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Has the pitching age began?

      After watching the all-star game it seems the steroid era hitting age has slowly declined and the pitching age is approaching.  With that said is small ball baseball becoming a better offensive approach.  It seemed rather embarrising that a group of allstars were unable to move runners over, or sacrifice bunt. 

     Homeruns have dropped significantly over the past five years do to the end of the steroid age, and the increase in great young pitching.  To me the cubs are a better team this year because of the little things.  Moving runners over, sac flies, walks, and great pitching.  Not Homeruns!  The old time baseball players all say that players were better in the old days because they all could to the little things that win games and the players today do not.  Should things like bunting, and hit and running be more of a focus in the minor leagues? What does the bcb family think about the emergence of pitching and "smart" hitting as the key to the cubs and other teams success,now and in the future.  

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Begun...

sorry old habit.

Calm down.

by Kinky Reggae on Jul 16, 2008 3:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You also need...

...a question mark at the end of the second sentence. I would put a comma after “With that said” as well. Oh, and “embarassing” is spelled like this. And it should be “a group of allstars WAS unable to move runners over…” not “were.” I’m pretty sure “home runs” is generally expressed as two words, not one.

The boldfaced type was a nice touch, though.

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 16, 2008 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's totally misusing his conjunctive participles...

...my English teacher mother would be shocked.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Jul 16, 2008 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And with that...

a masterpiece was born!

Calm down.

by Kinky Reggae on Jul 16, 2008 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I feel that this years success

is due to the ability of this team to win w/out the long ball. In the days of Sosa and Alou we relied on those guys to slug home runs so that we could score now we can win w/out homeruns because guys are getting on base more and moving with sacrifices and playing smarter small ball.

by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Jul 16, 2008 3:21 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Meh.

First of all, why is it embarrassing that All-Stars can’t bunt perfectly? Most of the guys in yesterday’s game are the best players on their teams. What manager would ask his best player to bunt? You’d be taking the player on your team who is BEST ABLE to avoid making an out, and asking him to give up an out. Madness, I tell you!

And I’m amused by the notion that “old-time” baseball players somehow knew how to win games, but modern players don’t. I could break out the encyclopedias but I’m pretty confident that the cumulative winning percentage this year is .500, just like it was in nineteen-thirty-who-gives-a-crap.

And of the top ten home run hitting teams in baseball, NINE are .500 or better. Only 47% of teams in baseball are .500 or better right now. Looks like home runs do help you win, after all.

by HereComesASpecialBoy on Jul 16, 2008 3:22 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

well

the “best players in baseball” went 3 for 27 with runners in scoring position. I am not asking for a bunt, just a sac fly, something to get in the run. Not swinging for the fences with nobody out and the bases loaded.

by nks6911 on Jul 16, 2008 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Double-posting because seriously

The Cubs are eighth in MLB in homers, fourth in doubles, third in slugging. They’re not winning because of the “little things”. They’re winning because they mash the damn ball.

by HereComesASpecialBoy on Jul 16, 2008 3:26 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

but

The cubs don’t have a player on pace to hit 30 homers. They are a team full of great hitters, not good power hitters.

by nks6911 on Jul 16, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fundamentals Still Important

Earl Weaver called the 3-run homer the best play in baseball. Those 3-run homers are wonderful. However, you can’t always depend on the 3-run homer. I don’t know where the great bunters like Brett Butler went. I never could hit a ball more than 250 feet on the fly, but, at least, I could bunt the blame ball. I get frustrated watching major leaguers that can’t bunt. Small ball does matter in close games.

I don’t know if the pitching age has begun, but I don’t think we will have too many more 60-home run seasons in the future. Drawing walks is very important to a team scoring runs. I love seeing the Cubs getting those bases on balls. The homers are nice, but they don’t guarantee success. The Cubs led the NL in home runs in 1987. Dawson led the NL with 49 HR’s. The Cubs still finished last in the NL East that year.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jul 16, 2008 3:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

great bunters like bretty butler went away

because the sac bunt takes away runs from the team sacrificing. an out is statistically far more important than a single base.

Before Edmonds: 24-16, (.600); With Edmonds: 33-22 (.600)
Edmonds with Cubs: .269 / .369 / .552

by joeschmitt on Jul 16, 2008 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish more people understood this...

Last night Tim McCarver in the 13th inning or something said “expect Sizemore to be bunting here.” Yeah, ask the guy with an OPS of .900+ to lay one down for the team. It makes more sense to advance the runner with a good batting eye than by giving up an out, and in fact, a sacrifice does the exact opposite. It gives the opposition one less chance to give up a run. I know it sounds counterintuitive to classic baseball thinking, but it’s true.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Jul 16, 2008 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that depends on the situation

If it is the first couple of innings bunting can ruin a big rally, but if you only need 1 run in the late innings to win a bunt can be more effective.

by nks6911 on Jul 16, 2008 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

...And the Game Went to the 15th

The current players can mash the ball better than those of the 1980’s. They have serious problems trying to get 1 run across the plate in the late innings. We had a lot of late innings (6 extra innings) because nobody could score that 1 run until the 15th.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jul 16, 2008 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stretched out over millions of at bats...

... there is almost never a good time to sacrifice bunt. It’s a waste of an out. But I guess, as a fan, I still get mad like the rest of you when someone can’t lay one down properly.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Jul 16, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

correct that it depends on the situation

there are probably situations where sacrificing results in either (a) more runs expected; or (b) a higher likelihood of scoring 1 run. most likely with a pitcher batting.

but in general, with a runner on 1st base and less than 2 outs, it is more likely to score 1 run by swinging away than by sacrificing.

Before Edmonds: 24-16, (.600); With Edmonds: 33-22 (.600)
Edmonds with Cubs: .269 / .369 / .552

by joeschmitt on Jul 16, 2008 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Downsize the league...

just like the NBA should do.

Free Ronny Cedeno

by Kansas25 on Jul 16, 2008 3:46 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

We could do without the White Sox... let's start with them.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Jul 16, 2008 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cut the Florida Marlins...

...and give the Cubs Hanley Ramirez. NOT that I’m trying to start another Theriot thread…

Nanika Ga Okoru!

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 16, 2008 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But then I'd have to add an "A."

to my jersey.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 16, 2008 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just like.............

...........all professional sport should do.

Feel free to cut MLB back to 10 teams in each league.

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jul 16, 2008 10:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hell, cut it back to 8 in each league....

Have a World Series, not a “post-season”. When there was just a World Series, the best teams played each other, it had real meaning. Now, a team that gets hot at the right time gets the ring.

The competition was better when there were two leagues, playing the same rules, interleague play (in my opinion a waste of games meant to be played that MATTER) meant the EXHIBITION game in mid season and the World Series.

The talent these days is watered down….bring back the 16 inch mound and let the TRUE hitters have good years. The mound was lowered because Bob Gibson had a 1.12 (I think) ERA in 1968.

Cut the teams WAY back, expand the minor leagues to where they were (three “A” classes, B, C and D levels) and there would be a BETTER product for the fans. The average players that now get 3 to 10 million a year is just too much to handle. Make MLB the place for the BEST, not a place for the average.

The poem fails when it strays too far from the song, and the song fails when it strays too far from the dance ~ Ezra Pound

by crazymountain on Jul 17, 2008 12:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wholeheartedly.................

...............agree.

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jul 17, 2008 7:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The talent is NOT watered down.

In the era of the 8-team leagues, the talent pool was “white Americans”, with the occasional Cuban thrown in, until the last 10 or so years of that, when a handful of black Americans were admitted.

Now, not only is the population of the USA double what it was then, but players from all over the world are playing in the major leagues.

The talent level has never been higher. A team of players from 2008 would absolutely crush a team from 1948.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 17, 2008 8:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree...

...the generall talent pool has expanded greatly from 30-40 years ago.

The biggest difference is in how the players are taught the game at a young age compared to many years ago. Today, you have an incredible amount of physical talent on the baseball fields, but there are fewer pure baseball players.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 17, 2008 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amen

+1

Although it will never happen, could you imagine if professional sports cut back instead of expanding?

by Villeslgr on Jul 16, 2008 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I agree the talent is out there and is better than in 1948. No doubt. But I do support the idea of raising the mound. Things got out of whack on the pitching side in the late 60s. Recently, they’ve been way out of whack toward hitters. I think raising the mound a few inches – not back to 1968 levels – would be a good step, and may cut down on pitching injuries as well.

"Hey hey, kiss it goodbye! That one's in Milwaukee! Man oh man did he hit it. Isn't that something?" - Lou Boudreau, May 17, 1979

by danimal15 on Jul 17, 2008 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

One interesting stat

We’ve discussed homers being down, but here’s another interesting stat that proves this year, at least, is one in which pitching is improving.

So far this year in the AL, there have been 52 complete games pitched, compared with 64 for all of 2007 and 66 in 2006. The AL is on pace for nearly 90 CGs, the most since 2003, when there were 110.

This doesn’t translate to the NL, where there have been a piddling 23 CGs so far this year. Even so, the fact that more pitchers (at least in one league, where there’s the DH) are finishing more games that they start, implies that the hitting isn’t quite as dangerous as it has been.

"Hey hey, kiss it goodbye! That one's in Milwaukee! Man oh man did he hit it. Isn't that something?" - Lou Boudreau, May 17, 1979

by danimal15 on Jul 16, 2008 3:48 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't know

if players “back in the day” were necessarily better at fundamentals and the like, but I do know this: I, personally, have been hoping for the last couple years that we’ll see a return to the pitching-dominant, defensive-minded game of the 60s. It just seems like it’s time to return to a more nuanced game, a game where 4-3 or 2-0 is a typical score, rather than 8-6, and where your best hitter may be hitting .330, but he’ll have 27 HRs at year’s end instead of 55.

The steriod era’s numbers have belittled or, at the very least, obscured the stats of the past in that it’s become more difficult, especially for the younger fans, to compare modern players with those in the past via their yearly and career numbers.

"We are not equations with hats." -Dean Young

by Kegler on Jul 16, 2008 3:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think steroids have been made TOO important....

The average hitters (not good hitters average but average, as in middle of the road) might have muscled up for more homers, but the fact is that pitchers are not as good as they used to be, period! Most of today’s pitchers would have never cracked a big league staff in the 50’s or even the 60’s after expansion.

The poem fails when it strays too far from the song, and the song fails when it strays too far from the dance ~ Ezra Pound

by crazymountain on Jul 17, 2008 1:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

if only one

of those great players would have choked up a little with two strikes and tried too punch one into right the game would have been two hours shorter.

by nks6911 on Jul 16, 2008 4:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Or the king of scrap

Mike Fontenot

The NL had embarassingly little scrap on the bench.

"I tell you, Steve Blass, you pitch me inside, they never, never find that ball."
-Roberto Clemente

by cubbybear on Jul 16, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

instead

of Hart, and Ludwick, and Uggla. Maybe

by nks6911 on Jul 16, 2008 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're joking right?

You’d rather have Theriot batting with RISP in extra innings of the ASG than Uggla? Has to be a joke….

Steve Phillips on his computer use as Mets GM, "I played solitaire on my computer in my office."

by Tate491 on Jul 16, 2008 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is defn something we can agree on

with a runner on 2nd and less than 2 outs, hitters should be favoring the right side. even they make an out, they are more likely to advance the runner with the out.

Before Edmonds: 24-16, (.600); With Edmonds: 33-22 (.600)
Edmonds with Cubs: .269 / .369 / .552

by joeschmitt on Jul 16, 2008 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like Reed Johnson did Friday...

"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun

by Bump Bailey on Jul 16, 2008 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting post.

Except that the All Star game has always been dominated by pitching, even in the steroid age, because of the simple fact that good pitching always beats good hitting. This concept is nothing new.

I'm hunting down the next douchebag to respond to a post with +1.

by High_Tight_Fastball on Jul 16, 2008 4:29 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Future bleacher regular

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3onfgL8MzI

I'm hunting down the next douchebag to respond to a post with +1.

by High_Tight_Fastball on Jul 16, 2008 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Was the pitching that great. There were 27 runners in scoring position. I argue the hitting was much worse than the pitching was great.

by nks6911 on Jul 16, 2008 4:38 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

But I think we can agree

that Z, Demp, and Marmol were pretty great.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 16, 2008 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

they were fantastic. Dempster looked unhittable

by nks6911 on Jul 16, 2008 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He looked unhittable

cos he was unhittable. Even my Cub-hating Cardinal-loving coworker brought that point up this morning.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 16, 2008 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If there's no more steroids

I’m happy. I don’t want any little kid looking up to a drug-taking role model. And you can’t have a great hitter that isn’t suspected of taking them.

"Check the magic of a winning season and there are always reasons beyond the talent." Ned Colleti

by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 16, 2008 4:43 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think balance not dominance is entering into the game

There are so many trends that it is ridiculous to paint with such a broad stroke.

A) International talent pool. We have seen the Latin, then Caribbean influx and now South America is in full measure. Recently the Far East, namely Japan and Korea are adding their talent pool to MLB. In another generation I can see China, India and even some parts of Africa adding to the talent pool. Some are pitchers and some are position players.

B) Ball Parks and stadiums are smaller outside of Petco….which I suspect they will move in the fences.

C) Power hitters in defensive positions, 2B and SS are now power positions. CF and catcher are not that far behind.

D) DH it sucks but I think that is the difference to the AL and NL dominance. But it could change with more balance in the game where pitching is on an even keel.

E) Approach….swinging for the fences

F) Better scouting, better biometrics, better training

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Jul 16, 2008 5:45 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Even 'back in the day'

the saying was “Home run hitters drive Cadillacs”. It is still true, power hitters are better paid…that is why folks swing for the fences. That being said, the inflated salaries are a joke. Maybe the players union is a good thing, maybe it isn’t! Mickey Mantle took a $10,000 a year pay CUT after his triple crown year in 1956. Why? Because the Yanks didn’t think he could have that good a year again…...

The talent pool is being pulled from around the world, true. However, I still say that the players are as good as they were pre-expansion. Players train year round now and are better conditioned. That does not mean they are better baseball players. There are just more jobs available. Even when the talent levels were higher, they used to have to take jobs in the off-season. There has to be some compromise here as salaries dictate higher prices just to see a game AND the buying of special sports packages to see your team on television. The game used to be for the fans. However, a lot of fans will NEVER see a game at their park; a lot of fans can’t even watch on TV.

Parks are now being built to what the old neighborhood parks of yore were. Smaller dimensions than the cookies built in the late 60’s early 70’s. The big parks used to be Forbes Field in Pittsburg and Yankee Stadium.

I really have no solution. There is too much money involved in the game today to progress BACK to a talent laden MLB with deep farm systems for the up and coming.

The poem fails when it strays too far from the song, and the song fails when it strays too far from the dance ~ Ezra Pound

by crazymountain on Jul 17, 2008 1:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That should read

I still say that the players AREN’T as good as they were pre-expansion…..

The poem fails when it strays too far from the song, and the song fails when it strays too far from the dance ~ Ezra Pound

by crazymountain on Jul 17, 2008 1:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to agree...

...today’s players are better athletes, but yesterday’s players were better baseball players.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 17, 2008 7:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bring back

1968

"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Jul 16, 2008 7:56 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Nothing drastic is happening at all.

Without getting into anything controversial, I don’t see anything major changing.
Using the first three full months of the season as an example, the NL has hit 1325Hrs- last year 1239, 2003- 1368, 2002 1245, 1999- 1362. There were a couple of years in the last ten were the number was over 1500, but generally things are about the same. There has been a lot of well done analysis of this topic- if the thread is still going later, I’ll throw up some links.

"Baseball is like church- many attend, few understand." ~ Leo Durocher

by The Lip on Jul 16, 2008 8:23 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Link as promised.

Here is an interesting Hardball Times article that discusses home run rates. Changes in the ball could explain a lot.

"Baseball is like church- many attend, few understand." ~ Leo Durocher

by The Lip on Jul 16, 2008 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see a true...

...pitching age staring again until they throw away the radar guns.

As long as scouts and clubs are infatuated with radar readings, there will always be an abundance of pitchers in the league who throw, but can’t pitch.

Throwing 95 mph is great, but getting hitters out is all about changing speeds, movement and location and being able to throw all their pitches with the same arm motion to create deception. Today, too many guys can throw hard and may have a decent breaking ball, but they eventually get rocked because they either can’t locate or their arm motion eventually reveals what they are throwing.

There is no doubt in my mind, that a lot of potentially good pitchers are never given the time of day, simply because they don’t break 90.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 16, 2008 8:45 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Very good post and I agree

Would a Greg Maddux get drafted today?

"Hey hey, kiss it goodbye! That one's in Milwaukee! Man oh man did he hit it. Isn't that something?" - Lou Boudreau, May 17, 1979

by danimal15 on Jul 16, 2008 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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