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Sweet! -- Cubs 2, Cardinals 1

It was really considerate of the city of St. Louis to shoot off fireworks for the Cubs' 2-1 win over the Cardinals, wasn't it?

Just as Kerry Wood was finishing off the victory, the grand finale of the downtown St. Louis 4th of July fireworks show splashed across the sky -- you could hear the "booms" loudly on TV, so I can only imagine how loud they must have been at Busch Stadium. For more firsthand information from St. Louis, see 08Cubs' FanPost, containing a short recap and photos from an excellent lower box seat (how'd you score that one, anyway?).

Everything went right last night... yes, everything. Carlos Zambrano threw six solid innings, going 87 pitches (Lou had said he'd be limited to 85-90, and despite batting in the top of the 7th and having a rather animated discussion with Lou in the dugout, Z was lifted to start the 7th) and allowing two walks and four singles, two of which were infield dribblers. Z was apparently "livid" (a quote from an article whose online link I cannot find right now) when they told him he was going on the DL, because he felt he didn't need the two weeks off. The team treaded water (losing one game off its division lead) during that time, but clearly, Z is fine, and he has pitched some of his best games in St. Louis. Last night was no exception, and his ninth win of the season keeps him in the running for an All-Star spot. He seemed focused and not too over-the-top; he threw strikes and wasn't trying to make up for the two weeks off all in one night.

Bob Howry, Neal Cotts and Kerry Wood all did their jobs last night -- I was especially pleased with Howry, even though he gave up the solo HR to Albert Pujols, because he got five outs on sixteen pitches. If Howry can throw this way every time out, there will be less pressure on Carlos Marmol. Cotts did the job he was asked to do -- retire one lefthanded hitter, Rick Ankiel.

One of the reasons I really enjoy watching Wood pitch is that he works quickly. He'll get the ball back and be ready to throw right away, and that keeps fielders ready, keeps the pace of the game at HIS pace, and I think is one of the many reasons he's been so successful. The WGN speed meter had him at 96-97 MPH. Second in the NL in saves, Wood should also be an All-Star selection. We'll find out on Sunday. Incidentally, and maybe this sounds like a homer comment, but Troy Glaus' histrionics when he was called out on strikes by plate umpire Ted Barrett seemed a little over the top and I'm surprised he wasn't ejected. The pitches were close, but on TV at least, appeared to be strikes.

The Cub offense wasn't great yesterday, but the two solo HR by Kosuke Fukudome (who had a terrific at-bat before slicing the ball into the RF seats) and Geovany Soto (who had three hits and nearly hit two HR off Braden Looper) were enough. Say, do you do this? If the Cubs lose, I switch the TV off right after the last out. When they win, I'll leave it on for a while to savor it.

Finally, a tip o' the BCB cap to Cardinals fans, who gave Jim Edmonds a long, warm standing ovation on his first at-bat last night. This is, I think, what distinguishes the Cub/Cardinal rivalry from, say, the Yankee/Red Sox rivalry. For me, at least, it is a healthy respect for the other team and for the long rivalry between the two teams -- and there really is nothing better than a pennant race between the Cubs and Cardinals (especially when the Cubs come out on top). Did Red Sox fans welcome Johnny Damon back in Yankee pinstripes? I doubt it. Those people seem to really hate each other. I'd like to think Cubs and Cardinals fans are better than that.

That said, nice win. Go get 'em again today.

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uh where is everyrone

Its been almost 10 minutes and no one has jumped on to yell FIRST or anything.

by ballstitch on Jul 5, 2008 8:17 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

still asleep maybe

I loved how you could hear the Cubs fan last night!

"We have a pretty strong belief that we are going to win those types of games. It's our confidence. "--Cubs pitcher Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 5, 2008 10:39 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Cardinal Fans Were Classy

to recognize Jimmy the way they did, and I have no problem with him doffing his helmet as a show of appreciation. That said, check the game threads on Viva El Birdos to see the dark underbelly of said fans. The Glaus at-bat did not go unnoticed, shall we say? Heh heh.

I have utter and complete confidence in Wood after watching him pitch under what can only be described as unusual circumstances last night. I thought he would be well-suited to the closer’s role, but I did not envision the dominance he has shown.

A great start to the series. Now let’s win one of these things on the road for once, shall we boys?

