Don't boo Marmol - this is all on Lou's head.

by DGU on Jul 12, 2008 3:55 PM CDT

Lou broke Marmol. It's that simple. Enough of the He-Must-Be-Oveworked-To-Be-Effective theory. It was never likely. No. Marmol was overworked and now he is ineffective. It's all on Lou. If we can't get Marmol back on track, we are now less likely to win in the playoffs because of Lou's management.

This is what I've meant when I've warned about the Win Now ("now" defined as the game immediately in front of you and not the 2008 WS) mentality. Baseball is a marathon and Lou had Marmol sprint through the entire first half of the season.

This team is a historically good team whose odds of making the post-season are greater than 9 out of 10. It's way past time to start taking care of the players and making sure we have the best team on the field, not in July, but in October.

Poll

What's happened to Carlos Marmol?

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation, Bleed Cubbie Blue, or Al Yellon, editor-in-chief. FanPost opinions are, however, valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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I agree

This is about Lou’s mismanagement of the bullpen. This is quite surprising because I thought he did a decent job last year.

There was no reason for Marmol to even pitch today. Marshall or Lieber could have handled that just fine. Howry could have even gone 2 innings (if he wasn’t PH for).

Hopefully after the break Marmol will be rested but it won’t surprise me if he isn’t in some sort of pain.

Any word on Kerry and why he couldn’t close out?

by ak123 on Jul 12, 2008 4:00 PM CDT 0 recs

Heck..

..even Gaudin could have finished the freaking game.

by bikemonkey on Jul 12, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up 0 recs

I've been surprised, too.

Lou’s management decisions last year were superior to this year’s I believe. Last year, for example, he took the long view of things, even in the playoffs, saving Zambrano in that first game. I think he was surprised by the flak he caught for that, and I wonder if he’s been managing more for the immediate moment because of the flak he got for that.

Last Wednesday, John Perotto reported scouts were saying about Marmol:

He looks really tired to me, his arm is dragging, and his stuff isn’t as crisp. He’s a helluva young pitcher but [manager] Lou Piniella has been forced to ride him really hard this season and the wear and tear is showing.

The only problem is that Lou was not forced to ride him really hard. Lou just chose to do it.

I’m glad we got the win; is it asking to much to wish Harden had gotten the W?

by DGU on Jul 12, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up 0 recs

LOU was forced to use him.

Bob Howry was a lot worse early in the season that marmol is now…...all those early games we had no choice as that scout said…if lou had not continued to use him early and we lost all of you guys would have been complaining where is marmol? We need to win now to have less wins needed later in year? You guys are unbelievable, and are never happy? How many games have you guys won in the major leagues? How many of you guys played any baseball at a serious level? In high school? College? Minor Leagues? Independent or Cape Cod? You guys need to relax he will get a long break and we will go from there with howry being a notorious slow starter and lights out in second half marmol will not be used as much. You guys are un-real? If it were up to you guys you guys would run Lou out of town…no one is perfect. If marshall came in and gave up game you guys would be screaming for lou’s head not having marmol pitch the ninth. Marmol had not pitched in three days and marmol says he is more effective when being used, and with the break even bob acknowledged it was a good time to get him an inning of work before the break. As lou said the big mistake of that inning was marmol booting that tapper. He fields that its 7-3 two outs no one on. You cannot give any major league baseball team – inlcuding the giants extra outs. he will be okay. Lou has done a fantastic job, although I agree at some points lou could have some middle relief pitch deeper I have more faith in him than me or anyone of you idiots on here. You guys cannot be pleased it is baseball being played at the highest level and when you give major league team extra outs like marmol did things like this happen. Look at the brewers last night in there game vs the reds they gave a team with less talent many many outs and the got beat by it. Just relax it was a learning experience—for those of you who scream lou stunts young growth, he learned from it and in a win. he will get his rest and be the marmol of old in the second half with bobby howry throwing smoke as well in the 7th/8th/9th(in games like these). I think at least 25+ plus teams would take lou in a blink of an eye, except for the great baseball minds here on the north side. Relax guys lou is a proven winner with multiple world series rings? How many do you have? How long have you been associated with baseball at the highest level in the world, with the most talented baseball players in the world? Thats what I thought. SO PIPE DOWN AND SHUT THE FUCK UP!

