Bob Howry Must Go: Cubs 2, Marlins 3
by Al Yellon on Jul 25, 2008 6:05 PM CDT
in Chicago Cubs Recaps
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PrintThere, I said it.
I'm sorry, but no matter what his veteran status, how many times management can say, "Well, he'll come around", how many dollars are left on his contract -- how many times can we sit here and watch Howry, who at one time was a premier setup man, blow game after game (or take blowout game and force a closer into the 9th inning, as he did at Arizona on Wednesday)?
There are only two choices: find out if he's really hurt (or make up an injury) and put him on the DL, or DFA him, which would mean the possibility of making a trade (bad as Howry has been, there may be a team or two who would take him), or just releasing him.
Not that today's depressing 3-2 Cub loss to the Marlins is all on Howry's head, either, but he's the most convenient target, because he's the one who gave up the winning run, Jeremy Hermida's pinch-hit HR leading off the top of the 9th. No, there's plenty of blame to go around:
Case #1: Jeff Samardzija. It's been said many times on this site and elsewhere that no one can quite figure him out. And after seeing him throw 31 pitches -- 23 for strikes -- in two innings, I still can't figure him out. He's got a funky delivery that can send a pitch to the plate at up to 99 MPH. Or, more correctly, can send a pitch to within the vicinity of the plate; he threw a couple to the backstop, one of which would have been a wild pitch (about fifteen feet over anyone's head back there), except that Hanley Ramirez had broken for second on the pitch and got credit for a stolen base. Then he almost got out of the inning, but Jorge Cantu's ball slithered down the LF line just out of Aramis Ramirez' reach for a game-tying RBI double.
That was the first of two innings Samardzija threw -- coming in and leaving to a large ovation, which I thought was pretty overdone for a kid who's been a pro baseball player for a year and a half. This ain't Notre Dame football any more, people. To be fair, Samardzija, as Dave said to me, had to be pretty "amped" in that first inning. In his second inning of work, he retired the side 1-2-3 and had a nice K of Cody Ross. He's got a chance to be a real good pitcher if he can harness his command -- think of him as Kyle Farnsworth with a brain.
Case #2: Ryan Dempster. Sure, Dempster gave up only one run and two hits in six innings. But the six walks ran up his pitch count so he had to be taken out after six, and he hit Dan Uggla leading off the 2nd, which led to the only run he allowed when Josh Willingham followed with a double. Stuff like that always seems to come back and haunt a team.
Case #3: Aramis Ramirez, Derrek Lee and Kosuke Fukudome, the heart of the order, went 1-for-12 today and stranded a bunch of runners, as did Alfonso Soriano -- Soriano could have broken the 2-2 tie in the 8th, with two RISP, but he popped up. These are the guys who are being paid to drive in runs. D-Lee, in particular, has been disappointing recently, although his single in the 5th could have scored Soriano. Me, I think I'd have held Soriano at third, leaving the bases loaded for Ramirez, though Dave disagreed with me ("send him with two out, it took a perfect throw from Willingham", which is true). Fukudome's looking particularly lost at the plate, and the Cubs, rumor has it, might be seeking a RH-hitting platoon partner for him.
So blame Howry. Absolutely. But also blame the offense; the Cubs had ten hits and five walks today and stranded eleven, including RISP in the 2nd, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th innings. You can't win that way, and although five Marlins relievers did their job, I don't think they're that good. If the Cubs are to be the playoff team we think they are and want them to be, they have to win games like this.
Oh, and despite the statement made at the season ticket lunch the other day -- that the "L" flag was to be retired immediately -- it did fly above the scoreboard after today's loss. Good, I say. While changing the loser mentality is absolutely the right thing to do, the "L" flag doesn't say "we are losers". All it says is, "We lost the game today", telling people riding by on the L or walking through the neighborhood, people who might not, later in the evening when the crowd has all gone home, even know there had been a home game that day.
Enough. Onward to tomorrow; Rich Harden was acquired to be a co-ace with Carlos Zambrano. He's pitched well enough to earn that tag. Now let's get him a win.
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bringing it strong....
don’t think I agree with DFA’ing Howry given how he’s not our worst reliever, but he probably needs to move out of the high leverage situations
no mention of Marmol warming and Lou apparently not having any issues using him 3 days in a row after throwing 40 pitches last night?
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:10 PM CDT reply actions
well. he is not our worst reliever but he is just a waste of roster space
he has been consistently bad..remember last year when he turned a blow out a game against the rockies into a nail biter? The best option would be to DFA him and try to trade him in 10 days
and remember
when he was dominant in the 2nd half of the season and one of the reasons we got to the playoffs
Howry was pretty damn good last year
and had a 1.76 ERA in May this year
he’s been bad of late and its hurt us, but the offense has hurt us just as much
DFA’ing the guy seems like a huge overreaction. He needs to be moved out of high leverage situations, ABSOLUTELY, but DFA’ing him seems drastic
who the hell else are we going to call up? Everyone else has struggled as well….
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions
may be try to get someone in a trade?
I agree with you on one thing though and that is Lou absolutely positively should not use him in close game situations. He got absolutely nothing but a fast ball on which he has lost some velocity. He doesn’t have an out pitch and is giving tons of hits/runs even after 2 strikes.
I think Hendry is definitely trying.
He’s not gonna sit back and let this go on much longer.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I wish you are right..
We don’t have a five or six game cushion to give Howry some slack. We are in a tight race and will need all the cylinders firing. If they make a case for Howry’s Suckitude then why in the heck is Pie sent down? Howry is hurting our chances way more than Pie “would” have.
Don't muddle the argument by bringing in something
that is not germaine to the discussion at hand. Pie couldn’t hit, and was resistant to coaching to help to learn to hit ML pitching. Big difference between what is going on with Howry, and what did go on with Pie.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Well..I can argue with whatever you are saying about Pie..and I don't agree with you but
I understand that he is not the topic of this conversation and will keep him outside of all this.
Thanks for understanding.
I really didn’t want to scold you. (Didn’t mean too). If we bring Pie into this, we could talk about it forever… and lose track of the real topic… which is replacing Howry with someone who can do the job asap.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions
The Germans Got Nothing To Do With It!
Sorry, couldn’t resist an obscure “Smokey and the Bandit” quote. :-p
Eat More Katsui
right
if we acquired someone via trade that forced our hand with a roster spot i’d understand it
but the idea to replace him with the Shark is a risky one, given we’ve seen what 1 appearance out of Samardzija? We have no idea what we have in him and while I’d definitely like to see more it doesn’t mean we just DFA a guy who has had success just 2 months ago
p.s. everyone realizes Shark gave up 1 ER today too right?
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure it's risky.
This kid is a gem though. Of course you can never say, but I expect him to get better & better. Great first outing. Wouldn’t be surprised to see him tomorrow.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Again, I say "DFA"...
... not in the frothing-at-the-mouth sense of “GETRIDOFHIMNOWHENDRY!!!!”, but using the 10-day DFA period to try to make a deal, and in the meantime GET HIM OFF THE ROSTER SO HE CAN’T HURT THE TEAM ANY MORE!!
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al Yellon on Jul 25, 2008 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
but you have to have someone to replace him
you dont just DFA the guy without an idea of who is going to replace him
so who is going to take his innings? (I’d say Gaudin makes the most sense but he got 2 batters last night and was pulled)
then who is going to take his roster spot?
if you don’t have answers to these questions then DFA-ing him is an overreaction
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions
There are many that can take the roster spot.
Starting with the Shark, Wuertz, Ascanio and many others. Gaudin, or any of the other pitchers I’ve mentioned could take his innings as well. DFA’g him is a way of getting someone on the roster pronto who won’t hurt your team the way Howry has lately. DFA’g gives the team a chance to try to trade him. It’s not the end of the world. It is not an overreaction. There are people to take his place. Hendry will also likely be making a trade for another arm in the pen. If you can’t do the job put in front of you, then there is no need for another extra arm in the ‘pen who just throws in blow outs either way.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions
except a guy like Ascanio
was worse than Howry when he was up
and yes Wuertz makes sense, but now you’re going to have to rely heavily on Wuertz, something people were unwilling to do 2 weeks ago!
Everyone is just tired of Howry and they’re thinking “ANYTHING IS BETTER THAN HOWRY”
but just 2 weeks ago it was “ANYONE IS BETTER THAN WUERTZ”, etc
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Ascanio showed promise
when he made his short appearance(s) on the big club, number one. Number two: we wouldn’t have to necessarily rely heavily on Wuertz. It’s not that everyone is tired of Howry, it’s simply that he is no longer effective; he’s worn out. We need to put an end to him hurting the team with his ineffectiveness.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Ascanio
7.94 ERA, 2.12 WHIP
4 BB’s, 3 K’s in 5 2/3 innings
4.23 ERA, 1.28 WHIP in AAA….
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Stats. don't always tell the whole story.
If you asked the Cubs management, I’ll bet they would agree that Ascanio has shown promise.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Ascanio
Has promise, but needs a third pitch.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 25, 2008 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Howry
W/RISP 2 Outs: 14.09 ERA
W/RISP: 6.38 ERA
RUNNERS ON: 5.81 ERA
BASES EMPTY: 4.37 ERA
LAST 20 IP: 13 EARNED RUNS
Nobody cares about your fantasy league team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 25, 2008 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ouch...
Those are some gross numbers. Even worse when you realize that reliever ERA isn’t a perfect stat.
For example, lets say Howry comes in with the bases loaded and two outs, giving up a bases-clearing double. None of those runs are charged to him.
Either way, not good…
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermatrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Jul 26, 2008 4:25 AM CDT up reply actions
here's another question
you realize Pineilla doesn’t have to pitch him right? I mean Pineilla’s choosing him as our best option in tie games so dont you think before just DFA-ing him we should atleast try… i dunno… not using him in tight games?
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree..Lou shouldn't have used him..but my point is if it is agree that he can't be trusted any more
then isn’t he a waste of space?
if that were the case
the entire bullpen other than Marmol and Wood would have been DFA’d by now
list of guys Lou and everyone here hasn’t been able to trust this year:
Lieber
Eyre
Hart
Wuertz
Ascanio
Cotts
etc, etc, etc….
just bc you can’t trust him in big spots right now doesn’t mean he should be immediately thrown off the team without a viable replacement
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly
Great call dart!
