NY Times articles on Dome & Bradley
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 15, 2008 10:04 AM CDT
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Two interesting articles in New York Times
This one comparing Fukudome & Ichiro
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/15/sports/baseball/15japanese.html?ref=sports
And this one I found really interesting about how the media treats Milton
Bradley vs. Josh Hamilton. This one made me feel guilty re my attitute towards Bradley Sorry too tired to make tiny links.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/13/sports/baseball/13spotlight.html?scp=1&sq=milton+bradley+josh+hamilton&st=nyt
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Agreed
Not trying to take anything away from Josh, but if I have to hear the clowns at ESPN tell me how good of a story he is I might climb on my roof and swan dive off. Good for him, I’m glad he turned his life around, but what they are doing is overkill.
by slumpbuster17 on Jul 15, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
See I don't mind that
Hamilton’s a great story, there’s no 2 ways about that. It should be out there as an inspiration to others.
But Bradley’s turn his life around as well but can’t shake the bad apple label. Seems like it’s part double standard, part personality.
bradley
is a great player. love watching him play. should be one of the game’s best. but he is a self-destructive fool. can’t shake the bad apple label? that’s because 2 months ago he had to be physically restrained from attacking the television analyst who said a couple of bad things about him. last year he had to be physically restrained because an ump may or may not have said something bad about him. earlier in the year he had to be physically restrained because he threw a temper tantrum, and a chair, when he was released by the A’s for being a clubhouse cancer.
when the words “physically restrained” show up that often in the last year of your life, well, perhaps there’s a reason you “can’t shake the bad apple label.”
he’s clearly a smart guy and a great player. just needs to grow up.
See again the myth perpetuates itself
He wasn’t “physically restrained” from attacking Ryan Lefebvre – he was stopped before he got there by 2 old guys who probably wouldn’t have been able to physically restrain him.
We’ll never know why he went up there – he claims it was to talk to him and introduce himself. He’s not being given the benefit of the doubt there, and maybe he shouldn’t.
But everything else you’ve pointed out happened on the field. Are Lou’s outbursts considered “temper tantrums”? Why are Bradley’s? He has no off-field incidents; why is he branded “immature” and a “bad apple” instead of a fiery competitor like some who’ve had on-field incidents?
could be
see, that’s the thing about getting the benefit of the doubt…you only get it if you don’t have a past history of blowing up and throwing things…
and he does have off-field incidents. refusing the speeding ticket in cleveland and driving away from a cop that pulled him over. i also count the “throwing a chair” after being informed of his release as an off field incident.
i think if his incidents included things like arguing about close calls and even charging the mound after getting beaned would make him a “fiery competitor.” those are emotional reactions within the context of trying to win a game.
getting into stupid little confrontations and flying off the handle for perceived slights isn’t being a competitor. it’s being a baby.
again, i think bradley’s massively talented. far and away one of the most under-rated players in mlb. great numbers, switch hitter, all kinds of tools. but he needs to get his head on straight and get the chip off his shoulder. show me a year or two without and incident and i’ll say he’s changed.
Absolutely
Josh Hamilton is an unbelievable hitter. I was amazed with the sweet swing he showed last year in Cincinnati. Hamilton has one of the best swings I have seen in a long time. It’s beautiful to watch him hit.
Rich Harden Fever, Catch It !!!!!!!!!!
Alan Schwartz is a great baseball mind
and journalist. I have always thought it sour how the media have treated Milton Bradley – although his knee injury during that last tirade made me question him as well. I don’t mean to “insinuate” that we live in a racist society or that progress hasn’t been made on that front, but race is still a BIG issue in America and it can be seen in the media if we look close enough. It almost feels subconcious at times, as in this case w/bradley and hamilton (or w/bradley or bonds vs. Lou, Billy Martin, or George Brett) – but I applaud Alan Schwartz for pinpointing this dynamic and I hope it resonates with others. Great find, Doggie Stalker!
"I'll play any day. I don't care if I'm 0-for-30, playing baseball is my PASSION. I'll go out and play." - Geo Soto
I personally think that Bradley and Hamilton
Are both losers.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
LSA.
