Off Day Topic: HOF Worthy??
by cubsluver22 on Jun 9, 2008 9:04 AM CDT
Email
PrintThis is a topic Ive wanted to talk about for awhile. I would like others opinions on Hall of Fame worthy past or current players that are soon to retire. In or Out? Please don't turn this into a steroid diary. We all know there are alot of players who used and thats not my point in this diary. Here are a few of mine:
1) varitek--out
2)biggio-1st ballot
3)bagwell-out
4)kent-in
5)r. johnson,smoltz,glavine,maddux-1st ballot
6)lofton-out
7)griffey-1st ballot of course
8) pudge-in
9)piazza-in
10)hoffman,wagner--in
Alot of good catchers and closers who have contributed alot to the game. Seems not too many have been inducted but will that change?
p.s. Ron Santo had better be inducted soon!
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
111 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
From your list...
... I disagree with the following:
Jeff Bagwell may get in. The voters may look at his injury-shortened career and take a look at his peak performance.
Jeff Kent—probably NOT in. He’s a jerk and writers often won’t vote for jerks.
Billy Wagner will have to be an elite closer for several more seasons before he gets in.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
But Kent
Holds the record for the most homers all tim for a second basemen. He’s gotta be in.
"You know they're not going to lose 162 games." Harry Caray
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jun 9, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
he's a terrible fielder, though
he’s a corner OF/1B playing second base. Sandberg was good all-around.
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 9, 2008 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Lest ask Joe Morgan what HE thinks... LOL
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
:) Kent, out. Sandberg, out.
Mazeroski, Herman, Hornsby, out, out, out!
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 9, 2008 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
What does Morgan think? Anybody know?
...He seems to state his opinion a lot, so I figured it would be known in public. Anyway, like he matters… I think Kent will get in, it just might take 5 or so years before he does. Maybe a little bit longer, but unless somebody comes around and breaks his HR record, he’ll get in.
by TheHawkRules on Jun 9, 2008 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Morgan's opinion definitely matters
He’s a fairly influential member of the Veteran’s Committee, but he’s been very vague in any public statements as to who he believes should and should not be elected into the HOF.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
It's pretty transparent...
to most people that Morgan’s of the opinion that nobody really deserves to be elected to the HOF. Except maybe Sheffield.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 9, 2008 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
And himself.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
I should have said
nobody else.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 9, 2008 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Bagwell should get in
Like you said, he had an injury shortened career and without it, he might have gotten 50 homeruns.
"You know they're not going to lose 162 games." Harry Caray
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jun 9, 2008 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions
I should be in the HOF too!!!
I had an injury shortend career which prevented me from playing past high school. But, I would have hit 500 home runs easily.
But Bagwell was 50 homers away
And he retired at 37. He still could’ve played another three years.
"You know they're not going to lose 162 games." Harry Caray
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jun 9, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
No, he couldn't.
His back injuries were too severe.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Please
induct Santo before he’s not with us to enjoy it. Don’t do it after he’s gone because it means so much to cubs fans and to Ronnie. He deserves to get the vote.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
You left off your list:
Mariano Rivera – I don’t know how much longer he’s going to be throwing, but I think he’s first-ballot.
Interesting...
I disagree on some of them:
1) Varitek – Out
2) Biggio – In, but not 1st ballot
3) Bagwell, Thomas – I think both eventually get in but Thomas gets in a year or two sooner
4) Kent – Not sure, offensively great but not sure how much he’ll be discounted for playing in the 90s. Remember when Ryno was a sure fire first ballot guy? It’s like the 80s never happened.
5) Spot on and ideally the Braves would all be done this year but I think Maddux has another one or two more in him. I do think Smoltz and Glavine are done this year though.
6) Lofton – No chance
7) Griffey – Duh
8) Pudge – Eventually (2nd year maybe)
9) Piazza – Eventually (2nd year maybe)
10) Hoffman – In, Wagner – Not yet and maybe not ever.
With the closers, they’re so new that I don’t think this current crop has a legitimate shot unless they are statistically beyond everyone. Mariano and Hoffman are the only ones right now who should be essentially locks but Wagner has a shot and in the way to early to talk about KRod could eventually get in but he’d have to continue on at his current level for at minimum 8 to 10 years so it’ll be difficult (but then that’s what makes it earned I guess).