I wish the Brewer's an everlasting misery and pain, so naturally I put them in Milwaukee.
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Jul 25, 2008 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions
well in that list..
You don’t NEED to DFA Hart, Wuertz, Ascanio and Cotts (I am not sure about this) because they can be put on a bus to Iowa. But Howry has enough MLB service time accumulated that you either have to DFA him or put him on the DL (If he agrees)
and more so ..for that very reason..Hart, Wuertz, Ascanio are now in Iowa and Cotts was there at one point
With Howry..you have to DFA him because there is no other alternative
right
so your plan to replace Howry is to fire up the bus back and forth between Iowa the rest of the year?
all these guys are similar right now
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions
My plan is to DFA Howry and try to trade for him in 10 days..
Howry’s value is actually less than zero and is hovering in the negative zone meaning that he is actually hurting us. So let’s not pitch Howry in close games any more and let’s try to trade for a late inning reliever or try to find for a solution in house.
that's what i'm saying
you don’t DFA him UNLESS you know you have someone else coming in that you desperately need the roster spot
why DFA him before you make the move to acquire someone else
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Because it gives you a 10 day cushion...
to find someone to fill in temporarily, or if you are lucky permanently. It gives the bull pen and the roster overall flexibility, at a time when it needs it.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions
you can just DL him
and get that same flexibility….
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions
if the other option is DFA'ing him?
seriously?
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions
well if we even have the slightest chance then heck..let's DL him
I don’t care if he is DFA’d or DL’d as long as we can use his space to audition someone else.
It's always dicey making up an injury...
and DL only prolongs the problem. If he is on the DL, you can’t trade him.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions
you're not trading him for anything now anyway
so what would that matter?
if you’re DFA’ing him you lose any leverage in trying to trade him so you get back minimal value
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Not necessarily...
... can you trade someone on the DL? I thought not.
Incidentally, I meant to write in the recap: why doesn’t Lou seem to trust Scott Eyre? He couldn’t be any worse than Howry.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
what on earth are you trading him for?
if we’re a contender looking for bullpen help and we don’t want him why would someone else?
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Because there's always a team that will say...
... “We can fix that.”
Sometimes they’re right. Most times they’re not.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
thank you Al,
for chiming in.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Hey, we all "chime in" here, right?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Yep.
I’m just getting tired trying to explain why you DFA Howry all by myself.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL.
You are funny because you really don’t understand the process or use of DFA’g a player.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
so you're telling me
you can’t trade him now, but by DFA’ing him you can?
all the DFA does is tie your hands into finalizing the decision. not pitching him in tight games and trying to trade him for the time being allows you options to see if he can work out of this (as he did in May)
the problem isn’t Howry as much as the manager who refuses to use anyone else but Howry and Marmol. We’re not hard up for arms in the pen, we’re hard up for arms in the pen Pineilla is willing to put into the game
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 7:11 PM CDT up reply actions
How do I explain this so you will understand?
Howry right now is showing signs of wearing down.
Howry’s job is as one of the main right handed set up men in the ‘pen. Howry can no longer effectively do his job,
If you keep him in the ‘pen, only using him in non-critical situations; it just fills a roster spot that is needed for a main right handed set-up man. If you use in non-critical situations, and he sucks, then- every team will see it, and he will be less attractive as a trade piece. Plus, he’s not going to work out of it throwing in blow outs.
You don’t let a guy work out of it in late July or early August when you in a pennant race.
On the contrary, DFA’g a guy does not tie your hands- it gives you roster flexibility. The Cubs would basically be saying, “we don’t have a place for him anymore, who else thinks he is a good fit?”
But with all that said, the most important thing is, after a long career as a mainly fastball pitcher, with many innings under his belt, Howry appears to be on the down side of his career. Lou has been using him so much lately to try to confirm this. I’d say that it almost confirmed.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions
who is taking those innings
you keep referencing someone to take the impt late innings, but WHO????
i understand how a DFA works, what i don’t understand is how we need a roster spot when he have plenty of well rested bullpen options that Lou ISNT using
we dont desperately need the roster spot, we need a manager to use the bullpen appropriately
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Many options.
Gaudin, Wuertz, the Shark, Ascanio- do I have to list them again? Howry is roster filler. It isn’t exactly that we need a roster spot, but it would give us flexibility, to maybe trade for another arm in the ‘pen, or if you’re lucky, find an in-house option. These other pitchers you talk about are not primary right handed set-up guys. Keeping Howry on the roster is just wasting precious time, esp. as the trade deadline approaches.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions
LSA
Give it up already DartmouthCubsFan ;-)
Lou is forcing Hendry's hand...
by continuing to send Howry out there. Am I the only one that can see this?
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions
He's saying to Hendry,
“get me some arms down here that can do their job.” Lou can’t make it any clearer. Expect Hendry to make a move by trade, and don’t be surprised if the Shark stays for a while, even after Woody comes back.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions
and again
all of those guys have been called up and unused
we havent needed the roster spot, these guys have been here and Lou hasn’t used them
before rushing out to DFA the guy it would make sense to atleast use the well-rested guys you suggest that are in the pen instead of Howry instead of going back to the Howry well over and over and over again
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions
The other guys are not, I repeat not,
primary right handed set-up guys! He’s going to Howry to force Hendry’s hand. He’s screaming, get me some arms that can do the job!”
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions
You will not get a fair value ..I agree...but you won't keep
rotten tomatoes in your fridge for long…do you?
Agreed. Lou should have used Eyre before Howry and Howry should have
been brought in only if the game went to extra innings and it gets absolutely necessary for him to pitch.
I am not in the camp that ask for replacing Howry with Shark...
I think he had a great game considering that today was his debut game and showed great mound presence but having said that I have to see more of him to be absolutely sold. But Howry has no business throwing in close games anymore.
I hate to say it.
b/c Howry has been dependable; but it appears he is just worn down. He’s a major cog in that bull pen & if he can’t do his job anymore, then you DFA him & then try to trade him. The Shark can take his spot.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions
It's pretty much unanimous around here, Al
Howry is killing us.
What doesn't kill you makes you stranger -- The Joker
Felix Pie..
Are we going to see Pie anymore this year?
"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse
I hope so.
’’If somebody had told me we were going to lose Soriano for eight weeks, lose [Carlos] Zambrano and Kerry Wood for a couple of weeks apiece, and then at the same time lose [Reed] Johnson, and then when we played the American League not have a DH [then-injured Daryle Ward], and be in first place by two games, I’d tell you we were pretty fortunate.’’ Lou Piniella (7/23/08)
by drewishdrewid on Jul 25, 2008 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah Al,
It was a bad send in the 5th. The ball just wasn’t hit deep enough into the outfield.
Jimmyeatworld
even with 2 outs that was suicidal. There was no way Soriano was going to score on that hit.
You hold the runner at third and give ARam a chance for redemption.
That's what I told Dave.
Credit to Willingham for a great throw. But I’d still have rather had the bases loaded with Ramirez up.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Yabbut.............
............this is what happens when the line up is not producing. Quade may have felt it was there best chance to push across a run.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
I think the bigger issue is the middle of the order.
Lee, Ramy and Dome have done nothing in July. These guys have to get going.
I would hold onto Howry, but finding another arm is going to be tough. Hell the majority of the playoff contenders are searching for arms.
I sense some anger Al in the post, And I have to say I am getting frustated with this team right now. I Have had enough of the Marlins, time for this Cub team to get going again.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
WHO WHO WHO
replaces Howry?
I keep hearing how Howry needs to go but don’t see a suitable replacement unless we’re rolling the dice on the Shark or Ascanio or other guys who haven’t had a ton of success either this season
so who the heck is replacing Howry?
If we acquired someone and were in a roster crunch i’d understand DFA-ing him, but DFA-ing a guy you don’t have a ready replacement for? What’s the point of that? For now he just needs to be shifted out of high leverage situations and someone else needs to be trusted
of course that would require having the manager learn more than the names Marmol and Howry when calling down to the pen….
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:34 PM CDT reply actions
seriously?
we’ve never seen Ceda throw a big league pitch, Ascanio has been worse than Howry when up here and Billy Petrick has pitched 11 innings this year in High A with the last coming on May 25th….
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah seriously...we can't let Howry blow games anymore..
Ascanio’s ERA in his last 10 games with the cubs was 7.94 and Howry’s is 8.68.
right
7.94 won’t blow the games
gotcha
good call
Billy Petrick too…. fantastic!
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions
I was just making a point..to show that Ascanio can't be worse than Howry..I agree that Ascanio is no K-Rod
But Howry is no Rivera either. Ascanio has a future ..Howry is DONE. Again let me make myself clear that I am not advocating replacing Howry with Ascanio. I just want Howry gone.
then who the heck do you replace him with
or do you advocate the 24 man roster?
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I could care less if he is replaced with Wuertz (because we know that Lou won't use him :-) )
If he is gone then Lou WILL NOT BE ABLE to use Howry.
offense
The biggest problem with this team since the break has been the offense. Fukudome hasn’t really been a factor for 2 months, Aram is ice cold, Dlee is cold, Soriano is doing is going to take his usual tme to get back in the swing of things to get hot again.
I don’t know whats going to happen with Howry. I don’t know if we do have any better options. Kind of like with LaTroy Hawkins, he was bad but the ream really had no options.
Win the next 2 vs the Marlins and this game can be forgotten.
Couple things, Al, on Samardzija:
The second pitch to the backstop wasn’t a wild pitch, it was a pitchout, and Jeff’s throw blew it. They had Ramirez dead to rights, which is not to mention he wouldn’t have been on base if we had the natural SS playing SS and the natural 2B playing 2B, but I digress.
Second, the Farnsworth comparison is just not apt. The only thing he has in common with Farnsie is the 97 MPH stuff. It ends there. Farnsworth never had the movement on any of his pitches, especially the fastball, that Samardzija is able to get. Also, Farnsworth never had the breaking ball that Samardzjia has. It’s still too early to know what Jeff is, but I think it’s safe to say he’s not Kyle Farnsworth.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
farnsworth
had far less movement on his fastball
but a MUCH more refined Slider than what Jeff showed briefly today
to suggest Shark’s secondary stuff is as good as Farnsworth’s was when he was here is silly
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I never made that suggestion.
