Enough of Jason Marquis
I don't understand where Lou is going with Marquis. Everybody knows that Marquis will eventually show his flaws and become the pitcher that he was and is.
There are number of bad aspects about him:
1. He is extremely wild, will walk numerous people, and can never throw strikes when he needs to. (31 BB, 41 K)
2. He will give up 3 runs or more every outing. 9 out of his 15 starts, he has given up 3 runs or more.
3. He has mental breakdowns on the field occasional (ex. at San Diego, he walks the pitcher, balks him over, and allows him to score off of his error).
As far as I'm concerned, Rich Harden has to be the Cubs Number 1 Trade Target. No, it's not C.C. because there's no point in giving up prospects in order to have him for 2-3 months at most. Also, Rich Harden is arguably better than Sabathia.
Harden's ERA is 2.44, I know he has fewer starts but 5 runs is the most he has given up .
Sabathia ERA is 4.06, C.C. has given up 9 runs twice .
People will talk about Harden's injury status, and I know that this is a concern, but it's not like C.C. hasn't been injured either.
It would also take less prospects to get Harden. I'm not completely positive on this but I think Harden is signed through 2010 with an option in '10. Sabathia is a free agent after this year and I can guarentee that he will not re-sign with the Cubs.
The 1-2 combo of Zambrano and Harden is comparable to Webb and Haren I would say.
Getting Harden would help out Dempster and Lilly because it moves them down the rotation and allows them to face other teams 3's and 4's.
However, Jason Marquis's teams have always made the playoffs. Just a bit of info out there.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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No thanks on Harden...
Harden has only been healthy for 1 year (2004) and prior to this year had thrown only 200 innings in 2005-2007. Sabathia is the definition of a workhorse as he hasn’t thrown less then 180 inning in his career. Plus Harden will probably cost more due to the fact that he is signed long term and Sabathia walks at the end of the year.
10 straight starts...
and LOOK at his numbers. He is precisely what this ballclub needs. A true ace caliber pitcher to tag up with Carlos Zambrano. The Cubs will never be poised like they are poised in 2008 to win big. Lots of veterans at the zenith of their careers, getting great performances from Soto and Theriot, Wood healthy, etc….
GET RICH HARDEN>>>>
GET Rich Harden !!! 10 starts, 4-0, 59 IP, 72 Ks, 2.44 ERA !!!
I think that the Prior
experience has made everybody more than cautious. It won’t matter how many starts he has successfully without injury, people will still not want Harden.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jun 26, 2008 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow! 10 Straight...
... It means nothing, except for the fact that he is due to get hurt.
If you can get a bargain on Harden, sure, go for it. But you don’t give up the farm for Prior-lite.
In the middle of a good time, Truth gave me her icy kiss. Look around, you must be joking. All that way, all that way for this -Oysterband
Screw it
GET BOTH!!
HARDEN AND CC
"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager
"Thats deep to left.....back back back HEY HEY!!! he did it attaboy Jimmy!!!!! woooooooo!!! tie game!! Thats for you Jack" Len Kasper 6/12/08
why stop there???
Call of Epstein about Beckett!!
2008 Cubs: Who needs nine innings, when you only need a 7th?
Our rotation after the trade deadline...
Zambrano, Harden, Dempster, Burnett, Lilly
Backup: Gallagher
May be farfetched but thats what I would like to see….
DEROSA: How did it feel when you're sitting in Baton Rouge and it came across the ticker that Mark DeRosa had just signed to play second base with the Chicago Cubs.
THERIOT: In all honestly, when I saw it, I really felt like punching you right in the mouth and or breaking your leg.
At this point
I will go with Bluemike on Harden rather than Marquis. I am just not okay with giving up as much as I would for CC. I am pretty sure we will have to though so someone else is the wiser choice. He does have nice numbers over the last 10 starts.
C is rock solid though IMO. Give it al up for CC and then hope for an extension.
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 27, 2008 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Marquis No. 5; Harden On Contender
Marquis suffices for a #5 starter. He’s not good; he’s not terrible. That’s all you can expect from a #5 starter. I like Gallagher as a #4 guy more than Marquis. Skip Marquis in the rotation, if an off day in the schedule permits.
Oakland is only 5 games out of the division race and only 4.5 games out of the wild card race. How eager are the A’s to unload Harden when Oakland still has a chance to make the playoffs?
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
Yeah Marquis is a true #5 starter.
Problem was, he was our #3 starter when we signed him. It’s sad, because Gallagher at 22 is so much better than Marquis and should be our #4.
My new life, my new world, and my beautiful daughter:
Kayla Davis: Due date (8-11-08)!
My biggest complaint on Marquis
He is afraid to pitch to contact, which causes him to avoid the strike zone like the plague which leads to his walks. He is afraid to trust the rest of the team to back him up defensively, all he needs to do is execute pitches.
"Okay, just so I understand it...in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil."- Jim Halpert
good observation
When he challenges the batter and can pull himself together to focus on throwing strikes, occasionally, flashes of what he once was show through. The last couple of games he really looked like he was pitching his way out of a funk. It sounds from what I’m hearing that he’s slipped a notch. We’re stuck with him, I think .. unless there are teams out there who think they can work him through the block he’s trapped in.
Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!
Arggh, a Pirate Graybar with nothing to say!! Shiver me timbers!
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
Ye gads! You are right, matey.
And this begs the age-old pirate question: If someone walks the plank and no one is there to see it, does it make a sound?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Like Pat and Ron said today...
...the Cubs really need to add a frontline starting pitcher if this team is going to realize it’s best potential. Definition of a frontline starting pitcher is Rich Harden. Billy Beane is interested in moving him and the Cubs are trying to win a World Series for the first time in100 years. Make the move Jim Hendry, make the move. If you have to give up multiple top prospects then DO IT. The sooner the better.
GET Rich Harden !!! 10 starts, 4-0, 59 IP, 72 Ks, 2.44 ERA !!!
But do you know what Beane is demanding
You do know Beane will DEMAND the same amount of prospects in return for Harden. Beane is a crafty GM who is not afraid to let players walk and would gladly take the composition picks once the players walk. You need to look from the view of the A’s, not from the view of a Cubs. Beane knows how desperate Hendry is for a SP, but he will not give away Harden for type B prospects.
Overall, it’s not even worth Hendry’s time to negotiate for Harden. Why? Because with the same amount of prospects you can TRY to acquire a healthier and more proven ace like Sabathia.
HE HAS NO CLUE!!!!!!!
That is why his arguments are so illogical. Sure if Beane wants a couple of prospects that we can afford to gove up, pull the trigger.
Does anyone really think Beane is asking only this? Seriously.
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 27, 2008 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions
what top prospects?
you keep saying all of our top prospects are trash. Surely, Beane would listen to a smart, informed, logical, former college player like you.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Contradiction. Repetition.Contradiction. Repetition.Contradiction. Repetition.Contradiction. Repetition.Contradiction. Repetition.
Contradiction. Repetition.Contradiction. Repetition.
Contradiction. Repetition.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Enough of Rich Harden
Even if he were not a walking infirmary what in the world makes people think the
A’s will trade when they are in the HUNT and have an option for 09 ? Personally I think
we should tell Hendry to get Edison Volquez and if he can’t he is a worthless GM. I know
it has been pointed out countless times to Blue Mike and his ilk but the idea that the Cubs have the goods to get an “A” starter if one is EVEN AVAILABLE are laughable. Most team can do just about as well with their compensation draft picks then we might offer. I don’t think are trading chips are worthless but the ain’t gonna get you CC , Harden or probably not even Cook ( not sure on his contract status). Most realistic thing the Cubs can do is go fishing for better , more reliable 3-5 starters, Wolf definately, Padilla might become available and some others.
Stop making stuff up about how the Cubs can get guys who very likely WILL NOT BE
TRADED AT ALL.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
The Cubs have a
unique combination of prospects that could offer for a 1a or 2 solid starter. If you don’t think the Indians are going to trade C.C., you are delusional. Shapiro will never let Sabathia just walk away. Harden will likely be available also, Beane has shown in the past, that he will do just about any trade, even if the fan-base thinks it daft. The cubs have money and prospects to burn, especially for this chance to get to the WS in 2008.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jun 26, 2008 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions
A combination of type B prospects overall
Gallagher may be the only type A (and proven) prospect within the Cubs system. Vitters will not be traded since he is injured, Colvin has been struggling, and Pie’s value has taken some damage. But who knows, the Indians might take quantity over quality of prospects, but I doubt it, Might as well try, but there are other teams that can beat the Cubs offer EASILY.
CC MAY be traded
Harden won’t ( unless Billy knows he is going down again). Gallagher is probably are best chip but
no where near enough by himself. The ONLY way the Cubs get CC is if the Yankees, Red Sox,
Brewers, Rays, Mets, and about 6 other teams are not at all interested.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions
There's no way the Reds will trade Volquez.
They gave up the possible AL MVP for him. He’s young and won’t be eligible for free agency for at least three more years. Forget it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Oh, I get it.
Long day.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
A REALLY LONG DAY
Um jeez if I suggested we turn down Maddux if he asked to come back maybe
you get it. Get some sleep.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I hadn't seen that ugly of a ballgame in a while...
...and I’ll be glad to miss one like it again.
Yes, Marquis is Marquis and think we all knew what we were getting when they signed him. He is a well paid #5 starter and unless someone out there really wants to get rid of talent to bolster our rotation I think he’ll stay our #5 starter (can you even imagine him in the bullpen?! – yikes).
I have no response to that.
I can imagine him
sitting in the bull-pen. I can’t imagine him actually getting up to come into the game in a critical situation.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, let's not forget that Marquis,
for all his shortcomings, is an experienced….....
and talented…...
PINCH RUNNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by crazymountain on Jun 27, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Rich Harden is the # 1 target, AJ Burnett is the # 2
GET Rich Harden !!! 10 starts, 4-0, 59 IP, 72 Ks, 2.44 ERA !!!
I keep asking......
Where is it reported that Greinke is available? His name keeps coming up. Let’s throw Volquez out there while we are at it.
In your fantasy league ?
Cubs have no interest in Burnett according to mlbrumors web site and no sitings at all that
Harden is even remotely available. Cubs have been constantly mentioned in the CC Mix but
that group changes daily.
What are you going to do with yourself on August 1 with no Harden ?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Marquis > Burnett
seriously, even after today’s game, I’d take Marquis over Burnett
2008 Cubs: Who needs nine innings, when you only need a 7th?
I guess you want to load up the DL.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
if they're on the DL
they can’t lose games!
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions
But they can't win them, either.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
yeah, but it keeps their ERA down, they can't hit a batsman...
Secretly, Blue-Mike likes seeing all those zeros…
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
It is a well known fact
that pitchers who do not pitch, do not give up any runs
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jun 27, 2008 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Just like
hitters who do not hit, never strike-out.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Also,
baserunners who never attempt steals cannot be caught stealing
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jun 27, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
catchers
who don’t attempt to make plays at the plate will never be run over by Prince Fielder…
unless they’re in front of him at the Chinese Buffet.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
The VEGETARIAN Chinese buffet, of course.