Others off the top of my head: Chipper – In, Santo – Duh but will it happen soon enough?, Pettite – will get closer than anyone thinks he would/should but still out. Call it a “being honest and upfront about it” bonus. Johan – Needs a couple average for him years but eventually in. Ichiro – In, and the two biggest – Pujols and ARod are in. ARod could go it now but Pujols needs a couple years to cement it just a little bit but they’ve already done so much only a catastrophic tragedy should keep them out.
Piazza is first ballot
No doubt. And so is Biggio, 3000 career hits is a first ballot milestone in my opinion.
"You know they're not going to lose 162 games." Harry Caray
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jun 9, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Will Roger Clemens get in?
Or will people look at the ‘riods and decide his is not worthy?
The 100th time has GOT to be a charm...
Good question.
I think the votes so far for Mark McGwire answer this question. Clemens has stained his own legacy with his actions the last few months.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Big Hurt
You forgot Frank Thomas, who really should get in without any doubt—probably first ballot. Unfortunately for him, the fact he spent most of his career as a DH, the length he played after his peak years (at this rate, he might retire having played a full decade in decline), the fact that he wasn’t loved by the media, and the fact he played in a steriod-inflated era all work against him. Personally, I think the Thomas vote will be the most interesting non-steriods-related vote on the horizon. He really should get in, but we shall see.
...come to think of it, you also didn’t mention Rickey Henderson, but he’s probably the most automatic inductee in the next few years so it’s hardly worth mentioning.
My take
Randy Johnson – YES
Greg Maddux – YES
Tom Glavine – YES
John Smoltz – YES
Pedro Martinez – YES
Trevor Hoffman – YES
Craig Biggio – YES
Ken Griffey Jr. – YES
Mike Piazza – YES
Pudge Rodriquez – YES
Frank Thomas – YES
Jason Varitek – NO
Jeff Bagwell – NO
Jim Thome – NO
Jeff Kent – Borderline
Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA
What about Rich Harden?
In or Out? What say you?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 9, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Harden struck out the side on nine pitches.
He’s automatically in now.
"You know they're not going to lose 162 games." Harry Caray
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jun 9, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
LOL!
I haz show: http://hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on Jun 9, 2008 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Lee Arthur Smith
With Sutter and Gossage already in the HoF, it’s time to put Lee Smith in the Hall. He had 13 straight seasons with at least 25 saves. He led his league in saves four times. He was the all-time saves leader for over a decade. He’s still #2 all-time. He had more good seasons than any other reliever of the 1980’s and early 1990’s.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
No
Lee Smith was not in the class of Bruce Sutter or Goose Gossage. He hung around for a long time ala Harold Baines. That, in and of itself, does not make somebody Hall of Fame worthy. Most importantly, Smith was never considered a “mega-dominant” closer for a several year stretch. He was a good closer, not a great one. 471 saves doesn’t mean that much in the grand scheme.
Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA
Sorry, 471 saves does mean something...
in the era of baseball when he got those…471 saves adjusted for “baseball inflation” is more like 525 today. But what do I know…I’m no Sabermagician!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 9, 2008 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Well done, santoswoodenlegs!
Yes, I’m finally getting around to reading this thread and checking out your latest masterwork. This is amazingly close to the image I had in my head. I may have to make this my desktop wallpaper. Thanks again!
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
Here we go again:
Bruce Sutter, lifetime: 1042.3 IP, 861 K, 300 SV, 2.83 ERA, 1.14 WHIP
Goose Gossage, lifetime: 1809.3 IP, 1502 K, 310 SV, 3.01 ERA, 1.23 WHIP
Lee Smith, lifetime: 1289.3 IP, 1251 K, 478 SV, 3.03 ERA, 1.26 WHIP
It would appear that Lee Arthur Smith is, indeed, in the class of Sutter and Gossage.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Hank Aaron of Relievers
Hank Aaron may not have been as good in his prime as Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, and Frank Robinson. Aaron had more good seasons than those players and a better career. Aaron was the all-time home run king. He is now #2 all-time. He could be passed eventually by A-Rod.
Lee Smith may not have been as good in his prime as Goose Gossage, Bruce Sutter, and Dennis Eckersley. Smith had more good seasons as a reliever than those guys. That means Smith had a better career as a reliever. Remember, Gossage had a lot of years after leaving the Padres of “hanging around” as a mediocre relief pitcher. Smith only had 2 or 3 after leaving the Angels. Smith was the all-time saves leader. He is now #2. Smith should be passed by Rivera.
