OT Nolan Ryan Question

by cubsluver22 on Jul 16, 2008 10:16 PM CDT

I dont usually start diaries but i would love an answer to this. Here in Oklahoma City are sports radio station is 98.1 the animal. One of the main host on there is a ex-player named Jim Traber(not sure how its spelled). with that being said he brought up a topic of cheats in baseball while he was playing. he swears up and down everywhere tom candiotti went his teammates began to "cut" the ball and it would move "unhumanlike". he says the last couple of years after he was nolan ryans teammates nolan ryan began to do this too. traber blasts him for it and swears by this. several callers flame his ass in the worst way. can someone verify this for me and explain please.

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I have no clue...

...as to whether Ryan cut the ball, but he certainly didn’t have to to be effective.

Also, any pitcher who played in the last 30-40 years or so would have a very difficult time getting away with physically “cutting the ball” very long. Hitters in the 60’s and 70’s, would constantly ask the umpire to check the ball if it moved in strange ways (ever see a Gaylord Perry pitched game?). The art of cutting the ball was usually handled by the catcher. Once he caught the ball, he would quickly rub it against a shin guard which he rigged up with a sharp edge or try to at least abrase one side of the ball. Alot of pitchers would intentially throw a ball in the dirt, with the intention of abrasing one side of the ball to increase movement, which is why you have seen umpires (in the last 7-8 years) throwing in a new ball whenever this occurs.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 16, 2008 10:27 PM CDT 0 recs

Gaylord Perry...

Did he use Vaseline or something like that?

"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun

by Bump Bailey on Jul 16, 2008 10:33 PM CDT 0 recs

I believe Perry...

...used a special surgical lubricant. It worked well because it dried very quickly, and when they checked the ball, it didn’t appear abnormal.

I had a teamate in college who used a similar substance at times. He tore a small hole in his glove where he would place the ball and when he got his grip on the ball, he would dab his finger in the hole before he delivered the pitch.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 16, 2008 10:39 PM CDT up 0 recs

Without naming that teammate...

... did he ever pitch in the major leagues?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 17, 2008 7:53 AM CDT up 0 recs

No...

...he made it to AAA and hung em up in his late 20’s. The two major league pitchers I played with were Jeff Brantley and Bobby Thigpen, and to the best of my knowledge did not doctor the ball. Thiggy relied on his heat, and while Brantly didn’t throw very hard, he had good control and changed speeds very well.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 17, 2008 9:45 AM CDT up 0 recs

Did he have good results?

That’s pretty clever. I knew a guy in a 16” softball league who ruined a $100 bat by trying to put “superballs” in it….lol..

"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun

by Bump Bailey on Jul 16, 2008 11:11 PM CDT 0 recs

On the subject of cutting the baseball...

one of my favorite stories is about how Whitey Ford used to keet his the edge of his wedding ring sharpened so he could use it to cut baseballs.
I’ve also heard that Elston Howard, when he was catching for Ford, would sometimes pretend to lose his balance and, while supposedly using his hand to steady himself, would actually scrape up dirt and rub it on the ball before throwing it back.
As for Perry, I’ve actually heard (and I have no idea if this is true or not) that he didn’t actually load up baseballs nearly as much as he was thought to-he supposedly thought it was just as effective to mess with a hitter’s mind by making them THINK the baseball was always loaded (and for a guy that supposedly cheated as much as he did, I never remember him ever getting caught).

by bluekoolaide on Jul 16, 2008 11:40 PM CDT 0 recs

I think the best example was one of the Niekro brothers

(I don’t remember which one) threw an emery board to the ground when he was checked. Pitchers used to scuff the ball a LOT. Now they throw a ball out if it hits the dirt ONCE. A ball used to be used until it got hit into the stands. A ground out would get tossed around the horn and back to the pitcher with no one on base, or just back to the pitcher.