“Hm, this veggie chow mein looks good. I think I’ll…OH MY GOD, NO!!!!”
Nanika Ga Okoru!
So, MDBNIU.....
been watching Scrubs on WGN? Harden and Burnett are suited for guest shots on that show…...oh, I forgot…the show is satirical…..as are the thoughts that Harden and Burnett are worth putting in the Cubs rotation…..maybe if they changed and threw Left Handed, there would be less risk of a surgeon getting them before the playoffs…...
by crazymountain on Jun 27, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Some of those Type B's
could be really attractive to the Indians. These other teams, (if you are talking about the Brewers), have no reason to even realistically try to get Sabathia. The Brewers are interested mainly to drive up the price for the Cubs & Angels. Most other teams won’t have the dollars to sign Sabathia. The Cubs have a unique combination of money & prospects.
Jimmyeatworld
The Phillies can beat the Cubs offer
And they can also afford him.
You need to know where the Indians are coming from. They want to WIN next year. They have so much talent on their team that they will look for next year immediate help. They have holes on their team that they will most likely look for type A prospects who could be ready next yr. Gallagher is a good starting point, but unless E-Patt can prove to be consistent, the Cubs will have tough competition. I wish Shapiro turns down quality for quantity (like how the Twins did for Santana), but they are in a different position than the Twins. Unlike them, they have a strong core that they want to take advantage of by next year.
the phils?
who are these fabled top prospects the phils have?
The Aramis BB/K Watch: 41 BB to 51 K's. One walk to ten k's lately, though he's heating up so I'll take it!
How exactly could the Cubs sign CC ?
Certainly not until AFTER a sale which is totally up in the air. You think Zell is going to let them offer
him a 120 million dollar contract ? IF you think the Cubs should trade everything but the kitchen sink
for CC ( which I still don’t believe is enough) to win it all now I understand but don’t delude yourself that
they could or would keep him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions
The Tribune has given Hendry the green light to spend $$$
But you are right, it’s a risk to even try to resign him considering the Redsox/Yanks can offer much more. The Phillies can also offer alot more considering they have money freed up for next year.
They have given him the green to add some payroll THIS YEAR
They are not going to allow to go for a 100 million plus sign and trade which is probably
does not matter as the Indians have said they will NOT give a negotiating window so you
have to assume he is a rental and IF new ownership is in place in time they can bid on him
after the season is over.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions
The Indians might change their mind from what I read
They might give one, but regardless its a risk trying to sign him. I wouldn’t mind having two composition picks if Sabathia walks, but I don’t know if Hendry wants do that.
why not?
the cubs are cashing in like never before, there is no reason this team cant have a payroll as high as the red sox. open up the wallet folks!
The Aramis BB/K Watch: 41 BB to 51 K's. One walk to ten k's lately, though he's heating up so I'll take it!
We don't need to sign CC if we get two plum picks in a deep 2009 draft.
Honestly ask ourselves this – how likely is Lou to make crucial and/or ongoing use of the prospects we would trade? So, if most prospects aren’t worth much to us right now, then why not trade 3 prospects who are close to ready for CC and two prospects that will be ready when we’ll use prospects again later?
Um what makes you think the Indians are not thinking the same ?
As in keeping CC and getting the two plum picks themselves ?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Sell by date
A lot of our tradeable pieces are ready now. The Indians are a team built to win now. We can trade them Pie, Marshall, Gallagher, Patterson, or various relief arms who can all play now now. Then there’s Veal, Hill, Ceda, etc. who can all play now as in 2009.
The Indians do not have Lou’s mindset. It took them two months to give up on Franklin Gutierrez and 10 weeks to give up on Asdrubal Cabrera this year. They’d give players we gave up on a longer leash.
Um ok let me get this straight
They trade CC for Gallagher, Pie , Cedeno, Marshall or whatever and that
makes them ready to win when ? This year ? Next Year ?
Again if NO other team wants him we can give them some guys but you just
can’t seriously believe we can top the Red Sox and others
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I can seriously believe
that the other ML teams are likely to value their prospects more than we value ours. If the Red Sox offered Buchholz, Bowden, Anderson and Ellsbury, we can’t compete, but the Red Sox won’t offer that. If the Yankees offered Hughes, Tabata, and Jackson, we can’t compete, but the Yankees won’t offer that.
The Dodgers may be willing to go all in and the Brewers can offer some surprising packages, but the question is – will they? The one thing we know is that we will offer all those players you mentioned and more.
I'd rather take him on as a rental...
...and get the draft picks then to sign him after the trade. Let the Yankees or whoever take on his salary.
I agree
CC is fantastic, but I’m not sure there’s any pitcher in the majors I’d be willing to do a 5 or 6 year deal for. Too much risk, especially for a man of such, shall we say, girth.
You mean like Carlos Zambrano was last year?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Well, yes, NOW there is.
Maybe CC would lose some weight, too, next offseason.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Don't get me wrong...
There are worse things we could do than sign a 27-year old dominant starter to a 5 or 6 year contract.
I certainly won’t call Hendry any names if we trade for him and then extend him; I’m just saying if I was the GM I would be too scared of the risk. You’d think if CC was going to lose the weight he would have done it this year, his walk year.
Z didn't, last year.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Two questions?
Does getting Harden (or whomever) mean Marquis is out? I doubt it. Marquis is in because of his contract. Trade Marquis now – and Jon Lieber steps in and instantly makes the rotation better.
Marquis is UNTRADABLE
Unless you pick at least 80% of his contract which I think would be about 12 Million. I am not saying it
won’t come to that but that is the best you can hope for.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I got some change in my pocket
let’s pool what we got, see if we can buy him ourselves.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Sam Zell will be in touch w/you soon to get those funds wired to the Tribune Company...