Let’s hear it for guys like Morneau, who did all this w/o drugs or public fits. Instead, he gets overlooked, and even called “Jason” last night. How ridiculous.
Second chances, yes
But it sucks that people who didn’t need them get 1/10th of the recognition
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
They dont need it though
This is the kind of thing that is going to keep Hamilton off of the drugs, he can continue to influence people with this story, Morneau does deserve more credit.. but from a pure baseball persepctive, he hit less hrs in that contest
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Jul 15, 2008 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
It's not the media's job
To keep him off drugs.
It’s not my job. It’s not society’s job.
Morneau deserves more credit. I’m so sick of celebrating people who don’t use drugs.
YOU’RE SUPPOSED TO NOT USE DRUGS!
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
Wait...why does Morneau deserve more credit?
He’s an MVP winner, and just won the derby. What more credit?
Dan
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
+1
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Jul 15, 2008 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
I see what your saying
but its hard to overcome a crack addiction, and it is a great story. As a journalism major, I have to say that this is a story I understand people hyping up… there is a reason they do these things, more people care about it then dont
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Jul 15, 2008 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Not everyone's life is perfect...
Some people battle demons that we can’t even imagine. It’s a good story for the fact he seems to have defeated his drug addiction, and because he was away for the game for so long and now he’s doing amazing things.
"Remember each day this year, where you were, what you were doing, who you were with, how you felt as the Cubs win their way through it. Because if this does turn out to be the promised land we have all been waiting for, you will want to remember, savor, cherish every moment..."
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 15, 2008 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
We are celebrating someone who used drugs and beat the problem
That is a good thing
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
Everyone and anyone who hates on what Hamilton has gone through is a "loser"
The story is unbelievable, this does not happen to many people. And the fact of the matter is that he influenced hundreds of other people to go and fix up their lives, he fought and fought and here he is dominating a professional sport after destroying his body like he did. But like BrewMaster said, it is ridiculous though that Morneau gets out shined. I mean yea, Hamilton put on a better show and thats what the HR derby is about, but Morneau deserves credit… he won, and he was sober all along his career path. But PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont take away anything from Hamiltons amazing story.
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Jul 15, 2008 11:10 AM CDT reply actions
Hundreds of people?
Proof please.
No one addicted to cocaine is going to give one rat’s butt about some guy that Berman and Morgan pump up.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
yes hundred of people
According to Hamilton, he gets emails everyday of people who were inspired by his story and went to clean them selves up as a result, if I come across that article I will post it in this thread
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Jul 15, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
According to a crackhead...
Fixed your post
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
thats ignorant....
If your father or brother or friend was a ex-crack had and fully recovered to allow them to live their dream… wouldnt you support it and stop calling them a crackhead
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Jul 15, 2008 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions
sorry "head" not had
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Jul 15, 2008 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions
This poster
probably wouldn’t.
Borowy . . .Sutcliffe . . .Harden?
by Josh Timmers on Jul 15, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn't lend them money or trust a damn thing they say
That’s for sure.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
wow man
this is another form of prejudice – you have no experience to speak from this “drug addicts are losers and you can’t trust them” mantra. My mom was addicted to drugs, in rehab, and now she runs a multinational organization and is the greatest person i know – so shut up
"I'll play any day. I don't care if I'm 0-for-30, playing baseball is my PASSION. I'll go out and play." - Geo Soto
No
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
hey
you’re kind of a jerk. Why?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 15, 2008 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Someone who's main argument is
His mother and “Shut up” is deserving of nothing more than a one-word answer.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
And what, praytell, does someone who can understand
that CubbyBlues was clearly implying that people can, in fact, overcome there addictions and become successful, both financially and in family matters deserve? Because that person is you and your inability to understand the simplest points and failure employ the simplest tools of argument is embarrassing to rational beings everywhere.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Your ignorance shocks me
I can’t believe that you can have this particular stance, his mother obviously is a great argument against whatever it is that your trying to accomplish by saying the disgraceful ignorant things that you have…
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Jul 15, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions
can my main argument be
your mother? because she apparently didn’t raise you right.
