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Enough of Jason Marquis

Marqee-welcome-to-wrigley-field_tiny by lexmarklover on

I don't understand where Lou is going with Marquis. Everybody knows that Marquis will eventually show his flaws and become the pitcher that he was and is.

There are number of bad aspects about him:

1. He is extremely wild, will walk numerous people, and can never throw strikes when he needs to. (31 BB, 41 K)

2. He will give up 3 runs or more every outing. 9 out of his 15 starts, he has given up 3 runs or more.

3. He has mental breakdowns on the field occasional (ex. at San Diego, he walks the pitcher, balks him over, and allows him to score off of his error).

 

As far as I'm concerned, Rich Harden has to be the Cubs Number 1 Trade Target. No, it's not C.C. because there's no point in giving up prospects in order to have him for 2-3 months at most. Also, Rich Harden is arguably better than Sabathia.

Harden's ERA is 2.44, I know he has fewer starts but 5 runs is the most he has given up .

Sabathia ERA is 4.06, C.C. has given up 9 runs twice .

People will talk about Harden's injury status, and I know that this is a concern, but it's not like C.C. hasn't been injured either.

It would also take less prospects to get Harden. I'm not completely positive on this but I think Harden is signed through 2010 with an option in '10. Sabathia is a free agent after this year and I can guarentee that he will not re-sign with the Cubs.

The 1-2 combo of Zambrano and Harden is comparable to Webb and Haren I would say.

Getting Harden would help out Dempster and Lilly because it moves them down the rotation and allows them to face other teams 3's and 4's.

 

 

However, Jason Marquis's teams have always made the playoffs. Just a bit of info out there.


This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation, Bleed Cubbie Blue, or Al Yellon, editor-in-chief. FanPost opinions are, however, valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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No thanks on Harden...

Harden has only been healthy for 1 year (2004) and prior to this year had thrown only 200 innings in 2005-2007. Sabathia is the definition of a workhorse as he hasn’t thrown less then 180 inning in his career. Plus Harden will probably cost more due to the fact that he is signed long term and Sabathia walks at the end of the year.

by cubfan2201 on Jun 26, 2008 4:26 PM CDT   0 recs

10 straight starts...

and LOOK at his numbers. He is precisely what this ballclub needs. A true ace caliber pitcher to tag up with Carlos Zambrano. The Cubs will never be poised like they are poised in 2008 to win big. Lots of veterans at the zenith of their careers, getting great performances from Soto and Theriot, Wood healthy, etc….

GET RICH HARDEN>>>>

GET Rich Harden !!! 10 starts, 4-0, 59 IP, 72 Ks, 2.44 ERA !!!

by MDBNIU on Jun 26, 2008 5:19 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think that the Prior

experience has made everybody more than cautious. It won’t matter how many starts he has successfully without injury, people will still not want Harden.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Jun 26, 2008 5:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow! 10 Straight...

... It means nothing, except for the fact that he is due to get hurt.

If you can get a bargain on Harden, sure, go for it. But you don’t give up the farm for Prior-lite.

In the middle of a good time, Truth gave me her icy kiss. Look around, you must be joking. All that way, all that way for this -Oysterband

by Ross on Jun 26, 2008 5:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Screw it

GET BOTH!!

HARDEN AND CC

"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager

"Thats deep to left.....back back back HEY HEY!!! he did it attaboy Jimmy!!!!! woooooooo!!! tie game!! Thats for you Jack" Len Kasper 6/12/08

by Galvan316 on Jun 26, 2008 10:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

why stop there???

Call of Epstein about Beckett!!

2008 Cubs: Who needs nine innings, when you only need a 7th?

by Chanman25 on Jun 26, 2008 11:01 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Our rotation after the trade deadline...

Zambrano, Harden, Dempster, Burnett, Lilly
Backup: Gallagher

May be farfetched but thats what I would like to see….

DEROSA: How did it feel when you're sitting in Baton Rouge and it came across the ticker that Mark DeRosa had just signed to play second base with the Chicago Cubs.