"Whoo, boy! Next time around, bring me back my stomach!" -Jack Brickhouse

by Goodie1969 on Jul 5, 2008 8:21 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

I hated Jim Edmonds as much as any player in baseball but a good friend, a Cardinal fan, told me you’ll love him if he starts hitting. Well, not exactly love, but I’m warming to him. It was extremely nice what happened to Edmonds last night, I would guess even he was surprised. Now that is over, I expect big things today!

As far as the strikeout on Glaus. I think home plate umpire Barrett did one better than throw him out. He called him out on that low outside corner after Glaus showed him up. Much classier move by an umpire than to take off his mask, stare him down and invite a showdown. Just send the message that if you show me up I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to the pitcher.

Awesome game, let’s get today’s win too!

This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).

by mrcubsfan on Jul 5, 2008 8:55 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I kinda got that feeling too

After Woody got that first call on the corner (when Glaus began heading to first) I noticed some choice words coming from Mr. Glaus. As Bob Costas used to say, “A Lip-Reader’s Delight!” Woody showed some real stones going back there, and I agree totally that Barrett sent a message to Glaus there. Seems like LaRussa got the message too, because he didn’t even argue.

"Whoo, boy! Next time around, bring me back my stomach!" -Jack Brickhouse

by Goodie1969 on Jul 5, 2008 9:16 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good to Cubs back in form

We operated as a tight, efficient team last night. Dome’s homer in the first set the tone and gave Z room to relax a bit. Soto sure has the stuff and I hope that he equals or betters Billy Williams rookie year. And Kerry’s eagle eyes as he’s preparing his pitch? Fearsome!

It’s going to be a great series and I can’t wait to join the fun for (finally!) this afternoon’s game.

Go Cubs!

We never give up -- Aramis Ramirez

by Emelie on Jul 5, 2008 8:28 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I turn the channel or turn the tv off within seconds of a loss

and leave it on for postgame comments when they win too. It is also nice to watch sportscenter or listen to the radio scores when they win. I don’t really let losses get me down, I just pay less attention. Great game last night, go get em today!

by LT on Jul 5, 2008 8:37 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Savoring the victory

Not only do I leave the TV on, but I make sure to get up early to watch the highlights on Sportscenter the next morning. When the Cubs lose, I tend to avoid ESPN, sports websites, etc.

by KWFaris on Jul 5, 2008 8:38 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How Did I Get the Seat?

That’s what the Cardinals fan next to me wanted to know! (Online right at the onsale, actually.)

Al, you’re right about the different nature of this rivalry. But I can never remember taking so much ribbing in a road city without even having a jersey or over-the-top Cubs gear on as I did yesterday, even in St. Louis. By sheer reflex, I stood up when Glaus struck out and motioned him energetically toward the dugout steps. A few seconds later, I wondered whether that might have led to a brawl at a Yankees-Red Sox game.

Anyway, here’s another photo – of D Lee making a catch closeby on Glaus’s foulout. I’ll post a couple more in my fanpost as well.

Let’s go Ted Lilly!

by 08Cubs on Jul 5, 2008 8:40 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thanks for the pix

you’ve got a good eye and really captured the game well.

We never give up -- Aramis Ramirez

by Emelie on Jul 5, 2008 8:44 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

great pics.

can’t wait until you post more of them!!

"We have a pretty strong belief that we are going to win those types of games. It's our confidence. "--Cubs pitcher Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 5, 2008 10:47 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, you do that to a home team player in Boston or NY

And fans would immediately tell you to sit down and shut up.

Great pictures, BTW.

by Fraggin Judge on Jul 5, 2008 11:15 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Something about the Cardinals brings out the best

in the Cubs. Even in the musty-Dusty days, we seem to play alert and good ball against these RedBirds (think ‘06).

I do think a strong series this weekend might just do the trick to kick-start our “road-confidence,” but let’s just start with a good game by Lilly tonight.

GO CUBS!!

THIS IS OUR CENTURY!!

by LAcarl519 on Jul 5, 2008 8:52 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great Game last night.....

Z was awsome. My wife loved the shots of Z, Lou and Larry arguing about him coming out of the game…My worst worry was that I would run out of pause time on the DVR because the fireworks show we viewed from the ‘upper deck’ of our yard was late…..but it was, as always, spectacular!! Kerry looks so intense, yet relaxed when the game is on the line….