His argument isn’t his mother. It’s that drug addiction is a disease, not a crime—if Josh Hamilton had recovered from cancer, he would be getting the same kinds of adulation.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 15, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't ask why....
It’s just DaWay of DaBard.
Let my ashes blow in a beautiful snow from the prevailing 30 mile an hour southwest wind...
When my last remains go flying over the left field wall, I'll bid the bleacher bums adieu,
And I will come to my final resting place, out on Waveland Avenue. --Steve Goodman
I don't have a problem..
with applauding Hamilton, but it should stop after the break.
Just to play devil’s advocate though. My brother is a drug addict, been in and out of prison(now in for the third time) and I wouldn’t trust him with my house keys. It doesn’t mean I don’t still care. Just that I am giving him what he has earned. By the the same token, I do believe that Hamilton has earned our respect and we shoud in fact respect what he has done.
My point? There is always more than one way to look at things. Seeing it one way or the other doesn’t make anyone an idiot, prejudiced, or anything else. It just means that for whatever reason that person chooses that viewpoint. Hell, some people actually like the White Sox, it takes all kinds.
"You know my old saying: live it up, the meter's running. I've always said that if you don't have fun while you're here, then it's your fault. You only get to do this once." - Harry Caray
by MorePiePlease on Jul 15, 2008 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
After having endured your tripe for a few days here...
..my impression is that you enjoy typing without thinking or consideration for others.
A further impression is that you are an egotistical, know-it-all internet troll who enjoys baiting others on this board.
It’s been fun, but I think it’s time for me to cease fire in this battle of wits with an unarmed man.
By the way, the preferred grammar is “more stupid”, not “stupider”. Just thought you’d like to know.
Now who’s the “stupid” one?
Let my ashes blow in a beautiful snow from the prevailing 30 mile an hour southwest wind...
When my last remains go flying over the left field wall, I'll bid the bleacher bums adieu,
And I will come to my final resting place, out on Waveland Avenue. --Steve Goodman
You're real piece of work, you know that?
This guy went through hell. He turned his life around. He overcame drug addiction and alcoholism; you can’t even overcome your insipid, uninformed prejudices.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 15, 2008 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
thank you, you said that nicer then I wanted to
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Jul 15, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
His posts frustrate me on a regular basis...
...his ignorance knows no bounds.
Dan
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
by dtpollitt on Jul 15, 2008 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Uh-huh...Steve Howe supposedly got help too
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
Here's a fact that will blow your mind:
Human beings are fallible. They make mistakes. Steve Howe made a lot of them. They cost him his life. But at least he tried. You won’t even attempt to imagine what it must be like to emerge from a state where a chemical substance held your life in sway. You won’t even try. And your indifference is made all the more pitiable by your ignorance.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 15, 2008 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Steve Howe didn't try
He had enablers in the union and with every team that signed him.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
Sigh.
Enablers? They were trying to help him. God forbid people should extend a helping hand to one another.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 15, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Help?
The union made it all about winning with Howe. They couldn’t have cared less about him. It was about beating the owners.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
That's ridculous.
I’m no fan of Donald Fehr, but this is just laughably cynical. Perhaps there were some who saw it that way, but it’s ridiculous to think most of the people who got Howe back into baseball didn’t think that was the best place for him to be.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
But you go ahead and celebrate the crackheads
That take up our tax money and endanger our lives by committing crimes.
I choose to celebrate those who didn’t get involved in drugs.
It’s great he turned it around. I prefer to celebrate people who were facing the right way to begin with
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
Tax money?
That’s just ignorant. Plain ignorant.
I’m not celebrating their addiction; I’m saying what Hamilton was able to do is pretty special. And you know what makes it special? Stories like Steve Howe’s, that show just how improbable it is for someone to escape from a serious addiction to drugs and alcohol.