THERIOT: In all honestly, when I saw it, I really felt like punching you right in the mouth and or breaking your leg.

by EJThunder on Jun 26, 2008 11:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Read my mind

Screw it, get both…great teams do what they gotta do to win a W.S.

Grant Earnhart

by ernie87 on Jun 27, 2008 5:13 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

At this point

I will go with Bluemike on Harden rather than Marquis. I am just not okay with giving up as much as I would for CC. I am pretty sure we will have to though so someone else is the wiser choice. He does have nice numbers over the last 10 starts.

C is rock solid though IMO. Give it al up for CC and then hope for an extension.

Calm down.

by Kinky Reggae on Jun 27, 2008 8:55 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Marquis No. 5; Harden On Contender

Marquis suffices for a #5 starter. He’s not good; he’s not terrible. That’s all you can expect from a #5 starter. I like Gallagher as a #4 guy more than Marquis. Skip Marquis in the rotation, if an off day in the schedule permits.

Oakland is only 5 games out of the division race and only 4.5 games out of the wild card race. How eager are the A’s to unload Harden when Oakland still has a chance to make the playoffs?

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jun 26, 2008 4:26 PM CDT   0 recs

Yeah Marquis is a true #5 starter.

Problem was, he was our #3 starter when we signed him. It’s sad, because Gallagher at 22 is so much better than Marquis and should be our #4.

My new life, my new world, and my beautiful daughter:
Kayla Davis: Due date (8-11-08)!

by Unique on Jun 26, 2008 4:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

My biggest complaint on Marquis

He is afraid to pitch to contact, which causes him to avoid the strike zone like the plague which leads to his walks. He is afraid to trust the rest of the team to back him up defensively, all he needs to do is execute pitches.

"Okay, just so I understand it...in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil."- Jim Halpert

by ryanbrixenivy on Jun 26, 2008 4:32 PM CDT   0 recs

good observation

When he challenges the batter and can pull himself together to focus on throwing strikes, occasionally, flashes of what he once was show through. The last couple of games he really looked like he was pitching his way out of a funk. It sounds from what I’m hearing that he’s slipped a notch. We’re stuck with him, I think .. unless there are teams out there who think they can work him through the block he’s trapped in.

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Jun 26, 2008 4:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

Calm down.

by Kinky Reggae on Jun 27, 2008 8:57 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yes

he simply does not know how to pitch. bottom line. he’s clueless.

The Aramis BB/K Watch: 41 BB to 51 K's. One walk to ten k's lately, though he's heating up so I'll take it!

by kylejo on Jun 27, 2008 12:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

that must have been from Cap'n Marceau...

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jun 26, 2008 9:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ye gads! You are right, matey.

And this begs the age-old pirate question: If someone walks the plank and no one is there to see it, does it make a sound?

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Jun 27, 2008 10:40 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Like Pat and Ron said today...

...the Cubs really need to add a frontline starting pitcher if this team is going to realize it’s best potential. Definition of a frontline starting pitcher is Rich Harden. Billy Beane is interested in moving him and the Cubs are trying to win a World Series for the first time in100 years. Make the move Jim Hendry, make the move. If you have to give up multiple top prospects then DO IT. The sooner the better.

GET Rich Harden !!! 10 starts, 4-0, 59 IP, 72 Ks, 2.44 ERA !!!

by MDBNIU on Jun 26, 2008 5:18 PM CDT   0 recs

But do you know what Beane is demanding

You do know Beane will DEMAND the same amount of prospects in return for Harden. Beane is a crafty GM who is not afraid to let players walk and would gladly take the composition picks once the players walk. You need to look from the view of the A’s, not from the view of a Cubs. Beane knows how desperate Hendry is for a SP, but he will not give away Harden for type B prospects.

Overall, it’s not even worth Hendry’s time to negotiate for Harden. Why? Because with the same amount of prospects you can TRY to acquire a healthier and more proven ace like Sabathia.

by Geo4MVP on Jun 26, 2008 5:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

HE HAS NO CLUE!!!!!!!

