Cubs Apparently Pursuing Harden
by oeosoto on Jul 7, 2008 9:20 AM CDT
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It talks about the Dan Haren deal in this article and how good Billy Beane is at getting prospects, the only reason I would not mind trading away prospects is because Harden is still young and can be good for years to come but, he is injury-prone. I would like Harden as a starter but, if we sell the farm for this guy and he gets hurt it could really affect us for years to come. I really would like them togo after Burnett becuase I think he is chaeper and in the NL I believe will be a lot better then his numbers show.
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Look! Blue Mike! Look!
Blue Mike’s dream may be coming true! Seriously, Rich Harden could really help the Cubs. He’s not CC. No one can predict injuries. He has had injury problems. That doesn’t mean he would get hurt with the Cubs this season. The Cubs do need another solid starter. Harden could very well be that guy. How can Blue Mike contain himself?
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
your giving your own fanpost a +1?
by princefieldersdiet on Jul 7, 2008 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions
He was obviously replying to the first comment
It’s easy to get the reply sequence wrong when there’s only been one or two replies in a thread.
''Listen, losing Soriano is no box of chocolates.'' ~Lou Piniella
I was giving Memphis Cub
+1 for his comments on Blue Mike hence the reply to his post
Click "reply" below the post...
... to keep it threaded properly.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
It also
sounds to me like if we get another starter and he is a righty (please no Wolf please no Wolf) Marshall will stay in the rotation making Marquis the one headed out but, what do we do with him not really a great middle reliever and our bullpen is starting to become a log jam. I really think we should try and trade Marquis for Cash to the Yankees or someone that needs an innings eater
who the hell would want Marquis?
Just because the Yankees have money doesn’t mean they want to waste it on Jason Marquis.
by princefieldersdiet on Jul 7, 2008 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions
What if we convince them he's just as good as Farnsworth?
"Whoo, boy! Next time around, bring me back my stomach!" -Jack Brickhouse
I feel
You don’t watch baseball the Yankees just picked up Sidney Ponson if they could get Marquis they may take him and it was an idea actual facts just an idea that I would like to see happen
I am sure people would take Marquis
IF WE FLAT OUT RELEASED HIM and ate the roughly 13 million left on his salary because
that is how the Yankees got Ponson ( different circumstances but he only cost league minimum)
As I said before if one makes a trade for a better pitcher you can stash him kicking and screaming in in the BP for a month. Rosters expand in Sept and if Lou wants he can leave him off the post
season roster. Lou makes so little use of the back end of the BP anyway that having him their
for mop up is harmless. Lou has so little faith in him that he basically skipped him for two starts
and will start him on 9 days rest this weekend. Seems unfair after one his best outings of the year but Lou does not trust him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2008 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
It's not that crazy...
if you’re trying to make up nine games - and have piles of cash - maybe you want someone more robust starting games down the stretch than Darrell Rasner and Sidney Ponson.
It’’s not the worst idea in the world.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 7, 2008 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Just read the Yankees
are scouting Victor Zambrano who has a 9.something ERA in AAA I think Marquis would be better then him just a guess
That's good stuff...
You know, I realize I’m in the minority here, but I really hope that Jim Hendry doesn’t feel obligated to go chase a name starter pitcher just to make a move. Harden has some nice upside, but has only hit real starter innings once in his career. Burnett is carrying a five ERA, and being something of a crappy teammate. Millwood is maddeningly inconsistent, and Bedard - were the Mariners inclined to wash their hands of that situation now - is apparently something of a nut. And don’t get me started on Wolf and Maddux. It’s not a great market.
If Hudson, Lowe, or the like were to become available, I say great. Past that, I’d just as soon find a middle reliever that Lou will trust enough to give the damn ball to, and maybe a real middle infielder to bring off the bench; versatile, and offensively productive, minus the Cedeno-like foibles.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 7, 2008 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree with some of it
But I think Burnett=Good Move he will produce in the NL and IMO I feel he could be dominant. Harden is scary and may be to expensive and Wolf to me would = Panic Move and just create a log jam
Perhaps...
And if you dumped Burnett off at my door, I wouldn’t send him away. But if I were Jim Hendry, I wouldn’t feel the need to blow up J.P.’s phone about acquiring him.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 7, 2008 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm leery of Burnett due to his injury history.
Making this move smacks of getting a “name” pitcher just to do so. Also, he’s got a lot of dollars due to him in the next couple of years.
Stay away.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Yeah, I've got a similiar bad feeling about Burnett.
His career numbers are good but, so far this season, he does not appear worth valuable prospects. I feel like the Cubs already have a former AL-pitcher who’s found success in the NL in Theodore Roosevelt Lilly. A comparison of their ‘08 numbers:
Burnett: 4.92 ERA/1.491 WHIP/.264 BAA (82 ERA+)
Lilly: 4.47 ERA/1.305 WHIP/.245 BAA (100 ERA+)
I know it’s only half a season’s worth of data, but I’m just not sold on Burkett…er, I mean, Burnett.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
My view on Burnett
is that if the Cubs get him, I’ll expect him to be good. If they don’t, I won’t. His injuries and 2008 performance worry me. But Jim Hendry can see that just as easily as I can. He can also see things I can’t, such as health reports, scouting reports, etc. If the Cubs think he’s worth it, I’ll expect him to do well.
He's got an out clause
that makes him a FA after this season.
I'm not a religious man, but I pray for Carlos Marmol's arm...and psyche.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Jul 7, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
But would he exercise it for sure?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I disagree Al
you may not like the big name deal but technically, if Harden shows up, it is a win. If he gets hurt, the hope is we do not trade away players that are helping the 2008 club. I personally have to say I like what I have seen of his last 10 or so starts.
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on Jul 7, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, the Cubs would almost certainly...
...have to trade away one player who is helping the 2008 club. His name is Sean Gallagher.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
i don;t think he has been ALL that much help personally
Plus, haven’t seen him out of the pen yet this stint and as far as starting pitching, that hole would be immediately filled by the pickup.
Calm down.
Didn't I hear that
Harden has never mad more than 11 starts in a row? I could be mistaking but I thought I heard that on BBTN.
by TheRamZamDLEE on Jul 7, 2008 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I am not sure about the number of starts but
his era and record are pretty nice. His performance lately has been pretty good since coming back.
Calm down.
+1
A real move, would be to do some supreme scouting and trade for an arm who’s not full of hype, but you know you can “fix.” Kind of like what Dave Duncan keeps on doing with every no-name arm they give him.
There’s another Cliff Lee sitting in someone’s rotation somewhere… heck, there’s another Ryan Dempster on somebody’s roster somewhere. Just takes the vision to go recognize that.
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
Burnett was better
then Dempster when they pitched on the same team, and people just look at his numbers but, he is in one of the best hitting divisions in baseball. His numbers are not the best and he walks to many people but, change of scenary and some weaker competition could do wonders for him.
If I might interject...
especially as something of a Blue Jays fan myself, some of us are looking at more than his numbers. We’re reading the press, watching some of his starts, and seeing the videos of him alienating fans.
Honestly, JP should trade him at the deadline for whatever he can get. A change of scenery is definitely in order, maybe just not to Chicago. Truthfully though, that whole clubhouse needs an exorcism.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 7, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Not completely.
They need to get rid of the GM, too.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Ding, ding, ding...
Yep. And don’t even get me started on the ownership group. They’re alienating free agents and signees even as they’re coming in the door, then were beating them up daily with Gibbons. They appear to need some expansive, fundamental changes that Gibbons being fired just allows them to gloss over.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 7, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually,
with much of that team still intact, the ghost of Gibbons still lingers. I tend to suspect that many more changes in Toronto are in order.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 7, 2008 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
At this point
I’m fine with DFAing Marquis. He should have some minimal trade value if we ate the contract, but I don’t care anymore.
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
I really Doubt
Hendry would make himself look that bad by DFAing a guy he signed for 7 mil a yr and he could still help just if we did get Harden I feel he would be the odd man out.
How much do we really want to win?
Because if we really want to win every game possible, we don’t pitch Marquis before Lieber/Gallagher/Marshall. Similarly, if we really want to win, we have to fix the middle infield. So, what’s most important to the Cubs? Is it winning or is it looking bad? Is it winning or playing personal favorites?
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions
It seemed to the baseball world
that the trade of Haren for prospects indicated that Billy Beane was in a rebuilding stage, but he might be second-guessing. I seriously hope that we can land someone who is not named Randy Wolf, that would be pathetic if thats the best we can do
"I wish I had a dollar for every time I spent a dollar, because then I'd have all my money back."
-Jack Handey
by deepthoughtsbyjackhandey on Jul 7, 2008 9:36 AM CDT reply actions
Don't we have some sort of rule about...
...basing fanposts purely on items from that particular Web site? Here’s the Sun-Times article upon which the item is based.
As has been mentioned about 540,000 times previously, acquiring Harden would be a huge gamble in terms of injury risk. But maybe Hendry feels the Brewers have forced his hand by picking up Sabathia. And maybe, just maybe Beane will provide Jimbo with some sort of tangible reassurance that Harden has figured out his arm problems. I can’t believe I just wrote all of that.
In any case, I hope Hednry steers clear of Plan C – Randy Wolf. Besides being more experienced that Gallagher and Marshall, he doesn’t bring anything the Cubs don’t already have, IMHO.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Further, that MLBTR post quotes Jayson Stark as saying...
The A’s will consider any offers that allow them to add and subtract at the same time. But any Harden deal would have to at least approach last winter’s Dan Haren extravaganza
Which the Cubs can’t match.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
If the price is still = to Haren then this is difficult
but ask yourself this – why should Harden cost much more than CC? Because Harden is under control for another year? Will he be healthy that year?
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions
That doesnt make sense, Haren is a much better pitcher
...why would someone have to pony up equivalent pieces for less in return?
because you pay
what the market will bear, not what someone is actually worth.
See: Yahoo stock.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
I understand free market economics...
...my point is just because Billy Beane wants Dan Haren value for Rich Harden doesn’t mean he will get it.
To me that means Harden isn’t really available unless someone wants to give Beane their system for him.
Marquis
While Marquis is no Cy Young except for once he has pitched decent to well for the last few weeks every outing. Nothing to write home about but not badly either,
He consistently goes late into games and gives up 3 or 4 runs. WIth our offense we’re still going to win a lot of those.
Go Cubs
Marquis is not good.
He had a couple good starts last year, and you remember how bad he was at the end? He just isn’t reliable.
by princefieldersdiet on Jul 7, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions
He does NOT consistently go late into games.
Check his gamelogs. Of 16 starts this season, he’s pitched seven innings only four times.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
IMHO
I feel the A’s don’t trade for needs they trade for pure talent and try to get rid of salaries. I honestly have not ehard anything about what it would take or what they want. My guess is Veal would be in the trade maybe Cedeno and Patterson as well just throwing names out though i have no idea how much it would actually take
The A's need bats or prospects with bat power
The Oakland MO is to have unbelievable pitching with subpar hitting. I don’t think there is any bat in the active A’s lineup that is close to .300.
Harden is a great pitcher with stuff that’s as good, if not better than Haren. His health is always a question, however.
For half of Marquis losses, insert a Harden win and think of the possibilities,
Green Hulk Fists
Harden
HAS been to the postseason twice, for what it is worth…Not saying that eliminates any other concerns, just something else he brings to the table…
Brian McRae's 5 O'Clock Shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jul 7, 2008 9:41 AM CDT reply actions
Hasn't pitched very well in the postseason.
6.43 ERA in three appearances.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
1 decent start
and a couple bad relief innings against Boston…still could be valuable for a contending team, IMO.
Brian McRae's 5 O'Clock Shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jul 7, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Need glasses
I need to put on my glasses when I turn on the computer. I first read that as Cubs Apparently Pursuing Hardon.
Go Cubs
Rich Harden is an elite pitcher
As Mike Ditka likes to say cowards live in the past. If some want to obsess about Rich Harden’s significant injury history then I can’t help them. All I know is that Harden is heatlhy now and pitching like the dominant ace that he is. I would give my left nut to add someone of his caliber to the Cub rotation. Is it doable? I don’t see how given the shabby state of our player development system.
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
oh so shabby
to have produced the PCL Player of the year, who goes on to be the first rookie catcher on the all-star team the next.
Sounds like Harden didn’t do so well a few days back, either, home-slice.
I say we stand pat. We have the best record in the NL, we’re in first place, and we’ve stayed there through significant roster difficulties. Rich Hill may be turning it around, Felix Pie is starting to become the hitter we need him to be, Z is back, Lee’s out of his slump, Reed has recovered and Soriano’s return is just around the corner. We’ve won more than 50 games before the All-Star Break. What is it about this team that we think we need to fix so desperately? We’re not the Padres.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
We’ve played over .500 ball since June 1….18-15.
Continue that…and we’ll make the postseason pretty handily.
just sayin’
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree, Drewish
Standing pat might be our best option. Like you say, we’ve weathered recent storms and we’re still on top, even though we haven’t played particularly well over the last month. I’m also liking Gallagher and Marshall; I’d hate for us to sell the farm or bring in a scrub (Wolf) that really isn’t any better than our kids. If we must make a move, a solid defensive bench guy (MI) or possibly Fuentes would be a decent addition. Still, now that CC is gone, I’d only accept an addition if it didn’t cost us someone’s left nut.
"We are not equations with hats." -Dean Young
but we already have a willing donor!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Wow...
I didn’t think that two months could be interpreted as “living in the past” - which was the last time Harden found himself on the DL. And while I grant you the talent, do you really think that six DL trips - some for shoulder injuries—in the last few years isn’t worthy of concern?
by Damen Jackson on Jul 7, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Playoff-o-rama
I guarantee we are ensured an early exit in the playoffs (if we even make the playoffs) if we don’t have an answer to pitching duos like Brandon Webb and Danny Haren in Arizona and Ben Sheets and CC Sabathia in Milwaukee.
The playoffs are always about POWER PITCHING. Pitching is KING in baseball. Cubs are engineered to win NOW, but unfortunately the rotation isn’t up to the caliber level it needs to be. There is screaming need for a significant frontline starting pitcher.
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
that needs to be added
to the see-n-say, if it’s not there already…
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
you're worried
about the DIAMONDBACKS?
You really are living in last year.
If the rotation isn’t up to the caliber to WIN NOW… why are we WINNING NOW?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Well..
1. Who is in first place in the lowly NL West right now?
2. Who beat the living piss out of the Cubs in three games in the 2007 playoffs?
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
Good point -- I guess we'd better worry about the Padres and Giants, too
1984 and 1989, don’t you know. About as relevant.
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 7, 2008 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
And who did the Cubs sweep earlier this season?
(Yeah, yeah…I know they didn’t face Webb.)
Nanika Ga Okoru!
like I said
you’re living in last year.
And who HASN’T been in first place in the NL West? It’s like asking which turkey is best suited to fly away from the helicopter.
We CRUSHED the DBacks this year. Crush crush crush.
Here’s a hint—it’s not 2007 anymore.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I would be scared
if we faced the D-Backs in the playoffs to the team can flot out pitch and if we got shutdown we could be in big trouble I don’t know why you giving him so much crap it’s true.
did you watch
the games earlier this year? We crushed them. They’re a weak team this year. No lightening in the bottle.
BlueMike is wrong.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
No your wrong
Regular season won’t help when we face Webb-Haren-Owings and whoever else they have they are the same exact team as last yr with better pitching
maybe they are the same team as last year, maybe not.
but WE are NOT the same team as last year. And we CRUSHED THEM. Swept. By a LOT of runs. What part of 3-0 against the DBacks do you NOT understand?
You’re wrong. BlueMike is wrong.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Micah Owings is only special as a hitter.
As a pitcher he’s not all that good. ERA+ this season is 88. That’s Jason Marquis territory.
and they'll be facing a Cub lineup....
that has shown dramatic improvement across the board...
just sayin’
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
we should win if we had them in a series im just saying it would scare the crap out of me to play them if you are not scared by webb haren then your just blind
Are you honestly arguing that we should be scared...
...of a team with a losing record, that plays in the most Strawberry Shortcake division in baseball? Spare me.
DO YOU PEOPLE WATCH BASEBALL
seriously your record has nothing to do with it when you get to the playoffs ROCKIES any one. I am saying I would not like to play them in a 5 game series.
YES I WATCH BASEBALL
And I know that the Diamondbacks are a mediocre team. Mediocre teams can win in the playoffs. But I’m not going to lose sleep over the idea.
May 9, 10, 11.
Cubs Sweep Diamondbacks.
They’re not all that and a bag of chips. They can be beaten. WE KNOW they can be beaten. Because WE SWEPT THEM.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
wow
based on this we should go for the wild card and hope we can make the NLCS because the Brewers have abused us this year
sigh.
Look, you can move the goalposts all you want. It doesn’t change the fact that the Diamondbacks are not the threat they were last year, and we are not the team WE were last year.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
it has?
Did the DBacks suddenly all retire from Baseball?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
It's the playoffs...
every game will be important, and just about every team will have at least 2 very good SP. If you can’t take the heat….
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
NOT TRUE
DO we even have 2 VERY Good SP lilly and dempster are good but very good ace types no one but the D-Backs have that
Well then just give them the WS trophy now!
Do you want us to call your mommy when October comes?
Holy crap! We’re not going to get to play the Astros or Nationals in the playoffs. We get it…you expect to crap your pants every playoff game because we’ll have to beat teams that have good starters.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
They are who we thought they were!
Crown their asses! LOL
Current temperature in hell: 46 degrees F - and falling!
Granted.
The Webb-Haren combo still scares the hell out of me, too. Then again, I can’t help thinking that acquiring a starting pitcher wouldn’t completely resolve this problem, as the Cubs would still need to figure out how to hit those guys. And that’s where better advanced scouting would have to come into play.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
true
though if we had a pitcher that shut them down it would help a little
I think, oeosoto that
you need to get off of whatever drug you are on and accept the fact that the Cubs are the best team in the NL right now and will only get better, God willin’ and the creek don’t rise. The DBacks will not (providing they DO make the playoffs) have the horses to beat this Cubs team. Last year is done. If their pitching is so damn great, why do they have such a bad record, especially with the division they play MOST of their games against? Is your answer that the NL West is really the BEST division is the NL? I hope that IS your answer because it is the only reason to be shaking at the thought of playing ANY NL West team…....
by crazymountain on Jul 7, 2008 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions
As God as my witness...
I thought turkeys could fly!
Love the WKRP reference! I just watched that one on my DVR last night.
"Whoever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" - Frank Chance
you are welcome
kind Cubs Fan…
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks for that on-the-spot report, Les,
and for those of you who just tuned in, the Pinedale Shopping Mall has just been bombed with live turkeys. Film at eleven.
"Whoever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" - Frank Chance
Bravo Sierra
The playoffs are about scoring more runs than the opposition—just like the regular season. Joe Morgan may think the game is played differently in October, but Joe’s an idiot.
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 7, 2008 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
the power pitching argument
actually comes from Baseball Prospectus, not Joe Morgan.
Good try though.
I don't care where it comes from, it's bunk
Was using an analogy, not attempting to identify a source.
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 7, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Interestingly...
you didn’t answer my question, which was how you feel that numerous, recent DL trips shouldn’t be a concern when deciding whether to acquire this KING of POWER PITCHING.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 7, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Your left nut is a price I'm willing to pay. Get it done, Jim!
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
Any package for Harden
would start around Veal, Marshall, Castillo, Patterson and possibly Gallagher. That’s a deep package for someone who is very injury prone.
My new life, my new world, and my beautiful daughter:
Tamia London Davis: Due date (8-11-08)!
Heck
I wouldn’t have done that for CC. If it were Hart instead of Gallagher, maybe.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
I am sure that is what Beane told Hendry the past few weeks
If that was the case, it is clear to me Hendry is finding a way to lower the price for Harden. It won’t happen but it is Hendry’s only option. He knows the risk and he is not obligated to make a move right away. The Cubs are still in 1st place even with Z, Soriano, and RJ being injured. The team is becoming healthy and it is best for Hendry to wait out a bit more. Think about it…Rich Hill could return (I know the chances are still slim, but it’s better than nothing) and could end the Cubs need for a number 2-3 SP. Why make a deal right away when you can have a shot on the return of Rich Hill? Unless the Cubs are in 2nd place in the NL Central, the Cubs are in command of their own destiny.
Brewers desperately needed Sabathia; the Cubs on the other hand are not desperate. They would love to Harden, but ONLY for the right price.
Well good luck with that
Sigh. Yet another proposal by fellow Cub fans who think you can dazzle with mass quantities and of mediocrity and crap to get the gold of other organizations. Billy Beane would laugh at that deal.
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
And yet you've been the one...
...trumpeting a Harden trade for WEEKS UPON WEEKS. Now suddenly you’ve done an about face. Slow learner?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
The quality of Harden is close along those lines
Beane would demand the best of the best from the Cubs farm system. However, Hendry is reluctant to blow up the farm system for an injury prone SP. Btw, I am not living in the past and every baseball fan with some logic understands the consequence of acquiring a SP who has a injury history somewhat similar to Kerry Wood.
Mass quantities?
LOL. Do you expect these minor leaguers to come up and hit like Albert Pujols and pitch like Johan Santana? They may be mediocre in your eyes – but trust me a package of Veal, Marshall, Castillo and Gallagher it would be a huge start.
Rich Harden is not Jesus.
My new life, my new world, and my beautiful daughter:
Tamia London Davis: Due date (8-11-08)!
If they gave up this much
I WOULD CRY. That would mean we just got rid of three of our best young pitching prospects and a cathcer who could be an All-Star granted we have Soto but he could be used as a trade piece somewhere else(Castillo not Soto)
Harden
is Fool’s Gold.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd say he is more like fragile crystal
because he’s the real deal. He’s also fragile enough to become valueless if handled wrongly, or even just bumped a little too hard.
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
honestly
I don’t entirely disagree with you, but this isn’t golf we’re playing. It’s gonna take hard work, and stretching yourself, and a guy who refuses to throw more than 100 pitches (Or is that Bedard?)...
We cannot guarantee no bumps.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Bedard is the 100 pitch guy
Harden’s problem is that he works too hard – it’s been speculated that some of his problems in the past were due to overdoing his weightlifting programs.
well
I know how it feels when you lift too much.
he just seems very breakable. If we’re going to burn prospects and money, I’d like to feel more confident in the guy.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Bumps
I know we can’t guarantee no bumps. Harden is a definite risk. He isn’t fool’s gold, though. He’s as good as it gets when on.
I’d rather upgrade the middle IF defense. Easier, cheaper, more reward because it helps ALL the pitchers.
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed on all points, but
Do you see them moving Theriot from the everyday SS spot? I’m not sure that I do.
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 7, 2008 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
No, Theriot is the Heart and Soul and Pretty Rainbows in the Sky of the Team
Theriot CANNOT be moved out of an everyday role without revolts from the Chicago press, which has a significant influence on Cub decision making. Lou also seems to think Theriot is All-Star worthy.
Basically what you have to do is move Theriot to 2B. To accomplish that you have to get a SS whose reputation is sizable enough to convince Lou to make that move. Yes, Theriot is obviously not worth playing over DeRosa, so DeRosa has to be traded, which could bring back some nice piece(s).
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions
That's the problem
If they upgrade at SS and play DeRosa instead of Theriot, I think it’s a good move. I just don’t see that happening.
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 7, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions
That's a disaster.
Ryan Theriot is only the third-best second baseman on this team, and if he’s the best shortstop on the roster than it’s due to an absolute management failure. Upgrading at short simply to downgrade at second isn’t a solution to anything.
But you can't get rid of Theriot.
He has no trade value to most teams. Yet the Cubs see him as an All-Star. It’s absurd, but it is what it is. At least at 2B, his arm isn’t as taxed and his range isn’t as big of an issue, and Fontenot will steal playing time against RHP.
Meanwhile, DeRosa has not been that good defensively, either (although, caveat, I haven’t checked any stats on that recently).
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
The biggest reason to upgrade Theriot...
...is because it’s low-hanging fruit. You don’t have to be THAT good to upgrade him. You’re not going to find a second baseman as good as DeRosa for trade right now.
As for defenese – DeRosa’s STATS ZR is .826 right now, which would put him at third among qualified second basemen (he doesn’t qualify, thanks to his time in the outfield and at third base.)
So, how would you get rid of Theriot
from a PR perspective? Do you have video of him leaving a game early while the rest of the team is playing? He’d just say he had to get his uniforms cleaned because they were all dirty from taking so much extra IF practice.
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions
"We feel that this year we have a real chance...
...to bring a championship to the great city of Chicago, and Player X is a guy that we think can help us do that.”
And if Jim Hendry is making personel decisions...
...because of how he thinks the fans and the professional blatherers like Mariotti might react, he needs to lose his job. No, I think he honestly believes that Theriot is a good baseball player, which isn’t really defensible but it’s not a firing offense in and of itself.
We know Hendry or someone in the Cubs
has been very interested in the PR aspect of running the Cubs given how management has acted. They attacked first Sammy Sosa and then Mark Prior before letting them go, in both cases preferring to empty their trade value rather than let them leave with positive reputations in Chicago.
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I was thinking more along the lines of
Removing Cedeno or Fontenot out of the picture, (depending on lefty or righty) to acquire a “real” glove for the middle infield.
At the very least, we need a late inning defensive replacement, who can get an occasional start.
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
Late inning defensive replacement
doesn’t help the fact that our starters are having to get 10 outs every three innings and can’t go long into games and tax the ‘pen.
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Well... like I said
“At the very least, we need a late inning defensive replacement.”
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
Theriot is the one that needs to go....
DeRosa would have more range at SS. Theriot lets far too many slow hit grounders get into CF. Period. That just taxes our pitchers. Period.
by crazymountain on Jul 7, 2008 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Theriot as the pretty rainbows in the sky of the team .... SWL, if you could help me visualize this, I'd be in your debt.
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
Picture Ryan Theriot on unicorn
instead of Matt Murton
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
you mean...
Ryan Theriot’s a virgin TOO???
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions
That seems way too high.
I doubt even Beane thinks Harden is worth that, given his injury risk, and that you only get a year and a half of him.
Sigh...
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
it's his sig line
that’s the most ironic of all.
or at least laughable.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I've noticed his...
...convoluted attempt at humor in his new sig line, too. Ba dum tsss!
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Do you ever post anything worth reading?
Seriously, you add nothing to this board.
by dr stabbingworth on Jul 7, 2008 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
oh,
the irony…
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Just a guess
But I wonder if dr s goofed and meant to reply to someone else….
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 7, 2008 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
maybe.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
He may have been making a reference...
...to what MDBNIU said to me in the Sabathia thread last night. Only the good doctor knows for sure.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Join in next week,
when Dr. Stabbingworth says
“Wait, was was that again?”
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Pointless social drama. This has what to do with Rich Harden or Cubs baseball?
by dr stabbingworth on Jul 7, 2008 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
it's a Cubs Fan Community
read what you want to, don’t read what you don’t. Ain’t no one going to give BlueMike the benefit of the doubt, or let some poor newb think he’s some kind of expert.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
This is basically how I feel as well.
There are plenty of cold, sterile discussion boards out there you could read, doc. For me at least, part of what makes this place so much fun is all the different personalities involved.
Now, I’ll be the first to admit that I get a little carried away with my Captain Ahab-like obsession with pursuing the great white whale that is MDBNIU. But the joking around and brief tangents into off-topic areas are the spices that give the BCB soup its flavor, IMHO. (OK, the tangents aren’t always so brief.)
I respect your opinion, but I wouldn’t expect things to change much around here anytime soon.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
No, I didn't
I’m tired of reading the juvenille garbage that spews from the keyboards of certain users here when I’m trying to read about the Cubs. This place is like high school and posters like drewish are constantly filling the threads with jerky garbage. For a 38 year old, I’d be pretty embarassed to type the things that he types.
I like Al’s approach to moderation (which is very light), but the constant ridiculing of members here is childish at best. If you have nothing to post except ripping on another member for his opinions (whether right or wrong, no matter how vehemently he posts them) has NO PLACE HERE. I can’t read one post by certain members here without getting a slew of unrelated comments that should never be posted.
by dr stabbingworth on Jul 7, 2008 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm wearing new socks today!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
That's good advice
And I try to do that, but there is a pattern of harassment that ends up filling large percentages of threads and it is very frustrating to not want to come here when I know this is what I will read.
As a feature request, an “ignore user” option would be appreciated.
by dr stabbingworth on Jul 7, 2008 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
how about cow?
they like to throw those up here…
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 7, 2008 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions
not cow-tipping
but cow-tossing?
I dunno man. how much air are you gonna GET on one of those?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
cow pies
Not the whole cow!
Talk about a sore back . . . that would hurt!
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 7, 2008 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions
oooh!
Cow PIES.
Got latex?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, can't say that I want any part of it. Unless:
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 7, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I WILL TAKE NO PART IN THESE SHENANIGA---
oooh, MooChews!
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
wah wah wah
I post plenty besides reactions to BlueMike, and if you were a constant reader the way I am, you’d know that.
And really. Who is being “like highschool”? Do you want a hall pass?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
WOW
i mean i don;t have a problem with you posting what ever you want but this post is just bad
So you don’t have a problem, but you have a problem?
Do you have a caps key?
People find worth where they seek it. I’m pretty comfortable with my record here at BCB.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't have
a problem with your posts just no need for that last one. And I frankly don;t give a damn about your record nor would I take your opinion about yourself with any grain of salt.
so you're saying
you wouldn’t take it with a grain of salt?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
JUST SHUTUP
there is no need for you to continue to beat a dead horse
we got a live one here!
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Hey Drew,
just try to ignore these 2 newbies. They need to show that they actually know something about baseball. I ignore Blue Mike until I can take it no longer. The problem isn’t his ideas, it’s his attitude. If he actually had some modesty, and could admit when he was wrong, that might make a difference.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 7, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions
TELL ME WHY
AM i considered a newbie when i joined a month later then you and drew and niether of you shown you know or even care about baseball yiou just like annoying people
Well for one...
the “joined date” only refers to the “new BCB”....drew has been around for alot longer than you my good man.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Unsolicited advice
Let it go. A week from now, no one will remember this if you just drop it.
You’re wasting your own time having an argument with someone that you’ve never met on a purely subjective topic.
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 7, 2008 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
what we need is a game tonight...
so everybody can just get along…or this thread may never end!!
by maddux1-27-07 on Jul 7, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I hate off days
days with no baseball are just no good.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
i know, thats the problem
here its pouring down rain, so not helping there either, and im off my feet for 5 months with an achilles tendon injury, so im on here 24/7, OUR CUBS have been my lifesaver since april 17
by maddux1-27-07 on Jul 7, 2008 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
apology accepted
and i apolagize in saying stuff to you when Dr.Stab was saying thigs no need for me to get in the middle and post whatver you want
I hardly ever see you posting here.
I see drew, swl, sue, northsider, daver and the like here almost every day. To me that makes you a newbie. It’s not an insult, I’m a relative newbie as well. As far as knowing baseball, I know what I know, I know how many years I’ve studied the game, scoring every game possible, reading everything I can & making educated guesses, hypothesis, etc. I can’t speak to drew’s experience studying the game of baseball, but I know he realizes that Blue Mike is so far off base, it’s insulting to others here who actually understand & can admit when they are wrong. Enough said. By the way, if you want to question my knowledge of baseball, and esp. the Cubs, let’s get it on.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 7, 2008 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I never questioned anyones knowledge
i believe mine wasput into question and that is a big insult to me. I don;t know much but i know baseball
Ok my man.
You need to go back to where you typed that neither drew or myself know or even care about baseball. But that’s ok. It’s not my argument, and drew said he was yanking your chain a little too much. So, we can drop it?
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 7, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, I should apologize
I was yanking oeosoto’s chain a bit much there.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I anxiously await...
this exact reply to MDBNIU’s next post telling us that pitching is KING, and that we’re going to get swept in the first round of the playoffs.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Seriosuly guys, lay off MDBNIU.
I tend to agree with him on the fact that pitching decides the fate of a team, especially in the postseason. And I wouldn’t wan’t to face the D-Backs in a 3 game series with our current team, or face the Brewers who would be a WC team or possible NL Central champ.
It’s pretty simple. Acquire Harden, and you almost guarantee a playoff berth.
Devin Hester, you are rediculous! -Jeff Joniak
no you don't
but you do almost guarantee another starting pitcher on the DL.
I would happily face the DBacks with our team. We beat them before, we’ll beat them again.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know about "guarantee" anything.
Not one player brings you any closer to a player birth. Performance does. He does make our talent level alot higher. A rotation of Zambrano-Harden-Dempster -Lilly in the playoffs would be tough.
My new life, my new world, and my beautiful daughter:
Tamia London Davis: Due date (8-11-08)!
How about...
get Soriano back and continue winning at our current pace and make the playoffs anyway.
And nobody is disagreeing with MDBNIU about the importance of pitching…he’s just spewing a continuing fountain of posts saying the same thing and implying that the Cubs don’t have a chance in hell in the post season. We all understand (to the Nth degree) his opinion, most of us happen to just disagree about whether or not the Cubs are doomed.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly.
OF COURSE good pitching is paramount – particularly in the playoffs. OF COURSE the Cubs could use another top of the rotation starter. OF COURSE the Brewers are a good team that just got better with Sabathia. His points are hard to disagree with because they’re so frickin’ obvious. It’s his patronizing, condescending attitude that earn him our scorn.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
+1
...the ship isnt sinking, were in first place, we are three weeks from July 31st and were getting one of the best power hitting LF back in 7-10 days.
Lets keep winning and have some patience.
Hendry will do what’s neccesary when the time is right and the deal is right.
MDBINU has some reasonable opinions.
But hey, even a stopped cock is right twice a day.
I agree people need to stop baiting him though, just as he needs to stop being antagonistic, patronizing, and repetitive. Somehow I doubt either of those things will happen though.
But don’t cry for him ARAM FOR MVP. He’s so busy undermining his own arguments with his bad attitude that it really doesn’t matter whether his points are valid or not. And at any rate he won’t back up any of his opinions so good luck sorting out which of his ideas hold water and which ones just hold stale urine.
Umm...
a stopped cock is right twice a day.
There are typos…and then there are howlers.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
Well, MDBNIU did say...
...he’d give up his left nut for Harden. So Wreckard’s typo is really just keeping with the theme of this thread.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
I don't think Billy Beane
is interested in that as part of the package. Probably will just end up like another of the
Cubs underperforming prospects MDBNIU complains about.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2008 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Well said
the same people are always so quick to automatically jump on ANYTHING that MDBINU says that they miss the fact that he usually has intelligent opinions (even if I don’t always agree with them).
the anti-MDBINU rants REALLY start to seem juvenile and tiresome after awhile.
who's ranting?
None of this stuff is any different than what we would do to anyone else who posted the same thought 26 times in one day. And we have done it before…I recall a conversation about the wild card not being fair…and something about a “get together”....
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think his opinions are all that intelligent.
I mean, they’re not necessarily UNintelligent either. They’re just obvious, redundant and often inaccurate. If he would stop being so didactic and show a little humility and cordiality once in a while, he might get a little more respect.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
we don't miss anything
he doesn’t say anything that’s a revelation, he doesn’t say anything that’s unexpected, he doesn’t say anything that he hasn’t said before.
1) We need pitching
2) We don’t have the pieces we need to get pitching
3) I played college baseball, so listen to me.
He’s often wrong on the facts, he’s often wrong on intangibles, and he NEVER admits it.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn't agree with this
he usually has intelligent opinions
An intelligent opinion is one which can be supported. He just has opinions.
Wow!!! This is rich
coming from a guy who blasted an opposing team’s fan who posted in here on Sat. Nice, really nice.
OT:I say we trade Cedeno
and someone else to the BlueJays for Burnett and Eckstien this would replace the backup SS role for the short time while getting Burnett for something the Blue Jays want if you can’t get a SS in return for a Cedeno trade we should not do it
someone else?....Eckstien? Really?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions
What is wrong
with Eckstien as a backup if we can get Burnett for Cedeno and Eckstien for a crappy prospect why not?
You're suggesting that the Jays will give up both those guys...
for Cedeno and a “crappy prospect”?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Technically
Cedeno falls under that category too.
"Whoo, boy! Next time around, bring me back my stomach!" -Jack Brickhouse
Well he's not a prospect
...seeing as he has almost 3 years of service time.
And if you think he’s crappy then you made up your mind on him 2 years ago and there’s nothing I can say to change it.
Not saying he's a prospect
just crappy. Good defense, but I did not make my mind up on him two years ago. I made my mind up after two years of seeing bonehead baserunning, and a Patterson-esque approach at the plate. But if we can get something for him, I’m in. He’s more likely to move than Theriot, if for no other reason than Uncle Lou seems to love the kid.
"Whoo, boy! Next time around, bring me back my stomach!" -Jack Brickhouse
The Dodgers traded for the honor to play Angel Berroa at SS.
Cedeno’s value will surprise many Cub fans if he is traded. There is a ton of scarcity at SS right now in the MLs.
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Ryan Theriot's twin is on the trading block
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
If we got Eckstein...
We’d have to let Theriot go to them, because that’d be too much scrappiness for one clubhouse to handle.
"Whoever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" - Frank Chance
when the scrappiness quotient
of theriot equals the scrappiness quotient of Eckstein and they’re in the same place at the same time…
well. Women get weak in the knees, the price of corn drops and bullies give suckers to babies.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions
You're underestimating women.
;)
These are the saddest of possible words: "Tinker to Evers to Chance"
I know
it’s cuz they’re scrappy.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Eckstein + Edmonds = A Hollywood Troll/Hobbit
God I miss The Heckler’s Eckstein stories.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2008 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Eckstein is worse defensively than Theriot.
He looks like a softball player chesting the ball to first base because he has no arm to speak of.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jul 7, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
the arm whose name we do not say....
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Eckstein has Voldemort's arm?
If there’s no picture, it isn’t true….
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 7, 2008 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
eckstein?
I can’t see a single reason why we would want Eckstein even as a backup. He does not have a strong arm, he posses average range, he doesn’t take walks, and his average will be equal to or lower than Theriot’s. He might strikeout a few less times over the course of a season but I really don’t see him adding that much to the team. If your looking for a defensive specialist then Ecksteins the wrong guy.
If the Cubs got Eckstein...
my head would asplode…
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
Bullpen help too?
Anyone think that fortifying our bullpen will be important as well?
I all for Burnett or Harden (preferably Harden) but if the price is right…..why not Brian Fuentes or another solid LH reliever like Marte or someone else who may be availlable?
Having a lockdown pen will be almost as important as the rotation down the stretch. It would be awesome to have Fuentes along with Cotts from the left and Howry, Marmol and Woody from the right
There is
no way we can compete to get Fuentes the Rays want him and they have a deep deep farm system though, I would like him as well.
if the Bucs are willing
I’d love to have Marte if only to face fat ass Fielder later on
It's only a 9 PA sample, but Scott Eyre lifetime vs Prince Fielder:
9 PA, 1-for-8, HR, RBI, .125/.222/.500/.722
Cotts has never faced Fielder.
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
Bullpen
I think we could do fine with what we have now if Marmol Straightens things out. I expect Howry to be dominant in the 2nd half and I don’t see much reason why Wood should slow down. Fuentes would be a nice addition, but his numbers have not been great this season especially of late.
Harden and Haren
cannot have close to the same values if for nothing less than Harden’s injury history. I would pay what AZ paid for Haren, but I would not if Harden was the pitcher in return.
Formerly NO100
by jerry morales rules on Jul 7, 2008 2:32 PM CDT reply actions
Interesting on MLBTR
Jim Hendry Trade History
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/files/chicago_cubs_jim_hendry.xls
An education on Rich Harden
13 Games Started
77 IP
92 Ks
2.34 ERA
1.14 WHIP
Pitching
As his name suggests, Harden throws hard and has electric stuff. His fastball clocks near 96 MPH as the game begins, but he is one of those hurlers who gains velocity and later brings it at 99 MPH. With Harden mixing in a slider and a changeup, hitters find themselves overpowered, chasing the hard slider in the dirt or climbing the ladder for the fastball. The hitters who do make contact and fail are pretty well split between flyball outs and groundouts. He will need to work a little more on his control to reduce his walk total, but as a true power pitcher, Harden ranks among the top few in baseball.
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
how many times
has he been on the DL?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions
One more tidbit of info...
the Chicago Cubs don’t have enough in the way of players or prospects to trade for Rich Harden.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Tehy definitely have enough
It would be alot to give up and would be most of the farm system but they have enough to make a deal.
An education on Rich Harden (expanded edition)
April 10, 2008 Placed on 15-day DL (Right shoulder strain)
July 12, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Strained right shoulder)
April 23, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Right shoulder strain)
June 08, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Ligament sprain, right elbow)
April 28, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Strained back muscle, out 3-6)
May 15, 2005 Placed on 15-day DL (Strained left oblique)
The really scare injury is the ligament sprain in his elbow – that’s the ligament that results in Tommy John. Both of his scariest injuries came late in the season, which is also cause for concern.
No one is questioning that he is one of the best pitchers in the league when he is healthy. But if you’re going to take it on yourself to “educate” the readers at BCB you should really paint the entire picture.
Personally, I think it’s worth the risk, so long as that risk results in a lower asking price. A “Haren-like bounty” does not seem fair for a guy who’s been on the DL every season in the big leagues.
and look at the trends
he’s due to go back on the DL pretty darn soon—April to July. It’s July.
Cedeno, Murton, Hoff and Marshal. No Gallagher. No Pie. No Veal.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
The game the other day vs the White Sox
Harden was throwing around 91 or so and only got up to 94 on a couple pitches that he threw up and out of the zone…could have been having an off day, or he is on his way to going on the DL with an arm injury.
"Look at it this way: If you're a Cubs fan, the Greatest Day of Your Life is yet to come." ~ Cubs Forever
Harden is dominant
everyone undertands that. When he is healthy he is one of top 10 starters in the game and just took his first loss of the season yesterday. Question is are you willing to part with your enitre farm system for a guy who has a huge injury track record. Personally I would give up almost any player in our minor league organization for Harden for the simple reason that I don’t think almost any of them are future stars. If giving away patterson, pie, ceda, and gallagher is what it takes I think the risk is worth the possible reward which would be having an ace added to the staff.
I tend to agree...
Plus he isn’t a rental you’d have him for more than a year.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
The window of opportunity to win is NOW
The Cubs are built to win in the immediate. And if we don’t seize upon a lot of things already in our favor, then this will go down as one of most bitterly disappointing seasons of all time. In fact it will make 1969 and 2003 seem like walks in the park. We are a veteran ballclub getting peak performances from a number of veterans as well as career years out of several others. Plus the National League generally sucks. THIS is the year to break the 100 year losing streak. THIS is the year when you pull out all the friggin stops and do what it takes to enhance the 25 man roster.
Milwaukee has done us a great favor in that their acquisition of CC Sabathia is a wake-up call. Now lets react to the wake-up call.
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
Wait a minute...aren't we winning right now?
We’ve been in 1st place most of the year. We have the best record in the NL…are 3rd in the NL in ERA…4th in the NL in fewest hits given up and strike outs…lead the league in ERA+...lead the NL in offense, and are about to get our most dominate power hitter back…
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
yes!
THAT’S RIGHT! IT DOESN’T MATTER THAT WE’RE IN FIRST PLACE! IT DOESN’T MATTER THAT MILWAUKEE IS IN SECOND OR ST. LOUIS IS IN THIRD! WE NEED TO REACT! THEY’RE BETTER THAN WE ARE.
Don’t you go changin’, homeslice. You’d break your support structure.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I gotta say
I am somewhat with BlueMike here. It doesn;t have to be Harden but we have several unknowns in this rotation and the “other shoe” is technically ready to drop. I think this team needs to pickup another quality #2 starter. I thought this before CC went to MIL but I certainly think it now that that deal has gone down.
I like Bedard, I like Harden. I am okay with Burnett. Someone mentioned Harang and I like him a lot (not that he is available). We need starting because Soriano may take a while to pick up production, Marquis may not pitch well next time, Lilly could go sour now and then….
Calm down.
maybe.
Or maybe our pitching really IS as good as it looks.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Sometimes a cigar REALLY is just a cigar.
by crazymountain on Jul 7, 2008 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions
There is no way
the Marquis cigar is just a cigar. It will unravel eventually as we have all seen. This cigar came with a warning label to begin with and we now know.
Calm down.
I'm relatively certain
that we’re NOT relying on Marquis to get us to the post, and he WON’T be on the post season roster.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
If we're not relying on Marquis
this means we are relying on Marshall (who looked great yesterday), or perhaps Gallagher who IMO, is not ready to be a major league starter. So whether you are right about Marshall or you are right about Gallagher, I am not too too confident in our ability to sustain this pace. We need another starter IMO, period.
Calm down.
I'd say
that both Gallagher and Marshal have performed very well.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Marshall yes so far
Gallagher is just shakey man. Please tell me you see this. It is obvious but 6 inning 5 run starts does not a quality outing make.
Calm down.
His ERA as a starter is 4.45.
I think you’re overemphasizing a bad outing and ignoring the rest of his body of work. So far this year he’s outpitched Marquis, Lilly and Marshall.
Okay
further making my point that this team does need another pitcher. If a 4.45 era is “outpitching” more than half our staff then guess what, we need better pitching. If you think that this offense will sustain this pace another 80 or so games, you’re mistaken.
Calm down.
Oh?
Which players are regressing? To what? How many runs do you expect us to score the rest of the season, compared to our current pace? Why?
I may or may not be mistaken, but if so, it’s not going to be “because Kinky Reggae said so.” Try to substantiate your statements with something like “evidence” rather than “loud, repeated assertion.”
I'd rather not humor you
as my response will likely make me sound like Blue Mike apparently does to most here.
But I will say this,
I have watched Fukudome ’s BA drop quite a bit over this first half as pitchers are probably figuring him out about now and working him the way theu see best.
DLee has dropped off in BA as well and appears to be more streaky that last year which makes me nervous. I have watched most of this pitching staff go up and down (which will definitely happen on most teams but makes me nervous nonetheless).
Soriano is hurt again and we never know what this means.
Soto, DeRo, and Rami (despite a lower BA than I like to see from him) have been consistent.
Theriot has value IMO but no ne else thinks so.
Edmonds is hitting what .230 or something. He has been a good producer and I find myself liking his addition but still not running away with the triple crown or anything.
Ward, good off the bench finally. Fonty, whatever. Johnson I like.
These are also based on my opinion which brings me to the point I’d rather make here. What bothers me most about you Cwyers is you pretend like none of our opinions mean shit. We have to justify our opinions because YOU think stats are the only thing that matter. Spare me your bloated speech about how stats RE the only thing and hop doen off your soapbox and allow some of us to think rather than calculate. Your obsession with numbers maked you look like you have noability whatsoever to think for yourself. I guess that’s your problem though. I for one will stick with my opinions.
Calm down.
Everybody has opinions.
I have opinions, you have opinions – there’s plenty of opinions to go around. The problem is when you say things like:
We need another starter IMO, period.
or
If you think that this offense will sustain this pace another 80 or so games, you’re mistaken.
You are extremely certain about your opinions, and yet you offer little substantive to back them up. I’m not just talking stats, although baseball statistics are a very good way to do that kind of analysis – you could talk “stuff” and scouting attributes, you could make comparisons to other players, talk about other teams as a historical precedent, even talk about intangibles if you really wanted to.
But your entire argument boils down to “the Cubs need another starter because I am not comfortable with the ones we have.” And I’m sorry, but constantly repeating that doesn’t do anything to make your confidence level the main criteria we should use in evaluating ballclubs.
You can evaluate ballclubs however you want
it doesn’t change a damn thing for me. You also nicely glossed over the “facts” as I stated them regarding why I thing you are mistaken if you think this team will sustain.
Those too much of whatyou were looking for to continue to make you pompous arguments?
I gave you what you asked for but I say again, your narcissistic view on baseball and the Cubs in general downplays others opinions.
As many here have said before, I guess I thought on a public blog, I was entitles to my opinion, no matter how “certain” they are.
Calm down.
I will say
that Fukudome needs to hit 5th in this lineup, because of the frequency which Lee and ARAM get on base. He’ll probably see more strikes. I don’t believe Lee to be more streaky, because I think he was certainly pressing with Soriano out.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
Can't give you numbers as I don't even know if they exist
but Lee has just seemed to be less consistent this year. I could be wrong.
Calm down.
it's not like he does that
every start. It’s happened, what, once?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Z has just returned
we get Soriano back soon. July 31st is three weeks away. We maintained our lead through the toughest part of the season, injury wise (knock on wood). I think we can stand pat for another two weeks.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Seems like Hendry acted in the offseason
and forced Milwaukee to react to us. But now we have to react to the reaction? Then what if they react to us reacting to their reaction?
"Whoo, boy! Next time around, bring me back my stomach!" -Jack Brickhouse
"Sir
you can’t let him in here. He’ll see everything. He’ll see the big board!”
"Whoo, boy! Next time around, bring me back my stomach!" -Jack Brickhouse
Why? THEY have to catch us
and CC in the NL is an unknown. Hudson took a fall switching leagues. It is tougher to be a ballplayer than just a pitcher who doesn’t have to run the bases, just wait for his team to get their three outs and go back to the mound.
by crazymountain on Jul 7, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Per the Suntimes:
Or they could move to Plan C and call the San Diego Padres to inquire about veteran left-hander Randy Wolf, who commands Hendry’s respect.
As much as the Cubs covet Harden - and they have been working this deal for at least a month - Piniella likes having another lefty in his rotation along with Ted Lilly.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
Well, Wolf isn't that lefty....
Marshall is as good as Wolf and, it seems that our lost LH pitcher is seeing the light.
by crazymountain on Jul 7, 2008 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree.
I wouldn’t be excited about a Randy Wolf trade. I wouldn’t put to much into the Hill start though. I think he is a lost cause for this year.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
for northsider
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 3:32 PM CDT reply actions 12 recs
scraptacular.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Rec'd
Ryan Theriot: he has the heart of a tiger, the speed of the Pegasus, the consistency of the tides, and the defensive range of a gently drifting bubble.
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
How many recs does it take for one of these comments to turn green, anyway? I have NEVER seen it happen on BCB, and here we have 3 already.
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
I just made it four.
I’m not sure how many it takes to go green, though. I have seen it once – I believe it was one of dragonsfanatic’s posts.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
five.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions
six haha
Brian McRae's 5 O'Clock Shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jul 7, 2008 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions
funny Gallo article...
http://www.sportspickle.com/features/volume7/2008-0402-race.html
Brian McRae's 5 O'Clock Shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jul 7, 2008 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions
It should happen here more often.
For some reason people create “+1” posts instead of just recommending the post.
I think it might be 3.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Nope, see my other comment above. It had 3 but didn't turn green.
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
I used to Rec more
but realized I hardly noticed if a post had 1 Rec or anything under 4 recs. So, I started +1ing.
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
The problem with recommending posts is..
.... that it’s not obvious how to do it. You have to click “actions” then “rec”. We’ve asked the tech people to change this so you can more clearly recommend a comment, like you can a FanPost or FanShot.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I'll agree completely with MDBNIU on this one
Rich Harden is who we need right now, a frontline starter that will complement Zambrano in the playoffs, because now with the Sabathia acquisition there is a pretty good chance of a Cubs Brewers NLCS. Now I’m not saying the Cubs are a bad team, they aren’t. When Soriano comes back this team is as deep as you can get 1-8 position players on the field without an easy out in the lineup. The bullpen is solid with wood, marmol, howry at times. We desperately need to improve the rotation because the state it is currently in is not good enough to advance deep into october. We would have possible roadblocks of milwaukee, philly, az, and if we get far enough, the angels, red sox, or rays. All of which have better starting rotations than we do. I’m just saying, what happens if we lose game 1 with zambrano again. Is anyone extremely confident that dempster can counter in game 2, and if he is, lilly can come back strong in game 3? We need a front of the line starter like Harden to ensure we have a better chance of advancing come october. We can’t stand still here, we need to go out and acquire another starter. We have had to live with the heartbreaks of 1969, 84, 2003. And to add insult to injury the past few years watching the red sox end their own drought, the white sox end theirs, and watching the cardinals win another one. I don’t want to have to watch us fall flat again. Pull out all the stops necessary to help us win THIS year.
"This is why Major League Baseball does not need instant replay, because then every single play will then be reviewed." -- Joe Morgan, 5/18/08, referring to an umpire ruling a Carlos Delgado homerun foul when replays showed it hit the foul pole.
So Milwaukee, Philly and Arizona
all have better rotations than the Cubs do? Really?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 7, 2008 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Milwaukee does, Arizona does too.
And of course Philadelphia has Cole Hamels. So what’s your friggin point this time? Pull your ostrich head out of the sand and recognize reality.
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
And the Cubs have Zambrano
Would you rather have Z or Hamels? And Arizona’s great rotation has gotten them … what, a .500 record?
I am not going to pooh-pooh the Sabathia deal. It makes the Brewers a better team. But I think the Cubs have a better overall pitching staff than the Crew does, and that’s before Hendry makes a move.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 7, 2008 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I have to admit
I think the Crew has a better rotation. I’ll take our ace any day over theirs but their number 2 just leapfrogged ours. The rest coupld be considered a wash.
Calm down.
the reality, Blue Mike
is that we have the best record in the league, and we’re in FIRST PLACE.
If pitching were TRULY king like you keep saying it is, wouldn’t this not be happening?
You just can’t stand it. The Cubs are winning, and they’re not even ASKING YOU. How DARE they?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions
1st place on July 7th don't mean jack scratch
What matters is making the playoffs come the end of September. And what matters even more is actually DOING something material in the playoffs for the first time since 1945.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
and you think
being in first place on July 7th has NOTHING to do with that?
A win in june is as good as a win in september. In fact, I could argue that it’s BETTER, because it’s a win in the bank.
Good attempt at an answer, tho. You’ve got about 123558924742 other posts to reply to after this one; better get to work.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Did anybody say it's a bad thing to be in 1st place in July?
No. You’re a tool. A dumpy little tool from the Big Apple.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
you just said
it means “jack scratch”. You implied that it didn’t MATTER. Is there some kind of definition for that in BlueMike land where that means “hunky-dory”?
And when you resort to lies about my appearance, you’re really not gaining any moral high-ground.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually
you did post pics of yourself here so, he probably didn’t consider it an assumption. Not that you are dumpy…just sayin.
I normally go with Blue Mike but again I have to admnit some of his points have some validity. Wins are wins thoug, I just think that we are applying too much responsibility for a teams record, to our pitching. A pitcher can be real good and never get run support. And vice versa, a pitcher can just plain stink and still pull out wins due to a potent offense.
Calm down.
you think he clicked on that link?
interesting.
still. I’m a little round about the middle, but I’d hardly call myself dumpy. :D
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions
(Daver blows whistle.)
Violation of the name-calling rule! Fighters, please return to your neutral corners!
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Pitching will be
king in October, any way you slice it. And I’d suppose that scoring as many runs as they did, having the OB% they do, and as many walks as they have, has more to do with it.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
If Milwaukee
Philly and Arizona are roadblocks, why are we in first place?
Right now, I’d put Dempster up against anyone. He’s not a strikeout king, but he WINS GAMES.
Harden is an injury risk. I’ll trust the devil I know, and I’ll hope that Hill comes back.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions
We must be in first place...
because the Brewers haven’t had CC since the beginning of the year. Oh…and because the NL sucks. Having the best record in the NL is like being in 4th place in the AL West huh?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
apparently.
Oh, woe is us, cubs fans! That .595 record—it’s just a sham! Really, we suck. Suck suck suck suck suck. Oh, to be the DIAMONDBACKS… now THERE’S A TEAM…
Sheesh.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Hendry's going to get Harden, Burnett or Hudson
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
I talked to a knowledgeable Braves fan friend of mine.
He says no way Hudson is available.
by DGU on Jul 7, 2008 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions
And I say I don't believe him...
Atlanta is going to lose Mark Texiera and is need of replacing Tom Glavine, Mike Hampton and John Smoltz. Their best player Larry Jones is in his late 30s. Frank Wren and Bobby Cox have milked that puppy for all it’s worth. Very soon it will be time to wave the white flag and begin a full blown rebuilding program the likes they haven’t seen in Atlanta since the arrival of Tom Glavine and Steve Avery in the late 80’s.
I think the right package gets Hudson. I really do.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
what's that package?
Pie can’t hit major league pitching. Murton is “worthless”. So is Hoffpauer. So is EPatt.
You gonna trade Soto? Marmol? We already know you hate Woody, so maybe you’ll trade him, too.
You insist that we’ve got no blue-chip players to trade, and you insist that we’re going to make a move. You cannot have it both ways.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions
You're not saying those guys are all worthless right?
Just an imoression of BM? I hope because those statements are ridiculous.
Calm down.
I'm suggesting
that he can’t have it both ways. I think they Pie, especially has significant value—but I don’t want Pie traded because Edmonds can’t perform forever. I want Pie to be our centerfielder for five years at least.
He says we have to trade for a starter—but then says that we have no pieces to trade with.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Fair enough
I thought you were imitating him and if he said those things, I disagree strongly.
Calm down.
"Felix Pie cannot hit the broad side of a barn"
“Matt Murton is worthless”
He’s said both of those things. And much much more.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Everyone notice how MDBNIU never answers specific questions like this?
It really shows his lack of conviction in his own overblown opinions. Why have courage when you can hide behind condescension and negativity?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Keep repeating that and maybe someday it will be true
In the meantime, there’s no reason to believe that the Braves would go into anything other than “content next year” mode, and their 2009 plans almost certainly involve the cheaply-signed staff ace that is Hudson.
No one in the industry thinks he is going anywhere. No one in the press thinks he is going anywhere. Your suggestion that he is is as silly as some of the trade proposals on the boards that you so love to mock.
Puppy milk?
:)
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
I'm with you
I don’t know why you get so much crap from some of the people on this site, but I agree with you. If we don’t add pitching then we will probably “make” the playoffs and go home shortyly there after. I think more and more as I read these threads that this is more like a cult following of the Cubs that you have to have X amount of knowledge and a 100 year membership on this site to be recognized. I am almost embarrassed to have told some of my other friends/Cub fans about this site. Anymore, you have to have a PHD in baseball/Cub history to post anything without the possibility of a public execution. This isn’t rocket science. One ace won’t get you more than a pat on the back and one “atta boy”. If we don’t add pitching I think we go home early. Sure, we got the best record in the NL and have a 3.5 game lead over the Cardinals. Maybe another ace on our staff would have put us 8-10 games up instead of a mear 3.5? I don’t know. I think we need pitching. But then again, I am a “newbie”.
Who's saying the Cubs don't need another pitcher?
I think everybody is saying that. What we’re saying is that at least one pitcher (Harden) shouldn’t be considered because of his injury record, and that the pitching corps the Cubs currently have isn’t too shabby.
With all due respect, reading comprehension isn’t rocket science, either.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 8, 2008 1:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Most people are saying our pitching is just fine.
Majority of the people think that we are fine with what we have right now. Sorry, I don’t like what we have when facing a 5 game series. Unless Big Z pitches every game.
So you've counted the posts here and come up with that?
The majority of posters here believe that?
That’s what’s hilarious about this thread. Despite what drama queen MDBINU will tell you, there isn’t much disagreement with the notion that we shouldn’t get a better starting pitcher if we can. I haven’t seen one “don’t mortgage the future” post in here, or one “don’t get another starting pitcher, we’re better off with what we have!”
There is considerable disagreement about who to get. There is also disagreement with the Chicken Little claim that if we don’t get another starting pitcher we are doomed and don’t stand a chance.
I assume you are referring to me?
Sorry pal. No disciple of ANYONE. I just happen to agree with what he is saying this time. You, on the other hand, don’t really take stock in anything he says. You would rather just bash him whenever you get the chance. I could give two shits when he posts something that I disagree with. However, when he does post something relevant it would be nice to see some conversation instead of the constant bashing.
I think our pitching is fine
but certainly another starter would be good.
Can it be a starter who DOESN’T spend her time on the DL?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Sigh...
Your whole argument is based on the assumption that MDBNIU posts anything relevant, ever. He doesn’t. He just repeats the same truisms, generalities and cliches over and over while writing in a condescending, patronizing, Holier-than-thou tone. THIS is what earns him my scorn – and that of many others.
If you would read my posts (as well as those of many others here) a little more carefully, perhaps you’d realize that very, very few (if any) of us are stating that the Cubs don’t need another top of the rotation starter. Of course, they do. But why let the facts get in the way of talking down to us and saying things like, “This isn’t rocket science”?
The question, as Wreckard notes above, is WHO this “top o’ the line” starter should be and who Jim Hendry can/should trade to get him. Now if you care to calm down, get off your high horse and start naming names, I’m all ears.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
here's a question
someone mentioned that all Reds players are fair game in explaining why Harang was on a list for a poll.
Do we think that harang would really be available and if so, would the Reds actually trade him into the central division?
I think not but I like his stuff a lot!
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on Jul 8, 2008 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
The Reds GM put out a list of untouchables who he would not trade.
Harang was not on the list. So he is available, at least in theory.
But a follow-up question would be...
...should Jim Hendry give an NL Central team already stocked with young, dominating pitchers another young starter or two?
I realize the Reds have looked pretty pathetic so far this season, but think about it: They’ve got Volquez and Cueto in their rotation, and I believe Homer Bailey awaits another shot in Triple A. That appears to be three-fifths of a pretty good rotation.
Now throw Gallagher in there, assuming the Reds would want him as part of the package for Harang, and suddenly Cincinnati starts looking pretty tough. I guess this is where one would really have to weigh the “Win Now” approach against future competitiveness.
That said, I’ve always liked Harang. And picturing him and Big Z leading the charge for the postseason is certainly a pleasant thought. But I have a hard time seeing Hendry making this move.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Nice point
I think when you do put it that way, and question the win now mentality, one would say yes, an addition like that would allow this team to dominate (likely). I hear you on the young team gaining more pieces to their puzzle. Risk vs reward I suppose. I think I go for it if it puts a pitcher like Harang behind big Z.
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on Jul 8, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, it would definitely be a bold move on Hendry's part.
One complicating factor is that Harang appears to be having, for him at least, a down year. So far in ‘08 he’s at: 4.47 ERA/1.348 WHIP/.284 BAA (100 ERA+).
So the Cubs would essentially be trading away valuable prospects for a pitcher who is, as of right now, exactly league average. (107 ERA+ for his career.) I suppose the “change of scenery” argument could come into play here.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
I hate to be the one to make it
but with good run support, a competitive atmosphere, and better fans, his performances could improve.
Let’s get real though,the chances of this happening are slim but i was just thinking other options because to be honest, I like Harden’s stuff but his fragility scares me a bit. that physical would have to be some thoroughass workup!
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on Jul 8, 2008 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions
it's a competitive division.
although I continue to think that both the Brewers and the Cardinals are going to fade down the stretch.
But you have to put things in context. Yes, we only have a 3.5 game lead. But think about it. It’s what, 1.5 games less than the lead we had before we lost our all-star left-fielder, our ace, and both of our centerfielders to injuries for several weeks. We took our starting second-baseman and had him play four different positions—thus weakening our middle-infield significantly. We used to relatively untested young pitchers to start. Our thirdbaseman took three days off.
And we would have swept the Cardinals AT HOME if not for a single missed swinging-strike call.
Another ace on the staff would be great. But we SHOULD want another starting pitcher who isn’t going to have a high probability of ending up on the DL. Harden is NOT that starting pitcher.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually...
the scenario is better than that, but the division has gotten more competitive. Fonzie was placed on the DL back on the 12th. The Cubs were 3.5 games up on the Cards, 7.5 ahead of the Brewers.
The largest lead the Cubs have had all season is 4.5, and they got that after Soriano got hurt.
The Brewers are the one that took the most advantage of the injury problems. They jumped from 7.5 games back to a percentage point lead on the Cards.
I don’t really have a point, I guess. I just wanted to point out that the Cubs have done a pretty good job of treading water through this tough stretch of games.
I don’t know if you guys have seen it, but this is a pretty cool little site.
baseballrace.com
"Whoever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" - Frank Chance
Oops, the Brewers lost.
They’re 4 back now.
"Whoever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" - Frank Chance
This "other shoe dropping" nonsense
is exactly what I mean when I say Cubs culture has to change. A lot of fans almost expect the worst to happen to this franchise, that this season is too good to be true and that it will all go up in smoke soon. I understand there’s plenty of precedent for feeling that way. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to happen that way this season.
This fatalistic behavior on the part of a lot of Cubs fans has to stop. Although I think it’s funny a lot of them are pining for a pitcher who when it comes to injuries is cut from the Wood/Prior mould. You want to talk about history repeating itself? Rich Harden is Exhibit A.
I think this team could use another starting pitcher who’s an obvious upgrade from any of the front five we have now. Maybe that’s Burnett, maybe that’s Wolf. Or maybe it’s nobody. I think this is a pretty good team as it is, for the most part. It’s amazing how many Cubs fans don’t like a starting-pitching rotation that’s put up the numbers this one has.
Yes, I agree this is the year, and winning now is imperative. Maybe, just maybe, Hendry doesn’t have to do too much for that to be so.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 7, 2008 6:50 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
LSA
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions
100 year loser syndrome rears its ugly head AGAIN
Let’s rationalize to death and over-state our strenghts. Then let somebody like Arizona kick our teeth in like in 2007. Or San Diego in 1984. Or Florida in 2003. Nope, lets just stay all puffy chested and live in denial. Meanwhile Milwaukee and St. Louis (who did win their 10th World Series in 2006 are are 3 1/2/ games out) bitch slap us back to reality.
Typical Luvable Loser syndrome. Vastly overrate what you have and turn a blind eye to the shortcomings. It is shit like this why we are the laughingstock of baseball in good baseball cities (and on the Southside).
Diehard: All right, Hendry, let's see how you improve the ballclub mid-season.
Hendry: What coordinates, sir?
Diehard: [annoyed] Coordinates?
Hendry: Yes, sir, they determine where the the ballclub is...
Diehard: Soldier, the Cubs have spent a lot of money teaching you to fire off a trade. Now set and fire.
One deficiency
Yes, one. And that will be rectified, hopefully not by Harden, who is too much of an injury risk.
I can’t understand why a Cubs fan would advocate getting someone who could be Wood and Prior’s equal in DL stints served. For all the talking you do about “lovable losers,” you’re doing your level best to perpetuate exactly that.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 7, 2008 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Well unless you have snappy way to resurrect a 26 year old Sandy Koufax
and put him in a Cub uniform, then yeah I’m interested in the likes of Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or even AJ Burnett. Everything in life is a risk. But I’m willing to take a risk or two in order to enhance the ability to actually win a friggin World Series for the first time since 1908 ! It’s been 100 years of this crap and I have had the privilege of being live and in person for 31 years of the sad saga. No, I don’t live in fear of trading away are “vaunted” top prospects (I can’t say that with a straight face). Geovany Soto is the first quality everyday position player to be pumped out of this system since Mark Grace in 1989. That’s 20 years of “can’t miss” prospects and the “future of the franchise” who crapped out and left us with nothin. Felix Pie can’t hit the broad side of a barn. If some team is willing to accept him in a package for a frontline starting pitcher (or alternatively a box of athletic tape) then I ship his ass so fast he won’t have time to leave a skid mark. Ditto Donald Veal, Ronny Cedeno, Jeff Smardizija and a host of these other characters.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
Hudson and Harden
I would take Hudson over Harden just because he is more reliable (in terms of health), but obviously Harden is better than Hudson when he is healthy.
The problem with your Hudson theory is that he is under contract all the way till after the 09 season. The Braves would demand probably the same amount that Beane is demanding. Beane is willing to give up Harden due to the reason that he probably is at his peak value because in any start Beane knows that he could get injured. On the other hand, the Braves may be out of the playoff race (they could still come back, but I highly doubt it with Smoltz gone for a long time), but they will not give up Hudson that easily. Sure, they are going to lose Glavine and Smoltz next year, but the Braves always aim to be contender. Thus, don’t expect Hudson to be on the trade block.
Yes, the same STL team
the Cubs just took 2 of 3 from on the road and really should have swept.
Good God, you are a tiresome soul.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 7, 2008 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions
that win-loss stat
it’s a sabre-magician’s lie, right, BlueMike?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Dude these are not just assumptions...
Marquis has already shown us his shakey, bad side and we are only half way through the season. Last year he waited a while and fooled us. This year we don’t even get that! These are not assumptions or a fatalistic viewpoint. Dems is the fact yo. Lilly has looked bad at times, Demp has had a bad game or two. Gallagher is not ready IMO. Yes we can succeed but I think this offense is the reponsibilite party here. Remember “the comeback cubs”? That was not the rotation doing the coming back, it was this offense and they can tire too. We need another solid pitcher. No question. No Cubs culture here…not unless that means we are looking at this team realistically.
Calm down.
And no other teams' starters
aces, whomever, have had a bad game or two. None. Right?
I’m not saying the Cubs couldn’t use another starting pitcher. I am saying the Cubs have gotten to this point with what they have (and even less, since Z and Hill have missed time). And that I’m not going to cede the NL Central title to the Brewers just because they have Sabathia.
The Cubs are in first place. The sky is not falling.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 7, 2008 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree about the Brewers
I have said all along that they are still not the team to beat but getting another starter is just a good idea now. Not for no reason but how bout the fact that the deadline is approaching and the more waiting, the more chance other teams will improve while we stay the same. That is a simple mathematical equation…they get better, we stay the same=closer division that we want.
Calm down.
Burnett has been just as shaky as Marquis
His YTD ERA is higher – in his last 6 games he has given up more than 6 ER 3 times!
No I am not saying that Marquis is a better pitcher than Burnett , history tells us otherwise, but to suggest he would be a solid #2 is just inaccurate.
by madeindetroit on Jul 7, 2008 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions
ERA doesn't tell the whole story
Burnett’s peripherals are in line with his career numbers. That tells you he’ll probably progress back to the mean – in his case a pretty good place to be.
I don't know what peripherals are
but I will trust that what you are saying is true.
I still think my point about his inconsistency is valid.
by madeindetroit on Jul 8, 2008 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Personally I'm Hoping
that the Dodgers go on a like a 15-game losing streak so Derek Lowe becomes more realistic.
Eat More Katsui
I just don't understand why everyone is so against
picking up a pitcher. Almost all of us acknowledge that this is win now mode. We all know that pitching is very important. We would probably admit that MIL just got a lot better with CC so why is it so offensive to consider how to upgrade pitching. I am beginning to think that it is because we all want to disagree with BlueMike. I like that as much as the next guy but cmon people, more pitching would only be a bonus. I don’t think anyone wants to deal away key players but if Sean Gallagher goes, then so be it.
Calm down.
I think they're better
but not “much” better. 3 wins better. That might get them the WC, but it doesn’t get them the division.
I’d be happy to get another starting pitcher, but I don’t want a rental, and I don’t want a DL inmate.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions
LSA
And the histrionics perpretrated by some posters regarding this subject are hyperbole at its worst.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 7, 2008 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Nice cop out there NBF.
Histrionics huh? What a laugh. You are the one posting long lectures about this team being fine and when others post the opposite with, IMO, less dramatics and more simple statements, you call them histrionics. Okay pal…whateeeeeeeeever you say.
Calm down.
Cop-out?
What the he11 are you talking about?
For the most part, this team is fine. Did I not say it could use another starting pitcher? So long as it isn’t Harden, I don’t really care who it is, if it’s an obvious upgrade.
And if you think in-game comments like “this team is imploding” or “this game is over” in the second inning aren’t histrionics, I suggest you consult a dictionary, just to make sure you know the meaning of the word.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 7, 2008 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks anyway for the Psych 101 lecture...
as for those comments, I have no idea who says those things but to LSA my comment and add that tidbit, certainly appears to be a jab at something I said in the comment you were below.
I don’t really even join game threads but in this thread, I mainatin, you are a bit histrionic in your posts as well.
Calm down.
No histrionics here
Again, look it up in the dictionary.
I wasn’t necessarily referring to you in my LSA. Sorry if you interpreted it that way.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 7, 2008 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Histrionics
The enhancement of history through mechanized prosthetics and cybernetics.
Or something like that.
Eat More Katsui
huh?
he “loud sustained applause”-d my comment, that’s all.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions
He LSA's your comment and then said
“And the histrionics perpretrated by some posters regarding this subject are hyperbole at its worst.”
I don;t think it is odd to assume that has some relevence to my comment, the only one you were responding to. Read it through again…maybe you will see what I mean. Maybe not.
Calm down.
I'm pretty sure
he’s talking about Blue Mike. It’s been quite a day here, and you came late to the party (which is fine, but really, Blue Mike has gotten a lot of people on a hair trigger).
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
fwiw
I don’t think that comment was histrionic at all.
I think I disagree with you on Cwyres, but that’s just disagreeing.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I do appreciate that
and yes, I came late as I was busy today but in all honesty I am in a greement with BM and while scary, I can see that some here, I believe, would rather disagree with him and his points that just have a discussion about them.
The game thread comments though I suppose would bother me too.
As for Cwyers, I am tired of being told that my opinions on something don’t mean anything without the “proper evidence” that I am correct. I felt the need to call him out since he makes comments like he did above.
Calm down.
I have to point out the irony in something...
as I proofread that post, I had written “I came late as I was busty today”.
that after our “dumpy” conversation.
I also forgot to add though, disagrreing is fine, that os what we are here for IMO. UH OH, did I just express my opinion again??? Now I’m gonna get it!
Calm down.
Backing up your opinions is too much to ask?
And by that I mean, backing them up with something other than conjecture and more opinions.
There are other posters here who have driven men to the very brink of insanity by doing that time and time again. They’ve looked into the abyss and the abyss stared straight back and said “Guess hack hitter!”
I'm hardly BlueMike
but I suppose if that is someone’s opinion. As for backing it up, I did so with my observations of players on this team.
My problem is that when I do simply state my opinion, and claim nothing more than just that, I get called out by Cwyers.
Calm down.
I Do The Same
Most of my observations are based on my perceptions alone. Very little statistical research applied. In fact that’s why I bailed on NSBB – not because I hate statistics, but because I fail to understand the obligatory smugness with which the numbers are divulged.
Eat More Katsui
rofl
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Too many on this blog just did get it
Unfortunately there is shrinking minority who have quality grasp on matters. The rest are beholden to the National League Central standings as of July 7th or the cumulative statistics of this team to date. They lack the fundamental ability to see that a rotation that includes Ryan Dempster, Ted Lilly, Jason Marquis and the Seans is not the stuff of a playoff caliber team. In fact a rotation like that wouldn’t even muster enthusiasm in a place like Kansas City. So NO, our starting rotation isn’t good enough under current configuration.
A lot of the posters here fail to understand the extreme urgency of the 2008 season. If ever a team was built to win now, it is this one. Add to that a 65 year old manager in place and the fact that a slew of players are enjoying the best production season they are likely to experience here on out in their career. And you can also point to the miraculous season of Kerry Wood. His arm is a mess, but the fact that he has morphed into a quality closer is yet something else that needs to be taken full advantage of right now before the gremlins once again overtake his physical well-being.
And God forbid what happens if the new owner is a real prick and tries to milk the Cubs for every bloody penny he / she can in order to pay down their debt service and eventually feather their own nest. Don’t laugh. A few years ago they all liked new owner Bill DeWitt in St Louis too. Then DeWitt pulled a 180 and dramatically shaved the payroll and dumped the mastermind behind the whole operation in Walt Jocketty.
WE GOT TO WIN THIS THING IN 2008. It’s as simple as that. That means the addition of a frontline starting pitcher and at least one quality arm for the bullpen.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
reruns.
I hate reruns…
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Just an honest question...
If this team went into the playoffs today without any additions what so ever, do you actually think they have a reasonable shot to win a world series?
"This is why Major League Baseball does not need instant replay, because then every single play will then be reviewed." -- Joe Morgan, 5/18/08, referring to an umpire ruling a Carlos Delgado homerun foul when replays showed it hit the foul pole.
by CubsBall2202 on Jul 7, 2008 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Getting out of the national league will be tough enough
Winning the world series is the ultimate goal, and facing anyone of the red sox, rays, white sox, angels, etc would be extremely tough with out rotation as it is now. We already saw what happened against the rays, and also to a below average orioles team at home.
"This is why Major League Baseball does not need instant replay, because then every single play will then be reviewed." -- Joe Morgan, 5/18/08, referring to an umpire ruling a Carlos Delgado homerun foul when replays showed it hit the foul pole.
by CubsBall2202 on Jul 7, 2008 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
every team
loses games. Even the 1927 Yankees lost games.
We can take the Rays. We can take the Red Sox. We DID take the White Sox.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes they do
however, saying we can take the rays when we did nothiong that even resembled that in the series against them is a dangerous assumption IMO. I agree this team is great, I just think we are not the only great team out there and the others are trying to bolster their rotation and/or lineups.
Calm down.
Without our power hitting leadoff hitter...and our ace (for the balitore series).
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Y.E.P.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions
yes.
I will put the Cubs up against any other team and expect them to win. Pete’s sake. You’d think we were in third place, eight games back.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Pennant Seems Winnable
Let’s say that the current four top clubs – Cubs, Phils, DBax, and Brewers – make the playoffs. In that case it’s anybody’s flag to win. All four clubs have weaknesses so there’s no one dominant team that would steamroll the others. Don’t know if the Cubs could beat the AL representative, as it seems the AL is stronger.
Eat More Katsui
Here's the fun part....
NOBODY knows if the Cubs could beat those teams…which is why the only way to find out is to make the playoffs and see.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions
'Zactly
It’s really anybody’s race. Gonna drink plenty of Maalox starting in September!
Eat More Katsui
I think it's going to be
a hell of a lot of fun. Certainly, having the great record at home early in the season will help.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Reasonable shot? I'm not sure
If I were an objective betting man with no allegiance to any team then I would wager on Boston, Tampa Bay and the White Sox over the Cubs. I’m not quite sure what to make of the Angels right now. Are we the best team in the National League? I’m not sure about that either. Again, if I had no allegiance to any team and was forced to place a bet? Then my money (right now) would be on Philadelphia being the team to beat in the NL.
I’m concerned about our starting pitching in a short series. I’m also concerned about our bullpen, which in my eyes is grossly overrated once you get past Wood, Marmol and the revitalized Cotts. And my disdain for Alfonso Soriano is well documented. Remember how he vaporized in the Arizona series? So yeah, I would like the chances of Cole Hamels, Brad Lidge, Ryan Howard, Jimmy Rolens and Chase Utley if the playoff series were held right now.
But I’m a Cub fan. So if I do attach my allegiance to things then I’ll fool myself into thinking we can beat any of those AL and NL teams right now.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 7, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your concerned about OUR pitching staff...and your picking the Phillies as the NL favorites?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions
the Phillies.
The Phillies? the Phillies who just lost three in a row to the METS?
No Cubs fan, you who idolizes coaches on other teams. You live to see Cubs lose.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions
You're the worst kind of Cubs fan...
...if you’re one at all. One who lives in perpetual terror of other teams.
The Phillies have a good club, no doubt. But Cole Hamels is one (1) pitcher. Brad Lidge is one (1) closer. And Howard, Rollins (note correct spelling) and Utley can go into a slump just as quickly as Soriano, Lee and Ramirez. Ryan Howard is particularly prone to the strikeout.
Would the current Cubs lineup be guaranteed to beat the Phillies in the postseason? Of course not. But they’d hardly be guaranteed to lose either.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
Completely agree
The only reason people say the rotation is good is because the offense has been able to make it a moot point because they can make up for the average outings by the starters. That won’t be the case in october when were facing ben sheets, webb, hamels, etc. instead of the usual clowns we beat up on like gorzelanny, zach duke, todd wellmeyer, kyle loshe. We will be facing excellent starters in october, and the offense might not be up to the task we don’t know, but our pitching sure as hell must be if we want to have a chance
"This is why Major League Baseball does not need instant replay, because then every single play will then be reviewed." -- Joe Morgan, 5/18/08, referring to an umpire ruling a Carlos Delgado homerun foul when replays showed it hit the foul pole.
by CubsBall2202 on Jul 7, 2008 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions
we haven't faced
excellent starters so far?
That can’t be right, I know it can’t… The NL Central and NL West and NL East cannot go from suck to AMAZO just because it becomes October.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions
We haven't necessarily beaten those great starters
We did beat Haren but he pitched a hell of a game that day too. Hamels and Myers in Philadelphia overpowered us. We have not been able to beat Sheets yet. Hopefully we can pick it up against these starters as the year progresses
"This is why Major League Baseball does not need instant replay, because then every single play will then be reviewed." -- Joe Morgan, 5/18/08, referring to an umpire ruling a Carlos Delgado homerun foul when replays showed it hit the foul pole.
by CubsBall2202 on Jul 7, 2008 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Because it was our pitching that got us beat last year....
not the offense completely evaporating away.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Look at our performance in relative low scoring games the past two weeks
It’s not a pretty picture. When the offense is hitting on all cylinders it has had obvious positive impact on the rotation and bullpen members. But when we’ve been in closely contested ballgames our pitching has not performed well under the pressure. We got a rotation loaded with average types who let their hair down when they’re staked to a quality lead. But when it’s tight? Then it’s been pucker up and implode time.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
The first St. Louis was a close game.
the second was arguably closer—it teetered and fell on a single uncalled strike-swing.
We’ve won plenty of close games. Ryan Dempster, Sean Gallagher, Ted Lilly, even Jason Marquis and the bullpen have given us good quality. Not perfect, no. But no team is perfect.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2008 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh. Boy.
a rotation that includes Ryan Dempster, Ted Lilly, Jason Marquis and the Seans is not the stuff of a playoff caliber team.Really? So when we make the playoffs…you say you were wrong?
a rotation like that wouldn’t even muster enthusiasm in a place like Kansas City.this comment is known as “method acting”
a slew of players are enjoying the best production season they are likely to experience here on out in their careerYeah…Ramirez can’t possibly hit better than he has so far. Fukudome best year ever will be his inaugural one, don’t ask why. Soto is a flash in the pan. Derrek Lee is washed up. Soriano, injuries will make it offical—-all downhill from here on out.
His (Kerry Wood’s) arm is a messMessy messy arm…that’s leading the NL in saves. Somebody clean up this mess!
...before the gremlins once again overtake his (Kerry Wood’s) physical well-being.At first I thought MDBNIU was talking about Rich Harden, but then I read a little closer. Reading IS fundamental.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I won't go ove rthe top like that but
I will say that whenever a team is rolling as the Cubbies have been, I think that posisitve additions will not hurt the chances. Marquis and the Seans realy cannot get cresit for the record thst the Cubs hold. The Seans are recent additions and 1/2 of them, IMO, have not done a great job as a starter. Marshall has been great so far ans I truly hope he can sustain because he is a perfect #5. Marquis…well, do we ever know what we are going to get with him? That is not a ? I want to take into the playoffs.
Calm down.
Agree That The Future Is Now
Lots of thirtysomethings on the roster, and not as many blue chip prospects down on the farm as, say, the Brewers or Rays or Dodgers. And to get a front-line starter, the Cubs would have to surrender what few young standouts they have.
The downside is that we would be committed to the same group trying to bring it home in 2009 if 2008 isn’t meant to be – assuming Dempster re-signs. Could this same group maintain the same level of production next year?
Eat More Katsui
How about this...
Jeff Francis, Manuel Corpas, Josh Fogg, and Matt Herges. If you would have told me that those four names would be a World Series pitching staff, I would have projectile vomited all over my lap. We need pitching, or course, who doesn’t? Harden would sort of be like me taking out $1,000 at a casino, in the hope of winning enough to pay off my college loans. Can it happen sure, is it likely, no. Is it a smart gamble, hell no. Neither is Harden.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
That rotation was good enough to make it there.
Take a look at the rotation that won it, and there bullpen and get back to me
"This is why Major League Baseball does not need instant replay, because then every single play will then be reviewed." -- Joe Morgan, 5/18/08, referring to an umpire ruling a Carlos Delgado homerun foul when replays showed it hit the foul pole.
by CubsBall2202 on Jul 7, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions
So they cheated to get there? What are you taking about?
Like the College WS Champs? They didn’t “deserve” to be there…that’s what the TV guys kept saying. The Diamondbacks should have filed a protest with the Commissioner’s Office! Teams that aren’t good enough shouldn’t be able to make it to the WS!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions
It hurts to think about all of those terrible throws...
by madeindetroit on Jul 7, 2008 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Back then...
I was a Tigers fan all the way – I even got to go to the last game of the World Series.
Now, without question, I would root for the Cubs, but I really have no desire for them to play each other in the series (except I would have tickets to all the games at Comerica).
by madeindetroit on Jul 7, 2008 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions
If It Was Tigers-Cubs In 1984
I would have had no need to watch another baseball game ever. Mt. Everest would have been successfully scaled.
Eat More Katsui
lol
It was probably the ‘84 Tigers that made me a Cubs fan. I got so into baseball and the Cubs were the team that was on TV all the time.
by madeindetroit on Jul 7, 2008 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Getting back to you...
Beckett- low 3 ERA, Zamrano will be right there
Schilling, high 3 ERA, All indicators show Dempster being there, or close.
Dice-K 4.40 ERA, no reason Lilly won’t get there.
Certainly I’d chose the Sox rotation compared to ours, but you’re making it sound like its a Hall of Fame staff versus San Quinten Prison Giants.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
It
was a reply to the reply two above…i’m an idiot and did not reply correctly
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
The over-dramitzation in order to attack me has ruined the debate
Tell you what. Remove the venom for me and objectively examine the situation with your own eyes. If any one of you can say with a straight face that a rotation that rounds out with Dempster, Lilly, Marquis and the Seans is plenty good enough to achieve World Series glory then go for it. If you can say with a straight face that the bullpen is deep and effective then go for it. And if you can make objective argument for the fact that this veteran laden lineup isn’t collectively speaking at the zenith of its production then go for it too. You all have convinced yourselves that 2008 doesn’t have a sense of urgency attached for the Cubs.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
The Cubs are 3rd best in the league in runs allowed
There are places to improve but our pitchers are better than many think. They’d be even better if they had a SS and not two 2Bs one of whom has to take infield practice at three positions and OF practice, too. Improve the defense and you improve all the pitchers and rest the bullpen.
You're one of the precious few with intelligence on subjects
A big problem with our rotation that is starting to exasperate itself is the fact that, outside of Zambrano, we are overwhelmed with 5 and 6 inning pitchers. Simply put, we aren’t blessed with the caliber and depth of bullpen to support a 162 games of this. Let alone have that bullpen be in a sufficently rested state to then go into playoff mode. We’ve already seen Carlos Marmol hiccup. We’ve also come to recognize that Bob Howry is no longer is old reliable self. Scott Eyre alternates between being crap and spending time on the DL at this point. Michael Wuertz is wholly unreliable, hence why Sweet Lou keeps pushing him further down the depth chart. Jon Lieber was a nice experiment in a long-man for a time, but of late he hasn’t instilled much faith.
So this is yet another point that reinforces the critical need to add a frontline starting pitcher and at least one good bullpen arm.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
Agreed
We need to add a pitcher who can at least pitch into the 7th at a consistent rate and be effective at that
"This is why Major League Baseball does not need instant replay, because then every single play will then be reviewed." -- Joe Morgan, 5/18/08, referring to an umpire ruling a Carlos Delgado homerun foul when replays showed it hit the foul pole.
by CubsBall2202 on Jul 7, 2008 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions
and if we....
don’t give up outs they won’t last longer?
But a number of these pitchers
have a history of going more innings than they have been going this year. Why? I believe it’s not the pitchers so much as the guys who aren’t making outs behind them.
this makes no sense.
Scott Eyre had a huge run of appearances where he didn’t even give up a run. Howry picked up slack for Marmol, and Marmol has returned to form. Lieber has had an opportunity to show that he can go three innings at least twice now.
YOU PROVE NOTHING. You back NOTHING UP.
Also, because you’ve made the same mistake twice now:
exasperate: 1 a: to excite the anger of : enrage b: to cause irritation or annoyance to2obsolete : to make more grievous : aggravate
synonyms see irritate
exacerbate: :to make more violent, bitter, or severe
For example: “Blue Mike’s continued misuse of statistics and the word ‘exasperate’ only served to exacerbate the BCB members’ exasperation with him.”
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions
objectively examine the situation with your own eyes.
What makes you think we haven’t? Fact after fact after fact…and some (gasp) statistics have been put fourth to make our points. You just think we are doomed unless we get a #1 or #1A pitcher. Some of us think that what we have is enough. I don’t think anyone is saying that getting another starter would be bad. And yes, most everyone wants to win NOW, so stop holding up that straw man.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
...so stop holding up that straw man.
If he wasn’t holding that thing he wouldn’t have anyone to argue with.
A lot of people have well-informed opinions on the Cubs rotation. Most of them, myself included, agree we should at least try to get another starter.
But anyone who thinks the season is lost without one is playing chicken little.
But of course, rather than respond to any of the good points made in the thread, MDBINU would rather kick the hornets nest by starting another root post, replying to no one in particular, arguing against points that no one has made.
Sometimes I think he would do this whether there was anyone else here or not.
You miss the point
It’s not that “everyone wants to win NOW.” Rather it’s that we HAVE to win NOW. This team in nearly every dimension is constructed for 2008 success.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
Other than that, Piniella was brought here to win NOW
All of the free agent signings that we have made during his time here will be useless unless we go out and acquire a top line starter right now to complement this team and give us a better chance of ensuring success for late october
"This is why Major League Baseball does not need instant replay, because then every single play will then be reviewed." -- Joe Morgan, 5/18/08, referring to an umpire ruling a Carlos Delgado homerun foul when replays showed it hit the foul pole.
by CubsBall2202 on Jul 7, 2008 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions
and what will happen if this team...gulp...
doesn’t win it NOW?
Will the women and children be spared?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2008 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Women & Kids Will Be Fine
Hopefully the Cubs can still be competitive in 2009 while Vitters, Samardzija, etc ripen on the vine.
Eat More Katsui
because, of course
everyone is signed to a one-year contract.
Lee will be back. ARAM will be back. Soriano and DOME will be back. Z will be back. Soto will be back. Hopefully, Pie will return.
Even Lou will be back.
The 100 year curse may haunt you, but it’s so much superstition for the rest of us.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions
it's already been done, Blue-Mike.
But I’ll say it. We can win the World Series with this team, as it is, no changes.
It’s like the games already played don’t MEAN anything to you. You’re so scornful of statistics, you have nothing to depend on but your own, consistently wrong, gut.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Teixera doubles to break the perfect game
"This is why Major League Baseball does not need instant replay, because then every single play will then be reviewed." -- Joe Morgan, 5/18/08, referring to an umpire ruling a Carlos Delgado homerun foul when replays showed it hit the foul pole.
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