When you find me someone who was “facing the right way to begin with,” you let me know. I sure know my name won’t be on that list.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 15, 2008 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
on the one hand
there is a case to be made for the “you don’t get a cookie for not doing drugs” approach to interpersonal relations. and one can surely hold the position that you don’t want to necessarily lend money to a recovering addict.
on the other hand it’s not “celebrating the crackheads” to say josh hamilton did a good thing getting off drugs, and we wish him well.
on the third hand being unable to differentiate between a “crackhead” and a guy who seems to have kicked his habit and turned his life around suggests a certain level of stubborn pig-headedness.
you used to be an infant. is it ok for me to call you “infantile”?
Sure. You can call me what you like
But it doesn’t mean the repulsive overcoverage of a crackhead is appropriate.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
You know what's repulsive?
Your refusal to empathize with the sufferings of another human being.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
hahaha
Thanks for making the atmosphere a little better in here
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Jul 15, 2008 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Count me as a big Josh Hamilton fan
His story is inspiring. And what he can do with a baseball bat unbelievable. The sweetest swing the game has seen in a number of years.
Rich Harden Fever, Catch It !!!!!!!!!!
UM, HELLO?!
You wrote almost the same thing in a post in this SAME THREAD less than an hour earlier. Do you even pay attention to what you’re writing?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
he subscribes to the
“If I say it over and over again, it will eventually be thought of as true.”
Like “George Bush is stupid” or “Barak Obama is a muslim.” Neither of those are true, but the respective parties push the lies to better serve their interests.
BM is, essentially, a frustrated Karl Rove wannabe.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 15, 2008 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm just trying to find
balanced examples…
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 16, 2008 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions
They are both All-Stars
They are both getting a ton of attention.
This is just like the people whining about the Cubs All-stars being disrespected by batting 8th and 9th. There is room to laud both these guys and enjoy their accomplishments.
And if you want to complain about something, don’t take it out on Josh Hamilton, take it out on ESPN, who has to put some kind of over-hyped angle and spin on everything, not just this.
BTW, Southside, this isn’t meant as a rebuttal to your post, more a continuation of the general discussion….
by SuperContext on Jul 15, 2008 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
understood
and I agree with you completely
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Jul 15, 2008 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Though to be fair
I think ESPN is covering it because it’s a great story and most people are more interested in his story.
I know my wife, who is pretty pedestrian in her interest in baseball, was captivated by his performance last night, in part because it was incredible and in part because the redemption story is just a great one to hear.
As I said above, a Journalist would be stupid to not cover this story
People will read and listen to it, and be inspired… that is the point of Journalism, which is why I choose it as my focus in life, it is wait I am to do, because what you say and write will be heard, and hopefully inspirational… and this story is definately one of those situations, but I would be sure to praise Morneau as well, as I do agree with you to a certain extent DaBard
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Jul 15, 2008 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
hamilton's a good story
and ESPN’s never met a good story they couldn’t milk and milk until you just wanted to grab chris berman by the neck and scream “I’LL SHOW YOU OUTSIDE THE LINES!!”
Too true.
There’s nothing they can’t ruin.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 15, 2008 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
Yet I find myself watching it 24/7
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Jul 15, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Morneau
said himself that he was lucky to have been in the same contest with Hamilton. Justin Morneau has a genuine humility that will probably serve him well throughout his life.
I choose to enjoy last night’s moment for what it was. It was an example that it is never too late to turn your life around and succeed, if you truly want to.
Josh Hamilton is a very lucky young man, and he makes it quite clear that he is very well aware of it. He is also acutely aware that if he ever slips and uses anything, he will be back on the slide to hell.
The fact is, Josh Hamilton is an amazing story in human triumph over adversity. If anyone thinks that addiction is not adversity, I am happy for them that they have been protected from that particular affliction.
"I lof to hit de home ron!"
Hamilton contract status?
I noticed he making $400k this season. Do the Rangers have any rights to him next year? Is he still under the free agent six year minimum (I think he is)? Will he only make about 2 million next year?
*Synth intro to "Jump"*
According to
Cot’s, he’s on a one-year, $396, 830.00 contract. Nothing on there about next season.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 15, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
He won't
be eligible for arbitration until after next season, so whatever the Rangers give him (unless they want to sign him long-term and buy out some arb years) is what he’ll play for. Probably just over the minimum, which is what that contract is.
