What will it REALLY take to land Sabathia?

by bergs55 on Jun 28, 2008 10:18 AM CDT

Seems that a lot of posters on here want CC but don't want to give anything up to get him.

What's a legitimate package for him? Here's some recent trades to compare it to.

Back in 2002, in a trade that happened to include Sabathia's current team, the Indians, they sent Bartolo Colon...who at the time was comparable to CC for all-star Brandon Phillips (who is now 2b for the Reds), possible Cy Young award winner Cliff Lee and all-star CF Grady Sizemore.

This past winter, the Twins traded Johan Santana to the Mets for Carlos Gomez, Philip Humber, Deolis Guerra, and Kevin Mulvey. Four of their top 6 prospects.

A lot of people on here have been suggesting that we trade Murton, Rich Hill, E Patterson and a host of other players who really aren't that good. Why would the Tribe want any of those guys? It's probably going to take at least 3 of the players below to even pique the interest of Cleveland.

1. Felix Pie 2. Donald Veal 3. Jeff Samardzija 4. Tyler Colvin 5. Sean Gallagher

The Indians aren't that desperate. And there are plenty of other teams who are interested and have the prospects to make some noise. There was a post on the game recap that couldn't believe that somebody had even mentioned Soto for Sabathia. Why not? Sabathia is a Cy Young winner who is one of the best pitchers in the league. While I don't think the Cubs should entertain that idea and I understand it was just a random post, we all have to remember that you can't get something for nothing...and that's the case with CC.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation, Bleed Cubbie Blue, or Al Yellon, editor-in-chief. FanPost opinions are, however, valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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They're gonna want at least one pitcher in return

Maybe Gallagher or Hill, and they haven’t gotten much out of David Delucci or Franklin Gutierrez so probably Felix Pie, and then other one to ice the cake like Colvin, Veal, or Patterson.

"Check the magic of a winning season and there are always reasons beyond the talent." Ned Colleti

by wrigleyrocker12 on Jun 28, 2008 10:26 AM CDT 0 recs

the indians

don’t want to take hill and i don’t know why the cubs would give up gallager. he’s their best young pitcher in some couple of years. I think hendry’s goal is to have Z and this other great starter. Then finish the rotation off with Dempster, Lilly, and Gallager. I would rather have Gallager than Marquis. That’s what you would have if you do indeed trade gallager

by lexmarklover on Jun 28, 2008 10:38 AM CDT up 0 recs

No one

is going to want Rich Hill right now. He’s not a chip after what has happened to him this year.

by Archie on Jul 2, 2008 8:07 AM CDT up 0 recs

WE DONT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES

N/T

Dear SBnation, We need our own server here at BCB seeing how its became very slow due to enormous amounts of traffic. P.S. Impeach Bud Selig!!!

by cubsluver22 on Jun 28, 2008 10:35 AM CDT 0 recs

i agree

we should target harden and i think hendry is targeting harden

by lexmarklover on Jun 28, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up 0 recs

Wrong and wrong.

First of all, Oakland is 3.5 games out of first place. Why would they trade him if he’s that good and they’re in a race?

Second, Harden is an arm injury waiting to happen. Do not want. Period.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 28, 2008 10:43 AM CDT up 0 recs

the indians

are only 7 1/2 games out of the AL central. Al, would u rather have a pitcher that will be a 2 month rental that is only 1-2 in the playoffs with a 7.17 era.. i would not. Isn’t that the main reason we really want C.C. However, Harden isn’t too great either

by lexmarklover on Jun 28, 2008 10:51 AM CDT up 0 recs

Yabbut...

... the Tribe is in last place, and have many injuries. Plus, CC is testing the free agent market. Harden is under contract.

I want to win now. I think CC would stick around if he came here and the Cubs won and he saw the atmosphere surrounding the team. It might NOT be a rental.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 28, 2008 11:02 AM CDT up 0 recs

I tend to agree with that

I don’t think the Cubs have what it takes to get CC, but if somehow they do, I think it’s a good bet that CC would at least seriously consider re-signing here, once he gets a taste of Wrigley Field, the fans, taking a few swings in the NL, and not to mention, the food. ;-)

I think in this scenario, the wild card is not CC’s interest, but the ownership instability if something doesn’t happen fast.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jun 28, 2008 11:25 AM CDT up 0 recs

Not gonna happen

Why would the Indians take any of our supposed “top prospects” when the brewers, phillies etc can give way better packages….I doubt Cleveland will do the Cubs a favor like the Pau Gasol trade in the NBA

Obviously it would be awesome, i think Al is right, CC seems like the type of guy who would stick around to be a part of history and an appreciation for the atmosphere.

I just cant see how Hendry can pull this off given whats happened to HIll and Pie and even Colvin. Vitters has barely seen the field this year either, which hurts his trade value, plus Id like to see him stick around and succeed Aramis someday, I mean he was the #3 overall pick as a highschooler at a premium power position, so the kids got some talent for sure.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Jun 28, 2008 1:19 PM CDT up 0 recs

cc, in his mind

is an ace. he does not want to be Z’s shadow

THIS IS THE YEAR!!

by BadBillyGoat on Jun 29, 2008 2:11 AM CDT up 0 recs

On what basis do you say this?

Give evidence. I have never heard this said or written anywhere.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 29, 2008 4:07 AM CDT up 0 recs

HUH?

I don’t know about you, but CC is an ace in my mind also. I have never seen anything to indicate that CC carries such a massive ego. If he did, he would not spend so much time and money trying to get kids in the East Bay to get back into baseball and not ruin their futures by putting all their talents into basketball. I just don’t understand your comment at all.

by crazymountain on Jun 29, 2008 11:00 AM CDT up 0 recs

several people

have been given grief over the idea of rich harden – and i think, fairly so b/c of his injury history. However, let me play devil’s advocate as somebody who is sick of promising injury-plagued pitchers for those that would dismiss the rich harden idea immediately:

this year he is 5-0 w/an era at 2.15 – lots of ND’s on a crappy offensive team. His last outing was 8 shutout innings of 2-hit ball w/11 K’s against the phillies. In short, he’s awesome.

oh, and also: he missed ALL OF APRIL AND 1/2 OF MAY with some wussy injury. but hey, he’s got good stuff, lol.

"I'll play any day. I don't care if I'm 0-for-30, playing baseball is my PASSION. I'll go out and play." - Geo Soto

by CubbyBlues on Jun 28, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up 0 recs

Beware Rich Harden's home/road splits.

Career splits:

Home: 299 IP, 2.95
Road: 232 IP, 4.02

The Oakland Mausoleum is a pitcher’s park. Wrigley Field isn’t. I think we’d be disappointed in him, and then he’d get hurt.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 28, 2008 11:04 AM CDT up 0 recs

i wouldn't say that The Jake is a hitter's park

especially with the huge wall in left

by lexmarklover on Jun 28, 2008 11:13 AM CDT up 0 recs

What does the Jake have to do with Rich Harden?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 28, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up 0 recs

well u said that oakland is a pitcher's park

u can say the same about C.C. and the Jake

by lexmarklover on Jun 28, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up 0 recs

The relevant point here is...

... Sabathia’s career home and road ERA’s are nearly identical (3.82 and 3.83, respectively). So it doesn’t really matter for him where he pitches.

Harden’s ERA goes up by more than a run when he hits the road. That would make a big difference.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 28, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up 0 recs

we can argue about this all day

but i think harden is the better pitcher but don’t get me wrong i would relish at the opportunity of having CC as well

by lexmarklover on Jun 28, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up 0 recs

Better how?

He’s spent more time on the DL, so he’s better that way.

Otherwise I don’t see it. If you can back up your argument, I’ll at least listen.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 28, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up 0 recs

Harden has better stuff

ppl would probably say that they are very similar. What i have read is that CC gets tired later into the game and the opposite goes for Harden. He gets better. They both have plus 90 fastballs, CC has a curve, Rich has a slider, both pitches hitters chase. They’re very similar, don’t forget CC did spend time on the dl so it’s not like he’s injury-free. he actually has been on the dl twice.

truly i don’t care who the cubs get if it’s between harden and CC. I just think harden’s stuff is better.

by lexmarklover on Jun 28, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up 0 recs

i would love it if either one of them came

THIS IS THE YEAR!!

by BadBillyGoat on Jun 29, 2008 2:14 AM CDT up 0 recs

That and the injury thing

scares the crap out of me. I agree he’s got some serious potential but with a road ERA that much higher than a pitcher friendly park and/or the sudden towel drills makes me thing #22 again.

Like the guy’s potential but no thanks…

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Jun 28, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up 0 recs

I hope someone can jump in here with relevant ballpark numbers, but in the interim, I'd beg to differ

yeah, there’s a huge wall in left, but it’s not that far out. With the prevailing winds, right down the line has gotten a bit of a reputation as a home run porch. Plus wherever there’s a huge wall, there’s usually lots of doubles.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jun 28, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up 0 recs

the Jake

is 20th in the league in runs Park Factor, 28th in HRs Park Factor, 17th in Hits Park Factor, 14th in Doubles, and 26th in Triples. It’s not that great of an offensive park as u think it is

by lexmarklover on Jun 28, 2008 11:51 AM CDT up 0 recs

wow - that surprises me, especially the HRs

granted, the bulk of my time there was when they still had Manny and Thome, but still…

Eh, numbers don’t lie, so lemme go get some milk to wash down this crow omelet I’m about to eat… Thanks for the info.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jun 28, 2008 11:55 AM CDT up 0 recs

Why do we need to be wary that Harden's road ERA

...is almost the same as Sabathia’s career ERA?

That’s not a Maddux-like home / road split. Harden is fantastic. Sabathia is fantastic. Either one makes our team better.

With Harden you get more of him (he has a club option for 2009 worth $7M). With Sabathia you get less injury risk but only 3 months of him.

I’m happy either way. I suspect they have similar asking prices.

by Wreckard on Jun 28, 2008 1:07 PM CDT up 0 recs

so he can fill out

that empty DL position?

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 28, 2008 10:55 AM CDT up 0 recs

I hope not

at least for plans A, B & C.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Jun 28, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up 0 recs

That's a crock

The Cubs do have what it takes, its just all the consternation it would cause in this blog that makes people here believe the Cubs don’t have what it takes.

People have to realize one must give to get.

I know kids like Gallagher are possibly going to be good. And there’s another half-dozen to a dozen names we can all throw around that would also be good. There IS a combination of players that can do it and Hendry/Lou know that. Its whether or not they want to do it AND re-sign CC to a contract with the Cubs.

Notice the AND statement. IMHO Hendry would make a deal if they can re-sign CC; not give up the young talent for a 2-2.5 months (hopefully 3 month with the playoffs) rental.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Jun 28, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up 0 recs

It's just like the Sutcliffe deal.

The Cubs gave up Joe Carter, someone we KNEW was going to be good. Can you imagine how many HR he’d have hit playing in Wrigley Field for 15 years?

The Cubs made the playoffs with Sutcliffe. Without him they might not have.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 28, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up 0 recs

I agree....

We could put a package together to get him. Hendry would NOT make that trade without a signature on a contract and the Indians have scouted all our teams extensively, a move that shows they have interest in dealing with us. I did read a couple days ago that they were trying to sign him to a contract PRIOR to trading him, as they know they cannot afford him on a long-term basis.

by crazymountain on Jun 29, 2008 11:07 AM CDT up 0 recs

I Got What It Takes

and do you know why?

Because “TWSS”!

Eat More Katsui

by CaliCub on Jun 28, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up 0 recs

Denied. You can't TWSS yourself.

You have to depend on the kindness of strangers… ;-)

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jun 28, 2008 11:30 AM CDT up 0 recs

TWSS

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 28, 2008 11:35 AM CDT up 0 recs

TWBS

by Short4Fanatic on Jun 28, 2008 12:39 PM CDT up 0 recs

those trades aren't comparible

because they happened in the off season and not for a 3 month rental player.

by cubswin on Jun 28, 2008 10:39 AM CDT 0 recs

here's what I'd offer

1. Felix Pie (sigh)
2. Donald Veal
3. Jeff Samardzija
4. Tyler Colvin
5. Sean Marshall
6. Micah Hoffpauer
7. Matt Murton

No way can they have Gallagher.

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 28, 2008 10:42 AM CDT 0 recs

Hoffpauir has virtually zero trade value.

The rest of the list is possible, and if you want someone as good as Sabathia, you’re probably going to have to include Gallagher.

Do you want to win now or not?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 28, 2008 10:43 AM CDT up 0 recs

Resounding "Yes" to wanting to win now

there’s basically no Cubs prospect that I wouldn’t at least consider trading for an established, potential defference-maker like Sabathia.

Where it gets more complicated for me though is when I hear names like Marmol and Soto being batted around as possible Indians targets. Both of those guys seem like such hugely imprtant pieces to the puzzle that I just can’t see letting either of them go-it’s like it would almost defeat the purpose.

by bluekoolaide on Jun 28, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up 0 recs

It wouldn't.

There’s no way either of those guys are going anywhere.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 28, 2008 11:04 AM CDT up 0 recs

NFW

I wouldn’t have either of them in a trade for even Santana, Haren or Webb.

Those are 2 pieces of the puzzle that would not be easily fixed and the acquistion of even a big name SP wouldn’t offset the loss of either one of those guys.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Jun 28, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up 0 recs

if i were the cubs

i would not put gallager in any trade whatsoever. Trade vitters if you need too but no gallager.

by lexmarklover on Jun 28, 2008 10:54 AM CDT up 0 recs

That's totally backwards.

The Cubs should trade mid to low ceiling prospects like Gallagher and keep high ceiling prospects like Vitters. We can afford to replace a pitcher like Gallagher on the free agent market.

by DGU on Jun 28, 2008 11:34 AM CDT up 0 recs

Yes, I want to win now

but not at the expense of next year. To me, Gallagher is off limits.

Give ‘em Theriot, that might make ‘em stand up and look. :D

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 28, 2008 10:56 AM CDT up 0 recs

Maybe we can send Gallagher down to Single-A to hide him for a while, then the Indians will forget about him! Yeah!

Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager

by northsider on Jun 28, 2008 2:23 PM CDT up 0 recs

If you can ink CC to a long term deal then Gallagher is worth the price

I can’t believe I just typed this, but I actually believe it.

CC and Z for the foreseeable future? Tough to beat.

by AlabamaCubFan on Jun 28, 2008 10:55 AM CDT up 0 recs

I don't see

how to get CC long-term. He’s a rental. You don’t give up Gallagher for a rental.

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 28, 2008 10:57 AM CDT up 0 recs

Maybe I should have put if in caps

LOL.

I keep hearing he wants to go back to the west coast but being on a winning team like the Cubs can change things.

Frankly, with the way CC has been pitching lately, I think the price will be much higher than the Cubs can afford.

by AlabamaCubFan on Jun 28, 2008 11:00 AM CDT up 0 recs

CC wants too much money

with the change in owners, there is no real way the cubs are gonna be dishing out 15-20 mil per year for 1 pitcher after what they paid for Soriano

by lexmarklover on Jun 28, 2008 11:01 AM CDT up 0 recs

None of us have any idea what the new owners will do

but there have been many examples in the past of new owners wanting to make a splash and get off on the right foot with the fan base, etc.-there’s no reason to believe that they wouldn’t at least consider signing a guy like Sabathia.

by bluekoolaide on Jun 28, 2008 11:11 AM CDT up 0 recs

i don't know i think i'm going to change my stance on C.C.

I’ll just take any great pitcher if we could get him .

by lexmarklover on Jun 28, 2008 11:12 AM CDT up 0 recs

Even without.............

...............the long term deal, Hendry should make the move. Gallagher might turn out to be a very good pitcher and yet he might become a bum. No way to know, but in getting Sabathia, the Cubs know what they can expect as they make a run for the postseason.

