The Cubs Defense

by cubfever7 on Jun 6, 2008 1:07 PM CDT Comment 105 comments

They say in sports that defense wins championships. I have to agree. We all remember the '85 Bears and people forget that the Bulls dynasty was built around two of the best defenders ever: Jordan and Pippen.

What do we agree and disagree on in regard to our favorite MLB team?

ESPN shows us at 8th overall and 21st in isolated fielding % (which has become somewhat of an archaeic stat). http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?statType=fielding&group=9

Here's my opinion by position:

Catcher-Soto is doing a fine job at catcher in a variety of ways--he's above average in throwing out runners (and we know the pitcher has much to do with those outcomes), he's durable and seems to gain more buy in on game calling each week. He is the biggest surprise of 2008 to me, I never expected him to rise to the top so quickly.

First: DLee--we see him daily and know he's the best, regardless of stats--his value to the core of our defense is beyond measure.

2B: DeRo made a pretty play vs. LA last night and that combined with the crispness of our D prompted me to post this. He's rarely spectacular, but I'm hard pressed to think of anyone in MLB who can play RF, 3B and 2B as well as he does. His fielding % is below average, but he'll get better.

3B: Ramirez--some take him for granted--he led the NL in fielding% in 2006 (tied with Rolen). His throws can be adventuresome, but with the big guy at first, ARam just reacts now without worrying--he makes some FINE plays with little fanfare.

SS: Theriot is about a league average shortstop, Cedeno is rangier, but which of them is steadier would be an interesting debate. Riot is probably sufficient in light of the rest of the team.

OF: I never realized how good Edmonds really is until he came to our side. Aside from the hit stealing dive vs. LA last night, he also ended up grabbing a popup that DeRo probably would have had, but dude...this guy really covers the short stuff and I'm learning to accept his over the shoulder stuff partially because when you play shallow, you'll have to catch at least some balls going backward--he prefers to catch them that way it appears. I guess that's ok. He made a nice play to dead center in Petco the other night and then turned and let his back absorbe the blow to the wall, To me, he's a professional center fielder, even if Felix has a better arm.

Fukudome in my view is about the best RF in the game right now--if not he's close--he does it all out there.

Alf has pulled some boners--er--goof ups but he is an athlete and he made some tough plays on this road trip--his arm is among the best. I expect he's putting in extra work on fefense and I believe he'll be ok.

Pitchers: we have got an exceptionally athletic staff--they compete, they hit, they run and they do a decent job fielding.

We don't know where things are headed in 2008 but we've got a GOOD defense. Could it be tweaked here and there? Yes. But for some reason last night, i could almost palpably see our defense swagger a little. They knew they could make all the plays and they seemed to have a certain tempo on the field. It's fun to watch!

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Revized Zone Ratings

despite the animosity some may have towards it, i believe zone rating is a pretty good indicator of a fielder’s defensive quality. here’s how the cubbies rank in the NL:

Lee: 6th
DeRosa: 2nd to last (at 2B)
Ramirez: 9th
Theriot: 8th
Soriano: 8th (only ahead of Burrell and el Caballo)
Edmonds: 2nd (.001 behind ankiel)
Fukudome: 1st

DeRo and Jim Ed didn’t qualify, so ther ranking is where they would be among qualified position players. The quaifying stipulation skews things a little bit because it excludes some legitimate players at the position, but it’s a rough estimate of where these guys stand at their positions in the league.

by Waveland Ave on Jun 6, 2008 1:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Looks little ugly for our boys......

I’m a little surprised on Lee and especially Ramirez—the others seems about what I’d expect.

BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"

by cubfever7 on Jun 6, 2008 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very interesting

Yet another indicator of the extreme underrated value of Mark DeRosa. Talk about one of the best free agent signings by this ballclub in a long time. Kosuke is outstanding in right field and I’m reassured to see the zone rating reflect that. Not surprised by Aramis Ramirez as he lateral range is piss poor. Surprised by Derrek Lee being so low. To me Mark Teixiera and Todd Helton are better 1st baseman, but Lee is still very good. Theriot is about where I would expect him to be. Soriano is the worst outfielder in baseball.

Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA

by MDBNIU on Jun 6, 2008 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Soriano is not the worst outfielder in baseball

Period. I could name 5 guys worse, YOU, are not worth it.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Jun 6, 2008 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If he's not worth it

then why are you responding to him at all?

by bluekoolaide on Jun 6, 2008 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

+5344434343445665

My 08 Cubs record 7-0
Updated June 01

by Rudey on Jun 6, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

DeRosa...

being 2nd to last for second basemen is ‘another indicator’ of his underrated value how?

No Edmonds, No Maddux, No Problems.

by Kansas25 on Jun 6, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My bad

I did not see the “to last” bit. My apologies.

Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA

by MDBNIU on Jun 6, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um...

why are paying any attention to statistics?

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 6, 2008 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, why aren't you deriding Waveland's post as "saber-magic"?

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on Jun 6, 2008 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The THT RZR doesn't include OOZ plays...

...which means you have to do some finessing to get it to be meaningful.

STATS, Inc. ZR includes OOZ plays, albeit poorly. I’ve taken to getting my ZR data from Sportsnet.ca recently when I just need a quick fix.

For catchers, SB% and WP/PB are more meaningful measures of catcher defense, and Soto does well in both of those categories.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is consistent with my perception of the Cubs as having

a poor IF defense, so of course I agree with it, LOL….But I think we have below average range at 3b, SS, and 2B. I don’t know where we come out in turning DPs, but I have little confidence in our MIFs to turn it, they seem like they are not suited for the positions that they play, at least not as everyday at those spots. Defense becomes much more important in the playoffs where you are more likely to face teams that can score, too.

I don’t think the roster will change much to sort this out, so I hope that our MIFs can make the normal plays and turn the DPs in crunch time, there won’t be any Bartmans around the middle IF to blame in the playoffs.

by DudeVf11 on Jun 7, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Soto...

... does a nice job calling games and blocking pitches. I do think he still has some work to do on throwing basestealers out, though.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 6, 2008 1:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Yup....ESPN shows him at 8th in MLB in CS%...

...incredibly enough—-Jason Kendall is 1st! Where was that last year? Seemed like it was a jailbreak for opposing base runners agaisnt last year.

BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"

by cubfever7 on Jun 6, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

agree

Soto throws out 27.3% of runners which is 5th in the NL, but i do think he has the potential to get better.

Also, Johnson would be 8th among qualified NL CFs. (Edmonds – .958 RZR, Johnson – .896)

by Waveland Ave on Jun 6, 2008 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He started out poorly

and then they worked with his footwork. So if you would a good measure of what he will be going forward, I would exclude those first few weeks.

"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope."

by californiachicagoan on Jun 6, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Soto is impressive

The biggest task for a catcher is to work well with a pitching staff and be good defensively behind the plate. Frankly I’m surprised how fast Soto has assumed a leadership role in workign with the pitchers. His defense behind the plate has been okay. He needs to get better and blocking pitches in the dirt. His throwing has been pretty good in my estimation.

Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA

by MDBNIU on Jun 6, 2008 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cubs are average in defense with some +'s, Cubs offense and pitching are their big PLUS

DLee provides the Cubs the opportunity to play Theriot, Ramirez and DeRosa. His defense around 1B with errant throws saves the Cubs many outs and runs. The problem is that the three infielders have limited range unless Cedeno is inserted at either middle infield position or DeRosa plays 3B. Thus the best infield defense is DeRosa (3B), Cedeno (SS) and Theriot at 2B. (Meaning Ramirez could be the best DH—-think about it.)

In the OF, Fukudome is the best OF’er and has already won games with his defense that incorporates with his legs, glove and arm. Edmonds and Johnson are average, they won’t hurt you for Edmonds although a step and a half to two steps slower than in ‘05 makes most plays and has a plus arm. Soriano is risk, he will make most plays that a slower LF’er will make, does not go back well on balls, is wall shy, but has such a quick release accurate arm he becomes a slight plus.

Soto is smart and his game calling is sound and improving. (If the Cubs got Maddux, Soto would end up being a master), His catching skills are average, average arm.

What the Cubs have is an offensive lineup…...each position will out hit most of their opponents.

Pitching, each K is a good thing and adds to their defense. What they have is a bullpen and they shorten the game. This is why Lou is unmoved by double switching late in games because outside of Fukudome and maybe Lee all those manning the defense are average.

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Jun 6, 2008 1:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Like what you said about Aramis.

I think he enjoys having an All Star at first as it allows him more time to assess situations or make a throw on the run, knowing there’s a guy there to pick em out if necessary.

"And there's a...BASE HIT! Fair ball! Fontenot will score! CUBS WIN!" -Len Kasper, 5.28.08

by neverAcquiesce on Jun 6, 2008 1:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Tale of two teams.

The Cubs are a tale of two very separate defenses – the outfield, and the infield. Take a look at the aggregated team data. The difference is mostly in the OOZ plays – Cubs outfielders are fifth in the NL in out of zone plays. Cubs infielders, on the other hand, are 13th in OOZ plays.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 1:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

By what measure are you considering Theriot an average defensive shortstop?

His fielding percentage, STATS, Inc. ZR, BIS RZR, BIS OOZ, and for good measure his observed performance – i.e., his range and arm – are all below average. Do you have anything to substantiate your claim that Theriot is an average defensive shortstop?

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 2:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Theriot is a vital member of the Cubs

Theriot is the David Eckstein and Craig Counsell of the Cubs. His value is far greater than the saber-math people want to give credit. One of the most popular guys in the clubhouse, an igniter on offense and one of Sweet Lou’s favorites. His energy is contagious. I used to be leery of Theriot. But not anymore. He has made me a big believer. Is he a star? No. Is he vital to what the Cubs are doing? Absofrigginlutely.

Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA

by MDBNIU on Jun 6, 2008 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very well said.

I agree completely.

by bluekoolaide on Jun 6, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

None of which answers the question

How does any of that make him an average defensive shortstop?

"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope."

by californiachicagoan on Jun 6, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's all well and good (not really, though)

but you didn’t answer his question. By what measurement is Theriot an average defensive shortstop? The question wasn’t “by what measurement is Theriot another scrappy white guy taking a role on an MLB roster that he doesn’t deserve?”

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jun 6, 2008 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If only the real game of baseball were played on your Nintendo set

Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA

by MDBNIU on Jun 6, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shows how much you know, I've never owned a Nintendo

Anyways, it’s not like the strategies that “Sabermagicians” espouse are new to baseball. While they didn’t have the tools we have today, baseball men like Connie Mack, Earl Weaver, Branch Rickey, and Joe McCarthy put into practice many of those philosophies.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jun 6, 2008 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i have the nintendo

hooked up to my 46’’ sony——its AMAZING.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Jun 6, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

High five!

"And there's a...BASE HIT! Fair ball! Fontenot will score! CUBS WIN!" -Len Kasper, 5.28.08

by neverAcquiesce on Jun 6, 2008 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, it's played on a baseball field.

But there are these things called facts. Take a look at this diagram of the field. The five zones marked as H-L are considered the shortstop’s area of responsibility for the purposes of zone rating.

Well, so far this year, 186 ground balls have been hit in those zones, and 135 of those have been converted to outs. That’s a .804 success rate on ground balls in zone, the third-worst of all qualified starters. That’s not on “my Nintendo set,” that’s on a real damned baseball diamond.

Your failure to acknowledge things like this doesn’t make you better than me; quite the opposite, in fact.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Who said Ryan Theriot is a gold glover?

Nobody. You won’t get much argument by saying Ryan Theriot is not so hot at shortstop. His value goes far beyond any defensive limitations as noted ad nauseum. Besides, what’s the alternative? Do you have snappy way for us to acquire Jimmy Rollins for a bag of magic beans and a two year subscription to Vineline?

Overall, Ryan Theriot is an asset to the Cubs. He is an integral reason why this ballclub has the best record in baseball. The mere mention of replacing him with Ronny Cedeno is laughable. Cedeno might have more God given ability but I’ll bet the ranch you won’t find one member of the Cub team or coaching staff who would prefer him to be the everyday shortstop over Theriot right now. Cedeno has a 10 cent head and a very low baseball IQ.

Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA

by MDBNIU on Jun 6, 2008 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you for refuting the straw man arguement.

I never said Ryan Theriot should be a Gold Glover. But if you combine the BIS and STATS, Inc. measures, what you’re left with is that Ryan Theriot is the worst defensive shortstop in the National League.

Let me go ahead and repeat that, just in case you decide to not do any reading again:

Ryan Theriot has been measurably the worst defensive shortstop in the National League to date.