Borowy . . .Sutcliffe . . .Harden?
by Josh Timmers on Jul 15, 2008 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow.
The Rangers made a pretty nice deal, then.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 15, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
well,
edison volquez is pretty good for the reds, btw
"I'll play any day. I don't care if I'm 0-for-30, playing baseball is my PASSION. I'll go out and play." - Geo Soto
So he should be able
to go to the highest bidder, for any period of time, correct?
*Synth intro to "Jump"*
I would be shocked to see Texas let him go.
They gave up Edinson Volquez for him, after all. They’ll likely make a very strong push to re-sign him.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 15, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
No, he only had 1 year service time at the beginning of the season
So he will be under Rangers’ control for the next FOUR years; in fact next year he will be making approximately the same as this year- around 400k (unless they sign him to an extension to buy out the arbitration years which I believe will start in 2010, they apparently did this with Kinsler)
by Canseco's Roid Party on Jul 15, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
although actually now that i think about it, he may be arb-eligible next year
as a “Super Two”. Not sure about the rules for that though, have to check it out.
by Canseco's Roid Party on Jul 15, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Seems confusing
to those of us who pay little attention to contracts. It makes sense the Rangers would still have a hold on him due to the minimal MLB service. That said, he doesn’t seem likely to see the big bucks for 3-4 years, at least.
*Synth intro to "Jump"*
by SouthsideCub on Jul 15, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd love to have him
So long as we put a clause in there stating that if he fell of the wagon, he’s gone.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
I thought he was a loser
and a crackhead.
But you’d love to see him in a Cubs uni?
I am floored by your consistency.
by SuperContext on Jul 15, 2008 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I couldn't care less what he snorts
So long as he hits. He doesn’t hit, then he can hit the bricks.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
Contradiction, thy name is DaBard.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 15, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Where's the contradiction?
I have no problem with Rangers fans cheering Josh Hamilton when he hits a home run. He did something good for their team.
I have a major problem with his life being celebrated like it is. It’s repugnant, actually.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
But if he was on drugs
and hitting for your team, you’d cheer for him.
If you don’t see the contradiction, I’m not going explain to you.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
No, I'd cheer the results
Unlike you, I don’t see these guys as role models. They are highly paid mercenaries, fighting for a cause I happen to support.
When a crackhead or a wife-beater or a drunk driver or a steroid freak hits a home run for the Cubs, it helps my team win. When whatever is going on in his life outweighs his contributions to the team, he is worthless.
Free agency, unions and a labor stoppages have taught me to cheer for laundry, not people.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
I don't see them as role models.
I see them as people, flawed like myself. When they fall, it’s sad, not because I looked up to them, but because it’s sad to see any person fall victim to their vices.
You see them as purely fungible objects, not even to be regarded as persons. You objectify them and then use the failure of some, like Howe, to allow yourself the pretense of holding the moral high ground. You deny the players have any intrinsic human value and reduce them to the pleasure they can provide you, as a fan. Not only is your position poorly argued for and selfish, it’s morally bankrupt, as well.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 15, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's exactly right
This is entertainment and I’m spending my money or my time on it.
Perform for me and I’ll pay you for it. Purely business. No better nor worse than a movie actor, singer or author.
I enjoyed Robert Downey, Jr. in “Iron Man.” The fact that he came back from his coke habit was irrelevant to me. He gave a good performance.
If he stays clean and does another one, great. It should be a good movie. If not, then I’m sure the actor they get to replace him will be fine too.
Robert Downey Jr. the person means nothing to me, just as I mean nothing to him.
There was a bit of Downey-worship before the movie, if I recall. But it wasn’t nearly on this scale.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
You are a revolting person, indeed.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
So
If you are only cheering for laundry, you really should not have any comments positive or negative about anything other than his performance on the field. Your “crackhead” comments earlier make your subsequent comments invalid…you do seem to be following players lives (habits, flaws, etc) as opposed to only their performance.
Good point. I shouldn't care as much
But it’s the media that has set me off. It’s overkill.
Hamilton himself seems to just be going about his business. If he stays sober, great. If not, there is always someone in AAA ready to come in.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
Sure blame the media.