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
Oh, the other question - which I forgot above
How much are you willing to give for Harden? I don’t think we get a single frontline pitcher w/o giving up Gallagher. Are you willing to trade for Harden if doing so means you are stuck with Marquis as your #5?
Harden is a BIG risk, plain and simple
Too risky and too stupid to go for him. The questions you ask would be big problems for the Cubs and it would continue and on and on. What happens if he gets injured? What happens to the farm system for next year and the year after that! Don’t think only about now, think also for the future. Be smart, not desperate. Hendry needs to play smart and aggressive, but not go beyond the limits.
Makes you wish
we would have traded Rich Hill before the season started, when he was considered a “major league” pitcher.
by cubbieson44th on Jun 26, 2008 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions
What the Sam Hill...
... is going on with Rich Hill?
Still striking up batters, averaging more than 1 per IP. But he’s walking just about as many.
We had a long discussion about Hill within the last week.
Can’t find it right now, but the summary is: Hill appears to have Steve Blass Disease and has been shut down for now. I wouldn’t expect to see him back in the major leagues this year.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I get accused of a lot of things here ...
... but I certainly do NOT celebrate Hill’s troubles. I wasn’t aware that he was shut down.
I wish Rich Hill the best, so long as it’s not against the Sox.
+1
i can understand spending money and going for trades, but who says we have to go about it in a way where we are almost panicking it seems like. As cubs fans we all want the much awaited championship but cant get greedy over things to happen right now. Selling the farm as Geo4 says only hurts us in the long run. I dont want to revert to a 2006 season where we were atrocious within a year or two. Lets think long term here and keep our chances rolling for a few years instead of tossing it out the window thinking this is our only shot. I agree it is our best shot this year, none of us could doubt that probably. Harden is a tough one because beane will pull out as much as possible from Hendry because of how desperate we seem. I’d like to stay clear of him just for that reason, not because of Harden himself, i agree he’s a great pitcher despite the injuries.
by maddux1-27-07 on Jun 26, 2008 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I've been hearing about building for the future since the mid-seventies...
how has that worked out so far? There’s nothing greedy about wanting the Cubs to do everything they can to have the best possible chance at their first championship in 100 years. I’ve got news for you, sometimes you have to role the dice and go for broke. An opportunity lik ethis might not come around again for a long time. There’s basically no prospect i would say is untouchable right now in the right deal.
by bluekoolaide on Jun 26, 2008 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I could not agree
more! In my opinion this is best Cub’s team since 1984 and if they are going to try and win it they need another frontline starter. There should be NO Untouchables!!! Just making the playoffs won’t get it done!
I'm sure
we could get CC for Lee and Ramirez and Z.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Marquis being #5 is not contingent on Gallagher getting traded or not.
Either way we’re stuck with Marquis. I’d prefer a rotation that adds somebody like Harden or Sabathia at #2, lets Dempster and Lilly slide down and has Marquis as the #5 to one we have now where Dempster/Lilly are 2 and 3, Gallagher’s 4 and Marquis is 5, anyway.
didn’t marquis win his last 5 starts before today? i agree that we need another top-notch starter (and that marquis may be the odd man out if this happens), but it’s funny how a few days ago eric patterson was the savior of baseball and now marquis should be traded for a sack of balls. people need to step back and have a little perspective. it is a LONG season to be sure…
"I'd rather win ugly than lose pretty," -- Lou Pinella
This isn't an overreaction to one or two bad starts by Marquis.
Thinking that Marquis is anything but a bad pitcher is an overreaction to two starts in opposition to years of Jason Marquis-like production from Jason Marquis.
Reported on
ESPN by Buster Olney, Harden will not move unless 1. The A’s are out of it and 2. Beane is completely blown away by an offer. Cubs do not have the pieces to make that deal. Cubs really don’t have the pieces to make a CC deal. Unless the Indians bite on a Gallagher, Colvin, Patterson and one other piece.
Marquis is what he is, he will end up 13-11 and piss us off the whole year.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
Cubs have zero shot at CC Sabathia
The Yankees, Phillies and Brewers all have much better farms systems to draw from. The Cub system is not in good shape right now. Ignoring the very green Josh Vitters, there is not a single “blue chip” or grade A prospect in the system.
Tim Wilkens didn’t exaclty have a great 2006 draft. And Oneri Flieta has sucked for years.
GET Rich Harden !!! 10 starts, 4-0, 59 IP, 72 Ks, 2.44 ERA !!!
And the Cubs have no shot at Harden, either.
Beane is in a tight playoff race himself right now, and is only interested in trading Harden away for a package like the one you say we can’t put together for Sabathia.a
once again I got to agree w/ cwyers
"We have a pretty strong belief that we are going to win those types of games. It's our confidence. "--Cubs pitcher Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jun 26, 2008 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions
No kidding
Let’s CC is reasonably likely to be traded as he his contract is up though the Cubs
don’t have what it takes to get him.
Harden is the A’s through 09 and Billy is known as about the toughest trader around so
about the ONLY way he gets traded is if Billy Boy knows even more bad medical news
on the never healthy in any season Harden.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Sean Gallagher is a nice beginning chip
and all we have to do is outbid those teams for the players they are willing to give up. If someone asks the Yankees for Hughes and are told no and ask the Brewers for Gallardo and are told no – if we then say hey, take our best pitching prospect and we’ll throw in Rich Hill (and a bunch of other pieces) that may play well. We’ll see.
As for the Phillies, I like what the Cubs are willing to dispose of better than what the Phillies are likely to be trading. But I am a Cubs fan.
Agree on the Phillies
The Cubs have better trading pieces.