I do think Samardzjia has a better curveball than Farnsworth ever had, but you’re right about the slider. It was pretty good when he was on.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
you wrote
“Also, Farnsworth never had the breaking ball that Samardzjia has. “
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I meant the curveball.
My mistake. Mea culpa, mea culpa.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
A slider and a curveball
are both technically considered breaking pitches. You’re splitting hairs.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Cubs problems in order of importance
This losing streak after the break can be attributed mostly to the offense. All the big hitters are slumping terrible at the same time. This can be coincidence or it can be a sign of lack of ability to perform under pressure. History is not on the Cubs side as the 2004 and 2007 teams cracked offensively when the pressure was on. Lee has been very dissapointing, but above all I’m most surprised about Aramis’ slump.
2: BullpenA combination of things have made the bullpen a problem. The two most important of those are Wood’s injury and Lou’s mismanagement. He doesn’t use his long relievers as he should (when the lead or deficits are big). He uses the other relivers in the wrong situations (i.e., why wasn’t Gaudin in the game instead of Howry?). Finally, some relievers have just plained sucked and there’s little that one can do with that (although for the record, I’ll say that having Wuertz in the minors is ridiculous). As far as Howry goes, he can only be effective when he throws his heater 95 MPH and with the loss of velocity this year he’s just not going to be effective.
3 Starters pitch counts.It’s frustrating that our starting pitchers have to be almost always taken out of games because of pitch counts and not performance. They have done the job ERA wise but they just throw too many damn pitches. If they didn’t it would ease a lot of the bullpen problems. Sadly, I don’t have a lot of hope on this improving.
All in all the offense is the biggest problem by far. Hopefully it won’t be one of those things that when the offense wakes up the pitching will regress.
About the pitch counts,
Lou did say in his pre-game today that he’s going to let the starters get deeper in games going forward, with the sole exception of Harden.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Offense is a #1 problem....
Not sure I like the starters going deeper…..
Didn’t Z have a tough time getting back on track after a 120something count earlier this year?
More consistent production from the ”$” guys and items 2 and 3 kinda disappear.
Also….would trade some offense for better range/defense at 2nd/SS…...that would also help the pitching. The outfield D has been pretty good and A-Ram and Lee on the corners are better than average.
The best defense is a good offense
Going deeper yes, throwing more pitches no
Definitely can’t have them throw more pitches than they are throwing now. You just hope that they can go deeper without have to throw so many pitches.
Yes....
that’s what I meant…..they should go deeper w/o running up pitch count..I meant to say dont force them to go deeper if they (starters) are running up pitch counts…
BTW…I wish Marquis wasn’t so stubborn….I’d like to see Marshal in the rotation and I think Jason would be excellent out of the pen. No stats here, but it seems like he gets hit harder 2nd/3rd time thru the order…though I’ve seen he have a bad 1st and settle down.
The best defense is a good offense
If Howry was DFA'd do we lose the compensation draft picks?
I know before this season he was expected to be a type B when he became a free agent at the end of this season. I’m assuming so since he didn’t finish the season with us.
Clever signature line
by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Jul 25, 2008 6:48 PM CDT reply actions
also correct
assuming he’d be able to retain at least Type B status
another reason to not overreact and simply move Howry down the pecking order in the pen….
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions
In defense of Howry...
in his outing today, he very well could/should have gotten a third called strike on Hermida before he hit that homer. Watching it on tv, I was quite mad he didnt considering he needs all the help he can get. Brenly pretty much agreed that it should have been strike three. Just though I’d throw that out there since the outcome could have been a bit different for him.
borderline call
It was a borderline call that didn’t go the Cubs way…the ump would probably say it was just a hair low.
Sure
I mean sure pitches like these happen every game (and i hate to dwell on speculations) , but just playing devil’s advocate
No Howry defense
Howry always ends up getting hit hard. When he doesn’t give up runs is usually because the ropes where hit right at people. He has one pitch: a 91MPH fastball with no movement. What else can you expect?
In complete non-deference....
the HR he gave up should have been meaningless had about 4 or 5 starters done a better/their job At BAT
I would have rather seen someone else pitching the 9th though
The best defense is a good offense
True, true
As corny as it sounds, that kinda makes it more of team loss
Sorry....
Kinda new to the blog scene but what does LSA mean?
Loud Sustained Applause
"I don't want hope. Hope is killing me. My dream is to become hopeless. When you're hopeless you don't care. And when you don't care, that indifference makes you attractive." ~George Costanza
My pleasure Gurbal
"I don't want hope. Hope is killing me. My dream is to become hopeless. When you're hopeless you don't care. And when you don't care, that indifference makes you attractive." ~George Costanza
That is so true, my friend
the bottom of the 7th and bottom the 8th spring to mind. Really, though, both teams sucked today. 28 runners LOB between them? It’s a wonder anybody won that game, although we have Bob Howry so I guess that explains it…
"I don't want hope. Hope is killing me. My dream is to become hopeless. When you're hopeless you don't care. And when you don't care, that indifference makes you attractive." ~George Costanza
Yes, one more hit in the later innings with men on 2nd and 3rd
and the HR Howry gave up means nothing.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
Al, you can blow up the pen if you want but..
after Wood and Marmol there is no one down there Lou has any trust in whatsoever.
Lou likes guys who throw hard, throw strikes, and strike people out, such as the Nasty Boys in 1990, and he has been trying to find that kind of guy to be the third guy in the pen.
Howry used to match the make-up Lou is looking for but he is is D-E-D dead. Hart is not ready for prime-time. The rest of the pen is afraid to go after hitters because they either a lack confidence or the stuff to challenge major league hitters.
So DFA Howry. It will make you feel better for 10 minutes but it won’t solve any problems in the pen. In fact it will for Hendry’s hand in trade negotiations and put more pressure on an already tired pen.
I wish the Brewer's an everlasting misery and pain, so naturally I put them in Milwaukee.
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Jul 25, 2008 6:51 PM CDT reply actions
The question I asked above...
... which might have gotten lost in the shuffle, is—why won’t Lou trust Eyre? And if he won’t, why is Eyre on the team?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
that question
could be said for everyone in that pen except Marmol, Wood, and Howry
EVERY SINGLE PERSON
which is why i’m saying if you’re going to DFA Howry you might as well DFA EVERYONE
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Howry has been more consistently bad...
... than the others.
I’d try Gaudin in his slot first (even though Gaudin was bad on Thursday night.)
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I forgot Gaudin...If he is available then he should be used before going to Howry..
heck everyone else in the pen should be used before going to Howry
because he's been given more opportunity
maybe the other guys can be consistently as bad too, then what do we do?
Why would you DFA someone when you don’t have a viable replacement immediately available? WHY?
why not simply avoid using Howry in high leverage situations for a few weeks and see if he’s got anything left. If not DFA him in August
if we were up 8-3 and Howry gives up 1 run in an inning, nobody is losing their mind about this
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
And the point is, we WEREN'T up 8-3.
I would think at this point just about any warm body either in AAA or on the waiver wire would be a viable replacement.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Al, if you've got a complaint today
it’s that Howry was on his fourth appearance in five days. That’s why I wouldn’t have used him.
But I’m assuming Lou and Larry are privy to more information than even you are. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Well... that's absolutely true.
Again, perhaps backing up the idea that Lou was sending a message to Hendry.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Wouldn't it better
if he just picked up the phone? Or better yet….walk down the hall/upstairs and have a litle conversation?
The best defense is a good offense
I'm sure he has.
But since nothing has happened, maybe he wants to send the message a different way.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
offfense
I agree Howry wasn’t the reason we lost this game…repeated failures by the offense specifically Ward, Fukudome and Soriano are to blame for this game. You have to score more than 2 to win 90% of the time.
Go Astros!
Apart from yesterday
Gaudin has pitched great. And it’s not like he completely sucked yesterday. Any reliever will give up two hits once in a while.
Suspect tonight Lou is asking himself the same questions
What doesn't kill you makes you stranger -- The Joker
Hope he comes up with some answers.
We need them NOW.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Is there any sensible reason why
Why he had Howry today instead of Gaudin?
Howry has been ineffective and has pitched a lot lately. Gaudin has been effective (yesterday’s two hitters notwithstanding) and had not been used as much.
Hendry's hand isn't any more forced by DFA'g Howry.
Instead it gives him time. If you DFA a guy, you’re saying, “hey, he’s not much use to us anymore, who else could use him?”
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions
that outing
was also Howry’s 4th outing in 5 days….
there are some serious issues with the bullpen usage patterns
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 7:03 PM CDT reply actions
Now on this we completely agree.
As I said, Dempster’s walks forced Lou into the pen earlier today than he probably would have liked.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Howry is just your scapegoat
the crux of the problem is the manager not using other guys in the pen.
We’ve harped on this all season, but what good does it do DFA’ing Howry when Lou doesn’t want to use anyone else in the pen anyway
Its not like we’ve been out of guys down there and guys are gassed so we HAVE to use Howry
Lou just keeps choosing to go to him. I could understand if HOwry was the last guy in the pen and he kept having to pitch because other guys were tired, but that’s not the case. Other guys are well rested and the manager doesnt trust them to get the job done either
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions
"but what good does it do DFA’ing Howry "
Can’t you see? At the very least the good is that Lou will not be able to use him. He is automatically forced to use someone else ;-)
so why dont we take care of the real problem
Lets get rid of Lou! He’s washed up! He can’t manage anymore, look at the last two weeks! He doesn’t know what he’s doing!
end sarcasm
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Well I am not
I still think overall Lou is a BAD manager with a really good team he is doing his best to mess up and since I have said this since April it is not like I am just freaking out over some losses. I know we are stuck with Lou but he has totally messed up the bullpen and the bench and thinks that by coddling some players and screwing others he can be THE MAN and keep everyone in line.