That is why his arguments are so illogical. Sure if Beane wants a couple of prospects that we can afford to gove up, pull the trigger.

Does anyone really think Beane is asking only this? Seriously.

Calm down.

by Kinky Reggae on Jun 27, 2008 8:58 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

what top prospects?

you keep saying all of our top prospects are trash. Surely, Beane would listen to a smart, informed, logical, former college player like you.

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 9:30 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Enough of Rich Harden

Even if he were not a walking infirmary what in the world makes people think the
A’s will trade when they are in the HUNT and have an option for 09 ? Personally I think
we should tell Hendry to get Edison Volquez and if he can’t he is a worthless GM. I know
it has been pointed out countless times to Blue Mike and his ilk but the idea that the Cubs have the goods to get an “A” starter if one is EVEN AVAILABLE are laughable. Most team can do just about as well with their compensation draft picks then we might offer. I don’t think are trading chips are worthless but the ain’t gonna get you CC , Harden or probably not even Cook ( not sure on his contract status). Most realistic thing the Cubs can do is go fishing for better , more reliable 3-5 starters, Wolf definately, Padilla might become available and some others.
Stop making stuff up about how the Cubs can get guys who very likely WILL NOT BE
TRADED AT ALL.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 5:21 PM CDT   0 recs

The Cubs have a

unique combination of prospects that could offer for a 1a or 2 solid starter. If you don’t think the Indians are going to trade C.C., you are delusional. Shapiro will never let Sabathia just walk away. Harden will likely be available also, Beane has shown in the past, that he will do just about any trade, even if the fan-base thinks it daft. The cubs have money and prospects to burn, especially for this chance to get to the WS in 2008.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Jun 26, 2008 5:28 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

A combination of type B prospects overall

Gallagher may be the only type A (and proven) prospect within the Cubs system. Vitters will not be traded since he is injured, Colvin has been struggling, and Pie’s value has taken some damage. But who knows, the Indians might take quantity over quality of prospects, but I doubt it, Might as well try, but there are other teams that can beat the Cubs offer EASILY.

by Geo4MVP on Jun 26, 2008 5:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

CC MAY be traded

Harden won’t ( unless Billy knows he is going down again). Gallagher is probably are best chip but
no where near enough by himself. The ONLY way the Cubs get CC is if the Yankees, Red Sox,
Brewers, Rays, Mets, and about 6 other teams are not at all interested.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 5:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

There's no way the Reds will trade Volquez.

They gave up the possible AL MVP for him. He’s young and won’t be eligible for free agency for at least three more years. Forget it.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 26, 2008 8:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

joke?

I think it was a joke and a dig on Blue Mike to mention trading for Volquez. :)

by jeff_pico on Jun 26, 2008 8:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh, I get it.

Long day.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 26, 2008 8:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

A REALLY LONG DAY

Um jeez if I suggested we turn down Maddux if he asked to come back maybe
you get it. Get some sleep.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 10:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I hadn't seen that ugly of a ballgame in a while...

...and I’ll be glad to miss one like it again.

Yes, Marquis is Marquis and think we all knew what we were getting when they signed him. He is a well paid #5 starter and unless someone out there really wants to get rid of talent to bolster our rotation I think he’ll stay our #5 starter (can you even imagine him in the bullpen?! – yikes).

I have no response to that.

by stelmodad on Jun 26, 2008 5:39 PM CDT   0 recs

I can imagine him

sitting in the bull-pen. I can’t imagine him actually getting up to come into the game in a critical situation.

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 9:35 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, let's not forget that Marquis,

for all his shortcomings, is an experienced….....

and talented…...

PINCH RUNNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by crazymountain on Jun 27, 2008 11:36 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Rich Harden is the # 1 target, AJ Burnett is the # 2

GET Rich Harden !!! 10 starts, 4-0, 59 IP, 72 Ks, 2.44 ERA !!!

by MDBNIU on Jun 26, 2008 5:40 PM CDT   0 recs

Why do you want those two over

Sabathia and/or Greinke? I’d say Greinke is my top choice.

by DGU on Jun 26, 2008 5:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I keep asking......