The problem is that I don’t think the Cubs have enough to make either the A’s or Indians motivated sellers. Harden isn’t a free agent and the Indians aren’t completely out of the race. In addition, Sabathia’s draft picks might be worth more to the Indians.
before the season Pie, Hill, and two other prospects would have gotten it done for CC, Harden, or Bedard
now…................................
2008 Cubs: Who needs nine innings, when you only need a 7th?
really?
Maybe Bedard to the Orioles plus someone else…but were the Indians and A’s really going to trade the top guys in their rotation away in the off season? Sabathia is only available now because the Indians are bad…its questionable whether Harden will be available. Depends on the next month Oakland has. They are about 4 games behind the Rays for the wild card…Bedard would be a huge dissapointment if we had traded for him.
i mean't based on trade value, not actual trades
Pie and Hill were sell high candidates to start the season but now their value is littlte
2008 Cubs: Who needs nine innings, when you only need a 7th?
Bedard probably
Hill, Pie and something else would have probably gotten Bedard. CC as the reigning CYA winner on a team that thought they could compete was not available.
Harden was hurt in the spring so it’s hard to assess that.
OK, then ...
If the Cubs can’t get Sabathia or Harden … whom do they get?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jun 26, 2008 7:34 PM CDT reply actions
Saw him in Toronto
and was not impressed. I don’t think he’s any better than what the Cubs have now.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jun 26, 2008 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions
The problem with Burnett is that he's got two more very pricey years...
...after this, with an opt-out clause. If he stinks the second half… he doesn’t opt out, and you’re stuck with $24 million of AJ Burnett.
There are some options.
I think Sabathia is not entirely eliminated, but I don’t think we’re the frontrunners.
AJ Burnett is one, Randy Wolf is one, Bedard is one – and the price is down on Bedard.
Absolutely no on Wolf
2008 Home ERA: 2.52
2008 Road ERA: 5.84
He is no better than Marquis.
I would ask about Bedard.
No on Bedard.
His velocity is down, and he has to be one of the most over rated pitchers in baseball. He is good, but what Seattle traded for him was absolutely insane. And look where Seattle is now.
My new life, my new world, and my beautiful daughter:
Kayla Davis: Due date (8-11-08)!
Another candidate
Another candidate is Randy Wolf of the Padres…I suppose Maddux too but I just don’t see him contributing, sorry Al.
I have been mentioning Wolf for a while
Also depending how things fall out in the next few weeks, Padilla, Millwood, Cook, Oswalt and others will be around. Don’t get me started on Maddux, lets just say I think he prefers the SoCal situation but
he would better than Marquis and in the long run Gallagher. The one thing that makes Maddux valuable if you are looking for solid 3-5 guy is that unlike the others, IF he decides to leave he will only cost MONEY
and middling prospect. Towers lets him go if he wants to. It will be very interesting to see his next two starts
vs Rockies and then ( gulp) the D’backs.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Why are you mentioning Wolf
His road ERA this year is 5.84. Last year it was 4.95. I’ll keep Marquis for that.
As long as we're playing the home/road splits game:
Rich Harden, career:
Home: 2.95
Road: 4.02
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
What? Huh?
Don’t get me started on Maddux, lets just say I think he prefers the SoCal situation but he would better than Marquis and in the long run Gallagher.
What? You can’t mean what you’re saying here.
Well I meant THIS year
And yes I would much rather have Maddux at 4/5 than Gallagher. You can stash Gallagher in the
bullpen unless you need him as a chip. Let’s see who do I want in the last 2 months of the season a guy
who has done this maybe 14 times in the past and is still good or a kid that has been a very pleasant surprise for a few months. It is not like Gallagher is some lights out sensation.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 26, 2008 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions
That's also just an opinion.
Not necessarily a fact. Maddux has started to fade in the latter part of the season lately. The only way I would trade for Maddux is if Gallagher stays in the rotation and we swap Marquis for Maddux.
My new life, my new world, and my beautiful daughter:
Kayla Davis: Due date (8-11-08)!
Um you have that backwards
He has gotten BETTER after the AS break in 06 and 07. He was amazing with the Dodgers after
the trade in 06 but was credited with turning them around and getting them to playoffs. Last year
he had an incredible August and very spotty Sept but was good enough to clinch it for the Cubs by beating the Brewers the last Sat and be the last Padre pitcher to record a win.
I have no delusions that he is lights out , just better and more reliable than Marquis or Gallagher
and he does have a few intangibles going for him.
However I can not stress enough I consider this all academic as I don’t think he is going to move
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 27, 2008 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions
You must not have
watched too many Padres games this year when Maddux and Wolf have pitched?
I watched most of Maddux's games
A few clunkers but mostly quality starts WITH NO RUN SUPPORT
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 27, 2008 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions
LOL
Um I actually have missed a few because I was AT Cub games ( or flying to one).
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 27, 2008 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Wolf does not make sense for this team
Wolf wouldn’t be any different from Marquis and forget Maddux. Oswalt would be a great option, but don’t count on the Astros trading their ace within the division. The Cubs farm system is ranked currently 22 in the MLB. The farm system is not very deep with talent but getting Sabathia is still a small possibility.
As of right now, it’s a bit premature to talk about who will truly be on the market and in my mind there are only three SP available: Burnett, Wolf, and Maddux. Other teams are hunting for their respected divisions and I think the best time to decide who will be out there is by August 1st.
Bedard COULD BE OUT THERE, but are the Mariners really willing to give up so fast on Bedard? They do know they will not get the same return as the Indians for Sabathia, but I think at the very least Hendry should offer them some type B prospects (not Gallagher).