I am however hopeful that the good team will overcome the bad manager but it is not
easy when he wants to do the SAME wrong thing to prove he knows what it is doing
whether that is letting E-Patt play left for 4 games or throwing out Howry in key situations when he is clearly struggling big time or trying to get Marmol’s arm to fall off.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 25, 2008 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow, I don't know how to respond to this
Would you rather have Dusty?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't agree with Doggie..but
is there no middle ground between Lou and Dusty? It’s actually hilarious how Dusty has become the standard of reference for manager suckitude :-D
You can't say it isn't well-deserved
I don’t agree with everything Lou does, but he is the best Cubs manager I’ve seen since … maybe Durocher.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Why ?
Because the team has been winning under him. I get that makes a lot of sense but he has a better TEAM than any Cub manager in my life time
I sincerely believe there are many other managers who could handle this team better.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 25, 2008 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions
2004 team was pretty darned good
And you saw what happened with them.
What other managers would handle this team better?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I pretty much agree w/ the stalker.....
I’m not sure how much of an upgrade Lou is over Dusty…..as for the best manager ….I liked Jim Frey. But…I’m not sure how really important a manager is in baseball…..
Agree w/ most posters here…..Cubs haven’t had a manager that handles the pitching staff well in a long time…..But that said….that’s where the manager makes most off the decisions and hence the debate
The best defense is a good offense
What managers
do handle a pitching staff well, in your opinion, kc?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions
The point I was trying to make
Is everyone will debate all day about who handles pitching staffs (well) and pitching decisions.
Riggleman I thought was pretty good at handling the staff in 98. I don’t like the way LaRussa handles a pitchiing stafff. I’d saay the best in the NL over the last few years has been Bobby cox….but then…who couldn’t handle the staff he had many of those years?
The best defense is a good offense
Lou is a major upgrade over Dusty.
Dusty is also a better manager than he gets credit for.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions
He probably is
And the first two years, I really had faith in him. He began to lose me at the end of 2004, when everything fell apart and the inmates started to run the asylum. His love affair with C-Patt and Neifi in 2005 soured me even worse. And the way the team tanked after D-Lee got hurt in 2006 sealed it. I wasn’t expecting the Cubs to win the division after that, but they shouldn’t have been as bad as they were. It’s as if he was giving the team tacit approval to tank it.
And when it comes to pitchers, all I’ll say to Reds fans is: Beware. They’ve got a lot of good young arms in Cincy, and I’d hate for Dusty to mess them up (as you could say he’s done already to Harang).
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Hopefully this changes very soon.....
But Dusty is the only Cub manager in the last 100 years lead a team that won a post season series
The best defense is a good offense
Thank you.
Dusty was shamefully run out of town. Everybody should remember that Dusty changed up the expectations before Lou ever got here.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll Take The Job
Always wanted to sit there, pushing the buttons and chewing and spitting and saying stuff like “Let’s see a little pepper on the ol’ mustard there” and “It only takes two to go to right”. BTW the Browns and Senators are still in the league, right?
Eat More Katsui
No I would rather have Francona
but he is not available. Look there are a lot of guys I would rather have them Lou
and no Dusty is not one of them. So I have to choose between a guy who plays Neffi as his main leadoff hitter and a guy who plays E-Patt in LF. Both of these players might have some use IN THE RIGHT place. The one thing they have in common is their stubborn refusal to ever admit a mistake.
I understand we are stuck with Lou and I am terrified that no one is likely to be
able to change his thinking towards both BP and bench managing. My faith is in the players to just do what I know they are capable of and win despite him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 25, 2008 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions
How many times did Lou
use E-Patt in left? And how many timesdid Dusty lead off with Neifi or C-Patt?
The comparison is ludicrous.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions
He used E Patt 4 times
He committed 3 errors. It was 4 times too many. Neffi unlike E-Pat
was not without a position and talent ( I think E Pat might get to the MLB level but he is not there now). Neffi was guy being misused , E-Patt was a guy who should NEVER been on the roster except Lou wanted speed even if the speed could neither field nor hit.
Lou misuses players on a daily basis just as Dusty did though Dusty
did tend to misuse the same players , Lou does spread it around more
I give him credit for that
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 25, 2008 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Four games is too many
particularly when Soriano was out. OK.
I used to think you knew your stuff. Now I’m not so sure.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions
On that I knew my stuff.
E-Pat had ALWAYS been a disaster in the OF , he is not a good infielder but he is a VERY bad outfielder. I infamously posted the day of his first game in LF that E Pat in the outfield was an error waiting to happen. Well it did several times over. I am no baseball genius but why did EVERYONE but Lou know E-Pat could not play the OF ? I mean he had speed so Lou wanted that more then anything.
Obviously I am in a bit of a mood tonight and it is utterly unrelated to today’s game. I have felt this way all season re Lou.
Ok off home. You can go over Lou’s brilliance in managing without fear of contradiction ( unless I go by the Apple Store before midnight for some free internet access.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 25, 2008 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, if it's any consolation,
you’ll never see E-Patt in the Cubs outfield again. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Would you have rather had Girardi or Gonzales?
They were pretty much the other “hot” names when the Cubs signed Pinella
The best defense is a good offense
Of course I was partial to Joe,
kc, and I know you know why. But Hendry knew best.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions
We used to say....
You can wish/want in one hand and…...XXXX in the other…and see which one fills faster…...:)
Anyone think Brenley would do any better w/ this team?
I won’t answer…BUT I do think the team cannot change managers at this point…yes…stating the obvious.
The best defense is a good offense
The reviews of Brenly's managerial ability I've heard
haven’t been positive.
I think he’s much better off in the broadcast booth. (Speaking of which, I think he’s been doing an outstanding job. But I liked him in his first go-round with the Cubs, too.)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with you that Lou isn't the best manager around.
1. I don’t like the way he abuses DeRo.
2. I don’t like the way he jerks Marquis around (in and out of the rotation), then complains about a less-than-perfect outing.
3. I don’t like the way he has abused Soto.
4. I don’t like the way he has abused Marmol.
5. I think he says things to the media (like the E-Patt LF statement) that should not be made public.
That said, the team still seems to be behind him so I would be hesitant to change jockeys in the middle of a race. Next year? Trammell, I hope.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
DeRo, Soto and Marmol are "abused"?
Yipes. I don’t know what to say about this, either. Pretty breathtaking.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions
DeRo should be the starting 2B. Period.
Fontenot is making $400,000 this year—he can buy an OF glove.
I believe that both Soto and Marmol have been overused this year, and it’s harder for young players to say “Skip, I need a day off”. Most managers try to over-protect their younger players for just that reason.
I don’t want Marmol to be a one-year wonder.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Fontenot can't play outfield
Simple as that. He’s got to find a way to get into games now and then.
As for Soto and Marmol, I’m not concerned. Marmol isn’t exactly a rookie. Soto’s workload is, I don’t think, unusual for a catcher.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions
How do you know he can't play OF?
Have you ever seen him try?
The first time Bobby Cox put DeRo in the OF (in an emergency) he was awful. And Bobby didn’t put him there again except in emergencies or blowouts.
How did DeRo become a good OF? By getting to the park an hour before BP every day in the Texas heat in 2005 and taking fly balls from the outfield coach. It was about two months of that routine before they gave him his first OF start.
Tell Fontenot to get to the park early and start shagging… Learning to play the OF is nothing more than hard work. Since Fontenot can’t play the left side very well, he needs to do something to enhance his value. What’s he going to do if Lou retires after the season? Or if TTTSNBN is made next off-season?
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
And I'm sure you'd have the patience
to let Fontenot work out the kinks. The first time he stunk it up out there, you’d probably be screaming bloody murder.
DeRo hasn’t been abused by anybody. His versatility is what makes him valuable.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions
You make a lot of dubious claims here.
1. DeRo is not being abused, he gives the team flexibility.
2. He puts Marquis in and out the rotation because Marquis is resistant to coaching, and can not be trusted. He states the facts when Marquis doesn’t pitch well, he does likewise and says so.
3. Soto is the starting catcher, he catches a lot because that is his job.
4. If Howry and others could do their job, he wouldn’t have to go to Marmol, (who can do his job).
5. EPatt- LF- what is he supposed to say? He tried Patterson in left- it didn’t work.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 8:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Take a look at DeRo's BA in July...
That flexibility has come at a high price offensively. That hurts more because of Ramy’s and DLee’s slumps. Leaving DeRo at 2B and using your fourth OF more (Murton when he was here, RJ, etc.) would yield a better all-around result. DeRo hit better in the second half last year after the Fontenot experiment ended and he settled in at 2B.
Most managers catch their backup once a week. Soto has started a lot more games than that, and he’s been slumping recently as well.
As for E-Patt, I don’t have a problem with Lou trying him out there, finding out that he was a defensive liability, and not putting there again. I have a problem with him stating it publicly for the following reasons:
1. It reduces his trade value.
2. It shatters his confidence.
3. It lets the other manager know that you have one less potential move to make during a game.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
If you can establish that the reason
that DeRo’s BA dropped is because he has been playing in the OF, or at 3rd when Rami was down, or subbing for D. Lee at first; then I would be inclined to agree with you. I don’t think that can be established factually. Now if DeRo was bitching everyday, saying he couldn’t concentrate because he was constantly being moved around, I would also be inclned to side with you. He continues to say that as long as he is in the line-up it’s ok with him. Soto has had to make more starts because the Cubs have two catchers on the roster. If players are injured on the roster, you can’t always start your back-up every week. Doing so reduces your options on the bench. Patterson simply wasn’t an outfielder, everyone in the ML knew it.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Thank you very much
Unless you can establish a relationship between DeRo switching positions all the time and his decrease in batting average, it’s meaningless.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I think you're way off base here.
You are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is to the contrary. Lou is going to Howry over & over to force Hendry’s hand. He’s saying, “get me some arms down here that can do the job.” These arms are needed in the ‘pen. Who, and how is Lou coddling some players? Being a manager is about getting the best possible outcome from your 25 guys on the roster, not by coddling some, and screwing others as you say. If your roster needs tweaking, you try to change it to maximize the best possible outcome for the TEAM. Managing is not about proving you know what you are doing. Lou already knows what he is doing.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions
So Lou uses Howry
And lets him lose games ” to force Hendry’s hand” instead of oh maybe
letting the LONG relievers pitch long and other guys get more than one batter? Um “coddling ” how bout Mr. ” I have to play him in the the late innings of one run lead games even if he is a BAD fielder because , HE iS A SUPERSTAR and the fans expect to see him ” I still don’t get how that unlike Dusty’s “walks clog the bases” did not piss the hell out of Cub fans. Of course he does not “coddle” Marmol he just loves him so much he wants to pitch every inning.