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 4:31 PM CDT up 0 recs

Learn paragraphs

Very hard to read something you probably spent some time putting together…

by ak123 on Jul 12, 2008 4:38 PM CDT up 0 recs

do we need

the f-bombs???

Dear SBnation, We need our own server here at BCB seeing how its became very slow due to enormous amounts of traffic. P.S. Impeach Bud Selig!!!

by cubsluver22 on Jul 12, 2008 4:43 PM CDT up 0 recs

No, we do NOT.

This has been addressed.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 12, 2008 4:50 PM CDT up 0 recs

I thought you were alright with the occasional profanity?

"I think Hendry still has a few years to serve on his 'grand larceny' sentence before he can shop in Pittsburgh again" - ballhawk

by NittanyCub on Jul 12, 2008 5:50 PM CDT up 0 recs

Sure.

But not in that way. “STFU”, as the other poster said, is NOT acceptable.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 12, 2008 6:21 PM CDT up 0 recs

I apologize.

I guess I got caught up in the writing.

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 4:54 PM CDT up 0 recs

I can understand getting caught up in it.

I can also see how my post might frustrate someone. It was written in a spirit of frustration at what’s happened to Marmol. I wanted to defend him after he got booed.

Mikey, I appreciate what you can bring to the discussion. For me, part of the fun of enjoying this season is in taking apart some of the tactical decisions that are made, wondering how they are working or not working. If one of my posts frustrates you, just remember I’m a fan like you, smiling at this season day in and day out. I come here to throw out ideas and to hear other fans of the Cubs offer theirs in return. I change my mind all the time as I read well-put opinions and arguments on this board. That’s part of the fun for me.

Anyway, we won today and despite the frustration about Marmol, it’s a good day.

by DGU on Jul 12, 2008 5:13 PM CDT up 0 recs

Mikey, why are we back to this?

How many times do I have to say that I’d take Lou over most other managers in baseball? That doesn’t make him infallible. And questioning his decisions is not disloyal or disrespectful. If I’ve done it in a disrespectful manner, then I’ll apologize, but it’s only because I’m upset about Marmol getting booed when all he’s done is go out there and throw as hard as he can in 52 innings of work. Carlos Marmol should not be disrepected by Cub fans given all he’s done.

by DGU on Jul 12, 2008 4:45 PM CDT up 0 recs

I agree he is not infallible.

But you guys over react it is baseball even the best teams ever lose 60 games these other guys are pretty good too. I agree that he should use middle relief longer in games like these but he does know more than us. Additionally, some relief guys get rusty and with the all star break and a 7 run lead and dempster vs lincecum tomorrow I am sure he viewed today as a good day to get a lot of guys an inning of work before the break so as they are not too rusty.

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 4:56 PM CDT up 0 recs

It's hard to get rusty when you've appeared 49 times before the break

by cocknfire on Jul 12, 2008 5:10 PM CDT up 0 recs

Not referring to marmol on that one.

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 5:11 PM CDT up 0 recs

The Giants manager knows more than us, too.

But last night he made a mistake walking Lee to get to Ramirez. It seems, not just to me, but to scouts watching baseball that Marmol has been overused. That’s a serious concern.

by DGU on Jul 12, 2008 5:15 PM CDT up 0 recs

Yes he has pitched more than even lou would like.

But early in the season he was seriously ham stringed do you agree? howry was his typical early season self. Wuertz was not who he was last year. He used hart at times and he fell apart. He even used a lieber a few times and it backfired. We also won a lot of close games early in the year and when your in games late tied or with 1 or 2 run leads—set up guys log a lot of innings. As howry continues to pitch well I see his innings starting to rise especially being a veteran as we get deeper into the season whose done it before as opposed to a young kid.