Reportedly one of the reasons they fired Bavasi...
...was because Bavasi wouldn’t trade Bedard. He’s available, although I don’t know for what price.
That was one of the reasons, but I find it hard to believe why so early
He is not a free agent after this year, but I guess they are aiming to rebuild their team and build the SP around King Felix. Still, the Mariners will NOT get two type A prospects in return, they will get one at most and two other type B prospects…IMO that should be more than fair to Bedard. I don’t think Hendry will offer Gallagher for him, but could offer E-Patt and mix around prospects like Veal and Ceda.
With a year and a half to go on his contract
why should Bedard’s price be any less than Teixeira’s last year?
and not willing to go past 100 pitches
That certainly hurts his value.
Teixeira wasn't hitting well when he was traded
if I recall correctly. The back problems probably bring him down a notch, but I think Bedard’s price will be more than Murton/Patterson/Veal.
There will
be a major fire sale sometime soon in Seattle. You can count on it. They can lose way cheaper than they are doing it now!
"I lof to hit de home ron!"
What is up with Oswalt?
He doesn’t seem like the same pitcher this year.
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
Starter or a reliever
If Zambrano comes back strong, then I actually think this team needs bullpen help more than it does starting pitching. Without Zambrano the team needs a top notch pitcher and I’ll go with Sabathia. Cleveland is currently in last place and I think there is a better shot at getting him and the Cubs shouldn’t have to give up that much for the rental.
Salesmanship
This is one area where Jim Hendry needs to do his best. Try to hornswaggle Mark Shapiro by talking up EPatt, Veal, etc. and explaining that their stats don’t tell the whole story. Talk up their moxie, their athleticism, the cut of their jib. Make like the proverbial used car dealer, Jim, and get us C.C.!
EPatt
has a Scrappy factor of .98 Theriots.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
In my opinion.
Rich Harden will not be traded. Oakland is still in the race and he is a vital part of them staying in the race. Plus we don’t have the prospects to net Harden. It’s like someone trying to trade for Mark Prior in 2004.
C.C. Sabathia should be our primary goal. Donnie Veal, Dae-Eun Rhee (can he be traded?), Wellington Castillo, and Eric Patterson for Sabathia might be something that would get Cleveland intrested. However, Rhee would be a BIG price to pay, that is, IF he can be traded. Hendry would have to get alittle creative.
We have to find a taker for Jason Marquis, and if not, they should seriously look into releasing him. It makes no sense on having him on this team really. You might as well start Samardzija .. at least he has the potential to be dominate.
A potential rotation of: Zambrano – Sabathia – Dempster – Lilly – Gallagher would be the best rotation is a long, long, time. All of the starters would have the potential to dominate, and you have a starter that has upside (Gallagher), and 3 proven pitchers (Sabathia, Zambrano, Lilly) and a guy that’s having a great season (Dempster). There is a chance that Gallagher fails, but it’s a much better chance than having Marquis pitching 5th day.
Wishful thinking anyway. I’ll put faith in it though, isn’t that what us Cub fans do anyways?
My new life, my new world, and my beautiful daughter:
Kayla Davis: Due date (8-11-08)!
We do need a pitcher..
But I’m not sure I want to give up the amount of young talent most teams will be wanting. Granted we could luck out and get someone cheap but I doubt it. And can we afford to get C.C. or Harden and afford them next year? I have heard someone say to get Maddox back, Im ok with that. I think he has the ability to get us to the WS and win it. He would be basically cheap and we know what he can do. C.C. has no experiance at the plate. Like it or not we do need a pitcher that can handle the bat, bunting and a clutch base hit every now and again. I dont see C.C. bunting at all.
I've thought for awhile now that we have a good chance for CC
as the Indians have spent a lot of resources scouting our organization. A hole we HAVE to fill though is up the middle. Every game there are grounders going into CF that MOST MLB shortstops routinely get. Theriot has the range of a turtle. Marquis is, seriously, just a BAD pitcher. The reason he won 5 in a row (or whatever it is that Len was talking about yesterday) is because he was getting a ton of run support. Harden isn’t worth the price asked for him. We need to KEEP Gallagher. I think if we eat Marquis’ contract, he can be part of a PACKAGE to get a quality pitcher. And, I think CC is it. Just make sure he is signed. But Marquis and Theriot are serious weaknesses on our team. Throwing in a SS hitting over .300 would be a plus in any package. However, I am sure that his lack of range has been well noted.
I keep saying
that Yuniesky Betancourt would look great in Cubbie Blue. He is a real shortstop with a cannon for an arm, and would help our ground ball inducing pitchers tremendously. And I am sure he will be available soon, since Seattle is going nowhere fast.
"I lof to hit de home ron!"
I really like Harden
...but I think that Sabathia is the better pickup. We need someone we can count on through the end of the season, to carry us into the playoffs and beyond. The risk associated with Harden is really scary. Especially if you have to give up Gallagher – your best backup plan – to get him (and I honestly think that you’ll have to give up Gallagher to get either of those guys).
But failing that, Harden is the best backup plan. If I were Hendry, this would be my shopping list in order of priority:
1) Sabathia
2) Harden
3) Bedard
4) Wolf
Burnett’s contract is a minefield, so there’s no way I would look at him. Any of these 4 guys makes us a better team however.
My order
1. Sabathia
2. Greinke
3. Bedard
4. Harden
The first two I am willing to pay more than for the second two, and I’m afraid #4 will be priced = to #1.
Like I said in the other thread,
I don’t want Jim Hendry anywhere near Beane or Shuerholz. Pulling one over on Dave Littlefield is one thing; dealing with a guy like Billy Beane is a whole other monster.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jun 27, 2008 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
I think Harden and Sabathia will have similar prices
...but I don’t think either of those prices will be ridiculously high. Harden is damaged goods, and Sabathia is a rental.