Where is it reported that Greinke is available? His name keeps coming up. Let’s throw Volquez out there while we are at it.

by rlpete on Jun 26, 2008 7:29 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

In your fantasy league ?

Cubs have no interest in Burnett according to mlbrumors web site and no sitings at all that
Harden is even remotely available. Cubs have been constantly mentioned in the CC Mix but
that group changes daily.
What are you going to do with yourself on August 1 with no Harden ?

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 5:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Exactly

Beane COULD trade Harden unless he is blown away with a strong offer (like the MArienr’s offer for Bedard). However, at this point the A’s are not out of the race.

by Geo4MVP on Jun 26, 2008 5:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hope that he cleared waivers?

Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager

by northsider on Jun 27, 2008 2:00 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Marquis > Burnett

seriously, even after today’s game, I’d take Marquis over Burnett

2008 Cubs: Who needs nine innings, when you only need a 7th?

by Chanman25 on Jun 26, 2008 6:07 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess you want to load up the DL.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 26, 2008 8:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

if they're on the DL

they can’t lose games!

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 9:35 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

But they can't win them, either.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 27, 2008 10:10 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah, but it keeps their ERA down, they can't hit a batsman...

Secretly, Blue-Mike likes seeing all those zeros…

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 10:15 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It is a well known fact

that pitchers who do not pitch, do not give up any runs

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jun 27, 2008 10:20 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Just like

hitters who do not hit, never strike-out.

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 11:16 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Also,

baserunners who never attempt steals cannot be caught stealing

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jun 27, 2008 11:23 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

catchers

who don’t attempt to make plays at the plate will never be run over by Prince Fielder…

unless they’re in front of him at the Chinese Buffet.

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 11:27 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The VEGETARIAN Chinese buffet, of course.

“Hm, this veggie chow mein looks good. I think I’ll…OH MY GOD, NO!!!!”

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Jun 27, 2008 11:34 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So, MDBNIU.....

been watching Scrubs on WGN? Harden and Burnett are suited for guest shots on that show…...oh, I forgot…the show is satirical…..as are the thoughts that Harden and Burnett are worth putting in the Cubs rotation…..maybe if they changed and threw Left Handed, there would be less risk of a surgeon getting them before the playoffs…...

by crazymountain on Jun 27, 2008 11:40 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Some of those Type B's

could be really attractive to the Indians. These other teams, (if you are talking about the Brewers), have no reason to even realistically try to get Sabathia. The Brewers are interested mainly to drive up the price for the Cubs & Angels. Most other teams won’t have the dollars to sign Sabathia. The Cubs have a unique combination of money & prospects.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Jun 26, 2008 5:41 PM CDT   0 recs

The Phillies can beat the Cubs offer

And they can also afford him.

You need to know where the Indians are coming from. They want to WIN next year. They have so much talent on their team that they will look for next year immediate help. They have holes on their team that they will most likely look for type A prospects who could be ready next yr. Gallagher is a good starting point, but unless E-Patt can prove to be consistent, the Cubs will have tough competition. I wish Shapiro turns down quality for quantity (like how the Twins did for Santana), but they are in a different position than the Twins. Unlike them, they have a strong core that they want to take advantage of by next year.

by Geo4MVP on Jun 26, 2008 5:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

the phils?

who are these fabled top prospects the phils have?

The Aramis BB/K Watch: 41 BB to 51 K's. One walk to ten k's lately, though he's heating up so I'll take it!

by kylejo on Jun 27, 2008 1:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

How exactly could the Cubs sign CC ?