Today, I get cartoon Cubs, as our Fox station is showing Yanks – RedSox….grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I hope everyone had a great 4th!!

by crazymountain on Jul 5, 2008 8:53 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Glaus shouldn't have been surprised....

The way he reacted to that 2nd strike was showing up the umpire. The next pitch was at exactly the same place. Did he really expect the umpire to call THAT one a ball after his theatrics? Really surprising from a veteran major leaguer, but then again, I know nothing about Troy Glaus.

Nice outing by the pen. Howry pitched great and at least had Pujols up in the perfect situation-—nobody on. Great strikeout by Cotts. I have to believe he’s gotta come through the 2nd half if Marmol continues to struggle. Wood was lights out. That hit by Molina was a fluke—-both of his hits were.

Nobody cares about your fantasy league team

by carmen_fanzone on Jul 5, 2008 8:54 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From a Cards fan...

I think the biggest problem for the Cards fans was how the ump had a beef to pick with Glaus. If an umpire feels that he has to prove himself by making another bad call (strike three) to teach Glaus a lesson, that is just ridiculous. Toss Glaus if you don’t like what he did, but a strike is a strike, and should never change.

by NorseKaiser on Jul 5, 2008 1:13 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A reminder about Damon

When he returned to Fenway Red-Sox fans dropped dollar bills onto him in the outfield. I also think they chanted “sell-out”. Could be wrong about the chant though…

by ak123 on Jul 5, 2008 9:03 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Another reminder...

Damon was a free agent and signed with the Yankees. Edmonds was traded to another team and we picked him up off the scrap heap.

Nobody cares about your fantasy league team

by carmen_fanzone on Jul 5, 2008 9:42 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

good point

Boston also had an offer on the table to Damon. I think the Difference was like 3 mil. I’d call him a sell out too if I was a BoSox fan. Imagine Ramirez signing a free agent deal with the Cards when we had a comperable offer on the table.

by BradB311 on Jul 5, 2008 10:01 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The dollar bills

were in Texas when A-Rod made his return as a Yankee. Damon received a loud standing ovation in his first at bat at Fenway as a Yankee, and has been loudly booed ever since.

For your information, the Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint.

by Less is Walrond on Jul 5, 2008 10:06 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sign At Fenway

When Damon first returned as a Yankee:

“Looks Like Jesus, Acts Like Judas, Throws Like Mary”.

Eat More Katsui

by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 10:31 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Damon

I think Damon left Boston because the Red Sox offered him a three-year while the Yankees offered hin four-years at a comparable salary.

"Earthly fame is naught but a breath of wind, which now comes hence and now comes thence, changing its name because it changes quarter." -- Dante, Purgatorio, Canto XI

by sweetswinger on Jul 5, 2008 10:57 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, you're right. They still call him "Johnny Demon."

The difference is not only the hate between those two teams. As carmen_fanzone pointed out, Edmonds was traded while Damon left as a free agent.

by Fraggin Judge on Jul 5, 2008 11:17 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True enough.

Still, Damon was a key part of a Red Sox championship team. You’d think they would have cut him a little slack for that, as they did with Derek Lowe.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 5, 2008 11:33 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True enough.

Still, Damon was a key part of a Red Sox championship team. You’d think they would have cut him a little slack for that, as they did with Derek Lowe.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 5, 2008 11:34 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager

by northsider on Jul 5, 2008 3:52 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

With a Cubs win and Brewers win,

the Cards will find themselves in a virtual tie after today. I know the Cards won’t go away easily but this could signal the start of a new chase with the Brewers hot on our heels and the Cardinals chasing them. Somehow I would rather have the Brewers start losing because they really bug me with their lineup. I guess we just have to take care of our business and not worry about the rest.

This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).

by mrcubsfan on Jul 5, 2008 9:24 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let's focus on the Cardinals this weekend... and take of that first.

I was dreaming of a sweep last night… that would be HUGE.

I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008

by SackMan on Jul 5, 2008 9:30 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed. We can't control what the Suds do.

Let’s just get the Lilly game in the win column and really put the pressure on these RedBirds.