Blame anyone but yourself for your completely abhorrent and manifestly ignorant stance on this issue.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Does this mean we're not going to the prom?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
It means a lot more than that.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Well, you let me know
Just as soon as you get the thesaurus to tell you more names to call me.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
School's Out.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
You are a cartoon drawing of a redneck on a scrap of toilet paper.
You simply can’t consolidate this new “best of luck” stance with your earlier nuanced opinion of “once a crackhead, always a crackhead.”
There’s two possibilities here. Either you are a human being so devoid of empathy that you can’t see that a man escaping his own demons to become one of the best players in baseball is something worth celebrating, or you’re too emotionally immature to consolidate your overly polarized black and white moral outlook with the complexities of mankind in the modern world.
OR...
I celebrate the best players in baseball. I couldn’t care less if he has demons, is a demon or has unnatural relations with demons.
Were I a Texas Ranger fan, I’d be a huge Josh Hamilton apologist, just like I was for Sosa and Prior and even Dave Kingman, who is a loathsome human being.
However, I resent the celebration of someone’s personal failings at the expense of those whose personal failings do not involve breaking the law.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
For the last time,
And I’ll use small words this time, so you can grasp what we’re all trying to say:
No one here is celebrating his failings; we are celebrating his overcoming those failings and recovering his family, his life, and his career. We would be very foolish to cheer for Josh Hamilton, qua drug addict, but we would be equally foolish not to recognize that what he has been able to accomplish over the last two years is remarkable and very unique.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
DaBard decided earlier in the day
that you were wrong and is incapable of seeing any reasonable thought you offer. I think you are wasting a good effort.
At the expense of someone
Who didn’t need to recover it because he didn’t lose it.
How about celebrating someone like Derrek Lee, whose daughter is going through a horrific disease through no fault of her own, rather than someone whose troubles are self-inflicted?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
We do celebrate Derrek Lee.
Several posters on this site bought shirts to give to his Project 3000. Go to just about any Cubs blog and you’ll see a link to donate to project 3000.
You’re positing a false dichotomy. We can praise both. Praise for one player’s accomplishments need to come at the expense of praise for the others.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
*do not need to come...
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
You were right the first time
Media coverage is zero sum. The more Hamilton gets, the less Morneau gets.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
That's just not true.
“Media coverage is zero sum”
LMAO. That’s just false. Once again, you’re positing a false dilemma here.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Wrong how?
Fact: There are so many television hours in the day.
Fact: Newspapers and radio broadcasts only have so much space.
Therefore, the more one story gets, the less another gets.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
What a wonderfully simplistic view.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
very simply...
there is an overabundance of media now compared to previous eras.
simple math…
24 hours * 400 channels * 1% > 24 hours *50 channels * 1%
Exactly.
No one suffers because Josh Hamilton is a big story right now.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
I hate to break it to you
...since it’s obvious that, as you become an adult, the world will continue to be a bewildering and infuriating place, but when it comes to stories (be they sports stories, news stories, fictional stories) not everyone just cares about the destination – a lot of people care just as much about the journey.
Of course, I’m sure when Lance Armstrong was biking around France you were huffing and puffing and calling him “Nutless.”
When Jon Lester pitched his no hitter, you probably rolled your eyes and said “It’s not like it was a perfect game, cancer boy.”
And when Jim Abbott was pitching… well, you probably weren’t born yet, but when Jim Abbot was pitching you were rolling your eyes and calling him a stupid cripple.
You seem to think Morneau is somehow a victim here, but that’s not it at all. He’s simply the less interesting story.
But that doesn’t change the fact that he walks home with the trophy, goes down in the books as the champion, and can hold his head up high. I think you’re forgetting that this is the freaking Home Run Derby, and if it weren’t for Hamilton no one would really have cared at all.
by Wreckard on Jul 15, 2008 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Wrong
Armstrong, Lester and Abbott all had things happen to them. They were in no way to blame for their own misfortune.
Now, if you would have put Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry in there, I would have agreed. I did indeed say, “Meh, cokeheads.”