Aaron was the HR king of his era. Smith was the saves king of his era.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
Hall of Fame voters disagree with you guys
I watched Lee Smith live and in person during his best years. Like I said, he was never in the category of “great” closers during any stretch of his career. There was always a couple other guys around who you would say are better.
I’ll be very surprised to see him get in the Hall. Maybe someday way down the road the Veteran’s Committee will vote him in.
Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA
HOF voters also don't think Santo or Jim Rice should be in, so
they’re obviously fallible. Unlike you, though, they can admit when they’re terrifically wrong. YOU, not the HOF voters, YOU, BlueMike, said Smith wasn’t in Sutter or Goassage’s class. The falsity of that statement that YOU made has been demonstrated, and still you are too haughty to admit your fault.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
My opinion?
Jim Rice is not Hall of Fame worthy. Ditto Ron Santo. Sorry, but that’s how I feel. I love Ron Santo as much as anybody, but not once in his career was he classified as a great player. The fact that he was never considered clutch, vaporized during the 2nd half of 1969 and never otherwise played in the heat of a playoff race further hurts his credentials. What also goes under-reported is the fact, right or wrong, that Ron Santo was widely considered an ass by opponents as well as many of his fellow Cubbie teammates. His antics and cockiness wore very thin with a lot of people.
Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA
Still avoiding the issue.
YOU said Lee Smith wasn’t in the same class as Sutter and Gossage; that was plainly wrong, as the numbers how. And don’t even bother equivocating on what you meant by “class.”
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
He wasn't in the class of Sutter or Gossage
Not even close. Hence why his Hall of Fame vote tally to date has been as low as it has been. I was there for Lee Smith as Cubbie closer. His period of “greatness” was brief, if ever. Being good for a long time doesn’t make you Hall of Fame worthy. It’s the Harold Baines argument. And it applies to Smith.
Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA
LOOK AT HIS STATS
He even pitched longer than Sutter! Stop saying things that just are not true. You know nothing. Look up a fact. Read a damn book.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Longetivity isn't a qualifier for Hall of Fame admission
There are loads of players who were pretty good for a long time. Does that make them Hall of Fame worthy? No. Exhibit A is Lee Smith.
Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA
Exhibit B is Biggio.
just sayn’
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 9, 2008 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Kinda sorta agree
Though in the case of Craig Biggio he hit the magical 3,000 hit mark. His greatest accomplishment in my opinion is over 1,000 extra base hits to include all those doubles plus 400 stolen bases. And he was a real good 2nd baseman for a number of years. Not as good as Robbie Alomar or Ryne Sandberg, but pretty darn good.
Rich Harden !! 8 starts, 3-0, 47 IP, 58 Ks, 2.85 ERA
So your willing to give Biggio a HOF plaque..
based on arbitrary (magical) #s put up over a very long and good (but not dominate) career…but not Smith?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 9, 2008 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Please don't equate Biggio to Smith
Because that would be silly. Even for you. Biggio was one of the best 2nd baseman the game has ever seen when you sum up his offensive, defensive and leadership accomplishments. And getting to 3,000 hits will forever punch the ticket to Cooperstown.
Smith? He won’t get into the Hall. Maybe someday the Veteran’s Committee will examine his credentials under a different light. But I doubt it. The word “great” was rarely attached to Lee Arthur Smith. Hence the dilemma.
Rich Harden !! 8 starts, 3-0, 47 IP, 58 Ks, 2.85 ERA
That's not a dilemma.
There are lots of players in the Hall who were never called great. That a completely obtuse thing to say, and, as I shown, Lee’s numbers place him among the greats. He should be in, but you’re funtioned from some pretty flawed logic, which seems to flow like so:
P1.) If a player does not deserve to be the HOF, they are not in the HOF
P2.) Lee Smith is not in the HOF
C.) Therefore, Lee Smith doesn’t deserve to be in the HOF.
That’s what we like to call “affirming the consequent” and it’s a completely invalid form of argument. Lee Smith may indeed not deserve to be a HOF’er, but your arguments certainly don’t prove that.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Nice strawman.
My kid nephew is a better arguer than you. I never made that claim,. You asserted Lee had a short period of dominance. Look at the numbers: it’s not true, as I pointed out. Furthermore, now you’ve contradicted yourself, as you previously said Smith was never a dominant closer. Which is it BlueMike?