Greinke is probably the guy on your list with the highest price. I don’t see him as available, let alone at a price the Cubs could afford.
Who said Greinke is available?
I don’t see his name on any rumor lists. But if he is available, the Cubs should make a run at him.
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
by Bump Bailey on Jun 27, 2008 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
He isn't
He’s one of those names that keeps popping up, for whatever mysterious reason.
I’ve read that he’s not being shopped and that the Royals would have to be “wowed” in order to trade him. I don’t think the Cubs have anything they could “Wow” away a guy with #1 potential from a the Royals.
I keep asking the same thing
All indications are he is not being shopped. Of course, you could get the Royals interested. Want to trade Soto?
which really comes from the Assyrian
“hell, no, now hold still why I use this scythe on your butt.”
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Previous rumors had Greinke available
The most recent Rosenthal article, however, says, “No.” I have thought for a while that Ronny Cedeno would make a trade target for the Royals; not that Cedeno = Greinke, but that he + Gallagher is a start of a trade package they might like.
A thought that passed through my mind last night was...
....that Jason Marquis is the ghost of the 2006 season.
I understand why Hendry acquired Jason: He felt a strong need to stabilize the Cubs’ starting staff after that awful year. Unfortunately, it’s that very “stability” that is now undermining the 2008 team.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
You can trade Jason Marquis.
Okay, sure, it ends up looking something like “Jason Marquis and seven million dollars for Jose Vidro.” But you can trade Jason Marquis.
There is a way....
we have to pay his inflated salary.
by crazymountain on Jun 28, 2008 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions
I like reading all you experts....so much BS and Bluster.....
I bet most of you didn’t want Edmonds and were too smart to say so and only begrudgingly admitted for now you are wrong. Most of you also are Murton lovers, believe Pie will part the Red Sea and thought Cedeno was worthless.
As for the trading prospects:
First assumption is that the Cubs are going to make a trade and possibly two or three in their pitching staff. I would fall to the floor if the Cubs got Harden or Sabathia, for three reasons, this is not Hendry’s modus operandi (no matter what you all wish arsfor) and two the Cubs simply do not have the porspect jack to get either one, and three they don’t need one (unless Zambrano goes down).
What Hendry will do is probably work the second tier, my guess is that Burkett is a prime target for the Cubs could extend his contract, he is young and still a power pitcher, second target will be Oswalt where Houston is about to wave the white flag and knows it needs quantity in the prospect world and then three depending on Bedard’s health look at Houston’s failed trade. All three will come with the current Cubs offering of prospects and also give the Cubs something in 2009. To me Bedard (3.97 ERA, 4-4, 1.32 WHIP) offers the greatest possibility in that he needs a fresh start mentally, has another year on his FA offering and the Cubs want a left-hander. Finally Seattle would take Pie and possibly Patterson along with a Hill or Marshall & Ascanio (if Hill is healthy), ridding themselves of the last Bavasi move. The Mariners then could move Ibanez and get some more players.
As for Marquis: 5/15 quality starts (6 IP less than 3-ER), 4/15 other starts 5.2-5.0 IP less than 3-Runs, 4/15 starts 5-IP 4 or 5 runs scored. That is essentially 13/15 decent to good quality starts. Cubs are 9-6 (.600) when he pitches, (almost in line with their record). He is a good #4 starter but not a difference maker or a #4 on a championship team. If he were a #5 (which Gallagher is now) than he would be okay. But I think the Cubs can do better and still believe the Cubs could trade Marquis to SD for Maddux straight up. Cubs get the professor who can help the team prepare and help Maddux at least leap frog over Clemens.
The other trade is Cotts for Fuentes as rumored.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
I suppose you're fairly impressed with yourself now.
However, if you’re going insult everyone, a basic grasp of grammar, syntax, and punctuation would be in order.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jun 27, 2008 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
You must think Kevin Towers is an idiot
Look IF Maddux wants to come to the Cubs, he would let him go for Murton and a mid level prospect which since we don’t WANT Murton is not a big issue but he would not go NEAR Marquis unless the Cubs pay virtually all of his 2009 salary of around 10 million ( it was back loaded) Now personally I think a deal of Murton, Marquis , 9 million or 90% of Marquis 2009 salary and a PTNL is not that far fetched. Marquis is not as awful as everyone thinks but worse than the above would indicate. Lou has zero faith in him and the Cubs are probably going to have to eat the contract. one way or the other.
Bottom line Kevin Towers loves Maddux as much as Hendry but even if Maddux WANTS to leave
( which I doubt) he is NOT taking Marquis unless he is close to free.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 27, 2008 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
You still think that San Diego would trade Maddux for Marquis.
And you expect us to not laugh you out of the room why?
They might do it IF
the Cubs ate most of Marquis’ contract.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I really don't see why.
What do the Padres want Marquis for? If you’re looking for a guy to eat innings and you really don’t care about the results of the innings, there are guys who can do that off the scrap heap.
Not to mention that Marquis isn't really eating innings this eason.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jun 27, 2008 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
You forgot
Every pitcher in San Diego gets to play in Petco which is covered fairy dust and turns
all of them into Cy Young winners or so I am reliably told by everyone who thinks Maddux
is worthless. I mean if Maddux can get an ERA of 3.5 pitching there for half his starts a younger guy like Marquis would easily go under 3.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 27, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Petco only helps guys that
give up a lot of flyballs. Jason can walk guys and give up gappers there as well as anyone. It’s really hard to explain Maddux’ and Heath Bell’s home/road splits, though.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jun 27, 2008 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Petco suppresses run scoring by 20%, home runs from the right side by 40% and home runs from the left side by 22%.