The poem fails when it strays too far from the song, and the song fails when it strays too far from the dance ~ Ezra Pound

by crazymountain on Jul 17, 2008 1:29 AM CDT 0 recs

That was Joe

who got caught with the Emory board.

Borowy . . .Sutcliffe . . .Harden?

by Josh77 on Jul 17, 2008 1:33 AM CDT up 0 recs

Love that clip

When the umpire is approaching Niekro on the mound and you see Niekro try to very casually flip the thing into the dirt behind him. Didn’t work.

"Hey hey, kiss it goodbye! That one's in Milwaukee! Man oh man did he hit it. Isn't that something?" - Lou Boudreau, May 17, 1979

by danimal15 on Jul 17, 2008 11:11 AM CDT up 0 recs

Another clip

I’d like to see is from back in the 70s when Graig Nettles hit a ball and his bat broke and four or five little bouncy rubber balls popped out.

"Hey hey, kiss it goodbye! That one's in Milwaukee! Man oh man did he hit it. Isn't that something?" - Lou Boudreau, May 17, 1979

by danimal15 on Jul 17, 2008 11:11 AM CDT up 0 recs

Cutting the ball

was epidemic in the late 80s. After Mike Scott in 1986, it seemed like everyone was accused of doing it.

I have no knowledge of Nolan Ryan doing this. And if it’s really this Jim Traber, he spent his entire career as an Oriole. Needless to say, Ryan never pitched for the Orioles, so Traber was never his teammate. And he was never Candiotti’s teammate either.

And as a personal note, could you (and everyone) try to write a little more clearly? Diaries like this are extremely hard to read. Most of the time I just skip it when something is this difficult to read.

Borowy . . .Sutcliffe . . .Harden?

by Josh77 on Jul 17, 2008 1:40 AM CDT 0 recs

Agreed about Traber...

... he’d have had no firsthand knowledge of Ryan or Candiotti except from facing them.

Further, Candiotti was a knuckleballer, so his pitches would have had strange movement on them from that.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 17, 2008 7:54 AM CDT up 0 recs

Rick Honeycutt............

.................was suspended for defacing the ball. He had one of the grommets on the bottom of his mitt sharpened and was cutting the ball. Pretty sure he was with the A’s when this happened.

Mike “Scuff” was always being accused, but there was never enough evidence for a conviction.

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jul 17, 2008 1:23 PM CDT up 0 recs

Interested in cheating?

Read this book
http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/

The author has a whole chapter dedicated to doctoring the ball and talks at length about Gaylord Perry’s methods and antics used to mess with the batter’s head. It is a great read. I haven’t spent much time at the blog so I can’t vouch for that.

Incedentally, this book changed my mind about Pete Rose and forgiveness which is being discussed in a different fanpost here.

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on Jul 17, 2008 8:14 AM CDT 0 recs

Agreed

Regarding Rose, this argument made in Zumsteg’s book has been made before, but I thought he made it very clear and concise, which I hope resonates with a wide array of readers.

by StevenABQ on Jul 17, 2008 9:39 AM CDT up 0 recs

Perry

Not sure how much was real and how much was an act. (I’ll read that chaper, thanks). He was always rubbing his hands all over his face and head. I used to think he had grease on his hair and was putting that on the ball, but he may have just been trying to play games with batters’ heads. No way you win 300 games just by cheating – there’s no doubt he would have been successful either way (he’s also the last pitcher to post 300 complete games in a career).

"Hey hey, kiss it goodbye! That one's in Milwaukee! Man oh man did he hit it. Isn't that something?" - Lou Boudreau, May 17, 1979

by danimal15 on Jul 17, 2008 11:13 AM CDT up 0 recs

He also

has a blog, with a very interesting and related entry today, regarding a mysterious substance on Jake Peavy’s pitching hand during his last start. The substance was noticed by non other than Rick Honeycutt, the Dodgers’ pitching coach. Small world.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jul 17, 2008 4:39 PM CDT up 0 recs