THIS IS OUR CENTURY!!

by LAcarl519 on Jul 5, 2008 11:12 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just take care of business and let the rest fall where it falls. If the cubs start worrying about the brewers, wild card, etc, that’s when you start losing. Just focus on today(tonight for me), win and then worry about the rest later. Nice to see the bullpen was able to make 2 runs hold up. Don’t like howry giving up a run in such a close game, but at least the damage was one run.

by nmcubsfan on Jul 5, 2008 9:31 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If the Cubs lose, I switch the TV off right after the last out. When they win, I’ll leave it on for a while to savor it.

Ditto. I don’t even watch Baseball Tonight or listen to Cubscast on days when the Cubs lose.

Waste no tears on me. I didn't come along too early. I was right on time. - Buck O'Neil

by gewurztraminer on Jul 5, 2008 9:35 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I also turn the TV off immediately when the Cubs lose, sometimes before the end of the game I’ve had enough. But when they when I watch everything. I get so disappointed when the games aren’t on WGN and they don’t show the fans singing. Really love that 10th inning.

by mlern on Jul 5, 2008 9:40 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

check out ...

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/ reacp. He says that the reason that the Cards lost was because of an inconsistent strike zone. Do any of you agree?

Great win last night… let’s do it again today!

The 100th time has GOT to be a charm...

by cubswgnrocks on Jul 5, 2008 9:42 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I read some of that earlier

What a long post to say they were robbed by the ump. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

by LT on Jul 5, 2008 9:43 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That poster...

badly needs an editor.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 5, 2008 10:02 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No

I didn’t watch the whole game but to say it was the “worst umpire performance ever” (paraphrased) based on two ABs with a questionable strike zone is silly. I wasn’t paying attention to the balls called on 1-2 and 2-2 to Soto so I can’t comment on those, but to be honest, the two pitches to Glaus were definitely balls. They didn’t appear to be strikes and weren’t strikes so I dunno what Al is talking about there. Soto set up on the outside corner and reached out to catch the pitch. Glaus had a legitimate beef (although at least the 2nd pitch was consistent so he shouldn’t have been surprised). But that surely didn’t cost them the game.

by grifdog on Jul 5, 2008 9:50 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Same thing about leaving the TV on after wins

and doing something, anything, else after a loss. I’m even less inclined to watch ANY replays, save catching a Cardinal or Brewer score.

I’d be interested to see the ratings drop for the 10th Inning Show after a loss as opposed to a win.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 10:14 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cardinal fan here

I am not one to say the ump EVER cost a team a game. I don’t even care that Glaus struck out. There is no way to know if he would have scored or not. The only problem I have is with the Soto at bat. If those pitches were strikes to Glaus then the definitely were to Soto. And the one thing I do know is that did make a difference. If Glaus is out on strikes the Soto is as well. NO HOMERUN = TIE GAME.

The good news is there is a lot of baseball left to go, most important, todays game.
Best of luck to you guys at the BCB, but I think our redbirds are going to even this series up (that way I don’t have to see any cubs fans carrying brooms when I go to the game on Sunday).

by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 5, 2008 10:16 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you just said

that the ump cost you the game, no matter what you said in your first sentence.

But it’s a ridiculous argument anyway.

It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.

by Josh77 on Jul 5, 2008 10:22 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I said the ump made a bad call, that's it

One run wasn’t going to win that game, so we still needed to find another way. Last time I check 1-1 can’t win a game. We still can’t know the outcome. Knowing our bullpen the cubs still would have a an excellent chance to win. Not trying to piss anybody off, but if it was the other way around I bet this blog would have some complaints about the umpire.

by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 5, 2008 10:28 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, we probably would be upset.

But I’d be more upset the team didn’t do something with the other 26 outs at their disposal.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 10:30 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agree

We have to find another way to win. I tip my hat to the cubs for the win. Soto got a chance and took full advantage of it. That is how you win close games. If we were going to win we had to take advantage of the cubs one mistake. We got a break when Theriot missed the ball on the botched hit and run. with one out and our #2 and #3 hitter up we HAVE to find a way to score him to beat good teams/good pitching.

by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 5, 2008 10:40 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Leaving runners in scoring position on the bags always is a killer.

Especially in a one-run game. Trust me, we’ve had our share this year.

I think one of the standout moments was Z going after Pujols with a man on second, first open, and two outs. That was an incredibly gutsy call that paid off.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 10:49 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

That is a big decision. Funny thing is, watching Z pitch against us the past few years I have a feeling Lou could have told him to walk him and Z pitch to him anyway. That is the sign of a winner. He wants to show his best stuff in the most important situations. I just wish our winner (Pujols) would have came out on top.

by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 5, 2008 10:56 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cards Role Players

It’s amazing how you guys find these role players from Skip Schumacher to Joe McEwing year after year. Who’s heard of these guys? Why don’t they continue to do as well when they move onto another club? Does LaRussa have a degree in the dark arts or what?

Eat More Katsui

by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 10:59 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Darth LaRu.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 11:02 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

HAHAHA

aided by the Grand Moff Duncan.

Eat More Katsui

by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 11:03 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It is a good job by LaRussa

But you have to admit, nobody thought Soto would be anything close to what he is. Talk about a career minor leaguer who figured it out last year and now has erupted at the big league leve.

by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 5, 2008 11:03 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He came in on fire late last year

and has just continued. He definitely deserves the All Star bid and may nab ROTY.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 11:07 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not so surprising about Soto...

Nobody cares about your fantasy league team

by carmen_fanzone on Jul 5, 2008 11:17 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Player of the year at AAA in his league.

And a huge September in the majors, earning playing time.

by Fraggin Judge on Jul 5, 2008 11:20 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And, with Soto

his catching and handling of the staff here has been nothing short of remarkable. His hitting is a great bonus.

by crazymountain on Jul 5, 2008 11:21 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No Kidding....

And the cast offs that Duncan turns into great pitchers…...I think Duncan should go to the HOF. What he does (and has done for about 25 years) with pitchers is the stuff of legend. I wish we had him.

by crazymountain on Jul 5, 2008 11:19 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No kidding.

If Lou ordered Carlos to unintentionally intentionally walk him, Z would flirt as much as possible with the corners. It’s funny, because no matter how much Pujols scares me anytime he steps in the box, I feel so confident with Zambrano in there.

Here’s hoping a ton of brooms greet you on Sunday. ;)

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 11:01 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OUCH

Nothing would be worse then seeing a bunch of blue shirts with brooms on Sunday. Of course if we win on Sunday there would be a lot of broke broomsticks laying around the stadium. But, I would feel alot better winning 2 of 3. I wish we were seeing Marquis instead of Lilly!!

by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 5, 2008 11:19 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That makes one of us.

:D

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 11:20 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wish we were seeing Marquis also.....

pitching in this series…..AS A CARDINAL!!!!!

by crazymountain on Jul 5, 2008 11:23 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+trade

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 11:24 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

trade okay

you can have adam kennedy and Chris Duncan for Marquis and 5 ash bats. (NO maple bats please, we can’t afford any more injured players)

by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 5, 2008 11:25 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just wanted to say...

... thanks to you, hoofhearted, for coming here and having some GOOD discussions about this rivalry and about these games without it degenerating.

This is what I mean when I say this is a great rivalry with respect on both sides.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 5, 2008 11:38 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The other thing to consider is

how Howry would have pitched Pujols with a 1-0 lead? A non intentional walk might have been in order instead of going after him.

by LT on Jul 5, 2008 11:03 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 11:08 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Redbird fan: let me tell you how many games we have had awful calls

at first go against us that have cost the Cubs a run in tight games. $*it happens. Good teams will fight through it, even if they lose games on bad calls, they will bounce back.

I do agree that ump strike zones have been getting more inconsistent, not less. Very frustrating for hitters.

THIS IS OUR CENTURY!!

by LAcarl519 on Jul 5, 2008 11:21 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

Well said. I’d also be upset that the batter was not protecting that outside corner in that count, especially given the call the umpire had made mere moments before.

"Whoo, boy! Next time around, bring me back my stomach!" -Jack Brickhouse

by Goodie1969 on Jul 5, 2008 10:51 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You need to understand

it is a ridiculous argument when you make it and a valid one when we make it.;-P.

Here’s the scoop, if you score enough runs, take advantage of all your opportunities then you don’t have to worry about close calls. Good teams win the close ones. I hope the Cubs sweep, but I know that the Cards are a better team than they appear on paper and they have a good manager. I look forward to a good series.

When I go to a Cubs-Cards game I enjoy the friendly rivalry with the Cards fans. Most of them are good people.

Baseball is too much of a sport to be a business and too much of a business to be a sport.
William Wrigley Jr

by bubbamike the one and only on Jul 5, 2008 11:05 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The problem is, you're calling balls and strikes off a TV screen.

Because of parallax, you don’t have an accurate view of the strike zone, and so you really don’t know if those were balls or strikes.

by cwyers on Jul 5, 2008 10:23 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the t.v. angle doesn't move

I don’t care if it was a ball or strike, but the pitches to Soto and Glaus were in the same spot. So it can’t be a ball to one and a strike to the other.

by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 5, 2008 10:30 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Looking at Gameday, the pitches to Soto were a bit lower than the pitches to Glaus.

And they were right around the knees of the animated figure, so a little bit of height could make a difference as to whether they were out of the zone.

by cwyers on Jul 5, 2008 10:36 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You trust Gameday over a TV screen?

Not trying to be a wise-ass – I’m just wondering if you know more about how Gameday works. Is there some different technology Gameday is using to determine pitch location or is it also dependent on the whims of a camera angle.

I didn’t see the at-bat in question, but logic tells me that hoofhearted,pujols? (interesting user name – care to share the story behind it?) has a point about consistency. If pitches were in same spot, they should both be balls or both be strikes. Of course, that’s a big if…

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jul 5, 2008 11:07 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah.

ESPN’s K-Zone uses it as well. (Fox Sports Net has a similar product which does NOT use Sportsvision’s technology, and I have concerns about it.)

For any individual pitch, there are errors and inconsistencies in the Gameday data that you have to worry about. In aggregate it’s wonderful stuff.

by cwyers on Jul 5, 2008 11:29 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Handling 3-4-5 Was The Key

First off, I happen to believe that a game CAN be decided on one call or one play. Take your pick from the 2003 NLCS or the 1985 World Series.

But still, I think the reason the Cubs won (or Cards lost) is was because Pujols was kept to just a solo HR and infield single and Ankiel-Glaus were hitless. I was literally on the edge of my seat during their at-bats, hoping Z wouldn’t get too excited.

Eat More Katsui

by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 10:38 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I get your main point, but disagree about 2003

If Moises doesn’t have a hissy, if Prior gets a batter out, if Gonzalez picks up a routine double-play ball, if Sosa hits the cutoff man. No one play did it—although 95% of the baseball world outside of Cubs fans point to a foul ball. Most Cubs fans point to the grounder. But there were a lot of things that went wrong, where ANY ONE of them could have prevented the meltdown.

by Shanghai Badger on Jul 5, 2008 10:44 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good Points

I would definitely not say “you’re wrong” to you or anyone else of that opinion. Perhaps what I should have said was that one play can decide a game or series when the margin for error is the breadth of a hair.

2003: Cubs did themselves no favors by scoring only 3 runs through the 8th inning. And maybe Prior doesn’t walk Castillo and retires Pudge and Miggy if Dusty had removed him early in Game 2. Not sure if AGonz turns the DP but they at least get the 2nd out if he keeps his glove down.

1985: Can’t remember enough about the game to point out key moments when the Cards should have scored more runs, so I’ll let some of the St. Louis fans help me out here.

Eat More Katsui

by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 10:51 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Throw 1986 in there

I’m so very tired of Don Denkinger, Bill Buckner and Steve Bartman having their lives changed.

Hello, McFly? THERE WERE GAME 7’s each time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 5, 2008 11:03 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not only that, but in 1986 the game was tied

Boston had already squandered a 2-run lead with 2 outs and the bases empty before the infamous play.

by Shanghai Badger on Jul 5, 2008 11:05 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK Biff....

Excellent point. Not sure about the Cards but it’s worth noting that the Cubs and Red Sox had the lead at one point in those Game 7s. In both cases, better managing of the pitching would have changed the outcomes.

Eat More Katsui

by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 11:05 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well if Alou makes that catch

the pitching pattern changes, there is no DP in order so no rush to field and get a quick release to 2B for the DP, on and on, etc , etc….....It just shows that, no matter what happens, we do not know the outcome of ANY event in life in an “if only” scenario.

All that said, the Cubs imploded.

by crazymountain on Jul 5, 2008 11:29 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What he's saying

Is that the TV camera, which isn’t stereoscopic and which comes from almost directly behind the pitch, doesn’t give a very good idea of depth. The umpire has stereoscopic vision and is looking from above, so he has a better idea of how far along the ball is in its journey to the plate. From TV you get a great view of where the ball was caught, but it’s hard to tell on close pitches just where the ball was as it crossed the hitting area.

Google isn’t providing me with links to technical data on Pitch FX. I assume that even though it appears to give an X-Y location for every pitch it’s also tracking the Z, and that it has at least two cameras. Anyone know about this?

by aldimond on Jul 5, 2008 10:56 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's lack of depth AND a parallax shift.

PitchF/X uses multiple cameras and tracks the trajectory of the ball in flight. Sportsvision has done tests using a foam board target, and its accuracy is to within an inch. You can read a lot more about it here.

by cwyers on Jul 5, 2008 10:59 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Umps Must Hate That Stuff

Maybe that’s why they collectively have a chip on their shoulder the past couple years.

Eat More Katsui

by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 11:00 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In sports, especially baseball, or softball that I play, you never let the umps decide the game. When your at bat, you bat. If the ump is calling them strikes a mile off the plate, then it’s a mile off the plate, and you adjust. this woulda, coulda, shoulda stuff just tears me up. No offense, but the never Acquiece mentioned a good point. There are 27 outs in a baseball game, the glaus strikeout was one. There were still 26 chances to make something happen and your team didn’t do it. Bottom line, you don’t let the umps, or the strike zone, or the safe/out calls determine the game. You play, you hit, you field, and you take care of business. Balls/Strikes always has been, and always will be a judgement call. As much as we would like, we’re never going to have the view that the home plate ump has. MLB, gameday, the myriad camera angles that ESPN, WGN and all the networks use, will never compare to what the ump sees. So leaving it up to the ump, and watching close pitches go by, especially when you have two strikes is just bad batting. Either way, game over, let’s move on, and get them again tonight.

by nmcubsfan on Jul 5, 2008 10:39 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think hoofhearted is blaming the ump

And I am not calling you or anyone else specifically out with what follows:

Just because he/she is a fan of the other team, it doesn’t mean that the posts are making excuses. There is nothing wrong with pointing out what is perceived as an inconsistency. Some of the bitching that I see here about the umps during gamethreads is beyond Santo-eqsue, but it’s ok because clearly anytime a call goes against the Cubs, “we got screwed”.

I think hoofhearted is being gracious with the first post above, giving the Cubs credit. I’d hate to see civil discussions with fans of other teams not be possible just because they are fans of other teams.

by Shanghai Badger on Jul 5, 2008 10:49 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Polite Discourse Always Welcome

from the opposition. My opinion anyways!

Eat More Katsui

by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 10:55 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

We never give up -- Aramis Ramirez

by Emelie on Jul 5, 2008 10:55 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

I agree with your take on hoofhearted’s post. We’d do the same thing, and have, on several occasions.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jul 5, 2008 10:55 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank You

I enjoy these series because, IMO, cubs fans, in general, are educated baseball minds. Which is what I like. When the Cubs win I am pissed. When the cards lose I am pissed. When the cards lose to the cubs, well you get the point.

On a second note my T.V. was off .5 seconds after Luddy got thrown out. So I think Al’s post was right on with any loyal fan

by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 5, 2008 11:14 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly.

I remember watching earlier this year and my channel was changed just BEFORE Schumaker’s walkoff cleared the fence.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 11:17 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Confirming an earlier comment - Damon did get cheered by the BoSox fans his first game back

It was a pretty loud standing ovation if I recall. And after that, yep – he did get booed pretty strong the rest of the night. And probably every game since then. I remember reading the articles afterwards where Damon was very appreciative of the ovation and very agreeable to the boos thereafter. It made sense to him – he’s a Yankee now.

And it makes sense to me. First time back – a huge standing ovation and some LSA to a player whose actions and efforts are worthy of such. But after that…

Hey, he’s on the other side now. Treat him as you would any other member of your rival. If you’re the type of fan that boos, then go ahead and boo. If you mumble curses and rub shrunken chicken heads, by all means go for it. And if you’re the type who throws batteries, beer cups, and yells uncalled for epithets, then do that as well – the sooner you get tossed and banned, the better for the rest of us.

Finally – and obviously – the one caveat to the above is the situation when there’s a good chance you could be seeing him for the last time, i.e. Maddux earlier this year at Wrigley, Vizquel in Cleveland just recently, etc. then by all means, give him one more standing ovation, and some serious LSA!!!