But I’m sure you were out there marching and celebrating for Gooden and Strawberry, right? Right? Or did something not feel white about that?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
There's nothing
to celebrate with Gooden and Strawberry; they could not overcome their addictions, which is exactly what makes Hamilton’s story so inspiring, because most people do not overcome these addictions. We celebrate Hamilton at least in part because most of us here watched Gooden and Strawberry derail brilliant careers with drug addictions. Hamilton appears to have avoided that pitfall, and for those of us that watched the tragic falls of Gooden and Strawberry, Hamilton strikes a wonderful counterbalance.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
In fact it's the exact opposite story of Gooden
One of the top talents in the world sees his career destroyed by drugs
vs
One of the top talents in the world nearly has his career destroyed by drugs, is able to overcome it, and goes on to have success
If you can’t see the difference between those stories, I think you need to go back to high school literature class and learn the difference between a tragedy and a happy ending.
Exactly.
I’ve tried to make this point twice now, but DaBard seems incapable of understanding even a smidgen of nuance.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Au contraire
Gooden and Strawberry both had comebacks with the Yankees.
Gooden won two rings with the Yankees. He pitched a no-hitter in 1996.
Strawberry won three rings with the Yankees.
So far, Hamilton has won a home-run derby. Those guys won rings.
Did you celebrate their comebacks then? Did you cheer? Did you marvel at the human spirit then?
If so, I stand corrected. If not, why not? They hadn’t relasped at that point. They were, far as they public knew, clean.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
Yes,I was happy for them.
and incredibly sad when they fell again.
I don’t pick and chose which recovering drug addict I’m happy for. Anytime anyone beats this type of addiction, it’s a wonderful story, because it very rarely happens, as Gooden and Strawberry can attest.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Fair enough
I will take you at face value.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
Your post is silly but I thought this was an awesome Freudian slip
Or did something not feel white about that?
LOL.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
heh-heh-heh...
there once was a guy named DeBard
For whom compassion was very hard
he went on and on
with no brains and no brawn
Until all of BCB was scarred!
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 15, 2008 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually,
re-reading that, I think you’re being accused of racism, Wreckard. Seems that DaBard is trying to insinuate that you are only defending Hamilton because he’s white; his evidence of this is that we don’t stick up for Gooden and Strawberry, though that’s a question beggingly tautologous claim.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Oh that wacky DeBarge
If so then that’s a hilarious sad conclusion to jump, with an added twist of irony, given the article that started this whole thread.
Sad, but true
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
tautologous?
I bow to your superior vocabulary. Your fu is stronger than mine.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 15, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Here's another thing you'll realize as you near adulthood:
People make mistakes.
I know! It’s terrible isn’t it? Even you, DeBarge, may someday make a mistake.
And sometimes those mistakes that adults make spiral wildly out of control and become a disease.
That Hamilton knocked over that first domino doesn’t change anything; his situation, in the end, was no different from Lester’s or Armstong’s – he overcame an often fatal disease to return to glory.
If anything his situation is more tragic and inspiring; it shows people that no matter how deep a hole you dig yourself into, with enough strength and resolve you can dig yourself back out.
And of course...
You felt the same way about Strawberry and Gooden when they came back, right?
The fact that they knocked over the first domino didn’t change anything, right?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
I was overjoyed
when both of those players came back and had good years after their struggles.
Of course, I was a New York fan then. But I don’t tend to think less of people for their mistakes.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 15, 2008 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions
You're trying to build a straw man out of the Straw Man.
I think you’ve forgotten what you’re even arguing at this point. Now you’re resorting to transparent attempts at establishing some kind of moral superiority.
Your question doesn’t deserve a real response but I’ll give you one anyway.
The Gooden / Strawberry thing? I was too young to really have an understanding or appreciation of it. The first time Gooden was suspended for coke I was 10 years old and Nancy Reagan was in Just Say No ads on TV.
I think now not only do I personally have a better understanding of what addiction means, since I’m an adult, but I also think that we have a culture have a better understanding of what drug addiction really means, in part because of the trials and tribulations of Gooden and Strawberry.
Well, most of us anyway.
by Wreckard on Jul 15, 2008 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well put.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
good old Nancy
she never really GOT it, did she…
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 15, 2008 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions
And how about when Gooden and Strawberry
came back in the 90s? You would have been in your early 20s.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
Way to dodge all my points again!
What’s the point of your line of questioning? I’m not sure why I’m asking – it’s pretty clear that you’re just trolling at this point.
But hey! Because I’m a better person than you – I think that much is clear at this point – I’ll do you one last favor and respond to your completely irrelevant question.
At that point I was not following baseball at all. From the early 90’s through the Cubs Wildcard team of ‘98 I stopped following baseball completely.
It wasn’t until I lived with a huge Cubs fan in ‘98 that I got back into baseball. That’s also what turned me into a Cubs fan.
So sorry – nothing for you to find here. Keep flailing wildly until you find something I guess. That seems to be all you can do at this point – you don’t seem to have an actual opinion on the matter, just a vague and undeserved sense of moral superiority.
Well you have
suggested that don’t care at all…I’m only saying you should stick to that…if it is how you really feel. Its your inconsistency on the issue that has given rise to comments. If you seriously only care about “laundry” I can respect that given you don’t get wrapped up in negative comments about players personal behavior.
No
Why would he be a “super-two”? He hasn’t played more than two seasons.
“Super-two” refers to players who have played two seasons and part of a third. Hamilton doesn’t qualify.
Borowy . . .Sutcliffe . . .Harden?
by Josh Timmers on Jul 15, 2008 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah i just saw this, i wasn't sure what it was based on
but I read the CBA and apparently it is those players with the 17% most service time out of those with between 2 and 3 years, i thought it was something like the best players out of those between 2 and 3 (which would include a 2.000) but now i see what this is. It’s kind of strange but I guess it just allows the “line” to shift from year to year, rather than saying anyone with more than 2.140 service is eligible.
by Canseco's Roid Party on Jul 15, 2008 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
This is why
Guys like Evan Longoria this year and Ryan Braun last year were kept in the minors until mid-May: To keep them from being a “Super-two” player in three years.
Their quality has nothing to do with it, as you now understand. It’s all about service time.
Borowy . . .Sutcliffe . . .Harden?
by Josh Timmers on Jul 15, 2008 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Isn't this also why Minnesota hasn't recalled Liriano yet?
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Don't think so
I don’t know what Liriano’s status is. But considering he has one year under his belt and has already sat out a good chunk of this season, you’d think they could call him up if they were trying to avoid Super-two.
But I have to say I don’t know for sure how the disabled list works in this situation, which is where Liriano spent all of last season and part of this one.
Borowy . . .Sutcliffe . . .Harden?
by Josh Timmers on Jul 15, 2008 7:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow is everyone cranky today
Between this thread ( which I THOUGHT might discuss the double standard re
Hamilton & Bradley) and all the Greene /Theriot stuff you would think the Cubs were
in last place. If it is this bad today with the All-Star game tonight I can’t imagine how badly it will degenerate by Wed and Thursday.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Cubbie withdrawal is real
Though I, for one, am looking forward to this particular all-star game much more than any in the recent past.
As for the articles, I haven’t had a chance to read yet, but I do sense there is a double standard between the two players. I’m guessing that part of it has to do with race, and part of it has to do with personality.
by SuperContext on Jul 15, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Ding ding ding ding
Of course personality plays a part, but race indeed plays a major role.
LeBatard went there on PTI the other day, “Show me the black Josh Hamilton.”
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
Tim Raines
There’s one. LeBatard needs to do his homework.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
I don't recall the media fawning over Raines like this
Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!
Well, for one, ESPN
Was still in it’s infancy when Raines came back from his stint in rehab for cocaine addiction in 1983, so there wasn’t the wall-to-wall capability there at the time, but it was a widely covered story, and it was something that followed Raines throughout his career.
Now is a different media age. More widespread coverage over every aspect of the games, etc. The internet has made information much more widely available, and stories that previously might have been quick flashes now have a bit more staying power. Trust me, if Hamilton slwos down, the media will drop this story like a hot rock.
For my part, I think Raines is one of the most underrated ballplayers ever.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
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