Certainly not until AFTER a sale which is totally up in the air. You think Zell is going to let them offer
him a 120 million dollar contract ? IF you think the Cubs should trade everything but the kitchen sink
for CC ( which I still don’t believe is enough) to win it all now I understand but don’t delude yourself that
they could or would keep him.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 5:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The Tribune has given Hendry the green light to spend $$$

But you are right, it’s a risk to even try to resign him considering the Redsox/Yanks can offer much more. The Phillies can also offer alot more considering they have money freed up for next year.

by Geo4MVP on Jun 26, 2008 5:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

They have given him the green to add some payroll THIS YEAR

They are not going to allow to go for a 100 million plus sign and trade which is probably
does not matter as the Indians have said they will NOT give a negotiating window so you
have to assume he is a rental and IF new ownership is in place in time they can bid on him
after the season is over.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 6:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The Indians might change their mind from what I read

They might give one, but regardless its a risk trying to sign him. I wouldn’t mind having two composition picks if Sabathia walks, but I don’t know if Hendry wants do that.

by Geo4MVP on Jun 26, 2008 6:07 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

why not?

the cubs are cashing in like never before, there is no reason this team cant have a payroll as high as the red sox. open up the wallet folks!

The Aramis BB/K Watch: 41 BB to 51 K's. One walk to ten k's lately, though he's heating up so I'll take it!

by kylejo on Jun 27, 2008 1:09 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

We don't need to sign CC if we get two plum picks in a deep 2009 draft.

Honestly ask ourselves this – how likely is Lou to make crucial and/or ongoing use of the prospects we would trade? So, if most prospects aren’t worth much to us right now, then why not trade 3 prospects who are close to ready for CC and two prospects that will be ready when we’ll use prospects again later?

by DGU on Jun 26, 2008 6:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Um what makes you think the Indians are not thinking the same ?

As in keeping CC and getting the two plum picks themselves ?

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 6:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sell by date

A lot of our tradeable pieces are ready now. The Indians are a team built to win now. We can trade them Pie, Marshall, Gallagher, Patterson, or various relief arms who can all play now now. Then there’s Veal, Hill, Ceda, etc. who can all play now as in 2009.

The Indians do not have Lou’s mindset. It took them two months to give up on Franklin Gutierrez and 10 weeks to give up on Asdrubal Cabrera this year. They’d give players we gave up on a longer leash.

by DGU on Jun 26, 2008 7:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Um ok let me get this straight

They trade CC for Gallagher, Pie , Cedeno, Marshall or whatever and that
makes them ready to win when ? This year ? Next Year ?
Again if NO other team wants him we can give them some guys but you just
can’t seriously believe we can top the Red Sox and others

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 7:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I can seriously believe

that the other ML teams are likely to value their prospects more than we value ours. If the Red Sox offered Buchholz, Bowden, Anderson and Ellsbury, we can’t compete, but the Red Sox won’t offer that. If the Yankees offered Hughes, Tabata, and Jackson, we can’t compete, but the Yankees won’t offer that.

The Dodgers may be willing to go all in and the Brewers can offer some surprising packages, but the question is – will they? The one thing we know is that we will offer all those players you mentioned and more.

by DGU on Jun 26, 2008 8:19 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd rather take him on as a rental...

...and get the draft picks then to sign him after the trade. Let the Yankees or whoever take on his salary.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 26, 2008 7:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

CC is fantastic, but I’m not sure there’s any pitcher in the majors I’d be willing to do a 5 or 6 year deal for. Too much risk, especially for a man of such, shall we say, girth.

by Wreckard on Jun 27, 2008 10:00 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You mean like Carlos Zambrano was last year?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 27, 2008 10:11 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, yes, NOW there is.

Maybe CC would lose some weight, too, next offseason.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 27, 2008 10:48 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Don't get me wrong...

There are worse things we could do than sign a 27-year old dominant starter to a 5 or 6 year contract.

I certainly won’t call Hendry any names if we trade for him and then extend him; I’m just saying if I was the GM I would be too scared of the risk. You’d think if CC was going to lose the weight he would have done it this year, his walk year.

by Wreckard on Jun 27, 2008 11:03 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Z didn't, last year.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 27, 2008 12:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs