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OT: The Dark Knight Discussion SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

Here's a good place to discuss TDK, since it's about the only thing on my mind this weekend.  Saw it twice, got tickets to see it @ IMAX next weekend.

 

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS LEAVE NOW IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a first question I have to kick off discussion...

 

..Is Two-Face/Harvey Dent dead or alive?  Upon first viewing, I thought the mini-press conference held by Commissioner Gordon was a ploy until TF/HD was "cured" or could get back to being The White Knight for Gotham...just as Batman said, he's the hero.  But, upon my second viewing today, I think he's dead, and we start the third re-booted Batman films with a whole new host of villians. 

 

Thoughts?

 

Dan

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation, Bleed Cubbie Blue, or Al Yellon, editor-in-chief. FanPost opinions are, however, valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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I'm pretty sure he's dead

They wouldn’t have gone through the big press conference at the end were he still alive – he’s a fallen hero now so he could no longer be Gotham’s White Knight.

I actually thought he was still alive when Gordon and Batman were discussing the fallout over him, and that one of them (probably Batman) would kill Dent in order to keep his legacy intact. That might have been too dark even for this movie though.

Some people have 3 layers, like pie.

by berselius on Jul 20, 2008 7:00 PM CDT   0 recs

I don't know...

...First off, the press conference was a brief (10 seconds or less) glance at the commish speaking, with a big picture of HD in the background. And Batman fell the same distance HD did, granted, with some armour on.

Wouldn’t it make sense for Gotham’s White Knight to need to get fixed up PRIOR to being released to the public? He’s got burns all over – no way he gets released to the general public looking like that. I’m gonna wager that he’s still alive, recuperating somewhere, until he’s all better. Then comes back with a vengeance against Batman for “killing” Rachael.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 7:11 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The whole point of Batman taking the fall for Dent

Was so that Dent’s image would not be tarnished. If Dent was still alive to re-tarnish it, what would be the point? Dent is done being the good guy

Some people have 3 layers, like pie.

by berselius on Jul 20, 2008 7:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No.............

I think the biggest evidence for HD being ALIVE is that Batman took the fall for him. Why the hell would it matter if HD’s reputation was scarred if he was dead?!

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 7:18 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think Batman and Gordon acted fast...

...decided to let Batman take the fall for TF/HD, put TF/HD into hiding, held a press conference about his death, and are waiting to see how TF/HD turns out – bad or good. And then they will decide.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 7:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He did hold Gordon's entire family hostage

Kind of hard to trust someone after that…

Some people have 3 layers, like pie.

by berselius on Jul 20, 2008 7:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't mean trust him...

...I just mean if he’s good enough to release to the public or too bad of a guy.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 7:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I thought that HD was

The Hero that Gotham deserved?

by jajonez77 on Jul 20, 2008 7:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Even if Dent was still alive, and had his rep cleared

What will he do, hide in the shadows? He’s a broken man, and eventually he would ruin that rep anyway.

Some people have 3 layers, like pie.

by berselius on Jul 20, 2008 7:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

In the comics...

He had his face restored and consequently his “goodness” but it was always a constant struggle between his two sides.

by Schizo on Jul 20, 2008 7:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It's certainly possible

and the redemption angle is a great angle to play….but I think we’re done with Dent.

Some people have 3 layers, like pie.

by berselius on Jul 20, 2008 7:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think Two Face is dead. I have heard some people speculate that the Riddler would be the next bad guy.

I wouldn’t be against Poison Ivy/Mr. Freeze combining forces again. (a joke)

Also to play the bad guy here, does this movie get as much hype if Ledger is still alive? I think it still breaks records financially, but I think his death helped add to the hype and thus the #1 IMDB movie of all time ranking.

Missouri Tigers 2008 Cotton Bowl Champs

by nji232 on Jul 20, 2008 7:04 PM CDT   0 recs

Good points, but remember...

...Heath was still alive when we first glimpsed The Joker in trailers last fall, and didn’t that pique your interest?! I thought he looked ridiculously scary. Batman Begins was brilliant, and Nolan’s been on a roll, and Bale is probably the hottest thing besides Downey, Jr., in Hollywood right now. Being #1 means nothing right now – look at how many votes it has – this always happens on IMDB with a new release, fanboys come out initially.

I don’t remember the last time a villian (or for that matter, a COMIC BOOK villian…) scared the living s**t outta me – and Heath did that, dead or alive.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 7:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, I'm not going to go #1 of all time by any stretch

I still haven’t decided whether it was better than Batman Begins. I actually found Ledger’s performance, while great, to be disappointing compared to how much the hype had built it up. He (and pretty much everyone else) didn’t get enough screen time.

Some people have 3 layers, like pie.

by berselius on Jul 20, 2008 7:09 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It's better than BB...

...simply because the villain is far and away better than Scarecrow. And Maggie > Katie. And Eckhart.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 7:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

This one did have better characters/actors

But I think the first one had a better plot. I felt this one tried to do a little too much. I actually liked the Dent storyline better than the Joker stuff, and I felt that parts of it were a little too rushed. There wasn’t really a lot of room for growth/character development in the Joker, he was just incredible evil.

Some people have 3 layers, like pie.

by berselius on Jul 20, 2008 7:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think that was the point...Joker said he only exists for anchary and chaos

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 7:18 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Exactly...which is why they needed the Dent storyline

If it was just Batman vs EVIL! It wouldn’t be as great of a movie as it is – there isn’t as much room for plot depth and you’re left with ‘Just another superhero movie’, as another poster said below

Some people have 3 layers, like pie.

by berselius on Jul 20, 2008 7:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Catwoman, Riddler, Poison Ivy, Bane

Could use Harley Quinn in #3 to set up a new Joker in #4. NO Mr. Freeze, Penguin…long list there.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. ~Voltaire

by Jettero2112 on Jul 20, 2008 8:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ivy and Freeze might be hard

Any new Villain has to retain the realistic feel of the past 2 films. Means no magical ability to freeze things or control plants.

by Schizo on Jul 20, 2008 8:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Which is too bad.

Because when done right, Mr. Freeze is one of the more compelling villains.

It’s just a shame that Joel Schumaker screwed it up so badly.

Before each game, please remember to feed the bats.

by Cool Hand on Jul 21, 2008 7:05 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

#1 of all time?

Wow, that is a stretch. It was entertaining, had a good story and decent acting. At the end of the day it was a super hero movie and did little to break the mold as far as they go.

by jajonez77 on Jul 20, 2008 7:12 PM CDT   0 recs

I think that's where you're wrong...

...And this was Joel Schumaker’s fault. He was limited in his production of the Batman because he thought in the box. Didn’t see that Batman can actually have a personality, faults, be a detective, and lose favour in Gotham.

Nolan directed this film and showed the duality of being a hero – the white AND dark knight, per se. Batman’s down and out for the count right now – and there’s nothing left for him to fight for. His love is gone – which is mostly his fault – and his :unstoppable force met an immovable object: (love that line). I think this movie, along with BB, broke the superhero mold more than any others. Iron Man sure as hell didn’t.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 7:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If you go into it thinking a super hero movie

That’s all you’ll get out of it. I pity you.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 20, 2008 8:01 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Two-Face is definitely dead.

My read is that they were probably planning to bring the Joker back (which is why Batman saved him at the end) in either the next film or the one after that. Now that Heath Ledger is gone though, that’s unlikely to happen (what actor could possibly take up where he left off-or would even want to try?). the rumor is that the Riddler will be the main villain in #3. Christopher Nolan and company have re-booted this franchise in an extraordinary way-I have every confidence that they’ll be able to keep raising teh bar no matter who the next villain is.

by bluekoolaide on Jul 20, 2008 7:13 PM CDT   0 recs

I've always heard Nolan talking...

...as if the birth of Two-Face was just coming in this movie, and will be completely developed in the next film.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 7:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Personally I would feel bringing Two-Face back is a cop-out at this point because Ledger died.

Go with a brand new villain.

Missouri Tigers 2008 Cotton Bowl Champs

by nji232 on Jul 20, 2008 7:19 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The Joker said...

...you gotta always have an ace in the hole. And TF/HD is his ace. I think he’ll be back.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 7:19 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Keeping my fingers crossed

For the Thoroughbred of Sin

Some people have 3 layers, like pie.

by berselius on Jul 20, 2008 7:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

How about the part with with the two boats and two bombs.

Had to be one of my favorite scenes, especially when the big criminal threw the detonator out the window.

Missouri Tigers 2008 Cotton Bowl Champs

by nji232 on Jul 20, 2008 7:31 PM CDT   0 recs

Was great to see the Tiny Lister Jr Cameo

Deebo!

Some people have 3 layers, like pie.

by berselius on Jul 20, 2008 7:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Did anyone catch the Patrick Leahy cameo?

I did a double take when I saw him

Some people have 3 layers, like pie.

by berselius on Jul 20, 2008 7:38 PM CDT   0 recs

Favorite lines from the movie?

My favorite wasn’t even a line:

Joker asks a guy in the interrogation room how many of his friends he killed, the guy says “Six” and the Joker mouths “Six?!”. Classic Heath.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 7:39 PM CDT   0 recs

I loved that scene...

Heath Ledger was just amazing. I’ve seen the movie twice, once in Imax, and I will probably see it again.

I for one think HD is dead. However, Joker was just left there and the SWAT team came in. Perhaps the SWAT team was Joker’s thugs?

I loved the scene where Joker crashed the party. It was so funny, “Do you know where Harvey Dent is, I need to talk to him about something.” Classic!! RIP Heath. Well done sir, well done.

by cubfanwill on Jul 20, 2008 7:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

My favorite line is the first one about the magic trick.

But my favorite scene is where he leans he head out the window while driving the stolen police car. What a beautiful, scary image. He looked like a vicious Doberman, enjoying one of the few pleasures a dog has.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 20, 2008 8:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Magic trick was great...

...wish the head-out-the-window scene wasn’t in the trailers; I would have appreciated it more.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 8:01 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Forgot...

...I loved the ENTIRE hospital scene, but one of the best quotes was “I’m like a dog chasing cars…I wouldn’t know what to do with one if I caught it!!!”

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 8:04 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I got a kick out of him

Using the Purel dispenser after leaving the room. That cracked me up.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 20, 2008 8:06 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Good call, that was great

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 8:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Two cents

We are talking about the comics here. It’s entirely possible Two-Face could still be alive. In the comics, Harvey Dent had his face repaired a couple of times (Bruce Wayne paid for it) and still was evil. And he ripped his own face up.

We also have to prepare for the possibility of another actor playing the Joker. We are talking about the main villian for Batman. I nominate Daniel Day-Lewis. There have been five Batman’s (Counting Adam West) and six James Bonds. Someone else CAN play the Joker, as jarring as it may seem.

But I’m ready for the Riddler. They could turn him into a Zodiac/Son of Sam type character, who sends clues to Batman, who must hunt him while the cops hunt Batman.

I nominate Guy Pearce.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 20, 2008 7:59 PM CDT   0 recs

Meh.

I think the Joker ends with Heath, or at least it should, IMO.

And as for the Riddler – Jim Carrey left such a bad taste in my mouth, I strongly dislike the character, but Pearce could redeem it for me. I still REALLY like Eckhart as HD/TF.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 8:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Joker will not end, Dan.

I think they take a movie off. (I’m assuming they will do four or five of these)

But by the fourth one, he’ll be back.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 20, 2008 8:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess to me it's just too early to reprise a role that was so grand and epic in Heath's performance

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 8:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Seems like a trilogy to me...

...the way Nolan’s setting it up. Clearly he has a vision for however movies – 3, 4, 5. Third one seems set up to be a redemption story of sorts for Wayne. But I’d take more of this guy any day.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 8:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Guy Pearce would be great,

but I’d love to see David Tennant as the Riddler, too.

"Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
-- William Faulkner

by jennypage on Jul 20, 2008 8:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

David Tennant

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Schizo on Jul 20, 2008 8:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He played a villian

in a Harry Potter movie. Wasn’t bad. I’d still prefer a more mature actor.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 20, 2008 8:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He's currently preparing to play Hamlet

alongside Patrick Stewart for the RSC later this year. It doesn’t get more mature than that, really! He does “crazy” rather well, apparently.

"Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
-- William Faulkner

by jennypage on Jul 20, 2008 8:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Doctor Who...

...is my all-time favorite television show. I’ve loved it since I was a kid back in the early 80’s. Tennant is booked for the next year, but if he had the opportunity to film a Batman movie in Hollywood, I’m sure he’d jump for it. I love Tennant and believe he is a fantastic actor, though I really doubt he’d appear as the Riddler in a future Batman movie. If he did have the chance, he’d pull it off.

by TheHawkRules on Jul 20, 2008 10:06 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Johnny Depp hasa definite talent (and affinity) for crazy/off-beat characters

and so I could see him as possibly being able to carry on the Joker but, as I mentioned earlier, I have a feeling most “name” actors will shy away from taking on a role that Ledger so completely dominated.

The Riddler could really work as long as they re-imagined him as a less campy/more realisric psycho character in the style of the current films.

by bluekoolaide on Jul 20, 2008 8:24 PM CDT   0 recs

As I said...

He could be a serial killer with a fetish for leaving clues.

I’m not in favor of the Penguin, though. And Poison Ivy would have to be very carefully done.

No Mr. Freeze. Not ever.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 20, 2008 8:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I thought the film was amazing. Favorite since LOTR 3 and best theater experience since T2 with the audience.
Just wanted to say if you get a chance see this at the imax! The full screen “imax film” shots were breathtaking and at moments I felt like I’d fall forward when showing the depths of the city. It was nice recognizing so much of the chicago scenery in the film as well.

I think they left it open for Dent to survive depending on the direction they want to go as well as the Joker being involved or not. The new batsuit being mentioned as being able to handle cats might tie in catwomen…

by mantras on Jul 20, 2008 8:27 PM CDT   0 recs

Aren't one of Gordon's kids...

...supposed to be a character?

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 20, 2008 8:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

in some story

his daughter becomes batgirl…

by mantras on Jul 20, 2008 8:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Now, here's the real question

Do you want Robin?

I say no. I just don’t see how he’d fit in to the style Nolan is going for.

Plus I hate him.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 20, 2008 8:30 PM CDT   0 recs

No way.

Christian Bale has said he wouldn’t participate in a third movie if Robin was in the storyline.

"Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
-- William Faulkner

by jennypage on Jul 20, 2008 9:04 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I hope Two-Face

is dead. The special effects of his face were terrible, way too cartoonish for the aesthetic of the rest of the movie, especially compared to the more natural and raw Joker.

The problem with Batman is the lack of convincing villains beside The Joker.

by Dick Tidrow on Jul 20, 2008 9:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The joker...

isn’t even that convincing either. They did a good job, and pulled it off.

"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark

by cubs199235 on Jul 20, 2008 10:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I thought that was the biggest flaw of the movie.

The CGI of his face was second rate, very cartoonish. I am willing to bet it was not done in a gory fasion to keep the movie at a PG-13 rating.

by Imtrejo on Jul 23, 2008 10:29 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Now see,

at the beginning of the movie, i though two-face was gonna be robin. I guess I was wrong. lol. that is definatly at least top-5 movies ive ever seen…

"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying" - Michael Jordan, the one and only...

by LPLancer23 on Jul 21, 2008 6:11 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

"I'm not crazy...

I’m just ahead of the curve!”

My favorite line haha.

by TyCubsfan on Jul 20, 2008 11:42 PM CDT   0 recs

Just got home from the theater

I don’t think Dent is dead, I think they were just “patching him up”. I think he’ll be part of the next movie. I liked the idea of two villains in the movie, more realistic. I would hate to see the Joker character die off, he’s part of batman more so than any other villain. I think Ledger was great, but not the end of the line for the joker. At least I hope not. How about Crispin Glover for the riddler?

Favorite line: This town deserves a better class of criminal… and I’m gonna give it to them. -The Joker

This film was non-stop action, they kind of throw a lot at you right away. I loved recognizing buildings and streets, they showed of the Chi very well. I’m gonna have to see this in IMAX that opening scene must be amazing.

by TheRamZamDLEE on Jul 21, 2008 1:45 AM CDT   0 recs

Saw it today.

GREAT flick. Everyone did an incredible job in their role…I thought Eckhart was just as good a Dent as Ledger was a Joker.

I hope the Riddler is in the next movie…after all, they may very well have set him up in this one. Remember, the guy who was going to blackmail Batman? He showed curiosity, intelligence, and a certain lack of moral compunction.

And of course, his first appearance on screen, he was called “Mister Reese.”

Get it?

(Hey, it’s a much less dumb name than “Edward Nygma.” Hell, they’ve even changed that in the comics.)

Before each game, please remember to feed the bats.

by Cool Hand on Jul 21, 2008 2:56 AM CDT   0 recs

Recast with a name actor

And I think you’ve got it. Excellent catch!

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 21, 2008 6:34 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

To be fair...

It was one of my friends who caught the name; I’d forgotten what it was by the time the blackmail thing came around.

But yeah, you would have to recast. Nothing against that guy, but, well, who is that guy?

Before each game, please remember to feed the bats.

by Cool Hand on Jul 21, 2008 6:53 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Did anyone else laugh...

at the very end, when Gordon was destroying the Bat-Signal, and his first swing with the ax just bounced off of it without any damage. That seemed kinda awkward for the whole Batman-is-a-criminal tone that scene was trying to convey.

by MillsChC on Jul 21, 2008 3:58 AM CDT   0 recs

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