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 5:21 PM CDT up 0 recs

I agree there was a ton of temptation

for Lou to overuse Marmol, but everytime the temptation came, he needed to say, sure Howry/Eyre/Lieber or whomever may be a little more likely to give up a run here, but that doesn’t mean they will and I have to make sure Marmol is still lights out in the playoffs.

by DGU on Jul 12, 2008 5:40 PM CDT up 0 recs

You cannot manage like that with a 2-5 game lead in May.

You have to make it to the playoffs.

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 5:41 PM CDT up 0 recs

There's a balance.

An unbalanced approach is willing to lose too many games. On the other side, you can also go too far – if it was not so, wouldn’t we start Z every three days?

by DGU on Jul 12, 2008 5:42 PM CDT up 0 recs

Which is a lot harder to do if your setup guy's arm falls off in June.

by cocknfire on Jul 12, 2008 5:43 PM CDT up 0 recs

can't read that, sorry

We never give up -- Aramis Ramirez

by Emelie on Jul 12, 2008 5:54 PM CDT up 0 recs

Well, I won't "shut the fuck up"

Marmol has NO fastball. Period. If that is NOT a sign of overuse, I don’t know what is.

Ted Lilly had a bad inning against the Reds. He was NOT given a chance to get out of it, even though it was early in the game. He is a veteran and should have been given a little more leeway. After all, we are not the 62 Dodgers here, a team that, if they scored one run, that one run was considered an outburst.

Lou is mismanaging what SHOULD be a great pitching staff. He seems to be afraid to let any of the middle relief men BE middle relievers.

Don’t you tell me to “shut the fuck up”.

The poem fails when it strays too far from the song, and the song fails when it strays too far from the dance ~ Ezra Pound

by crazymountain on Jul 12, 2008 6:16 PM CDT up 0 recs

While the first poster was wrong to say "STFU"...

.... you don’t have to stir the flames, either. Ignoring it would have been a better choice.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 12, 2008 6:21 PM CDT up 0 recs

The flames were already stirred, Al

The poem fails when it strays too far from the song, and the song fails when it strays too far from the dance ~ Ezra Pound

by crazymountain on Jul 12, 2008 6:23 PM CDT up 0 recs

Got to agree with crazymountain here Al,

there are too many guys who bait other guys into arguments. I think you and I can ignore it, but some guys can’t, or won’t. Hammer started baiting Mikey and it just escalated from there. They were both wrong, but I understand why Mikey went off on the guy.

Don't blow it boys!

by Mr W on Jul 12, 2008 6:35 PM CDT up 0 recs

+1

It’s always better to ignore the guys who seem to just be here to provoke-but it’s not always easy.

by bluekoolaide on Jul 12, 2008 6:48 PM CDT up 0 recs

My apologies to you, Al and everyone else who might have been offended

by my use of the “STFU”, as you want to call it. However, your guidelines say “if you wouldn’t say it to someone’s face, you probably do not want to type it”, paraphrased, but my memory isn’t what it used to be.

That being said, I can almost guarantee that lil’ Mikey wouldn’t DARE say that to my face or, for that matter, to most of the posters that type on this site. It is my feeling that he is an egocentric LITTLE man, the term “man” being used loosely in his case.

The poem fails when it strays too far from the song, and the song fails when it strays too far from the dance ~ Ezra Pound

by crazymountain on Jul 12, 2008 6:46 PM CDT up 0 recs

When's this coming out on paperback? haha, easy Mikey!

"It’s like they have 40,000 players on one team. Forty thousand people want to be in the dugout slapping fives. ‘Passionate’ is an understatement. Fans like that are special." -- Giants LHP Alex Hinshaw on Wrigley Field

by northsider on Jul 12, 2008 7:29 PM CDT up 0 recs

Agreed...

...and look at how much they backed off using him in June. Marmol’s IPs are down drastically in June compared to the prior months. So, het gets a lot of rest in June compared to the first 2 months and still is dragging.

Hmmmmm…...Next step is MRI…..

Lous has done a porr job with this pen. When you carry so many freakin’ pitchers then use them in a way that spreads the load. This way you lower the risk of wearing guys out AND you get a position player on the bench. The only saving part of this with Pinella is I don’t have to listen to the B.S. excuse making like I did from Baker, but they both seem to be poor (Baker’s a disaster) at handling pitchers.

by DudeVf11 on Jul 12, 2008 6:33 PM CDT up 0 recs

Wood couldn't

close out because he was deemed unavailable before the game due to his pitch count yesterday

by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Jul 12, 2008 4:08 PM CDT 0 recs

deemed unavailable because of his blister.

He will not pitch tomorrow and most likely not pitch during all-start game. Not due to his pitch count from yesterday. If it was pitch count and he was unavailable today due to that fact he would be available tomorrow and the all-star break. He is not cause of a blister or lou & woody deciding that its better for woody to rest and use the blister as an excuse to not pitch in all star game(hes been an all-star b4) knowing he has not had a full season in awhile and the rest will benefit him greatly for the second use.

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 4:34 PM CDT up 0 recs

no, due to his blister

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Jul 12, 2008 5:46 PM CDT up 0 recs

Today is certainly Lou's fault

Anyone could see Marmol didn’t have anything from the beginning and Lou decided to go all Billy Martin on him and see if Marmol was macho enough to pitch through it. Marshall and Lieber were available.

But we won. So that’s good.

But I think Hendry needs to DL Marmol so he can get some rest.

Borowy . . .Sutcliffe . . .Harden?

by Josh77 on Jul 12, 2008 4:12 PM CDT 2 recs

I agree

Hendry needs to step in.

by DGU on Jul 12, 2008 4:16 PM CDT up 0 recs

You guys know so much about baseball huh? (See Above)

How long have you guys been involved with the game of baseball at the highest level? even 1 year?

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 4:35 PM CDT up 0 recs

How much do you know about the English Langauge?

Fracking moron can’t even write a simple sentence or paragraph.

I’m not taking advice from someone less literate than a third grader. You’ve got the name of a third grader to boot.

Pretty sure you know less than I do.

Borowy . . .Sutcliffe . . .Harden?

by Josh77 on Jul 12, 2008 5:04 PM CDT up 0 recs

Really have you played college baseball?

When you were watching the College World Series finals this year I was in Omaha playing. You ever play at that level.

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 5:07 PM CDT up 0 recs

lol....big fricken deal

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Jul 12, 2008 5:47 PM CDT up 0 recs

sweet dude. Your real cool "Hammer"

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 5:55 PM CDT up 0 recs

thanks

“Mikey”

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Jul 12, 2008 5:55 PM CDT up 0 recs

playing ball

longer than some of the rest of us….honestly… means diddly….

Paul Sullivan is a big giant dweeb and he never played ball and probably knows much more than you. The I PLAYED BALL or AM PLAYING BALL arguement is idiotic.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip

by Hammer on Jul 12, 2008 5:56 PM CDT up 0 recs

Ronny Cedeno agrees

''Listen, losing Soriano is no box of chocolates.'' ~Lou Piniella

by JohnM on Jul 13, 2008 6:23 AM CDT up 0 recs

Funny thing.

I don’t see Mikey06’s name in any of the College World Series boxscores.

So let’s have some truth here, Mikey06. You a ballplayer? Or just a wannabe?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 12, 2008 6:25 PM CDT up 0 recs

Ball Player.

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 6:25 PM CDT up 0 recs

Mike's not my name.

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 6:25 PM CDT up 0 recs

If you would like my name and my e-mail address and proof.

Be Glad to put this too bed right now and get back to the Cubs. Check my IP Al

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 6:26 PM CDT up 0 recs

to=too

Nobody cares about your fantasy league team

by carmen_fanzone on Jul 12, 2008 6:51 PM CDT up 0 recs

Nothing to Say now Al.

Be glad to offer proof so people know i am not a phony even though they think i am a prick.

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 6:27 PM CDT up 0 recs

You may be playing college ball, punk

but you are right….you ARE a prick

The poem fails when it strays too far from the song, and the song fails when it strays too far from the dance ~ Ezra Pound

by crazymountain on Jul 12, 2008 6:28 PM CDT up 0 recs

And who the heck are you to judge me?