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Smith's Post-Cubs Years
Don’t forget that Smith led the NL in saves with the Cards in 1991 and 1992. He also led the AL in saves with Baltimore in 1994. With the Cubs, he did lead the NL in saves in 1983. Smith was a league leader in saves four times. Gossage was a league leader in saves only three times.
If one only looks at what Smith did as Cubbie closer, Smith doesn’t merit consideration. He had a lot of good years after the Cubs inexplicably traded Lee Arthur to Boston for Calvin Schiraldi and Al Nipper. Smith is worthy of the Hall. I’m afraid he won’t get there, though.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
Furthermore:
Santo, lifetime:
RiSP: .281/.387/.476
2 outs, RiSP: .271/.409/.465
Close at Late Situations: .281/.373/.483
High Leverage Situations: .295/.372/.521
Once again, you are terrifically WRONG. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Yawn
Shame on me for relaxing for a moment my rule of not communicating with nutjobs and/or the baseball clueless. Tell you what, when you can produce proof of Lee Smith’s or Ron Santo’s Hall of Fame plaque then get back to me. Otherwise goodbye.
Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA
You said Santo wasn't clutch.
Once again, you’re proven wrong and reply with a complete nonsequitur. You don’t know what you’re talking about. YOU are “baseball clueless.”
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Do me a big favor
Think twice about heading to the post office today. Either that or take a triple dose of Valium.
Rich Harden !! 8 starts, 3-0, 47 IP, 58 Ks, 2.85 ERA
Again, what does that have to do with anything?
Do you think Santo was clutch, given those numbers?
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Wow, this is classic MDBNIU in this thread.
Anyone wondering why this guy draws scorn like tornados to trailer parks need look no further for an explanation.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Oh, and remember, folks: Alfonso Soriano is NOT batting leadoff. He's batting first.
in other words
oh, hell, I been proved wrong again; therefore I will feign nonchalance and get out of the argument by ignoring those who speak to me, once again.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jun 9, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Totally Agree They Disagree
I’d be surprised if Smith got into the Hall. The voters took way too long to put Sutter and Goose into the HoF. I hope they don’t drag their feet to put Hoffman and Rivera in after they retire. I brought up Lee Smith because he’s the most glaring omission of players I can remember playing.
I don’t remember Ron Santo. I feel more strongly about Lee Arthur than Dawson. I think Dawson should get in because of his HR’s, RBI’s, SB’s, and defense. Dawson’s low OBP sticks out like a sore thumb in defending his case. Smith’s consistency and number of saves in his era should, but won’t, put him over the top. I don’t agree with the voters.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
Mariano Rivera will be a first ballot admission
All you need to look at is his utter dominance in the playoffs for 12 straight years. To me Rivera is already the greatest closer of all time.
Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA
Throwing some more names out there for future consideration
Manny Ramirez
Alex Rodriguez
Derek Jeter
Albert Pujols
Chipper Jones
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
Current Active Leaders in Wins
1. Greg Maddux (42) 350 R
2. Tom Glavine* (42) 305 L
3. Randy Johnson* (44) 288 L
4. Mike Mussina (39) 259 R
5. Jamie Moyer* (45) 236 L
6. Curt Schilling (41) 216 R
7. Kenny Rogers* (43) 214 L
8. Pedro Martinez (36) 210 R
8. John Smoltz (41) 210 R
10. Andy Pettitte* (36) 206 L
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
Going to guess
1. Greg Maddux – YES
2. Tom Glavine* – YES
3. Randy Johnson – Yes, those dominant years
4. Mike Mussina – Doubt it, solid, consistent, not dominant.
5. Jamie Moyer – Uh, no
6. Curt Schilling – Yes – Post Season success
7. Kenny Rogers – No
8. Pedro Martinez – Yes, those dominant years
8. John Smoltz – Yes, saves put him over
10. Andy Pettitte – No
Well..