If you don’t see how that helps nearly every pitcher that plays there you’re not looking hard enough.
Well I realize numbers say otherwise
but that could not much effect Maddux. He is the ultimate ground ball pitcher and when he does give up home runs ( which he definately does) they are MOON shots.
I honestly can’t remember any deep fly balls this year that say would have been a homer at Wrigley. Batters hit them on the ground or on occasion WAY out the park.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 27, 2008 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
The effect Petco has on a pitcher is not just based upon home runs.
It does reduce home runs, of course. But it also turns screaming doubles into routine flyouts, among other things. Maddux is effected by Petco.
I am sure Petco helps
I just resent the idea that Maddux or any other Padre pitcher gets some
astronomical advantage.
The home run theory absolutely does not work for Maddux . I just checked
He has given up 9 homers this year SIX at Petco and THREE on the Road
( in 9 home games and 8 road games) so if Petco keeps homers down it ain’t working for him.
I know what the splits say but I watch him most every game and he is fine on the road.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 27, 2008 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Why do you "resent" the idea?
It’s just a fact of life. The shape of every ballpark affects that ballpark’s games. It doesn’t diminish their performance – after all, each game gives each team an equal chance to win. No one is insulting Maddux by saying Petco is helping him.
What we are saying, though, is that it’s not very likely he would put up those same numbers here at Wrigley. And that the numbers he would likely put up here really wouldn’t be a huge improvement over what we already have.
Everybody thinks of park factors as home runs...
...which is only part of it. In the case of Petco, the fence distances really aren’t even the issue – things like air density and foul ground have a lot more to do with it. It’s rather funny to resent it – does she resent the fact that people say Coors Field inflates offense?
Of course ball parks effect players
But I certainly don’t think that if Maddux pitched at Wrigley and
in NL Central he would become Jason Marquis. You think Petco
gives every pitcher, let alone Maddux an extra 1.5 runs off their
ERA because that is the difference.
FYI one thing about Maddux that is the same anywhere he plays is that he throws strikes and walks VERY few batters might be a nice change of pace
Anyway this is academic just like arguing if Murton is a good LF
for the Cubs. Maddux is not coming and Lou is never playing Murton enough to find out.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 27, 2008 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Well for someone so impressed with yourself
I’m surprised you didn’t realize that John Burkett has been retired for a few years. Not sure why the Cubs would want him.
Also why would San Diego take on Marquis’ contract for nothing?
C-, see me after class
Ivy Walls criticizing the bluster of others…. Pot, kettle, etc.
I have a short phrase you should look up: economy of words. You don’t sound any smarter as your paragraphs get longer. You definitely lost some points there.
I will give you partial credit for spelling Edmonds’ name correctly finally. Now you just need to get AJ’s name right and you’ll pass the remedial spelling portion of our exam!
You should know that you did get bonus credit for adding a persecution complex to your shtick. If you start working in more unnecessary insults like this and play up the condescending attitude a little bit more, you might even give MDBINU a run for his money!
".so much BS and Bluster....."
well… who better to identify it…
I don’t think you can make Marquis for Maddux straight up. The Padres aren’t stupid, just not good at baseball right now.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 27, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Once again: Condescending title, didn't read. You know how to grab a person's attention. -1
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
Long thread
And I didn’t read any of it except your post so if this has already been said then forgive me. The thing is, I have some questions about your reasoning here.
First off, how can you “Guarantee” us that Sabathia won’t resign with the Cubs? Do you know something that no one else does? Or do you just think that he wouldn’t resign with the Cubs so you decided to proclaim it to the world in the most annoying fashion you could think of. Sorry, but whenever I read someone making such a bold proclamation like this I hear the voice of God in my head reading their post to me. “I GUARANTEE YOU CC WON’T SIGN WITH THE CUBS, MOVE ALONG MY SON.”
Another thing, would you mind comparing and contrasting Sabathia’s and Harden’s injury history for us and explaining what makes you think Sabathia is a risk but Harden isn’t? You kind of blow off the thought of Harden being a risk but then you add the caveat that “it’s not like CC hasn’t been injured either”. Perhaps a cursory glance at the number of innings they’ve each thrown the last few years might change your mind?
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have anything against us trying to get Harden. The problem I have is that under no circumstances can Harden be depended on. Remember Mark Prior, or Kerry Wood circa 2004-2007? If the choice was mine and both Harden and Sabathia were on the market I would go after Sabathia, simply because there is a much better chance of him still being able to pitch come October than Harden.
As far as the cost to get each one goes Sabathia is a rental, Harden is signed past this year. Sabathia isn’t going to cost as much as what some people are thinking, imho. It’s not going to take a Johan type deal to get him. If/When Cleveland finally gives up and puts him on the market interested teams are going to have to offer them better value than what they could get with their draft picks. I’m assuming that they’d want reasonably more but not substantially more in order to take the PR hit of trading Sabathia, but still, it’s not going to gut a descent farm system. On the other hand, when has Billy Beane ever made a trade that turned out well for the other team? I’m sure there have been a few but I sure as heck can’t think of any. Do you want to do business with that guy, for the honor of getting Mark Prior v2.0? He’s signed longer, thus he’s going to cost more. The only thing that’s going to hold his value down is his injury history, which doesn’t seem to bother you, but it does me. Otherwise he’d definitely be a more expensive acquisition than Sabathia.
Anyway, I’m getting off the soapbox now. To sum up, Sabathia is the better option at this point imo, Harden is risky, acquiring him would be risky, Sabathia won’t cost as much as people think etc etc…...
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

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