Being a manager is EXACTLY about getting the best of 25 guys on the roster
How does he do that by exiling Lieber to Siberia , and now doing the same
to Marshall ? I have told this to exhaustion but the series in Philly in APRIL
in which Lou A. used the ENTIRE bench in a 9 inning game that went 10
( we won on an error) B watched BACK up leadoff hitter Victorino see 12 pitches in his first at bat ( and he did not get on) while you know who struck out on 3 pitches I lost all respect in him as a manager.
He throws a good tantrum and we are stuck with him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 25, 2008 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm still waiting
to hear who your perfect manager is.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I like a lot of other managers
Especially Francona and Sciosa but they are a bit busy right now. You think Lou is the BEST manager in the MLB ?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 25, 2008 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions
No
But I think he’s the best manager the Cubs have had in a long, long time. And certainly a vast upgrade over the past three or four.
And he does have a bit of a track record, doesn’t he?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions
You don't get it either...
These other pitchers are not primary right handed set-up guys. Simple as that. Playing Soriano in tight games late is about keeping his bat in the line-up, it’s a trade-off whenever you take a bat like Soriano’s out of the line-up. Marmol wouldn’t have to pitch so much if Howry did his job, likewise Lieber, likewise Wuertz, likewise Hart. Marshall is of no use to us at this point in time with Gaudin & Marquis on the roster, and Eyre off the DL. Lastly, I have no idea what you are trying to say by bringing up the game vs. Philly in April. First off, Victorino is a starter. How is it Lou’s fault that Victorino saw12 pitches, and somebody else struck out on 3 pitches? You rant and rave, and honesty compels me to tell you that you really don’t know much about Major League Baseball.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions
One last thing
Even if you believe that keeping Soriano in a one or two run lead
in the 9th IN CASE YOU BLOW IT AND WANT HIS BAT, do you say
to the press and the fans that the reason you can’t pull him is that
“He is a superstar and the fans expect to see him” ? How does THAT play in the clubhouse ?
The point about Victorino is that he was a REAL lead off hitter who made a pitcher throw 12 pitches to the first batter and that set a tone for the game Vs you know who and you know what. You want to explain to me how a smart manager uses his ENTIRE bench ( no one was injured or out) in a 9 inning tied road game. Yes that sir is GREAT
managing.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 25, 2008 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't remember the game you cite specifically.
Listen man, these guys are professionals… They know he is a superstar. I said replacing Soriano for defensive purposes is always a trade off. There is a big difference between what Lou tells the media, and what he keeps to himself. If you think Lou is a terrible manager, then you are deluded.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Jeez I can't get out here
So let me get this straight first you say Lou uses Howry even though he is “struggling” to put it nicely to “force Hendry’s hand
In other words lose a few games but scare Hendry into getting
Fuentes ? and now you say that though Lou’s REAL reason for
for keeping in Soriano was for his bat ( which I think is true) but it sounds better to the public ( and the team) to say you did because he is a superstar that the fans expect to see ? I mean that plays way better than saying his bat outweighs his defensive liability.
OK I called in my take off. Now maybe by the time I get home
THE ASTROS MAY SCORE
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 25, 2008 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Listen Doggie.
I admire your enthusiasm for the Cubs. I may not agree with you, but I damn well will defend your right to speak your mind. I just think you are wrong. Lou’s not losing games to scare Hendry and force his hand. He’s putting Howry out there to do his job, and he plainly can no longer do his job, they may win if Howry can some how get through it, they may lose, (like today), if the bats are silent, and Howry can’t do his job. Either way, Howry isn’t doing his job as a PRIMARY RH SET-UP MAN. This if forcing Lou to use Marmol more, forcing Lou to make switches that he might not want to make. If you didn’t do your job at work, would you expect the boss to say, that’s ok- we’ll take you out of your high pressure situation and go light on ya, maybe you can get it back? No. He would fire your butt for not doing your job. Then he would get somebody in there who would at least do the work. Get it?
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions
We have to accept the fact that
Howry is to Piniella what Neifi was to Baker. That’s the painful truth.
That's not the truth..that would be a baseless accusation.
Truth is that Lou is giving Howry every chance to get better and unfortunately he might be giving CPR to a corpse.
right
sweet precious Lou could never make a mistake
if you truly believe Howry needs to be DFA’d i don’t see how you could suggest this is any different than Dusty and Neifi
that makes NO sense
if Howry deserves to be DFA’d and he’s that bad and Lou keeps going to him repeatedly in big games that’s the same exact situation as Dusty batting Neifi who should’ve been DFA’d #2 every game
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2008 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
Based on performance Howry should be strickly pitching in a mop up role. It’s not like he hasn’t been given enough of a chance. For whatever reason he is still getting used in premier situations when there are other better alternatives.
Lou is forcing Hendry's hand by going to Howry again and again...
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you implying that Lou is "throwing" games
(by putting a guy out there that he thinks will lose a game) just to get Hendry to make a trade? That’s a very serious charge, if it’s what you mean.
Without Wood, Lou doesn’t have many options, but none of his other options has been “lights out” recently. And I don’t want Shark’s 2nd ML appearance to be as a closer—especially since he was a SP in the minors.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
He's not throwing games.
He’s hoping that Howry can do his job, but if not it shows Hendry pretty clearly that he needs someone who can do his job. It is cause and effect.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Did you really think this was going to be easy?
Of course it isn’t going to be a cakewalk. I though Morrissey’s column in the Tribune today was spot on. A lot of Cubs fans thought this was going to be a coronation. It’s going to be a fight to the finish. I do think the Cubs will prevail, because they have the best team in the division (although not by much over Milwaukee).
Al, I don’t think you DFA Howry. He is nowhere near LaTroy Hawkins territory. Maybe you put Howry in some low-stress situations for a while and see if he can work things out. If he can’t, you’ve got plenty of time to decide what to do with him.
Meanwhile, I think we all need to take a deep breath and focus on the next 59 or so games, not this one.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 7:17 PM CDT reply actions
I agree that it is not going to be easy..
but that doesn’t mean that we try our best to complicate it any further. The Cubs have the best team in the division and have the highest payroll in the division ..all on paper. But we should start fixing our problems fast. As you said this is going to be a very tight race so lets not make it any more tighter by using Howry in close situations.
Or in other words:
In through the nose…out through the mouth. And repeat.
I wish the Brewer's an everlasting misery and pain, so naturally I put them in Milwaukee.
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Jul 25, 2008 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions
My $0.03
1. Ramy is swinging a tired bat. I think those two trips to the DR have caught up with him. Hopefully, DeRo is at 3B tomorrow.
2. I’d like to see Dome moved down to #6 or #7. He’s pressing, and could use some lower-pressure ABs (also a few more off-days; Lou didn’t rest him nearly enough in the first half.
3. Maybe a little lineup roulette would help guys break out of their funk: maybe Ramy #3, Lee #4, Soto #5. That would give everyone a fresh look.
4. Soto played way too much in the first half (and I think Lou’s excuse of Sori missing is a crock), and I’m worried that he will tail off. That puts more pressure on Ramy and DLee.
5. I don’t think that we should DFA Howry (mostly because I don’t have any more confidence in Wuertz or Ascanio in high-leverage situations), but he could use a few days off and a few lower pressure appearances.
6. Theriot needs more days off, especially if Cedeno is going well. Remember what happened to him last year?
7. I don’t think any of us realizes how much it takes out of DeRo to constantly switch positions. His bat has seemed a bit tired in the last three weeks. He needed today off, but he can’t have adequate days off himself and rest everyone else. Maybe RJ can play some RF (“platoon” with Dome) when Edmonds is back?
I guess the thing that concerns me most is that Lou went to the whip on the first turn, and the horse is tired on the back straightaway. Marmol, Howry, Soto, Dome, Riot, Ramy, DeRo and DLee were all overworked in the first half. But, once everyone gets his second wind, I think we’ll be fine.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Maybe Lou went to the whip
Because he wanted a cushion when the team hit a rough patch. Better to have had this with a 4.5-game lead than a 1- or 2-game lead.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions
The $64,000 question is:
Did they start sprinting too early in the marathon?
If they get their second wind (relatively easy for position players), they’ll be fine. My biggest concern is for Soto and the bullpen—two positions at which in-season recovery are the most difficult.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Soto's workload doesn't seem to be ridiculous
I think the biggest problem the team has right now is the middle of the order. Once their bats get going, all will be well.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I hope you are right.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Only time will tell
But the pitching lately, and really for most of the season, has been outstanding. If it were the other way around, I’d be a lot more concerned.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Milwaukee Motivation
Now we know why the Brewers have been so motivated in their latest streak:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080725/ap_on_fe_st/odd_mower_madness
LOL
What’s not clear from that story, however, is whether shooting the lawn mower worked…
"I don't want hope. Hope is killing me. My dream is to become hopeless. When you're hopeless you don't care. And when you don't care, that indifference makes you attractive." ~George Costanza
Why wouldn't you use Marshall
for a few innings. I like him in the pen. He has good stuff for a couple of innings. It is the third time around that he no longer confuses hitters. He would have been a good option today. I don’t think it is wise or fair to put a young pitcher in with only a 1 run lead. Lou has to trust other guys in his bullpen or we are going to exhaust our best relievers.
That's why he put in Samardzija
Lou isn’t afraid to use a kid in a tough situation. Besides, Shark has played football in front of 100,000 people. I think he might be a little more used to the big atmosphere than some others.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I think he's holding Marshall back
as the ultimate reserve because he wants to be able to spot start Marshall when someone else (Marquis) goes t!ts-up.
’’If somebody had told me we were going to lose Soriano for eight weeks, lose [Carlos] Zambrano and Kerry Wood for a couple of weeks apiece, and then at the same time lose [Reed] Johnson, and then when we played the American League not have a DH [then-injured Daryle Ward], and be in first place by two games, I’d tell you we were pretty fortunate.’’ Lou Piniella (7/23/08)
by drewishdrewid on Jul 25, 2008 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Plus, has Howry really blown "game after game"?
I know, two in the last week. Any others?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 7:40 PM CDT reply actions
Isn't that enough?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Hey, one is too many
But he’s got a ways to go to reach LaToya status, you must admit.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Al: as much as I am down on Howry,
our bats are putting WAY too much pressure on the pitchers. We have swung the bats well in 2 games since the ASG. Look at our record in spite of all the quality starts. No one can have a perfect bullpen and we are struggling without our closer for over two weeks.
Wouldn’t it be nice if our big bats step up? THE BATS BEING COLD SEEMS TO BE OUR BIGGEST PROBLEM. If you look at the Brewers 4 wins in StL, most of the runs came in the 5th inning or later? Remind you of how we were scoring runs when we were hot?
IT IS NOT JUST THAT OUR GUYS ARE COLD, THEY ARE NOT GETTING CLUTCH HITS EITHER. I do think this will turn around, I just hope it happens before the team heads to Milwaukee on Monday. Clutch hitting takes pressure off of pitchers and makes everything work better.
THIS IS OUR CENTURY!!
LSA
The pitching is not the problem with this team right now. The hitting, particularly from the middle of the order, is. There was plenty of hitting today, but not in key situations.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed, as I already posted...
... that the bats were as big a problem today as Howry.
However, I want to point out that even when Howry was put into a game with a 7-run lead, he necessitated getting Carlos Marmol into the game by the time he was done.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
You think it's possible Marmol would have worked that game anyway, Al?
He hadn’t pitched in a while, and maybe Lou would have put him in to get some work/work out the kinks. I was under the impression he was coming in come hell or high water.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I am confused as to why Lou hasn't called on Scott Eyre yet
Why bring him off the DL if you are not going to use him? The 9th today was a perfect chance for Eyre to get back to work. He trusts the Shark or Howry more than Scottie? What gives?
THIS IS OUR CENTURY!!
I blame the offense more than the pitching.
Even with the homer off Howry (which should not have happened because he struck him out a couple of pitches before that), they only gave up 3 runs. I think that is a pretty good days work for a pitching staff. THE SO CALLED STARS ON THIS TEAM ARE STINKIN IT UP! 11 runners left on base again today. The supporting cast are the only ones hitting. Theriot, Johnson, Fontenot and Blanco and Cedeno yesterday. Lee needs to be dropped in the order. Immediately. He is too tentative right now. He had a hanging slider over the middle of the plate today that when he is on, would have been 4 rows up in the bleachers. But he is even late on sliders.
Get 'Em In Like The Way They Got On
Patient at bats, solid contact, BBs, no “porn hacks” trying to swat 7-run homers with one swing.
Eat More Katsui
"Porn hacks?"
Fantastic!
All this Cubs team needs now to complete that image is for everyone to grow Mark Spitz style ‘staches…
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermatrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Jul 26, 2008 4:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Is this team still slumping?
Or is their play lately more indicative of their overall talent? DLee is hitting at about his career averages and we don’t yet know how good Fukudome is. ARAM of the other hand is really falling. This loss today was extremely painful as have all of the recent losses. After their playoff performance last year, I just don’t trust them.
So the first 95 or so games of the year
aren’t indicative of the team, but the last seven or eight are.
That’s ridiculous, and totally indicative of the “sky is falling” mentality.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Listen I don't need your criticism
I can voice my opinion and concerns if I want and I don’t need your feedback. Actually it’s been more than 7 or eight games that they struggled but thanks for bringing it up.
I don’t know who’s more irritating, NBF or the real Bruce Froemming. Grow up
I don't need your BS, either
If you voice your opinion here, better get used to people ripping it. It happens to all of us.
What is your definition of “struggle”? Below .500? Just above .500? Do you even know?
Maybe you should grow up a little bit yourself. You must be a riot to hang around with.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions
The last week was the problem for the Mets
And looking at it after 162 games is a little different than after, say, 100.
Put on a fresh set of diapers and enjoy the rest of the season, if you can.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Diapers really?
What are you 12? Do your parents know your using the computer? Try and have a constructive discussion or keep your bitterness to yourself
Ha! You must have been reading my mind
because that’s exactly what I was going to say about you! Brilliant!
If you really think what we saw from the Cubs the first 95 games or so was unrepresentative of what the team really was, I have a suggestion: Quit following this team. Because you’ll only be heartbroken.
Do you were Pampers or Depends, BTW?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Another "quit following this team" comment?
Now who’s predictable? BTW, If you could actually read, you’d notice that I didn’t say how they were playing was representative, I’m just concerned that they’re slumping.
Now go away, you’re embarrassing yourself.
What a bunch of BS
The title of your post is “Is this team still slumping?” Then you assert that maybe they weren’t very good to begin with, or at least as good as they’ve looked for the vast majority of the season.
If you didn’t want to embarrass yourself, you shouldn’t have posted in the first place.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions
That's all you've got?
Wow, I point out your mistake and you mimic what I said. Your should think it over before you even respond to someone’s post.
Sad. And a little amusing.
What mistake?
I’m just reading what you wrote.
You know, you might be more of a cloth-diaper man. Hope the safety pins aren’t too uncomfortable.
Enough.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions
You guys should get a room....
LOL.
Nobody cares about your fantasy league team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 25, 2008 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL
Thanks for your suggestion, but I’ll kindly pass. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I just don't think
you pay attention to my needs. Sometimes I just like to be held and told Sabathia isn’t as good as he looks.
(I keed, I keed.)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I meant a padded room, gents...LOL.
What did you guys think I meant? :)
Nobody cares about your fantasy league team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 25, 2008 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Whew!
Well, why didn’t you say so? :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Another Howry Thought --
Comment all we want but the bottom line—
Do you feel comfortable from this point on with Howry entering the game? Personally, I am fed up with Lou bringing in Howry for any other reason than to try to get a few outs in a game in which the Cubs are behind by at least 7 or 8 or one in which the Cubs are ahead by at least 7 or 8 runs.
Earlier in the season, when Howry was struggling, numerous people said ” he’ll work his way out of it - just get past the first couple of months and he’ll be okay - he did it in 2007, he’ll do it again this year.” Well here we are in late July and here we have Howry with no idea how to control his one off-speed pitch and with nothing left on his straight-as-an-arrow 90 MPH fastball.
DFA, release, or whatever the Cubs want to do, I personally do not want him around. Hendry can search for someone on a non-contender’s roster or search harder in the farm system, but the bottom line is -
GET RID OF HOWRY !!!
Just one more blown save or blown hold is one more than the Cubs can afford with this guy. IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON !!!
There is absolutely no reason for this guy to be here any more.
Again, replace him...with WHO????????????
The aforementioned names in the system? There’s a lot of huffing and puffing here and knee-jerk reaction.
If this team is scoring runs, we’re not even discussing this. In the last game thread—I said there’s no longer room for an error by the pen in all of these close games.
With multiple-run leads, like the Cubs had early in the season—the pen would be ‘fine’ in everybody’s eyes.
All problems are magnified when the pen has to be perfect 100% of the time. I agree with Not Bruce…..this team has to start swinging productive bats.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 25, 2008 8:26 PM CDT reply actions
And I agree with SDSJM
Nice post, and not just because my name is in it. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Replace Him Period --
This is not about blasting Howry because the Cubs are not scoring runs -
It is about blasting Howry because he is getting blasted.
If the system does not have the arm we need, then find one on someone else’s roster and make a move.
The bottom line is - DO NOT USE HOWRY IN ANY SITUATION FOR A HOLD, SAVE, OR REMOTELY CLOSE GAME.
Are you trying to say that Lou should Howry out there again in a game situation like today? Two, three, or more days is not going to cure what this guy no longer has - the ability to get batters out on a consistent basis.
If the Cubs were scoring more, the facts would still be out there - the Cubs can no longer count on Howry to do the job he once was good at. A batter can get a hit 3 out of every 10 opportunities and is a producer. A pitcher cannot - and Howry has been consistent in doing just that - he continues to give the oppostion far too many opportunities.
It is time to move on without him.
I wish we could all stop projecting
our neuroses on this team.
I don’t wanna go off on a rant here, but whatever little happy fantasies or gloomy visions about this season lurk in our psyches, they have absolutely no relation to what happens between the white lines.
Who can say exactly what the next two weeks, or the next two games for that matter, will be like? Which stats or trends foretold Ronny Cedeno and Henry Blanco’s power contributions last night? What formula can tell us which batters Marmol will walk and which he will make look foolish with a nasty & timely slider?
The reason we’re so tense, and why baseball is so great, is that we really have no idea what is about to happen next. I for one can’t wait to see what happens tomorrow.
Of course, that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong…
"Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." ~Master Yoda
by Goodie1969 on Jul 25, 2008 8:39 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
LSA
Very nice post. I, for one, can’t wait until tomorrow’s game.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions
You couldn't be more right...
My frizzle.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions
That Goodie guy...
Has a knack for expressing what no one else can, and in a way that puts people at ease.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Around here
that’s a good knack to have.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Doesn't hurt that he is an excellent writer,
with an extensive vocabulary. When he’s upset, he can reduce people to tears with one sentence.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions
After reading all of
the different opinions on here he pretty much said how I feel.
Carlos Zambrano and Rich Harden. Now that's a pair of Aces.
He's the voice of reason.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't let it go to your head,
Goodie. You’re always one post away from being an idiot. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions
He won't.
He’s not even here anymore, he’s over at the Houston Milwaukee thread.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Wonderful post
"We have a pretty strong belief that we are going to win those types of games. It's our confidence. "--Cubs pitcher Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 25, 2008 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
I just reccomended it..
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
by Bump Bailey on Jul 25, 2008 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions
And I still think the "L" flag
is a ‘tradition” that needs to end. This ain’t 1937. What’s the point? If the team must announce a loss to some poor soul that is without a newspaper , a TV, a radio, The Internets, Twitter, a cell phone, and God knows what else—just put the score on the Clark & Addison board, where it rotates with advertisements.