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jul 5, 2008 10:55 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

Well said. . . and the flip side is, of course, who cares who Edmonds USED to play for? He’s on the Cubs now.

The only reason I was against it is, I thought he was done. I am happy to be proven wrong. Also never liked the “too cool for school act” and still don’t, but that’s got nothing to do with him being a Cardinal in the past.

by Shanghai Badger on Jul 5, 2008 11:03 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LaRu's Comments

Anyone think that TLR’s comments that “fine, then, we’ll pretend Edmonds never played here” was meant to rally the troops and/or take EdMo out of his game?

Eat More Katsui

by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 11:07 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, I do

I think TLR is a master at gamesmanship. We’ll see what kind of an effect it has. Edmonds had an off night, but there are two games to go.

by Shanghai Badger on Jul 5, 2008 11:10 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Precisely.

I don’t recall one person complaining solely because he was an ex-Cardinal/Cub killer. It was ALL about his perceived inability to produce. And I don’t think any of use have ever been so happy to be proven wrong.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 11:12 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Damon's first at bat at Fenway as a Yankee...

....they booed him for 15 seconds. Damon had said if he was acknowledged, he’d tip his hat. Apparently, he heard enough cheers to justify the tip of his hat, but most say the boos were way more than the cheers. Here’s a fan cam from youtube. You be the judge.

Nobody cares about your fantasy league team

by carmen_fanzone on Jul 5, 2008 11:10 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I heard both, but at least from where that fan was standing, the boos definitely sounded louder.

Sure looked like a lot of the crowd was applauding though. Also it’s possible the standing ovation part came during the lineup introductions instead of the first at-bat.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jul 5, 2008 11:19 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True enough...

.....you can see in the vid, too, that once he tips his hat the cheers grow louder. Pretty interesting stuff.

Nobody cares about your fantasy league team

by carmen_fanzone on Jul 5, 2008 11:45 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It has been nice chatting with you

I am going back over to the safe haven of Viva El Birdos. Hope some of you stop by to chat it up on our page.

by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 5, 2008 11:22 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We'll see...

Enjoy the game today and tomorrow. But not too much.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 11:25 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We could chip in

and buy him a nice big W flag.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 11:29 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We could give him Ernie Broglio back....

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jul 5, 2008 11:33 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not enough.

Probably have to slip him a crisp twenty on top.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 11:34 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for stopping in.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jul 5, 2008 11:33 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For LA folks:

today’s game is on Fox Sports Espanol (425 or 616 on DirecTV). So it looks like I have to sync the game between the DVR/TiVo and Pat & Ron on the Internet. Technology is a wonderful thing!

THIS IS OUR CENTURY!!

by LAcarl519 on Jul 5, 2008 11:38 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay, how do I find out if the NYY/BOS game or the Cubs game is gonna be on Fox in Kansas City??

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 5, 2008 11:42 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Check your local listings.

zap2it.com might tell you, if nothing else.

by cwyers on Jul 5, 2008 11:44 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

YES

That website worked. Cubbies it is!!

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 5, 2008 11:47 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would hope you would get the Cubs v Cards in KC...if not

...Fox has lost thier minds….which wouldnt surprise anyone I guess

by JB 23 on Jul 5, 2008 11:46 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Red Snots-Jankees in Seattle

if I had digital cable and the spanish option I would get Cubs-Cards. But I don’t.;-(

Baseball is too much of a sport to be a business and too much of a business to be a sport.
William Wrigley Jr

by bubbamike the one and only on Jul 5, 2008 11:55 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fox Sports website

has a little box in the corner where you enter your ZIP and it gives local sports coverage.

Or, go to your local Fox channel’s website and it’ll say there.

I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling, so why don't we just ignore each other til we go away.

by neverAcquiesce on Jul 5, 2008 11:47 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There's a link I sometimes post...

... that lists all the TV markets and what game they’re carrying. But it hasn’t been updated for this week’s games.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 5, 2008 11:59 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Got to watch the last outs on my phone with a Cards fan right next to me, so it was GREAT!

"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08

by drewishdrewid on Jul 5, 2008 12:20 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Silence

As my son and I walked out of the ballpark last night, I was amused by the silence. It was wonderful to hear nothing from the St. Louis people!

Ya gotta love a team with a shortstop named TheRiot ...

by StampMe on Jul 5, 2008 12:42 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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