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jun 28, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up 0 recs

Exactly

While I like what I’ve seen from Gallagher so far, at this point he remains a prospect-the problem is that the time to trade prospects for studs is when their value is high which is what Gallagher’s is right now. We know what Sabathia is capable of-we’ve seen it. But Gallagher, as promising as he’s looked at times,, is still a question mark. I’ve lived most of my life as a Cubs fan waiting for “next year” and I’m tired of it. Win now. Do whatver it takes.

by bluekoolaide on Jun 28, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up 0 recs

What is he capable of, exactly?

Sabathia is a good pitcher, but he isn’t exactly Sandy Koufax. His performance in the postseason hasn’t really been lights out (2-2 with a 7.17 ERA in four games). Plus, a big innings increase last season raises warning flags.
I know this isn’t necessarily an indicator of things to come, and I know that at 27 he is probably just entering his prime. But he is far from being the guy that will guarantee a ticket to October. Just a possible piece of the puzzle.

In the middle of a good time, Truth gave me her icy kiss. Look around, you must be joking. All that way, all that way for this -Oysterband

by Ross on Jun 28, 2008 11:11 AM CDT up 0 recs

FOUR GAMES

FOUR!!!!!!

that’s what you’re judging his post-season success off of

that’s inane

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 28, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up 0 recs

You have broken a rule here...

Who are you to attempt to interject common sense into mid-season trade banter? Four of our top six prospects for CC? Poppycock! They will take Andres Torres, Jake Fox and Eric Patterson, because that was the trade I worked out on my video game.

Please refrain from being realistic in your discussions of future trades. In addition, we ask that you please continue to use the standard Cubs fan offer of “Murton, Marshall and a package of prospects.”

Thanks

In the middle of a good time, Truth gave me her icy kiss. Look around, you must be joking. All that way, all that way for this -Oysterband

by Ross on Jun 28, 2008 11:03 AM CDT 0 recs

LMAO

Perfect!

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 28, 2008 11:06 AM CDT up 0 recs

+1

by bluekoolaide on Jun 28, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up 0 recs

+2

by bergs55 on Jun 28, 2008 12:12 PM CDT up 0 recs

off topic but what is up with derrek lee though

he looks like a different hitter than he was in april. maybe he’s trying to hit more HRs and pulling the ball when they pitch away

by lexmarklover on Jun 28, 2008 11:17 AM CDT 0 recs

I think Shaprio is looking for a package of three things

A pitcher, a corner IF and a corner OF – the last two with power potential. One of those three should already be a major leaguer, the other two not that far behind. Anyone trading for CC obviously needs pitching, ergo they’re probably not going to have a good major league pitcher to give up – at least not a starter.

Is he going to get all that? Probably not, but I think that’s his going-in position. A lot depends on how many teams are seriously interested in CC. People always scoff at the dollar value expectations of selling stuff on eBay, but remember in an auction format, all you need are two idiots…

And no, I don’t think Hendry is an idiot; so even if Shapiro inquires about Soto or Marmol, which I’m sure he would, Hendry will politely say thanks but no thanks. And Shapiro knows this. So they’d probably both have a chuckle and then talk about the weather or something.

Also remember that Shapiro has a BATNA – that’s a fancy business term I learned from taking a Negotiations course. Stands for “Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement”. Basically it’s your fallback plan – what are you going to do if you have to get up and walk away from the deal. In this case, Shapiro has the two high draft picks and fan goodwill. So if you’re a GM trying to get CC, not only do you have to come up with something better than the other teams, you also have to convince Shapiro that what you’re offering is better than two high draft picks and possibly alienating his team’s fan base.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jun 28, 2008 11:21 AM CDT 1 recs

Good Post BH

it would seem to me that Shapiro is looking for a package consisting of talent that is both youthful and major-league ready. That’s why I’m trying to hit on a combo of established performers as well as kids with upside, let alone a kid or two that already is an established performer.

I’m reluctant to part with Marmol or Soto or Gallagher, so all I’ve been able to come up with so far is Lilly + Marshall + Hoffpauir + Colvin/Vitters for Sabathia. Or maybe some $$$ in lieu of one of the youngin’s.

Sure wish Uncle Bud would allow the trading of draft picks!

Eat More Katsui

by CaliCub on Jun 28, 2008 11:35 AM CDT up 0 recs