The flag is symbolic of too much frustration. Make it go away.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 25, 2008 8:39 PM CDT reply actions
OK, you lost me there
If you’re going to get rid of the “L” flag for those reasons, get rid of the “W” flag, too. Same thing. Everybody knew what happened in the game, right?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Right.
It’s a charming Wrigley Field tradition. Why end it?
Again, the “L” flag doesn’t say “We are losers”. All it says is “We lost today’s game”.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Absolutely right
If the point of it all is to inform passers-by what happened in the game, then you’re doing them a disservice by not posting the “L.” Again, it’s no different than giving out medals to 10th-place teams in a youth soccer tournament.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
We shouldn't put the score on the scoreboard either.
By that logic, we should just refuse to acknowledge any loss… wouldn’t want to be reminded of the years of frustration.
The flag is a message, it isn’t symbolic of anything.
In the middle of a good time, Truth gave me her icy kiss. Look around, you must be joking. All that way, all that way for this -Oysterband
Only One Person to Blame
What the hell was Lou thinking of ? Bringing this kid in a situation like this ? Come on
he should have been in a blow out his first time….. this was no place for a practice run.
Then Howry….... its over Lou & Larry this guy doesn’t have it anymore…...
I guess the bullpen is a slippery slope…... when I see Marmol I know when to turn the TV off…..........
by nimblenikelfoos on Jul 25, 2008 8:43 PM CDT reply actions
why turn it on, then?
’’If somebody had told me we were going to lose Soriano for eight weeks, lose [Carlos] Zambrano and Kerry Wood for a couple of weeks apiece, and then at the same time lose [Reed] Johnson, and then when we played the American League not have a DH [then-injured Daryle Ward], and be in first place by two games, I’d tell you we were pretty fortunate.’’ Lou Piniella (7/23/08)
by drewishdrewid on Jul 25, 2008 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Its about the little things and time to think about Roberts again
Little things – Are our coaches & GM up for the challenge ???
1) Lee & Rami are getting nothing to hit. Do we see them making adjustments to drive the ball into right field
2) Why was the 0 – 2 pitch that Samardzija let go up the middle even close to the plate. We seem to allow alot of 0 -2 hits when we are struggling
3) What the hell was Soriano doing trying to score on the hard hit by Lee, you could see off the bat he had no chance.
4) Ward = What purpose ???
5) Batters are now making Marmol throw closer to the zone. Thats why his pitch count is way up. righties are laying off the silder that winds up out side
6) Save the pen for days like today, not with 6 run leads
This teams is not adjusting and the rest of the NL is.
The starters have done great lately and nothing to show for it. The team should be 30 games over right now with a good bull pen and timely hitting
We need Roberts & Sherill from Baltimore now !!! Give up Felix, Ronnie and whoever else they want now.
We all know Soriano is not a lead off hitter, but Lou will always fold
Line up
Roberts
Theriot
Soriano
Rami
Soto
Dome
Lee
Edmonds / Johnson
You have Dero play 3 – 4 times a week to give guys are rest. & he would be good off the bench.
As a long suffering cubs & ny rangers fan, what I remember most about the rangers cup run in 1994 was the 2 deals they made right at the deadline.
The fan’s were upset but it got them to the finals and the cup.
Jim if you were ever to take your shot the time is now.
Win the central or get the wild card & go make some noise
I've been bleeding double blue Cubbies & NY Rangers
The Orioles wouldn't make a trade when Gallagher was included...
How is Hendry supposed to make that trade now with Pie in the minors and no Gallagher? And the Orioles don’t seem to be sellers—they are trying to hang on to their core for next year.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Your post
almost made me fall off my chair with laughter.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions
You might be laughing now
But better than crying in August and September
Its right around the corner and the rest of the NL is on our heals
I've been bleeding double blue Cubbies & NY Rangers
That's "heels"
And it’s been like that all season.
For every game you can cite like today’s I can cite the one vs. Colorado in which the Cubs trailed 8-1 and had no business winning. Those things tend to even out.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
The Brewers & Mets are having their run now
You have Philly, Florida & Cards in the area
Only 3 of these 6 teams are moving on.
We want the Cubs to be one of them
I've been bleeding double blue Cubbies & NY Rangers
I'd rather slump in July
than september.
’’If somebody had told me we were going to lose Soriano for eight weeks, lose [Carlos] Zambrano and Kerry Wood for a couple of weeks apiece, and then at the same time lose [Reed] Johnson, and then when we played the American League not have a DH [then-injured Daryle Ward], and be in first place by two games, I’d tell you we were pretty fortunate.’’ Lou Piniella (7/23/08)
by drewishdrewid on Jul 25, 2008 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions
He might be referring to the fact that...
DWard is 4-31 as a PH this year.
Nobody cares about your fantasy league team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 25, 2008 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Hell
It was a rant, but this team has to adjust now.
They have player great baseball at times this season and at times you shake your head.
Funny when you get to the last weeks of the season how games like this past week, the last 2 in Pittsburgh come back to bite you in the ass.
I've been bleeding double blue Cubbies & NY Rangers
Did you forget all the walks?
I believe there have been 8 or 9 pinch walks from Ward.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Agree again
But he has to hit & drive in runs as well
I've been bleeding double blue Cubbies & NY Rangers
Ward still has value
Pinch-hitting isn’t easy. Ward historically has been good at it, plus he isn’t afraid to bat with two strikes on him. Ward’s plate discipline is above average.
You can point to a few problem areas on this team, but Daryle Ward isn’t among them.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions
disagree somewhat
4 – 31 as PH 8 Walks
12 for 40 OBP ???
how many RBI as PH
Thats his role.
Hell I like the guy dont get me wrong just need some production. After Spring training the skywas the limit for him. Yes just Spring training
I've been bleeding double blue Cubbies & NY Rangers
I like him, too..
.....but he’s been a dissapointment as a PH this year.
Strange that as a starter, he’s kicking butt: 13 for 26.
Nobody cares about your fantasy league team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 25, 2008 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, I forgot the walks...
...but as we discussed before, he’s down from his career numbers. OBP this year is .300, last 2 years have been .423 and .438
Nobody cares about your fantasy league team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 25, 2008 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't see any marketing of the "L" flag....
...unless some White Sox fans want to waste time & money. The “W” flag is fun, it’s positive. Fans have fun with it. It’s a good feeling. The “L” flag is a downer, it’s depressing…...it hangs over the park—it truly is symbolic.
Yes, we know they lost. Must we revel in that loss??
Keep looking ahead, positively. If you are negative, that’s what you will get.
If you are positive, that is also what you will bring on. Just don’t fly any flag after a loss.
I know people don’t think this is a big deal. It’s purely symbolic.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 25, 2008 8:51 PM CDT reply actions
If you're gonna "W," then you should "L," too
Nothing depressing to me about it. Just simply stating what happened.
I think you go with both, or you go with none. Just a “W” flag is no different than schools having 15 valedictorians because they don’t want to offend anybody, or Little League teams not keeping score because they don’t want anybody’s self-esteem damaged.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Bruce's Comment Is True - And Funny
A friend of mine has a niece in a “non competitive” soccer league where they don’t keep score. Only thing is, the kids themselves secretly do! LOL
Eat More Katsui
As Elvis Costello once said...
The “tradition” is to fly a W with a win and an L with a loss. Wrigley supposedly is a place that honors tradition so as EC once said, “I’ll wear it proudly.”
If then the L flag offends, lose less.
I prefer...
“It was a find idea at the time, but now it’s a brilliant mistake”.
Nah, not really, I don’t care one way or the other, I just wanted to get another EC lyric in. LOL.
Nobody cares about your fantasy league team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 25, 2008 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions
That's pretty good
“King of America” wasn’t a bad album, either, IIRC.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions
KOA
Is a terrific album. While I had heard Ray Brown’s bass playing on numerous jazz tunes, EC having Ray play on “Poisoned Rose” and “Eisenhower Blues” and I became a Ray Brown fan. Caught various Ray Brown trios thru the years at the Jazz Showcase. Ray was a fine musician and a true gentleman.
Didn't realize that
I’m always a sucker for a good bass player. (If only Peter Cetera would play bass and shut his mouth.) :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks for the link
What a way to go, after playing golf and before performing. Something to shoot for, I guess. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Tradition also means
Day baseball only. That, thankfully, has passed on. (And wouldn’t it have been great if the Cubs could have played a NIGHT game today? The team would have been a bit more rested. But, the team is restricted to a certain # of night games. )I guess I am outnumbered, even by southsiders. That’s OK, I respect that.
I want NEW traditions on the North side. (I think Dallas Green said that in 1982, didn’t he?)
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 25, 2008 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd prefer they play
all day games, actually.
’’If somebody had told me we were going to lose Soriano for eight weeks, lose [Carlos] Zambrano and Kerry Wood for a couple of weeks apiece, and then at the same time lose [Reed] Johnson, and then when we played the American League not have a DH [then-injured Daryle Ward], and be in first place by two games, I’d tell you we were pretty fortunate.’’ Lou Piniella (7/23/08)
by drewishdrewid on Jul 25, 2008 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Night and Day
I don’t care if they play all day games or all night games. I don’t think it’s southsiders who are keeping the number night games restricted. Isn’t it the neighborhood who’s against more night games?
Anyway, the Cubs will end up getting their way and the number of night games will surely increase.
Doubt it.
30 games is almost half the schedule—a significant increase from the original agreement, which limited it to 18 (that expired after 2002).
I doubt you’ll see the city agree to any increase anytime soon.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I prefer the day game experience too
but must admit that the all-day schedule becomes a disadvantage for the Cubs, particularly in the hot months.
In the 1970s, it seemed like baseball - other than the Cubs - was trending to three things the Cubs didn’t have: night games on artificial surfaces in bland multipurpose stadiums. The trends have reversed back the Cubs’ way on two out of three of those.
Clarification please...
Are you saying that flying the “L” flag depresses you? or depresses Cubs fans in general?
I can’t speak for your well-being, but i think you give the Cubs fans too little credit.