1. Greg Maddux (42) 350 R - YES
2. Tom Glavine* (42) 305 L - YES
3. Randy Johnson* (44) 288 L - YES (one of the most dominant pitchers of any era)
4. Mike Mussina (39) 259 R - NO (always good, never really great)
5. Jamie Moyer* (45) 236 L - NO
6. Curt Schilling (41) 216 R - NO
7. Kenny Rogers* (43) 214 L - NO
8. Pedro Martinez (36) 210 R - YES (a dominant pitcher during his heyday)
8. John Smoltz (41) 210 R - YES
10. Andy Pettitte* (36) 206 L - NO
Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA
Current Active Leaders in Hits
1. Barry Bonds* (43) 2935 L
2. Ken Griffey* (38) 2614 L
2. Omar Vizquel# (41) 2614 B
4. Luis Gonzalez* (40) 2551 L
5. Gary Sheffield (39) 2550 R
6. Ivan Rodriguez (36) 2542 R
7. Frank Thomas (40) 2448 R
8. Kenny Lofton* (41) 2428 L
9. Derek Jeter (34) 2420 R
10. Sammy Sosa (39) 2408 R
11. Jeff Kent (40) 2386 R
12. Alex Rodriguez (32) 2300 R
13. Manny Ramirez (36) 2279 R
14. Garret Anderson* (36) 2267 L
15. Chipper Jones# (36) 2209 B
16. Johnny Damon* (34) 2178 L
17. Moises Alou (41) 2133 R
18. Mike Piazza (39) 2127 R
19. Vladimir Guerrero (32) 2026 R
20. Shawn Green* (35) 2003 L
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
I gotta vote Vizquel in... we haven't mentioned him.
Helluva career… and the best fielding SS of his time.
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
Well
1. Barry Bonds* (43) 2935 L - HELL NO (but he will get in)
2. Ken Griffey* (38) 2614 L - YES
2. Omar Vizquel# (41) 2614 B - YES (an outstanding shortstop for many years)
4. Luis Gonzalez* (40) 2551 L - NO
5. Gary Sheffield (39) 2550 R - NO (roid boy)
6. Ivan Rodriguez (36) 2542 R - YES
7. Frank Thomas (40) 2448 R - YES
8. Kenny Lofton* (41) 2428 L - NO
9. Derek Jeter (34) 2420 R - YES
10. Sammy Sosa (39) 2408 R - NO
11. Jeff Kent (40) 2386 R - Borderline
12. Alex Rodriguez (32) 2300 R - YES
13. Manny Ramirez (36) 2279 R - YES
14. Garret Anderson* (36) 2267 L - WHY is he even on the list?
15. Chipper Jones# (36) 2209 B - YES, but he needs to keep playing for 3 or 4 more years
16. Johnny Damon* (34) 2178 L - NO
17. Moises Alou (41) 2133 R - NO
18. Mike Piazza (39) 2127 R - YES
19. Vladimir Guerrero (32) 2026 R - MAYBE
20. Shawn Green* (35) 2003 L - NO
Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA
Bill Wagner?
Really?
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Current Active Leaders in HRs
1. Barry Bonds* (43) 762 L
2. Sammy Sosa (39) 609 R
3. Ken Griffey* (38) 599 L
4. Alex Rodriguez (32) 527 R
5. Frank Thomas (40) 520 R
6. Jim Thome* (37) 519 L
7. Manny Ramirez (36) 504 R
8. Gary Sheffield (39) 483 R
9. Carlos Delgado* (36) 439 L
10. Mike Piazza (39) 427 R
11. Chipper Jones# (36) 401 B
12. Jason Giambi* (37) 378 L
13. Vladimir Guerrero (32) 373 R
13. Jeff Kent (40) 373 R
15. Andruw Jones (31) 370 R
16. Jim Edmonds* (38) 364 L
17. Luis Gonzalez* (40) 351 L
18. Moises Alou (41) 332 R
19. Shawn Green* (35) 328 L
20. Todd Helton* (34) 309 L
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
Current Active Leaders in Posts About Rich Harden
1. MDBNIU 231
2. MDBNIU 206
3. MDBNIU 187
4. MDBNIU 178
5. 36 way tie between MDBNIU and MDBNIU 122
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 9, 2008 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
That list has to be updated already.
1. MDBNIU 2314
2. MDBNIU 2066
3. MDBNIU 1873
4. MDBNIU 1781
5. 36 way tie between MDBNIU and MDBNIU 1228
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Another question
Do y’all think that Maddux is a unanimous election to the hall? Never has been one before if I remember correctly. How could you NOT vote him in, though?
You mean to tell me...
Joe Morgan wasn’t a unanimous selection?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 9, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
No.
There are always those dumbass reporters who see it as some sort of warped obligation to insure that no one ever gets in unanimously. Check out some of the articles from around the time Ripken was voted in – you don’t get any more obvious and deserving than Ripken, and yet there were still a couple percent of voters who didn’t vote for him on principality.
I'm Eating Pizza and Stating My Opinion!
Randy Johnson should go. I wouldn’t vote him in at 100% though. Still, he is a 1st year man!
Greg Maddux should have 100% of the vote. Any person who does not vote him in during his first year shouldn’t be allowed to vote because they are a disservice to baseball!
Tom Glavine is a yepper!
John Smoltz could go either way. I wouldn’t think less of a writer for not voting for him, but I know I would. Not on his 1st year though. Sadly, injuries robbed him of how great he could have become. He still rocked though!
Pedro Martinez I’d vote for him after a couple of years. His attitude kinda… well, he was a great pitcher.
Trevor Hoffman would close out the ceremony if I had my way! Yes.
Craig Biggio Yes… but maybe 2nd year.
Ken Griffey Jr. Yes.
Mike Piazza – I sure would… maybe 2nd year also. Maybe not though. I’d have to think on it, but he’d get in.
Pudge Rodriquez I’d vote for him after a few years. Great player… but there was just something…
Frank Thomas 1st year!
Jason Varitek Probably not…Sorry man.
Jeff Bagwell I would after a couple of years. Injuries hurt his career totals…. but he still was awesome.
Jim Thome will he be the 1st 500 HR man not to make it? I might vote for him… after 7 or so years on the ballot.
Jeff Kent If nobody breaks the 2nd base HR record, i’d prolly vote for him 5 or so years on the ballot. But he is NO 1st year man.
Good grief
Either a player is a Hall of Fame worthy on the first ballot or he is not. Randy Johnson will go down in history as one of the most dominant pitchers of all time. Ditto Pedro Martinez. If they aren’t first ballot 100% of the vote guys then something is very wrong with the system.
Get Rich Harden !! 7 starts, 3-0, 41 IP, 49 Ks, 2.61 ERA
Something Wrong With System
There are idiots who will not vote for the Big Unit. He should get 100%. He won’t. Because of Pedro’s “low” victory total, he won’t come close to 100%. He might still gain induction. He is worthy. He won’t be a first ballot HoF’er.
Yes, there are voters who will vote for a player on a later ballot but not the first ballot. That bothers me, too. Once a player is retired for good, his statistics don’t change. There is something wrong with the system. For starters, if someone doesn’t receive at least 25% of the votes on first ballot, that player should be removed from future consideration. Right now, 5% is the threshold.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
You're right...
... I agree with you. But that’s not how things are done anymore. I just went with the style of how things go now. If all that mattered was a simple “yes or no,” then pay no attention to the extra things I said and throw ‘em all that got a “yes” in.
So if everybody wants to crucifix me for following traffic… then go ahead.
by TheHawkRules on Jun 9, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Disagree on Pedro
He was absolutely dominant for a decade. One of the top 3 or 4 pitchers in baseball. Several Cy Youngs and a World Series ring too. Pedro will be a first ballot Hall of Famer.
We’ve been blessed with a handful of the greatest pitchers ever to play the game and sometimes we don’t even realize it…..The Big Unit, Pedro, Greg Maddux, Mariano Rivera. Not to mention John Smoltz and Tom Glavine. Roger Clemens is there too, but the damage done by the steroids during the sunset phase of his career will haunt him for awhile.
Two pitchers who have amazed me the most in 35 years of following major league baseball….Randy Johnson and Steve Carlton.
Rich Harden !! 8 starts, 3-0, 47 IP, 58 Ks, 2.85 ERA
"He might still get induction"?
"Might"? From what I recall Koufax was a first ballot HOF:
165-87 (.655) 2324.3IP 2396K’s 2.76ERA 131ERA+ 1.106WHIP 3 Cy Young and one other top 5 finish
210-93 (.693) 2688.0IP 3038K’s 2.83ERA 159ERA+ 1.034WHIP 3 Cy Young and 4 top 5 finishes
The two men to have the best most dominant 5 year stretch of any pitchers in history. Stats tend towards giving the edge to Pedro on this one, I’d say anything but a first ballot induction would be a disgrace.
Koufax’s stats are on top, Pedro bottom.
...