You do not know me.

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 6:29 PM CDT up 0 recs

I was just agreeing with you.

Your attitude sucks, “I am the only one who can speak to such matters”...is your attitude, and for that I judge you. Your teammates must love you, you are an egocentric little man, Mikey…..

The poem fails when it strays too far from the song, and the song fails when it strays too far from the dance ~ Ezra Pound

by crazymountain on Jul 12, 2008 6:31 PM CDT up 0 recs

I know it's not always easy...

but the best thing to do with people who just want to start trouble is to ignore them-when they realize they’re not getting a rise out of people, they’ll probably lose interest and go away.

by bluekoolaide on Jul 12, 2008 6:51 PM CDT up 0 recs

actually, I've found the best thing to do is laugh

laugh long and laugh hard. And don’t worry about whether you’re laughing at them or with them – that’s up to them, not you.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jul 12, 2008 10:28 PM CDT up 0 recs

Well, being a Cubs fan was fun while it lasted, but since I didn't play in college I guess the road ends here.

Bye everyone. It was a great 22 years.

by northsider on Jul 12, 2008 7:31 PM CDT up 0 recs

You didn't happen to play

at Northwestern did you?

I like Lou as a manager but he does misuse his pen. he did it in Seattle when he would trot Bobby Ayala, aka, The Arsonist, in all the time. He is doing it here. He would be better served letting Rothschild handle the pen.

Baseball is too much of a sport to be a business and too much of a business to be a sport.
William Wrigley Jr

by bubbamike the one and only on Jul 13, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up 0 recs

Lous Fault?

Did we win the game?

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 5:08 PM CDT up 0 recs

Mikey06 -

I have been hoping someone with baseball experience would show up. I never played baseball – I was a basketball and track man in H.S. and College – show I would love to hear your perspective on Lou’s use of the bullpen. I have heard that he got away with it in Cincinnati because of that teams outstanding pen, but it doesn’t work elsewhere. Do you agree with that assessment?

Don't blow it boys!

by Mr W on Jul 12, 2008 5:12 PM CDT up 0 recs

On the Cincinati pen in the early 90's.

I was two years old so from my lack of knowledge on the nasty boy’s—I believe that was the nickname of the three guys that closed at the back end of the pen.

As far as this year I feel at times lou has been ham stringed at times. I applaud him for sticking with wood. Early in the year with howry’s in effectiveness who else did he have? I think howry being a notorious second half player will help. Wuertz was very good last year he has not been this year. I just think like a lot of people today there are times in games where lou does not have guys pitch more than 1 inning when they are capable off. I think he tried to have hart do that today and in his second inning he struggled and hes a starter. A lot of bull pen guys struggle in more than one inning of work. I have not seen enough of gaudin but I would have liked to seem him pitch another inning. If hart got through the 8th I feel this would have been avoided. Even so If marmol fields that weak tapper theres two outs 7-3 bases cleared.

by Mikey06 on Jul 12, 2008 5:18 PM CDT up 0 recs

Thanks Mikey,

that helps me a little more. The Cincinnati bullpen of 1990 was Norm Charlton, Randy Meyers, and Rob Dibble – the “Nasty Boys.” Lou could practically bring anyone of those guys in any inning and it was lights out. That’s why they swept the previous WS champion A’s so easily. I was just wondering if Lou had a tendency to stubbornely think he can repeat that success with other pitchers who are not as talented as those three were.

Don't blow it boys!

by Mr W on Jul 12, 2008 5:28 PM CDT up 0 recs

Please don't go there...

Mikey. Congrats on playing ball…I’m sure many here would have enjoyed playing college ball (which was a blast for me) but don’t resort to Blue Mike’s “I played so I know more than you” argument. It won’t gain you any respect. Do you honestly believe that every baseball player has the knowledge to effectively manage a game? I’d hope not. Some baseball players are idiots who can just flat out play. A little advice: just make your argument and back it up with examples and statistics. Don’t play the Blue Mike card.

Free Ronny Cedeno

by Kansas25 on Jul 12, 2008 7:53 PM CDT up 4 recs