Granted a lot of fans live and die on seemingly every pitch, and then continue that heaven or hell experience after the game whether it be at home, in a bar, or here on BCB. But I don’t know anyone – and I’m having a real hard time even just picturing someone – who walks along Waveland or Sheffield long after the game, looks up at the L flag fluttering the breeze and all of a sudden experiences a heavy heart, a wistful sigh, and the weight of a hundred years on their shoulders as their feet start dragging and their pace lessens…
If someone is going to get depressed after a loss (and judging by what I read in here after some of our recent not-so-great games, there’s a few of you), then I highly doubt the L flag has anything to do with that. You were depressed well before they hoisted the flag.
It’s a flag with a letter on it. It’s just a communication vehicle. An antiquated one, but a communication vehicle nonetheless. that’s all.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
We have plenty of 21st Century communications vehicles.
As I said, this is a purely symbolic action….a ‘refuse to lose’ concept. ‘Losing has no home at Wrigley Field’ idea.
I know this means nothing at all, I realize that. The “L” flag doesn’t depress me. But WHAT is the purpose of it? This isn’t 1935, come on. You may as well sell “L” flags for the fans to hold up after losses. Why not? It seems as if you sell one, you should sell the other.
Hell, the damn goat was paraded around the ballpark a few years ago, for fun. and we all know there’s no freakin’ curse.
And this has nothing to do with an ‘everybody wins’ grade school concept. I guess I cannot express the symbolism of the “L” flag and that’s my fault.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 25, 2008 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Again..
... if it’s an antiquated concept, then why not do away with the “W” flag, too? After all, people can find out about a win just as well as a loss.
And why not dump the standing flags, too? Those are in the papers and on the internets.
Flying the flag is a 70-year tradition. Dumping HALF the tradition makes no sense.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I'm still confused...
...are they going to continue to fly the L flag? Or just drop the L and continue with the W?
And does ANYBODY know where to get a L flag? If they are going to stop flying them, I want one to pair with my W flag so when I get my flagpole installed, I can keep tradition…
Dan
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
Dump 'em both or keep 'em both...
But you can’t have one without the other…
Let my ashes blow in a beautiful snow from the prevailing 30 mile an hour southwest wind...
When my last remains go flying over the left field wall, I'll bid the bleacher bums adieu,
And I will come to my final resting place, out on Waveland Avenue. --Steve Goodman
At Least Howry Ain't Todd Jones
One strike away from victory, then a single and a Dye HR.
Say what you will about Lou being overrated and stubborn but Jim Leyland has him beat by eleventy billion miles.
Eat More Katsui
Bullpen Usage
Closer: Wood
Set Up: Marmol
“2nd Set Up” (7th inn): Combination of Eyre/Cotts/Guadin
Long Relievers/Mop Up: Marshall, Shark, Lieber or Wuertz
Could Lou work with that? If we do DFA Howry, which I think we should, it would take Lou to have more confidence in that “2nd set up” group. I think Cotts has earned that confidence, Eyre has had stretches of excellence, and I still think Guadin is someone that is going to do well for us if used properly. That combo has got to be better than what Howry’s given us this year.
Nobody cares about your fantasy league team
Just got in from the game and I wanted to weigh in...
first off, from where we were sitting (upper deck box-third base line) it looked like Soriano was in a “home run trot” jog when he was out at the plate on Lee’s single. Did anyone else notice that? Is he still afraid to turn on the jets full speed? It sure looked like it from my angle-when the ball was hit, and with two outs, I thought he’s score easily from second.
Second-we were thinking that maybe the Shark was letting the crowd cheers amp him up too much-like when he decided to challenge Hanley Ramirez rather than wasting one with an 0-2 count-if this is true, I hope he’ll learn to get better control of his emotions.
Third-Darryl Ward is basically a waste of space-a pinch hitting specialist who can’t hit (along with can’t run, can’t field)
Fourth-Howry scares me shitless whenever he comes in these days but, still, I can’t blame today’s loss on him. As has been mentioned already-our middle-of-the order offense has been pathetic-they seem to be letting the pressure get to then way too much. And, yes, a platoon situation with Fukodome looks like a necessity. Also. as far as Howry goes, right before he gave up the HR he got squeezed on a two strike pitch that looked pretty good from where we were-sometimes you just don’t get the breaks.
Bottom line-I’m not too worried about our pitching right now but the offense is another matter.
my guess is the Shark has lots of raw talent
but still needs to get those breaking balls over the plate more consistently. He needs 100-150 more games in the minors before he can be in the big show full time. I think the reason they are using him as a starter is to rush his improvement. In reality, he is a mid-year 2009 player on the staff full time, at best. Why rush him?
It is nice to give him a “taste” of the big leagues so he can see what he needs to do to improve, but I would not rush him to the big dance permanently.
THIS IS OUR CENTURY!!
Right.
Unfortunately, the Cubs have a tendency to rush players a bit too much. i have a feeling though that he’ll be back in Iowa as soon as Wood comes back.
by bluekoolaide on Jul 25, 2008 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Probably right
I suspect he’ll be back up in September.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions
That's the best news I've heard all day.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 25, 2008 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Mets & Stors
2nd and 3rd favorite teams this weekend.
I've been bleeding double blue Cubbies & NY Rangers
3-1 'stros
Berkman ends inning by being thrown out at second (trying to stretch RBI single into double). Idiot.
THIS IS OUR CENTURY!!
FYI for those posting about the Brewers/ Astros game....
There’s a FanPost discussing that game at this link.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Howry
seems to throw most all his pitches within 2-3 mph of each other. Since he really doesn’t have a solid breaking pitch, he’s an easy target when he isn’t hitting his spots. I’m amazed he doesn’t have more weapons in his armory but until he does, he’s a terrible choice for closer or setup man.
What had been a great bullpen is now below average. Wood is on DL, Marmol is in a funk, Howry is terrible and Wuertz and Hart are gone. That, more than anything, is our pitching dilemma now. Time for Hendry to make a big move.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
as for Marmol
it seems the book on him now is to take pitches. marmol is just missing his spots all the time. until he can locate his fastball where he wants it in HIS location, he is going to have trouble getting guys out in his old fashion.
Batters have adjusted to Marmol, he now needs to adjust.
THIS IS OUR CENTURY!!
Quite right
I think Lou is trying to teach him a lesson or two.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions
When the Brewers lose tonight,
We can make believe today did not happen
I've been bleeding double blue Cubbies & NY Rangers
DFA Howry? Please ...
Bench the man, work on him, but DFA him?
There are 8 reasons why we didn’t win today.
Look at the starting lineup of your Chicago Cubs.
As of late, they seem pretty good at the base clogging thing, but the bats have gotten ominously silent.
You don’t have to be a baseball scholar to figure out that if you have men on base and your best batters come up, you’d better be ready to drive them in. Hasn’t happened too often the past couple of weeks.
It’s starting to look like the Cubs who visited Arizona after they left Cincinnatti in October.
They’d better get their act together. While Howry is starting to seem ineffective, there is the matter of the Offense needing to get Offensive .. and darn soon ..
That’s been the problem lately. Had Reed Johnson’s grand slam not happened in Arizona, life would be likely a whole lot different for the Cubs right now in the stats. Howry promptly fed the Fish today when turned loose, but blast it, we should have had at least two or three more runs then we did.
Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!
+1
The pitching staff gave up 3 runs in 9 innings today—good enough for a decent offensive team to win. Today’s loss, like most of the losses since the ASB, can be pinned on the offense’s failure to execute. The pitchers have more than held up their end of the bargain.
Preach it
That’s why I’m not overly worried about any of this. The bats will come around, eventually. If the pitching were truly screwed up, it would be a problem.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 25, 2008 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions
OK, relax and here's some comedy relief
...courtesy of MASN/Nats color man Ray Knight. The Nats production staff got a bit esoteric and put up a graphic regarding tonight’s starter against the Dodgers—John Lannen. His road ERA is below 3, putting him in the top 5 of that category.
The graphic read - “Jack Kerouac,” when regarding to his ROAD stats…for the young’uns, Jack Kerouac’s “On The Road” was a groundbreaking book for the “Beat Generation,” published in 1957. It’s kind of a sharp reference - one I was surprised to see. I thought it to be clever.
Nitwit Ray Knight - pronounced his name - Ka-ROW-ack. Now, you KNOW Knight had no idea who Kerouac was, and what he did. Bob Carpenter, the Nats sharp PBP guy, immediately corrected him.
Knight, said, of course, “Kerouac!!”
The dumb jock had no idea.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 25, 2008 10:27 PM CDT reply actions
Funny.
and kudos to the Nats production staff for referencing a literary classic.
by bluekoolaide on Jul 25, 2008 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions
well.
Honestly, Al, I think this is the most negative thing I’ve seen you post this season. And the first 2/3 of the thread are… odd.
I don’t know what to do about Howry. I do agree that the bats need to light up like they did yesterday.
I think we get them tomorrow, and take the series.
’’If somebody had told me we were going to lose Soriano for eight weeks, lose [Carlos] Zambrano and Kerry Wood for a couple of weeks apiece, and then at the same time lose [Reed] Johnson, and then when we played the American League not have a DH [then-injured Daryle Ward], and be in first place by two games, I’d tell you we were pretty fortunate.’’ Lou Piniella (7/23/08)
I think if they get the bats going it
will be hard to stop this team.
Carlos Zambrano and Rich Harden. Now that's a pair of Aces.
Totally agree.
I’m not worried much about the pitching. If the offense plays up to it’s capability, I think the team will be in it to the end.
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
by Bump Bailey on Jul 25, 2008 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Which I also wrote.
The focus of the piece was Howry. But yes, this team has to hit, especially the middle of the order guys who were silent yesterday.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Right now
I’d almost trust the middle of the order guys to pitch better than Howry (and Howry to come up with a clutch hit better than the middle order guys). Almost.
Wow Al....
Thank you for saying that… I never thought you would.
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
Off to the game, first time in the bleachers this year
"This is why Major League Baseball does not need instant replay, because then every single play will then be reviewed." -- Joe Morgan, 5/18/08, referring to an umpire ruling a Carlos Delgado homerun foul when replays showed it hit the foul pole.
Have a good time today
Bring home a victory!
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermatrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Jul 26, 2008 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions
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