We aren’t talking about being a little bad on defense, we’re talking about being very bad on defense. You constantly carp about how we need to improve the pitching on this team. Well, what’s more likely:

1) That we can magically acquire an upgrade to the starting rotation for “a bag of magic beans and a two year subscription to Vineline”?

2) That we can replace the worst defensive shortstop in baseball with a guy who isn’t the worst defensive shortstop in all of baseball?

There are a lot more guys that fit the criteria established in scenario #2.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Well, um, uh, cough, um, Rich Harden. So there.

Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager

by northsider on Jun 7, 2008 5:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmmm

Is this Soriano you are talking about?

“His value goes far beyond any defensive limitations as noted ad nauseum.”

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Jun 6, 2008 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right.

Remember, Ryan Theriot has intangibles, and therefore overcomes his poor defense. Nobody ever bitches about Lou not taking Theriot out for defense late, even though the odds of a ball being hit to shortstop are much higher than the odds of a ball being hit to left field.

Soriano, on the other hand, does not have intangibles, as defined as “BlueMike likes him.” So he doesn’t get a free pass.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

of course

Lou almost never takes out Riot late for defense.

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 6, 2008 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

To be honest, I don't think Lou is particularly concerned with defense.

Every so often it’ll crop up, but most of the time he thinks a player’s job is to hit first, field second.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

I sort of agree with him...

up to a point. I can sacrifice a little for offense. You can’t beat teams if you don’t score. Defense doesn’t wear the opposing pitchers down. On the other hand…you’ve got to get 24-27 outs before the other team.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 6, 2008 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please don't quote facts to BlueMike

They only confuse him and make him call you names because he can’t defend a single opinion he spews.

by ScottT on Jun 6, 2008 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Except by supporting his statements

with the as of yet unsupported statement that he played baseball in college

"Very adroit in the outfield." - Lou, on Dome

by gwood on Jun 6, 2008 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Such a glaring admission you are wrong

"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope."

by californiachicagoan on Jun 6, 2008 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That has

virtually nothing to do with the question posed by cwyers

"Very adroit in the outfield." - Lou, on Dome

by gwood on Jun 6, 2008 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's also a bad defensive shortstop.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

100% agree

He is a bad shortstop defensively and most of us recognize that. We also recognize that his offensive production is offsetting that defense…for now. More than likely that production will go down and his defense will begin to hurt the team more than he’s worth.

Others, however, think his whiteness, hustle, and scappiness will somehow cause Ramirez and Lee to suddenly figure out how to hit 20 more HRs each or something to offset the runs he’s costing us. That’s ridiculous. Major league players don’t need Theriot to pump them up or whatever to do their jobs that they are already very good at.

by Tate491 on Jun 6, 2008 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And if that offense starts to go down...

... I would think Lou would put Cedeno out there in about two seconds.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 6, 2008 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

I honestly think that if Lou had a daughter Ryans age he would do everything in his power to make Ryan his son-in-law; he loves Theriot.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Jun 6, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If by "two seconds"

you mean “two months,” then I agree.

by DGU on Jun 6, 2008 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why do you think that Theriot's offensive production is offseting his deficiencies on defense?

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Honestly I don't.

But its hard for a manager to bench a player with that kind of average.

by Tate491 on Jun 6, 2008 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and, more importantly, OBP

"Very adroit in the outfield." - Lou, on Dome

by gwood on Jun 6, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's the question.

Theriot’s a bad SS. Do we
1) cut his playing time;
2) move him to 2B and trade DeRosa;
3) move him to 2B, move DeRosa to RF and Dome to CF?

by DGU on Jun 6, 2008 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

1.

Moving the best Right-fielder in the major leagues out of right-field isn’t a good idea, and DeRosa was hired to be the starting 2b-man.

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 6, 2008 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

seriously?

you want to cut theriot’s playing time the way he’s playing????????

by cubsmania on Jun 6, 2008 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes.

The way he’s been playing has been pretty subpar once you consider defense and baserunning.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

As long as he keeps hitting...

... you can live with that, I think.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 7, 2008 4:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think it holds up

Don’t get me wrong; I like that he hits, but given his lack of power, I have to wonder if he’s letting more runs score than he’s producing.

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 7, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, sure, I'm not going to DIE if Ryan Theriot keeps playing shortstop.

But I think it’s exceedingly charitable to say he’s outhitting his mistakes.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 7, 2008 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes.

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 7, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's gone from "saber-magic" to "saber-math".

Would that be considered progress?

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on Jun 6, 2008 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it's because most of us sabermagicians...

...really enjoyed being called magicians.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can I make a confession?

I’ve honestly been considering learning how to use Photoshop just to create an actual image of a “sabermagician.” I daydream about it on the train sometimes.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on Jun 6, 2008 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hello

sig line!

"And there's a...BASE HIT! Fair ball! Fontenot will score! CUBS WIN!" -Len Kasper, 5.28.08

by neverAcquiesce on Jun 6, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pardon?

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on Jun 6, 2008 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What you said

could be a sig line. Try to keep up. ;)

"And there's a...BASE HIT! Fair ball! Fontenot will score! CUBS WIN!" -Len Kasper, 5.28.08

by neverAcquiesce on Jun 6, 2008 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah, I see what you mean.

I’m a poet and I didn’t know it.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on Jun 6, 2008 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 6, 2008 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ehhh...I'm picturing more of a Merlin the Magician thing...

...with all sorts of sabremetric abbreviations swirling around him. VORP, OOZ, BABIP and whatnot.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on Jun 6, 2008 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tomorrow...

you will have it.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 6, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Awesome, thanks!

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on Jun 6, 2008 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How about this for starters?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 6, 2008 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Statistics...

YOU SHALL NOT PASS~!

"And there's a...BASE HIT! Fair ball! Fontenot will score! CUBS WIN!" -Len Kasper, 5.28.08

by neverAcquiesce on Jun 6, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's actually pretty good!

But I was thinking of something a little more dramatic, like this:

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on Jun 6, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I suggest

"Very adroit in the outfield." - Lou, on Dome

by gwood on Jun 6, 2008 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nah...

he’s a sorcerer…not a wizard.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 6, 2008 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Uh oh. This is getting complicated.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.

by dat cubfan daver on Jun 6, 2008 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm thinking a totally different direction:

Dr. Strangestatlove: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love VORP

by DGU on Jun 6, 2008 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And have it you shall...

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 7, 2008 2:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 6, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Madame Sosostris, famous clairvoyante,
Had a bad cold, nevertheless
Is known to be the wisest woman in Europe,
With a wicked pack of cards.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bravo, Sir-

We’ve now seen Proust and Eliot cited here on BCB this season….can Joyce be far behind?

"Eighty-five percent of the world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here." - Lee Elia, 1983

"The only thing that bothers me is that I would never want to destroy the love and what the fans of Chicago are to the Chicago Cubs. I mean, God knows. If there's one pure thing in baseball, it is the fans of Chicago." - Lee Elia, 2008

by CaughtInTheVines on Jun 6, 2008 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ask and you shall receive:

End here. Us then. Finn, again! Take. Bussoftlhee, mememormee! Till thousandsthee. Lps. The keys to. Given! A way a lone a last a loved a long the / riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jun 7, 2008 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

so

by no measure other than your opinion.

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 6, 2008 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You did notice

BM had no answer for all of your posts didn’t you?

by sue369 on Jun 6, 2008 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

he never does.

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 7, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think when it comes to Theriot

we have a tendency to become a little clouded by the positives he brings; he hustles, works the count, gets a big hit, etc.
But everything you say about his defensive inadequacies is essentially true. He’s definitely better suited to second base with his arm and below average range. As much as I love DeRo-I have a feeling that if the Cubs had known how much Theriot was going to develop offensively, they never would’ve signed him (DeRosa) and Cedeno and Theriot would be our DP combo right now.

by bluekoolaide on Jun 6, 2008 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

to a certain degree

you could say the same thing about soriano…..we think of soriano’s bat and sometimes that clouds his bad defense

by cubsmania on Jun 6, 2008 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

except

I don’t think Soriano’s all that bad, compared to other Left-Fielders.

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jun 7, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you're asking me?

I just threw an opinion out there based on the consensus type stats ESPN uses, which has him at 16th in MLB: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=82&sortOrder=true&sortColumn=fieldingPct

That’s about average…..some don’t think that D can accurately be measured, contrary to what Mr Dewan believes http://www.fieldingbible.com/....but who knows? I think it to be measureable, but more susceptible to grey arreas than other aspects of the game…..but I’ve always appreciated defense more than any aspect of the game.

BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"

by cubfever7 on Jun 6, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The knock on Theriot's defense is that he doesn't get to a lot of baseball.

Fielding percentage doesn’t measure that. Look at that page and sort by ZR and see where he ends up. The answer – third to last.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, I had dome that before the I put the fanpost up...

..but ESPN uses some type of hybrid consolidation of multiple categories. I don’t think ESPN’s method is the best, but at least it takes multiple metrics into account. There’s something to be said for not screwing up the routine play; albeit with limited range.

BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"

by cubfever7 on Jun 6, 2008 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It doesn't, so far as I'm aware.

It lists all the categories, but sorts them by only one at a time.

And there’s something to be said for a guy who makes the routine play, but has limited range – he should be playing second or third base. When you also have Theriot’s poor arm, then second base is your defensive position.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're right...it sorts them first and foremost by %

I had soreted several fields and got myself discombulated and thought the primary sort did not have a fielding% correlation top to bottom, but it does.

I also agree that he’d be better suited to 2B. Wrigley’s official scorers have long been known for being homers in assigning errors, so the fielding % of any Cub is open to criticism, but he is in fact 16th in MLB fielding% ; zone rating, arm or not.

Maybe the lineup conundrum posed by moving Theriot to 2nd is why Lou seems reluctant to let Cedeno start very often—he loses either DeRosa’s or Theriot’s bat if he does.

BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"

by cubfever7 on Jun 6, 2008 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fairly Happy with Defense

Of course, I like Dome and DLee. I think Soto and even A-Ram are above average defensively. I know A-Ram hasn’t show that this year. Edmonds and Johnson aren’t half bad defensively in CF. DeRosa and Theriot won’t be mistaken for Sandberg and Bowa. DeRo and The Riot are still passable with the glove. Then, there’s Soriano in LF. He sure can throw the ball. My hope is he will be able to get to more balls and actually catch them as his legs get healthier.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jun 6, 2008 2:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

On the year so far, Soriano rates as a better defender than Theriot

Whether by fielding percentage, or ZR, or relative ranks. If Theriot is passable, then you should be happy with Soriano

"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope."

by californiachicagoan on Jun 6, 2008 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Lou said it too, DOME, is probably the best RF in the game right now. He is so good and getting to balls and holding hitters to singles. Big fan of his game out there.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Jun 6, 2008 2:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I really like the fact that there's nothing much to say about Dome's defense

because it’s just so solid. Ryan Theriot’s going to dominate any discussion about Cub defense (unless the Chicago print media are involved) because of the controversy, but Fukudome has been a solid anchor and for that we are all thankful.

by DGU on Jun 6, 2008 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i agree with the crowd that believes theriot can/will stay around as long as his offense is at this level

even a slight dip wouldn’t change things. if he dropped to the .250 BA range, then i would think changes are in order. he’s very comparable to ian kinsler at Texas, who is the worst defensive AL 2B, but is a dynamite leadoff hitter who can hit for power and steal bases. the riot’s offense, base running and intangibles are enough for the time being to offset the glove. he may not be the best athlete for the position, but the guy is a baseball player

by Waveland Ave on Jun 6, 2008 3:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

LSA

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 6, 2008 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Problem with the comparison to Kinsler

is that Theriot doesn’t hit for power and is caught stealing far too many times to be considered anything but a liability as a baserunner. If Theriot were sporting a 124 OPS+ and had stolen 17 bases without being caught once, it’d be much easier to overlook the bad D.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jun 6, 2008 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i know kinsler and theriot have different strengths

i just compared the two because of their positive offensive contribution to their teams thus far and their similar deficiencies with the leather.

FWIW, theriot’s OBP is 55 points higher than kinsler’s

by Waveland Ave on Jun 6, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My problem with that

is that their respective positive offensive contributions are not nearly the same. Not just in type, but in magnitude. Kinsler is a much, MUCH better ofensive player than Theriot. 17 stolen bases and 0 caught stealing. Are you kidding me?

"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope."

by californiachicagoan on Jun 6, 2008 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kinsler also has the track record.

Two years of solid performance coming into this season. Theriot has the minor league numbers of a guy like Brian Bixler, his cup of coffee from 2006, and then for 2007 had the fifth-lowest OPS of any qualified starter. It’s not really a fair comparison.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jun 6, 2008 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs