Shopping for a Pitcher: The Hendry Files
by The E-Man on Jul 5, 2008 11:04 AM CDT
159 comments
It is an obvious conclusion that it will be difficult for the Cubs to go deep into the playoffs with the current starting rotation. Recently, they slipped back to 4th in the NL in team ERA, no doubt influenced by Demp's poor start against the Sox, and the recent bullpen implosions. Also, when the team falls into a hitting slump - as we have seen recently - a lock-down pitcher that can be a tough stopper is key.
This is not a terrific year to be shopping for a difference-making pitcher. However, as I see it, these are the Free Agents and disgruntled players that could be employees which our Jim Hendry is considering. Have at it! My subjective comments are next to each:
C.C. Sabathia - if the Brew acquires him, I will be sick to my stomach. So will Cubs hitters.
E. Bedard - has plenty of talent, and would be another strong lefty to throw at the Cards and Brew. However, reports are he is not a "team guy". Same was said about Kenny Lofton. Until we got him.
A.J. Burnett - Don't we already have pitchers with high ERA's, that allow plenty of HR's?
Gil Meche - He likes the smaller market. Hendry courted him once, and got Lilly instead. Very talented, but he'd probably be more happy where he is, or Pittsburgh.
Randy Wolf - Pitches well. One game out of six. Next...
Derek Lowe - at 36, he still has a mighty sinker that would be a terrific in Wrigley. We gave Coletti Maddux - maybe he'd return the favor? FA in 2009
Livan Hernandez - I was at Game 3 against the D-Backs. 'Nuf said.
Unfortunately for the Cubs - ain't much more out there this year.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
0 recs |
159 comments
Email
Print
Comments
Two words, if the above don't work.
Greg Maddux.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jul 5, 2008 11:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And you've seen Maddux's
stats away from Petco?
Heck, even in Petco, he’s a six inning pitcher.
We all love Maddog, but I don’t think he’s better than what we already have right now.
It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.
by Josh77 on Jul 5, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bring up again...
... because these two games skewed his road ERA: the game in Arizona (where he never pitches well) where he was asked to take one for the team and gave up nine earned runs in seven innings, and the game against the Cubs at Wrigley (obviously, if he’s a Cub he isn’t facing the Cub offense). Also, take out the game he just got hammered in Colorado, because the Cubs are done there this year.
Take those three out and his road ERA is 3.00. Not so bad now, is it?
Finally, the Cubs do have a pretty good bullpen. If Maddux comes and gives us six innings every time out, and can impart some wisdom to the rest of the staff, he’s worth it.
Remember, I said IF any of the above didn’t work.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jul 5, 2008 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al, please
I don’t know if you realize how you are sounding. I don’t mean to be disrespectful but… really. Before you wanted to take those two games, and now you also want to take out the game versus Colorado? How about you take out every game he’s pitched poorly in, then Maddux is the CY Young.
Really.
The reasons don’t make sense, and your adjustments even less. I already went into detail why so I won’t do it again. Say you want Maddux for his experience, career, intangibles, whatever, but don’t try to back up your arguments with stats. There are no stats that remotely say he is anything better than what the Cubs already have. And what the Cubs have, at least, has some upside.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Upside?
Do you want to win in 2011, or now?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jul 5, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hill, 2006
That’s upside. A young pitcher who may get better during the season. Gallagher or Marshall can get better during the season. Maddux may get better, but at this point, the chances of that happening are much lower than the younger guys.
You may think that he will pitch better in tougher situations because of his experience. I can live with that, even if I don’t agree. But that’s not what your saying. Your saying he has pitched better so far (since your saying he would improve the club) and no matter how you look at it, that’s just not true.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only one team in the NL is hitting worse than the Diamondbacks.
Colorado isn’t exactly an offensive juggernaught, either.
But let’s ignore the home/road splits for a second, and look at park-adjusted stats, like ERA+. His ERA+ on the year is 96; Jason Marquis is 94. (Gallagher’s is 101, further making me wonder how Teflon Marquis is.)
by cwyers on Jul 5, 2008 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and it probably wouldn't help matters...
...that going to the Cubs would mean a downgrade in the infield defense playing behind him. (Call it “the difference between Khalil Greene and Ryan Theriot.”)
by cwyers on Jul 5, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But, it would improve
the infield defense from the 1 position.
by The E-Man on Jul 5, 2008 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we get
Green along with Maddux?
It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.
by Josh77 on Jul 5, 2008 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frankly, My Dear
I bet that’s exactly what happens. Not sure yet if I want it to happen, but my size-36 gut tells me it’s gonna.
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Padres PAY to get rid of Maddux ?
I don’t think so. You may not believe this but Al wants him to come
more than I do but for different reasons. Unlike a lot of you I think
he is a major upgrade over Marquis or Gallagher but he seems content
to sit it out in San Diego and I am hoping for another year so let him stay
where he likes.
FYI is it just me or does every pitcher the Cubs might REALISTICALLY have
a shot at keep having bad starts ( Wolf , Maddux, Burnett, Padilla ( no one
mentions him much but I think he is out there) etc ?
We might just have to stay put. I still don’t get why anyone is pushing
Burnett. Hardly the worst choice but you really can’t saddle yourself
with ANOTHER 24 million over two years on a guy who is uneven and often
injured.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He will most likely opt-out
I would even bet on it. Just think the money and years that Silva got. He will not take the 2/24 unless he is injured.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good luck on that
If he either is not very good or gets injured both very reasonable
possibilities the Cubs munch on 24 million. That is far to high a risk
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
He can be average, or maybe even below average and still net a bigger contract than that. Unless he gets injured in the half a season you have him he will opt out. That’s the market for SP with good stuff.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
respectfully disagree
See what happened to Lohse this year ? If Burnett is not both
good and healthy he is not going to find anywhere near 12 million
a year he is owed and you are stuck with him. He is nowhere near
good enough for that risk. Last night he gave up 6 earned runs in
8 innings. Not paying 24 million PLUS this year for that.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the question remains.
If the Cubs DO acquire a starter, whoever it is, what do they do with Marquis? He’d suck in the bullpen. Do you just eat the contract and release him?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jul 5, 2008 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the whole issue
Maddux would probably not replace Marquis. He would replace Gallagher or Marshall. And a big no thanks to that.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Add
A better pitcher, say Sabathia or Harden, could replace Gallagher/Marquis and be an upgrade. Maddux, on the other hand, would make the team worse.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...but
do we have the prospects Beane would want for Harden? And, IIRC, Harden’s road splits are not great.
by The E-Man on Jul 5, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was just making a point
I wasn’t implying that the Cubs have the prospects or that they should even go afther Harden.
I’d rather the Cubs don’t do anythin than going for Maddux.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And like many of us has said previously
If the Cubs acquire Maddux and bump Marquis from the rotation, it would make some sense. However, is there really a chance of that happening?
That being said, I’m not even sure I would prefer Maddux over Marquis. Maddux may be entering the point of rapid deterioration that many players get to in the twilight of their careers and that would be scary.
And most of all, I wouldn’t give Maddux a single start in the postseason. I’d rather have Gallagher, Marshall or even Hill, if he can have a resemblance of his old self.
Trading for a guy with a 96 ERA+ to replace a guy with an ERA+ 94 would be defeating the purpose of making a trade, no? And that’s probably the best case scenario (replacing Marquis).
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al would probably argue that Maddux is an intangible upgrade...
...over Marquis, even if he’s tangibly the same pitcher. The problem is that Maddux would probably JOIN Marquis in the rotation, and he’s not as good a pitcher as Gallagher or Marshall at this point in his career.
by cwyers on Jul 5, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's basically what I've been trying to say (np)
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You two have a point.
I still think the intangibles are worth it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jul 5, 2008 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The more I look at the names/numbers on the list...
The more I ponder whether or not Hendry will be looking for an arm in the bullpen… Mahey or Fuentes perhaps. It might be nice to help our “pretty good bullpen” with another arm.
I think there are a number of folks out there pointing out the obvious that the Cubs can’t match the offers of other prospect-rich organizations for a key starting pitcher (feel free to debate). WIll there be a multi-team swap (Nomar trade) that Hendry will work towards or a straight up trade?
by socalicubsfan on Jul 5, 2008 11:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It is an excellent point.
Pitching trumps everything, now. We just do not have the prospects. Money, yes. Prospects, no.
Pie is presentable. E-Pat…we’ve seen him. Would YOU trade a MLB pitcher for him?
I had forgotten Fuentes. Yes – if Hendry can’t get one of the above – Fuentes could at least help the Cubs by allowing back end starters to only pitch 5 or 6 innings…
by The E-Man on Jul 5, 2008 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gut feeling
I believe if the Cubs go for anybody it would be Burnett.
If the Cubs include Vitters they could offer a package for Sabathia or Harden, but I think most of us here would not welcome that type of trade (and if the teams involved want MLB ready players (almost ready anyway) then the Cubs will have it very, very tough.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
- sigh -
I am kinda afraid of that as well. Although AJ pitched well against us in Toronto, as I state above, it appears as if what we have already is just as good.
Although, Jeff Weaver was one of two pitchers acquired at the deadline who helped their team get to, and then PITCH, in the WS. I heard this, this morning on Bruce Levine’s show.
Guess the other…
by The E-Man on Jul 5, 2008 12:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Burnett
The thing with Burnett is that he has the stuff that can dominate, and for that, you may be willing to take a chance. The chances of him having dominant starts in the playoffs are probably a lot higher than those for Gallgher/Marquis or even Lilly.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose it hinges
on what we’d have to give up. Muton, Cedeno, I’m fine with…
by The E-Man on Jul 5, 2008 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would take more than that, surely
That’s the nature of the beast when trading for a starting pitcher with upside or good stuff.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But would Gallagher or Marquis...
...ever even get the opportunity to pitch in a playoff game (barring an injury to one of the other starters)? IIRC, Burnett’s overall numbers are better than Lilly’s, but right now they seem very comparable. Assuming Sabathia is out of the question, I think shoring up the bullpen might be the way to go – especially in light of Marmol’s recent struggles.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 5, 2008 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bullpen.... yikes
I don’t know… I’d rather the Cubs go for bullpen help (if needed) from within.
As far as who starts… if a club wins the WS it’s probable they used a 4th starter at some point. And I’d like Burnett over Lilly in the playoffs, no doubt in my mind about that.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Weaver...
I read somewhere where the Indians just signed him – I think he was recently released by Mariners.
[heavy sigh as Ballhawk hangs his head in quiet frustration as realization finally sinks in that his Indians are toast for 2008…]
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jul 5, 2008 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dear Bud
Please allow cash deals and the trading of draft picks.
Sincerely,
CaliCub
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 12:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Buster on ESPN This Morning
is linking Randy Wolf to the Cubs. Don’t shoot the messenger…
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 12:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Randy Wolf freakin' sucks
We have Randy Wolf, his name’s Sean Marshall.
"I think Hendry still has a few years to serve on his 'grand larceny' sentence before he can shop in Pittsburgh again" - ballhawk
by NittanyCub on Jul 5, 2008 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey man...
He is a Pepperdine Wave (I went there)! Even though I’m Alum, I say quality BULLPEN help instead of Wolfie!
by socalicubsfan on Jul 5, 2008 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that their
MASCOT?! The “waves”?? Is there a surfboard in the Logo?
by The E-Man on Jul 5, 2008 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most Southern California schools have crap mascots/logo
UCSD is the home of the Tridents. Yes, not a person; couldn’t name it after Triton, but a spear used to hunt fish
UCSC Banana Slugs
UCSB Gauchos—the name for South American residents, that gets put for Santa Barbara,California.
UCLA Bruins—Knock-off from Berkeley.
UCI Anteaters(WTF?!)
Some weird stuff going on back home.
"I think Hendry still has a few years to serve on his 'grand larceny' sentence before he can shop in Pittsburgh again" - ballhawk
by NittanyCub on Jul 6, 2008 3:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
WOO!
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
by northsider on Jul 6, 2008 3:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Banana Slugs?
Really?
''Listen, losing Soriano is no box of chocolates.'' ~Lou Piniella
by JohnM on Jul 6, 2008 7:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aah! The "Enemy"
I’m a grad of Loyola Marymount. J/K, hope you stick around on the boards for a while. :-)
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obvious conclusion?
That’s an audacious statement. The Cubs would like another SP, but don’t need a starting pitcher. Rich HIll looks like he’s coming around, HE could actually be the other pitcher that we have after the break.
"I think Hendry still has a few years to serve on his 'grand larceny' sentence before he can shop in Pittsburgh again" - ballhawk
by NittanyCub on Jul 5, 2008 12:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It is my OPINION
my subjective opinion. Rich Hill is an enigma currently.
The NEED a starting pitcher. That is good. You are in the minority here in your opinion. Which is cool!
by The E-Man on Jul 5, 2008 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hill
The thing that gives me hope is Hill changed his delivery and had a good start.
Go Cubs
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jul 5, 2008 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been wanting Lowe...
But in that crappy NL West, I can’t see the Dodgers selling.
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
by SackMan on Jul 5, 2008 12:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
They are 1/2 game out
They are NOT selling , especially a starting pitcher.
We need to look elsewhere
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Lowe has been under the radar as far as rumors goes. He would be a great addition. Only problem is, like you mentioned, the West division is horrible and the Dodgers are right there to win the division.
So, Maddux or Burnett, I am not high on Burnett.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Jul 5, 2008 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dodgers To Get CC?
If the local papers and radio here are to be believed, then Sabathia to the Brewers isn’t necessarily a done deal.
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this has been kicked around a little, but apparently Harang could be gotten from the Reds for the right price.
That guy is a stud, its not his fault his team can’t score runs for him. Obviously the Reds would ask for an arm and both legs to get him, but I think its worth Hendry looking into.
Again the price would most likely be out of control, but one phone call can’t hurt.
Missouri Tigers 2008 Cotton Bowl Champs
by nji232 on Jul 5, 2008 12:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Trading within the division is a big big obstacle to overcome (np)
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would think Arroyo
might be an easier get.
by The E-Man on Jul 5, 2008 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arroyo can prolly be had for a sack of balls right now if somebody is willing to take him.
He is worse than Marquis.
Missouri Tigers 2008 Cotton Bowl Champs
by nji232 on Jul 5, 2008 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually = look
at his last three starts.
It appears as if he’s coming on…
by The E-Man on Jul 5, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arroyo is frustrating
Sure he looked good in his last two starts but three starts ago he gave up 10! runs in 1 inning. He is even less consistent that Marquis.
He also nearly ruined my fantasy team early in the year, so I have a bias against him.
But objectively…he still sucks
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
by El Borto on Jul 5, 2008 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
GRR
I was JUST typing that in about 3 starts ago. No fair
Seriously the guy is really uneven and no reason to believe he would
be much better than we have
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Normally I'd agree, but lately I'm starting to rethink that...
If you have a big FA-to-be that you can leverage to get some blue chip prospects, might not you be better off if you raided the pantry of a division rival? Sure you strengthen them for this year, but you would be weakening their farm system, and thus the big club in the coming years. Obviously, this thinking is predicated on the belief that said team would not be able to re-sign the FA-to-be.
Case in point – CC Sabathia. What if the Twins or Tigers farm system was stocked and you were reasonably sure (i.e. willing to stake your job on it) that CC would NOT re-sign with either one of them. You trade CC to one of them, throw in the towel on this year, and get some of their blue-chippers for the coming years. After this year, you’re stronger and they’re weaker. Sure, they’d get compensation picks, but you wouldn’t have done the deal in the first place if you weren’t convinced what you were getting in return wasn’t better than what you could get in the draft.
Bottom line, I wouldn’t be surprised if sometimes trading within a division is actually a consideration on the positive side.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jul 5, 2008 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
1st target A.J. Burnett, 2nd target Derrek Lowe
The Dodgers play in an awful division and can make the legitimate argument of having a solid shot to win that thing given the strength of their pitching. But….MAYBE they would have interest in moving free agent-to-be Lowe as way of adding a desperately needed option at shortstop (Furcal is out and will be a free agent next winter) as well as say, another outfielder?
Ronny Cedeno and Felix Pie for Derrek Lowe? Proven big game performer, durable and a sinkerball style that is very nice fit for Wrigley.
Pitching is KING. We don't add a frontline starting pitcher and a quality bullpen arm then this season will have yet another sad conclusion.
by MDBNIU on Jul 5, 2008 1:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I would make that trade in a heartbeat.
Missouri Tigers 2008 Cotton Bowl Champs
by nji232 on Jul 5, 2008 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
IS there such thing
as “half a heartbeat”?
If so – count me in, too.
I still think Pie will be a solid MLB player. All Star? Probably not/
by The E-Man on Jul 5, 2008 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok I know Colletti signed Jones and Pierre
to terrible contracts but he is not THAT dumb. Seriously Mike why do you keep suggesting
players who are just NOT going to be traded ( Lowe, Hudson) or traded beyond our means
to compete ( CC and Hardin as a VERY long shot). I mean heck I would like Ben Sheets
and he is going to be an FA and his team is 4 games beyond where the Dodgers are and has
two teams to climb over so they should be willing to trade right ?
Per above why in the WORLD would the Dodgers who are 1/2 game back in the crappiest
division want to trade a decent starting pitcher ? Trust me they do NOT need an SS that
bad. They can get Eckstein or someone like him for next to nothing.
I know we are all playing at GM for fun but it is not very interesting if you make
silly trade ideas.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
btw - Dodgers are linked to JWilson from the Pirates
Blue Mike will be bummed – I know he was beating the drums for us getting Wilson for a long time….
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jul 5, 2008 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sold!
Doggie, never underestimate a GM’s propensity for stupid (Coletti). In fact maybe some sentiment may enter into his decision and he sends us Lowe as a gift to his old club.
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lots of sentiment
Grabbing Furcal at the last minute and not even allowing the Cubs to make a counter
offer and taking Maddux off our hands in exchange for Izzy. Gee with sentiment like that
I bet he will offer us Pierre AND Andruw Jones both for just a prospect since he is so
anxious to help us..
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Dodgers are .5 games out of first in their division
They are buyers not sellers. Why would they trade Lowe?
by Wreckard on Jul 5, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not Now, Obviously
I’m guessing speculation is contingent on the Dodgers falling out of the race by the end of the month.
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trading
Is it only me or is anyone sick and tired of waiting their entire lives for this team to win and wants to win in 08 and if it means trading unproven prospects for the final piece or two and we win the world series want to win it now?
If we traded someone and got a player that was key to hearing We Are the Champions at Wrigley in October the player we gave up as far as I’m concerned could win the next 10 Cy Youngs or MVPs.
We have held onto prospects for too long so many times and maybe a prospect we held on to might have helped us win in 03 or maybe 04 in a trade that didn’t go down.
Go Cubs
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jul 5, 2008 1:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but
The chances that you make a blockbuster trade and win the WS are not very good… so most likely you don’t win and then you hear about your prospects achievements for eternity.
You have to make sensible trades, I don’t believe in going for broke.
Luis
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
CC Sabathia would be a great addition to this team. But does it GUARANTEE a WS title? No, it doesn’t. Nothing does.
So what do you do? “Go for it” and prove that you’re “doing something” as a GM? Or do you feel you have a good enough team (one that’s 17 games over .500 in early July, not too shabby) and stay put?
Tough call.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jul 5, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
C'mon Al....
You’ve been a diehard sitting in those bleachers for a lot longer than even I. Are you going to sit there and say with a straight face that acquiring a frontline starting pitcher simply falls in the category of “doing something”? On a team that you know as well as anybody who has a suspect cast of starting pitchers once you get past Carlos Zambrano? And that it would be wrong to “mortgage the future” even though this organization has one of the stinkiest records in baseball of developing prospects and is uniquely poised to win in 2008 like it has never been uniquely poised before?
I’m not buyin’ it. I give you more credit than this. Way more.
Pitching is KING. We don't add a frontline starting pitcher and a quality bullpen arm then this season will have yet another sad conclusion.
by MDBNIU on Jul 5, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I'm saying is...
... that “going for it” guarantees you nothing.
Do the Cubs need more pitching? Sure they do. Does ANY acquisition of a starting pitcher guarantee you a World Series title? No, it does not.
That’s the point I was trying to make.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jul 5, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well then it's settled
Lets go get Rich Harden (I kid). But I WILL take A.J. Burnett to go along with a primo middle relief pitcher. And I don’t particularly care if we need to trade away a bunch of prospects to do it. Because I like the probability of THIS ballclub to make it to the World Series (with a few additions) versus that assortment of prospects having significant long-term value in a Cub uniform.
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
by MDBNIU on Jul 5, 2008 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mets GMs
get hoisted on the petard of “go for it” and “prove you’re doing something”, from Bob Scheffing to Omar Minaya.
I’m all for making trades and FA signings sooner than later and gambling once in a while, but it sure helps when the targeted player is in his prime and can be retained for a while. And then there’s the question of having a strong enough minor league system to provide the trading chips.
Look, if Shapiro is satsified with Cedeno, Pie, etc for CC then let’s get him. But I think the Tribe likes the Brewers (and maybe Dodgers) prospects better. I’d rather tailor my hopes to be a little more realistic and see about strengthening the bench and bullpen.
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You wouldn't take a 3 month rental...
...on the meaningfully enhanced chance of making it to the World Series for the first time since 1945. All based on the fear that Felix Pie and Ronny Cedeno might morph into the second coming of Roberto Clemente and Ozzie Smith? Please.
I’m sorry, but NONE of the current crop of Cub prospects rates in the super stud category. Maybe Josh Vitters graduates to that category but it’s a moot point because he can’t be included in a deal anyways. Ask yourself the question how many “can’t miss” prospects have there been within the Cub system over the decades who crapped out completely.
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
by MDBNIU on Jul 5, 2008 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell You What
YOU talk Shapiro or Beane into accepting our prospects and I will drive them to Oakland or Cleveland.
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again: contradiction, repetition, contradiction, repetition, contradiction, repetition, contradiction, repetition,.
So the Cubs have no “can’t miss” prospects yet you expect a trade for a “front line” starter and “primo” middle relief pitcher?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 5, 2008 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen brother
I’m 45 years old and have been a diehard since 1977. Never in the past 31 years have the Cubs had this good a chance to get to a World Series. The National League sucks and the Cubs have a well stacked team with a great manager at the helm. A host of players are at the peak of their careers or likely having career years. But the achilles heel is the pitching. Time to pull out ALL THE STOPS and do what is need to augment the rotation and the bullpen. You would think an organization who has such a wretched history in developing prospects would uniquely understand the proposition of trading away prospects in order to enhance winning in the present.
Pitching is KING. We don't add a frontline starting pitcher and a quality bullpen arm then this season will have yet another sad conclusion.
by MDBNIU on Jul 5, 2008 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Career years?
I don’t think any Cub is having a career year except Dempster. Zambrano has been great, but his 2004 was awesome.
I think this makes it more impressive that the Cubs are where they are. The team is just extremely balanced.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
I would argue that Alfonso Soriano, Derrek Lee and Mark DeRosa are all performing at a level they will doubtful be able to sustain much beyond this season. Geovany Soto is also posting big numbers for a catcher. What happens to his offensive production a few years down the road when the ravages of catching a 140 games a season start taking a physical toll? It can be legitimately argued that Ryan Theriot is performing well over his talent level. And what about 38 year old Jim Edmonds.
On the pitching staff Ted Lilly is doubtful to get better than what he is doing at present. Ditto Jason Marquis who is signed for $9 million next season and is thereby immovable. Kerry Wood’s right arm is held on with duct tape and could go “BOOM” at any moment.
So overall? Yeah I would say the sense of urgency to win now is there. Which is different then the story being told in Milwaukee where players like Prince Fielder, Ryan Braun, Rickie Weeks, Corey Hart, JJ Hardy, Manny Parra and Yovani Gallardo presumbly have years of growth and improvement in front of them.
Pitching is KING. We don't add a frontline starting pitcher and a quality bullpen arm then this season will have yet another sad conclusion.
by MDBNIU on Jul 5, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Newsflash: Alfonso Soriano isn't peforming at any level.
He’s on the DL? Remember? Do you even watch the games?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 5, 2008 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention
that Lee is having an average year in terms of OPS and has grounded into an astronomical number of DP and that Aramis is below what he has done in previous years.
But, anyone can make any argument. Whatever.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Samardzilja
Is Jeff Smardzilja untouchable?
Go Cubs
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jul 5, 2008 1:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep. Not worth talking about trading him when he cannot be traded
Missouri Tigers 2008 Cotton Bowl Champs
by nji232 on Jul 5, 2008 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Public relations issue?
Is or will the Shark be a draw, or is that an issue? Good question. I think the Cubs would want to hold onto him. Now if CC or Harden is coming this way, that would change, IMO
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Jul 5, 2008 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this stage he is overrated and overhyped
His two sport story and Notre Dame roots have resulted in more attention and publicity then his performance on the mound merits. Way more. Would I trade him for the right piece that might help get this team to a World Series? You damn straight I would.
Pitching is KING. We don't add a frontline starting pitcher and a quality bullpen arm then this season will have yet another sad conclusion.
by MDBNIU on Jul 5, 2008 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Indians
Maybe we could talk to the Indians and put him in the CC possible trade.
Sell them on potential cross marketing with Brady Quinn on the Browns.
Go Cubs
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jul 5, 2008 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What cross-marketing?
Good Lord, are you serious? I swear some of you goofy bastards leave me scratching my head.
Pitching is KING. We don't add a frontline starting pitcher and a quality bullpen arm then this season will have yet another sad conclusion.
by MDBNIU on Jul 5, 2008 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now You Know How It Feels!
LOL (don’t take too seriously)
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can see the commercials now
“Come see a former Notre Dame QB ride the bench for our football team on Sundays, and see his former WR pitch for our last place team once every 5 days!!!”
Missouri Tigers 2008 Cotton Bowl Champs
by nji232 on Jul 5, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they use "Cleveland Rocks" in those ads
I swear I’m totally moving there! ;)
"Whoo, boy! Next time around, bring me back my stomach!" -Jack Brickhouse
by Goodie1969 on Jul 5, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Ya Know What?
There’s bound to be some ND alums that would fall for it.
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Try reading the thread: HE HAS A NO-TRADE CLAUSE.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 5, 2008 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Shark does
then add that to what I wrote below.
It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.
by Josh77 on Jul 5, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem
is that he has a 5 year, $10 million contract with 3.5 years left to run. He’s not untouchable, but his contract sort of defeats one of the goals of prospects—cheap players.
On top of that, he’s a threat to retire and play football if he goes to an organization he doesn’t like.
And few organizations rate him as highly as the Cubs do.
He’s technically not untouchable, but he’s untradable.
It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8 lbs. 1 oz.
by Josh77 on Jul 5, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the problem I have...
I know we need another front line starter, but what do we give up? Why give up the farm for a 3 month rental? Especially when that rental can only be used every 5th day. I would rather Hendry go after a second tier pitcher that can induce a bunch of ground balls and upgrade middle infield at the same time.
"I'm not giving him a high-five ever again." - Sammy Sosa, joking about Moises Alou's personal habits
by MorePiePlease on Jul 5, 2008 2:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's where I agree completely with MDBNIU
The Cubs have, at best, a poor record of developing prospects and I, for one, have been hearing about building for the future since the mid-seventies-it hasn’t worked so far-it’s time to go for all the marbles THIS YEAR. There isn’t a Cubs prospect that I wouldn’t at least consider trading even for a three month rental if it gives us a legitimate chance at a World Series Championship. The team we have right now is good but pieces definitely need to be added.
by bluekoolaide on Jul 5, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are talking about
Position players
The Cubs have developed numerous pitchers, some who are contributing elsewhere (Pinto, Nolasco).
Luis
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good grief
So let’s sacrifice ability to get to a World Series in 2008 out of fear that we may give away the next Renyel Friggin Pinto and Ricky Fraggin Nolasco.
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
by MDBNIU on Jul 5, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who are we not willing to sacrifice ?
We do NOT have enough to get CC or Hardin. PERIOD. A,J is a 24 million dollar often injured albatross who could probably be gotten but not worth it. I know this is getting boring but you simply have never explained how our “prospects” or available players could bring us the “front line” starter you insist we need. Did anyone say we would not trade Gallagher, Pie Cedeno, Murton and Veal for CC ? but Guess what SHAPIRO does not want that trade. Start dealing in REALITY and maybe we would not make so much fun of you.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Geez man
If it would take Nolasco and Pinto to get frontline pitcher everybody would it. When did I say that?
If getting a frontline rental pitchers means giving up Gallagher and every pitcher in the farm who has potential (Veal, Ceda, whoever else), plus the best position players (Vitters, although I hear he can’t be traded, I don’t know the rules), I would AT THE VERY LEAST think about it.
You sound as though you would make a deal regardless of the price. And that, to me, is not the way to go.
And btw, the Cubs did produce Zambrano. How would you feel renting a pitcher, not winning the WS and watching your Zabrano on another team for a long career + perhaps other players?
That’s why I say you make sensible trades. You don’t just give up whatever it takes. Just like Hendry didn’t trade for Roberts because he felt the price wasn’t right, it’s the same with this. You always overpay at the trade deadline. But you should have limits as to how much you are willing to overpay.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
AND...
The window of opportunity for this bunch (and it’s manager) is NOW.
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
by MDBNIU on Jul 5, 2008 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
The only thing I’ve been saying is that IF the Cubs do make a “go for it” deal, it does NOT guarantee you anything. (Witness: the Mets’ trade for Johan Santana.)
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jul 5, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For those who want Burnett
Can you PLEASE explain how this guy
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6314
Is worth a 24 million dollar commitment ? How is any better than Maddux, Wolf, or any
pitcher we actually have a chance of getting. An ERA almost 5. A Whip at nearly 1.5 ?
The main difference between him, Maddux and Wolf is that he gets RUN support. Without
his contract I would be happy to consider him for some expendable players but unless
he agrees in writing to wave his two years ( and why would he ?) stay the hell AWAY from him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 3:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Because
Unlike Maddux, or Wolf, he has the stuff that can dominate. Remember Lowe in 2004? He had a horrible year (5.42 ERA) but was very good in the postseason. That’s what stuff can do.
For that, you may be willing to take a gamble if the price is right.
In a perfect world you trade for a guy who is dominating now and you don’t give up your entire farm for it. But this is not a perfect world. So you pick your gamble. If it takes the entire farm to land Sabathia and it doesn’t take too much for Burnett, I’d take my chances with Burnett.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares if he CAN dominate
because he has NOT dominated all season. You want to pay him 24 Million because maybe
he puts it together ? Nice of you to want that but to answer your previous post no I don’t think
if we was offered for free their would be any takers at least not the Cubs. Gee the Indians just
signed Jeff Weaver as I recall he too HAD dominating stuff and he probably did not cost them more
than league minimum.
I just love how folks rip Maddux, Wolf, etc for having some real bad outings in addition to a lot of
good ones but Burnett is Ok because he has “dominating” stuff even if it RARELY dominates anyone
( like the Angels last night)
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You really believe
That if Burnett was given away for free there wouldn’t be any takers?
I think you are out of touch with today’s baseball, to put it kindly.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think so
Toronto has made it clear they are in sell mode. Have you hear even a remotely
serious rumor for A.J ? The only way they get rid of him is A. he agrees to opt out
(not gonna happen) B. Blue Jays eat a lot of money. How many teams out there including
the Cubs are DESPERATE for pitching yet so far no nibbles on a “Dominating” guy.
Maybe because he has a really high ERA and is going to get 12 million for each of the
next two seasons. Not even Yankees or Red Sox are going to snack on that.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's pointless to keep arguing
I’ll just point out that the guy had an ERA in the 3’s for 4 straight years, the last two of which were in the AL east. You think that what he has done this years wipes out all that, then more power to you.
And the point that noone would take him for free is silly. I’ll leave it at that.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree to disagree but
He is FAR FROM FREE. If he did not have a 24 million dollar contract than
I am SURE there would be folks willing to give up nice players for him but I don’t think
any team wants that risk. The interesting question to me is does he think about waiving
it to get the hell out of dodge ? Not sure on that.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
He gives up his clause just to get out of Toronto. But I don’t have inside info.
Let’s just say that the 2/24 option seems more frightening to you than what I think seems to GMs in the league desperate for pitching. It obviously limits the players the Jays can get in a trade, but if they just wanted to just give him up (unlike Marquis) they probably would be able to do with one phone call.
by Luis on Jul 5, 2008 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why shouldn't he opt out ?
By your belief he is a dominating pitcher with a great record who has maybe hit
a rough patch. Surely he would be eager to opt out and collect many millions more such a pitcher would command as an FA ?
For the record I don’t even know if it legally possible for him to “opt out” before
the end of the season just to get out of Toronto. Most likely violates the contract with the players union but I am just saying by your belief in his abilities it should be a no brainer.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stuff is very important in judging a pitcher.
So is past history. And ERA is a poor way to judge pitchers – Burnett and Sabathia have essentially the same K, BB and HR numbers this season. That’s a better indicator of sucess.
by cwyers on Jul 5, 2008 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm...Interesting
I’m not a SABR-type guy so I don’t get why ERA isn’t a good way to judge pitchers. Enlighten me, por favor….
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because other events are not as nearly controllable by the pitcher.
If your defense makes a few spectacular plays behind you, your ERA is artificially low; if your defense lets a few balls get by them (not commiting an error, just not getting to them in the first place) your ERA is artificially high.
This eventually evens out over time, by which I mean 2-3 years or so. But for a season or half-season, there is a lot of “noise” captured by ERA that has little predictive value.
by cwyers on Jul 5, 2008 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How Do You Feel About WHIP?
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's meaningless.
The idea behind WHIP is to isolate a pitcher’s ability to strand baserunners from his ability to allow walks and hits. That’s almost exactly wrong – pitchers have more control over stranding baserunners than they do over hits on balls in play.
When I’m looking for a rough guide to how well a pitcher has pitched, I look at FIP, or Fielding Independent Pitching. The formula is:
( 13*HR + 3 * ( HBP + BB) – 2 * K / IP ) +3.2
That’s meant to be on the same scale as ERA. FIP’s what I like to call a “toy stat,” because it’s like the difference between a Tonka truck and the real thing – in this case, the real thing would be to do a regression analysis by component, which is hard to implement. It’s a good back-of-the-envelope guide to pitcher quality, though.
by cwyers on Jul 5, 2008 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You DO Like The Fielding, Dontcha?
Not mean as flippant – just my way of saying that I’ve never run into a sabremetician who has researched it as thoroughly as you. Nice job!
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
FIP is Tom Tango's invention, based on Voros McCracken's work.
I stand on the shoulders of giants.
by cwyers on Jul 6, 2008 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will add
a stat that is important and not mentioned, and that’s innings pitched. CC is a good bet to stay healthy most years, AJ is a near-lock to miss 10 starts.
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Jul 5, 2008 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fearless Forecast
Whoever the Cubs acquire, some will absolutely love the deal and some will bitterly despise it.
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 3:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Unless it is Clemens out of retirement
or Byung-Hyun Kim I promise not to despise any starter they pick up. Hey I don’t mind Burnett I just
don’t think he is realistic.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Warning....MDBNIU is about to contradict himself
The rich discussion of starting pitcher targets the last few weeks has made me think. Obviously we don’t have what it will take to land CC Sabathia or Rich Harden. And it appears the rest of the available targets are less than inspiring.
So MAYBE the real strategy of Jim Hendry can and will be to SIGNIFICANTLY upgrade the bullpen. I’m not talking acquisition of a Michael Wuertz or Scott Eyre clone. Rather I’m talking about a primetime setup man or even a closer who come here and serve as a set-up man. Right now our bullpen is a kettle of fish. But maybe Bob Howry and Neal Cotts have big time 2nd halfs. And hopefully Carlos Marmol recaptures his deadly 1-2 punch of the slider setting up the fastball. And knock on wood Kerry Wood stays healthy. So go ahead and add a high caliber arm (or two) to the mix of Wood, Marmol, Howry, Cotts. Take the strategy of having the best damned bullpen in baseball and reduce the worry of having a staff over-populated with 6 inning pitchers.
Who is available that fits this mold? Who are the Scott Linebrink types that are available on the trade market? Who are free agents to be that teams might be willing to trade in anticipation of losing them anyway? I’m talking serious outside the box thinking. I’m talking something as off the wall as Billy Wagner. Or how about Jon Rauch.
Lets come up with the list of conceivable names. C’mon, it will be fun.
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
by MDBNIU on Jul 5, 2008 7:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No need to start warning us of your contradictions now.
We’re used to them.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 5, 2008 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't this what I've been suggesting
for weeks?
by leothelip on Jul 5, 2008 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Like Fun!
Brian Fuentes (Col)
Ron Mahay (KC)
Heath Bell (SD)
Aaron Heilman (NY)
Juan Cruz (ARI)
Eddie Guardado (TEX)
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bell won't be traded
Rockies want too much for Fuentes . I don’t care for any of the rest.
Guess what relief pitchers are just as desired as starting pitchers so anyone really good
is likely to cost more than we can afford. Ironically it is bats where one get a “bargain”
at the trade deadline this year but I don’t think we are seriously in the market for one.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is young and under their control
for a few years if I remember correctly. Padres are VERY cheap so are not going to trade
a cheap young guy. Bell has been a little uneven as well. One of my Maddux obsessed friend’s refers to him a a VULTURE. He leads the Padres with 6 wins ( unless Peavy goes ahead of him tonight) ALL IN THE MONTH OF JUNE , and most the result of HIS blowing a lead left by Maddux or Wolf but getting the win when the Padres went ahead.
However seller teams do not as a rule dump young guys they have a need for.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2008 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Simplicity
It’s simple. If the Brewers get CC, the Cubs can look at the Burnetts and the Wolfs, but the move that will have to be made is an upgrade of the middle IF. You do that and ALL of the Cubs starters get better and the ‘pen gets the rest it desperately needs. You don’t do it and it could be the difference maker, especially in the playoffs when team defense is even more important.
The problem is that Hendry loves DeRosa and Lou loves Theriot and the fans love both. It’s our love for these players that may keep the Cubs from doing what it takes to win. But the move is simple and staring us in the face every time a grounder up the middle is missed and the innings are extended.
by DGU on Jul 5, 2008 8:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Middle IFer Upgrade
A defensive upgrade, esp. at SS, would undoubtedly help quite a bit—and is something that could get done and at a far lower long term cost to the Cubs. I love Theriot for his intangibles … but … his range is nothing “short” of awful.
If It Takes Forever ....
by wrigley1 on Jul 6, 2008 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Upgrading the Middle IF doesn't have to be a knock against Theriot.
Mark DeRosa should be tradeable since he can be offered at a low price as either a 3B or a 2B. So, it could be DeRosa who goes or Theriot who goes, but we can’t keep starting both of them in the middle IF.
by DGU on Jul 6, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, sure ...
if only considering the middle IF aspects, either Riot or DeRo could go. Bigger picture, DeRo is vastly more versatile as a super-sub and has a lot more pop in his bat.
If It Takes Forever ....
by wrigley1 on Jul 6, 2008 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DeRo is much more likely to have trade value
and Lou values Theriot over DeRo anyway.
by DGU on Jul 6, 2008 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go get CC
Who are the position players from AAA and AA the Cubs can offer the Tribe that would surpass the Brewers offer.
Harden and AJ scare me a little from the injury standpoint. Plus AJ can opt out after this year I believe.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
by blackhawk24 on Jul 5, 2008 9:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Academic Question
If we had a time machine and could bring the Felix Pie of April 16, 2007 (the day before his first callup) in to today, if you were the Indians, would you prefer him or the Matt LaPorta of today? Pie had roughly the same OPS that LaPorta has today in AA, but was a year younger (In real life, Pie is one month older than LaPorta.). I don’t think Pie fits the Cleveland club and his value has taken a hit for sure, but I think an unblemished Pie raking in AAA would be theoretically more valuable than Matt LaPorta.
by DGU on Jul 5, 2008 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Academic Answer
If we had that Felix Pie here today, don’t you think he’d be starting in center field for the Cubs? An unblemished Pie wouldn’t be raking in AAA very long – he’d be up here and this whole Reedmonds thing would never have happened. Well, maybe Reed would have still been picked up strictly as a 4th outfielder, but Edmonds would never have been resurrected. And Pie would be mentioned in the same breath as Marmol and Soto as untouchables, the Cubs core of the future.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jul 5, 2008 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not so academic in that case
We had that Felix Pie. He was benched for Jacque Jones.
My question is more along the lines of, what if Hendry had known Lou wouldn’t play Pie because of concerns about Felix’s swing – what if instead of having an organizational battle trying to force Pie on Lou, we had let him thrive on AAA pitching and planned to trade him?
by DGU on Jul 6, 2008 7:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ahh.... so you just want to pawn off cheap and defective goods on another team? ;-)
If that Pie was benched for JJ, then I think you answered your own question. If Lou had concerns about Felix’s swing, doesn’t it follow that other teams who scouted him would have had similar concerns? In that scenario, I’m pretty sure an organization like Cleveland would have seen through this and recognize that Pie has the makings of a AAAA player. Pittsburgh or LA, maybe a different story – Jimbo’s fleeced them before, maybe he could have done it again.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jul 6, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But scouts from other teams were praising Pie.
We know this because Felix Pie wouldn’t have been a top 100 prospect for five years in a row if most scouts didn’t like what they saw. And we know that even the Cubs management was divided on Pie. So, some teams may have shared Lou’s perspective, but if most teams shared that perspective, Pie wouldn’t have been ranked ahead of Daric Barton, Billy Butler, Hanley Ramirez, Cameron Maybin, Carlos Gonzalez, Jeff Clement, Scott Olsen, Joel Zumaya, Mike Pelfrey, and Jonathan Papelbon (to name just the ten names immediately after him in BA’s 2006 Top 100).
To put Pie’s 2006 ranking in perspective, Daric Barton was part of the deal for Mark Mulder, Hanley Ramirez was part of the deal for Josh Beckett, Cameron Maybin for Miguel Cabrera, and Carlos Gonzalez for Dan Haren. That gives us a sense of how much trade value Felix Pie has lost because of the Cubs’ handling of him.
by DGU on Jul 6, 2008 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zero
Nothing the Cubs could offer (excepting guys on the 25 man and then what would be the point) can trump the deal that the Brewers have reportedly put on the table. Shapiro is seeing if the Dodgers will pony up the likes of Kershaw, plus. They won’t. C.C. will be staring for the Brewers on Tue.
by MickS on Jul 6, 2008 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another Nice Pickup
might be Mark Loretta from Houston. A .360 lifetime OBP, .760 OPS (good for a middle infielder?), could spell DeRosa and ARam (by way of DeRo playing 3rd).
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 5, 2008 10:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm Turning In My Junior GM Badge
Guys, I suck at this. :(
Every time I think I come up with a good player my ideas turn out being duds. So I’m deferring to the rest of the board. But I’ll warn you all of one thing – I’m easily pleased, so don’t be surprised to see me praising the deals we make like I was Ernie Banks.
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 6, 2008 2:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
Cubs By The Numbers
Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.
Click here to order your copy, available now!
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