Pedro Is Worthy of Hall
Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, and R Johnson have had better careers. You will have idiots that won’t vote for Maddux, Glavine and R Johnson. There will be even more idiots who won’t vote for Pedro. A lot of those idiots won’t vote for Pedro on the first ballot because they feel those others are more worthy. I personally think that’s stupid. I’d certainly vote for Pedro on the first ballot. I don’t have much faith in these voters.
I think Pedro will be inducted, but not on the first ballot. In Koufax’s case, I believe the voters were sympathetic to his arthritis. I don’t think the current voters will be as sympathetic to Pedro’s injuries. Does that make sense? I don’t know, but we’re dealing with HoF voters.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
Makes sense
but, do you honestly think theyll be idiots that dont vote for Maddux?
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
(Cringing) Yes
Anyone who doesn’t vote for Maddux should have their voting privileges revoked. You’ve got profanely arrogant voters who don’t want anyone unanimously elected because other greats before them were not.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
Exactly.
That is exactly what I said above… Maddux is probably the best all-around pitcher that I will ever see in my life time. He was never blessed with overpowering stuff, like Clemens or whoever, he just did things the old fashioned way of hard work, dedication, and for a love for baseball. He handled things off the field in a professional manner, and I believe (without checking my stats) he’s won more gold gloves than any pitcher ever. Add all of that to his usual pitching stats, and in my opinion, he is the best pitcher ever. Plus, his best seasons where during the steroid era! That’s incredible because he proves that it doesn’t take power to be one the best… he’s awesome and if any HOF voter DOES NOT vote for him should find another sport to write about. ‘nuff said!
I don't think the voters were symphathetic to Koufax's arthritis...
He was SO dominant….as a LHP, the only one who comes close would be Randy Johnson. However, compared to Koufax, he is a mere mortal. Koufax sat out a great deal of the 1962 season because his hand was numbed due to the arthritic elbow. He pitched the last four years with that elbow and….well, let me put it this way. With today’s bigger, stronger and year-round trained athletes, Koufax would probably only win 12 – 16 games a year. Of course, he is almost 80…...
by crazymountain on Jun 9, 2008 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Good Grief? Not anymore...
I agree that it should be like that, and originally was. Somewhere along the way, things have changed. The Game has changed, and so has everything that goes with it. I just went along with the current style of voting… So as you say, there is “something wrong with the system.” Unfortunately, I have no way of changing it. So either go with the flow, or don’t. Either way, what we say doesn’t really matter.
by TheHawkRules on Jun 9, 2008 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Thome and 500
He would be the second 500 HR person not to make it if he doesn’t ‘make it. I don’t see R. Palmiero making it into the HOF if Thome doesn’t make it in.
If Thomas isn’t a first ballot HOF’er, they need to revoke the voting credentials of the writers that don’t vote for him. Look at his peak years.
As for Mussina, he was a great pitcher for quite a few years. He didn’t win 20 games, but that’s a highly overrated statistic that is greatly dependent on the ability of the team to score and the pen to hold a lead. Further, he’s having, at the moment, an interesting “Indian Summer” season. If he ends up with 15 wins this year, which is not unreasonable, and he comes back with 10 wins next year, which is not unreasonable, he ends up with 275 wins. He’s got a decent HOF case. (Of course, since Blyleven isn’t in the HOF, its hard to expect the HOF voters to get this one right…)
Mussina
Moose has been a very good pitcher for a long time. However he was never dominant or the considered the best pitcher in his league. He was the ACE on some mediocre Oriole teams and the #2 or #3 on some good Yankee teams. I guess I just don’t believe longevity equates to HOF status.
Mussina is very similar in career stats to Jack Morris. Moose era 3.71 to Morris 3.90. Both were on 5 All Star teams. No Cy Youngs. I see the big difference in that Morris was a dominant pitcher in the AL for a number of years and his last two years skewered his career era.
The voters don’t deem Morris worthy, so I doubt they will see Mussina differently.
mussina and Morris
You may be right about the voters not seeing them differently. But they should.
Mussina has more wins than Morris and isn’t done yet.
Mussina has more K’s than Morris and isn’t done yet.
But the big difference is looking at ERA+ which adjusts for Era.
Morris had a career ERA+ of 105 with a peak of 127.
Mussina has a career ERA+ of 122 and he has 10 seasons with Peaks over Morris’s peak season. Included in this are seasons of 163 and 157.
