 2.85 ERA
by MDBNIU on Jun 16, 2008 10:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
So we should wait until they get hurt to stop pitching them?
I don’t think you wait until your best relief pitcher starts to show signs of abuse before you start using him selectively. At that point it’s too late.
by Wreckard on Jun 16, 2008 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 and LSA and whatever else!
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
If MDBNIU were managing a major league team, every single pitcher on his staff would be worked till his arm fell off.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jun 16, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's how they did it at NIU back in '83.
Say, maybe that’s why their baseball program went under.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 16, 2008 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well you did play college ball for a second so...
I guess we are wrong!
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Overworked
I, too, worry that Marmol will get burnt out by August due to his workload and be less effective. I think Lou should avoid pitching him in a game like yesterday’s.
But too many people seem to believe that the simple act of pitching always leads to injury if it’s done “too much.” I’m not of this belief. I’m not saying Marmol won’t get hurt; I’m just saying it’s not a done deal that if he pitches, say, 100 innings this year he’ll come down with arm problems. It’s just not that simple. If it was, than Zambrano would have gone down a long time ago.
Certain pitchers are workhorses and can handle a big load without injury. Others aren’t. For now, Lou’s focus is on doing what’s needed to win games. That’s why Marmol comes in a lot. The same people on this board also criticize Baker because he let Prior start the 8th inning of Game 6 in 2003. They don’t understand – Prior was the ace. He was pitching great. In key situations, you go for the win and you don’t worry about what might happen in two years.
"Hey hey, kiss it goodbye! That one's in Milwaukee! Man oh man did he hit it. Isn't that something?" - Lou Boudreau, May 17, 1979
by danimal15 on Jun 16, 2008 12:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Big difference between going all out to win Game 6
and all out to win Game 70.
by DGU on Jun 16, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
WORD! Plus 1
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
if you don’t win game 70, you may never get to Game 6.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
MAY never.
point not taken Drew.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true, but
how worried are you really about the Cubs making the playoffs? I think we’re going to make the playoffs with a comfortable margin. Sure, anything can happen, but I look back at the rest of the NL Central and I see the same kind of teams that we Cub fans were following the past few years – teams with potential, but wracked by pitching injuries that hold them back. Meanwhile, we’ve got a guy in Lieber they’d all love to have in their rotations and he doesn’t pitch out of our ‘pen for a week, causing us to get all bent out of shape. Some of the argument in this thread has gotten a little heated, but isn’t it nice to be heated about winning now (“now” defined… oh, nevermind, you know).
by DGU on Jun 16, 2008 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it is DGU
Also, I want to add, I sincerely hope that I never get a chance to “I told you so” about Marmol. My petty arguments here mean nothing compared to the Cubs winning it all.
Enough said on my part I think.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me?
I’m not worried at all. Lou, however, seems to want to try to blow out the division NOW. Defined as yesterday. :D
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree however
Marmol will probably be fine with 100+ innings.
My issue is unnecessary usage. Yesterday IMO, qualified as one of those.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
-1
April 13 GP 16 IP
May 15 GP 18.2 IP
June 7 GP 7 IP
No multi-inning outings and being pitched every other day in June and he’s being overworked? I know logic and statistics have no meaning to you though. I never knew BlueMike had a sidekick.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jun 16, 2008 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
-1 back atcha.
Tell me something…
How many total innings has he pitched? How does that rank with the rest of the league? I believe he is in the top ten at the very least with 43. I know true logic means nothing to you though.
Oh and since you apparently cannot read either, BlueMike and I are disagreeing on this matter. But hey, what do obvious facts bring to a debate right?
SHWING!
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh also though
the Prior thing. Let him keep pitching, go out and talk him down a bit, he was young. That is what Dusty did wrong IMO.
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Game 70 vs. Game 6 of the playoffs
I didn’t mean to imply that I feel yesterday’s game was as important. I merely used Game Six as an example of a time when the manager had to go with his best pitcher in a key situation. There have been a number of key situations this year for the Cubs, and Marmol has almost always shined in these situations. If I’m the manager, he’s the guy I want on the mound every time the game is on the line and we need a reliever. But I don’t think he needs to pitch 90 games, because I can’t imagine he’ll be needed 90 times. Yesterday was a good example of a game in which he wasn’t needed.
"Hey hey, kiss it goodbye! That one's in Milwaukee! Man oh man did he hit it. Isn't that something?" - Lou Boudreau, May 17, 1979
by danimal15 on Jun 16, 2008 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear ya.
I think this discussion has just gotten a bit tedious. I’m tired!
How does that make you feel?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 16, 2008 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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