Of couse, wins are really meaningless. In 1992 Morris won more than 20 games with an ERA+ of 102. He was barely better than league average. But he had an offensive machine behind him. \
by frustratedfan on Jun 9, 2008 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you implying that HOF voters do not use the methodology HawkRules is suggesting? It certainly appears that some HOF voters use some sort of penalty box and withold votes for players they dislike, thought too similar to someone else, etc.
You guys are forgetting the most obvious HOF candidate of all...
...Joba Chamberlain.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
A bad oversight
He most likely goes in the same year as Phillip Hughes.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 9, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
They already have
his plaque ready, just waiting to stencil in some numbers.
"The 12 second rule is how long it takes Carlos Lee to hear, turn around, run over, find and eat a hot dog dropped by a fan in the Crawford Boxes at Minute Maid park" - ballhawk
Well, he did get out of the first inning in his last start
and so I think he should retire now so he will be a first ballot, first unanimous HOF in five years….
by crazymountain on Jun 9, 2008 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Isn't he in already?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Does Maddux get in unanimously ?
No player ( Babe, Mays etc) every has but I think he has a chance.
There are certainly other players ( Griffey in particular) who SHOULD go in
unanimously but there are always a couple of jackasses who say since Babe
, DiMaggio etc didn’t then no one should. Maddux MAY have a shot because basically
the media adore him and see his dominance in the steroids era as something special.
I am betting there will be at least one idiot that does not vote for him but that he does
get the highest percentage ever ( which is Seaver with I think roughly 97.5)
Hopefully won’t have to worry about this till at least 2026
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
He should
but probably won’t. Like you said, there’s too many voters who won’t vote for him because Ruth and Mayes didn’t get 100%. They really need to change the selection and voting processes for the HOF. If Griffey didn’t get decimated with injuries, he would’ve been the greatest player ever so I think he would have been the first to get 100%.
"Please move away from this vector and get into another coordinate pronto. There's no access for you in this quadrant." Mike Donnelly
No one will ever get a unanimous vote.
DiMaggio, Mays, Bob Gibson, Musial, Banks among SO many others(and the greats from the early part of the 1900’s) never got it. It just won’t ever happen. Does the term sportswriter come to mind? Those idiots would not give a unanimous vote to someone who played every game for 25 years, batting 1.000 along the way.
by crazymountain on Jun 9, 2008 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Steroids shouldn't matter
It’s pretty common knowledge now that a major percentage of ball players were cheating. Nobody really knows when it started but I don’t think you make examples out of some players. That’s really not fair because you don’t know who was taking and who wasn’t. Sure you can speculate who was and who wasn’t but players like Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Clemens, how can anybody really look at their careers and not put them into the HOF?
Out of the players listed on this post, how many can you say with a 100% Guarantee that they never used PED’s? The sad thing is, you can’t.
"Please move away from this vector and get into another coordinate pronto. There's no access for you in this quadrant." Mike Donnelly
There is no proof, even no anecdotal evidence that Sosa used steroids
He should be in the Hall. Maddux, first ballot. Griffey, ARod, Manny, Vlad, Pedro, Piazza, Glavine and Chipper Jones. Bonds will go in, just because he was a HOF player before his home run lust. Glaring omissions in my opinion are Bert Blyleven (just about the same career numbers as Robin Roberts, more wins and strikeouts, Jim Rice, Santo and Andre Dawson. He played a third of his career with no knees. The writers shouldn’t be the voters, they are totally out of it, bonkers, crazy….pick one. Hank Aaron, before he started pulling the ball, was the best RH hitter I’ve ever seen. And Koufax….there are no words for him. He quit at 30, won 27 games his last year and he had more arthritis in his left elbow than I have in my whole body. I am surprised his arm was not amputated. Healthy? he would have surpassed Warren Spahn in consecutive 20 win seasons.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
Cubs By The Numbers
Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.
Click here to order your copy, available now!
Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Marlins agree to unretire No. 5 for Logan Morrison, who will honor his father’s favorite player
- Weatherman Derek Holland does Dallas TV
- Ask Alex: Will Julio Teheran or Matt Moore win rookie of the year?
- Ku Klux Klan, umpires and bowling: Why the minor leagues tossed out Jim Evans academy
- The Cardinals Hall of Fame can now be found at Bill Clinton’s library in Arkansas (Huh?)
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
