Gary Hughes is scouting the Padres
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 8, 2008 1:05 PM CDT
281 comments
According to a report in today's San Diego Union-Tribune, Gary Hughes (asst. to Jim Hendry was at Petco Park last night -- witnessing Greg Maddux's strong performance. (Still, it was loss -- Maddux's 11 th straight start without a victory since he won on May 10th.) Maddux went 6, giving up 4 hits, 2 earned runs, walking 1 and striking out 3 in the Punchless Padres 3-1 loss to the Marlins.
Maddux is now 3-7, with an ERA of 3.90 in 112 innings. 56 K's, 22 walks.
The Padres beat writer speculates that either Maddux or Randy Wolf, who will pitch tonight are both being considered as being involved in trade deals with the Cubs.
Wolf is 5-8, with an ERA of 4.59. He's lost 4 in a row, with an 8+ ERA in those starts -- however, in two of those games, he allowed only 2 earned runs. The Pads were outscored 26-6 in those four losses. (Wolf is 3-12 lifetime against the Marlins.)
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Yes on Maddux, no on Wolf.
My position on this is well known and hasn’t changed.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jul 8, 2008 1:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I definitely agree about Wolf...
...but I’m still waffling on Maddux.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes to the professor for Marquis and still yest to Harden too
As for Greg Maddux, yes to him so he can rub off on the Sean’s and prepare the rest of the staff mentally for the playoffs as the 5th starter. Trade Marquis in a money deal, Cubs would have to add another throwin…but Maddux is due roughly 47% of his $10M contract, and Marquis is due $9M next year and 47% of his 6M this year. Send SD consideration for Marquis’ balance and call it even.
That still does not diminish the need for a top of the rotation starter ala Harden.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
by Ivy Walls on Jul 8, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What makes you think San Diego would want Marquis?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
it’s pretty obvious they’re masochists already—after all, they still actually PLAY the game… :P :P :P
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you might be able to convince them
that PETCO could mitigate some of his shittyness.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow
I’m not sure Petco can fix that
by denvercubbies on Jul 8, 2008 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...
We already have a better version of Wolf in Sean Marshall.
by crazymountain on Jul 8, 2008 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would like Maddux's numbers
I just think its time to let him go. He was great in Chicago but I think bringing him back for a 3rd time would be a little much.
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 1:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What good would getting Greg Maddux do?
No team is going to be afraid of him. And we all know that it’s the fear of ROYAL PITCHING that wins games.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 8, 2008 1:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
if he strip-pitched
ie, took off a piece of clothing for every hit (every run?) then maybe people would be more afraid…
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
PITCHING IS KING!!!
AH-HAHAHAHHA!!! PITCHING IS KING!!! (Daver falls to the floor cackling insanely.)
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will be more excited when I hear that the Padres asst GM
is scouting Jason Marquis.
by DGU on Jul 8, 2008 1:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for spoiling this
Will do a long post later but a few bits. There is one big mistake. It was ONE EARNED run last night thank you. The OTHER run was an error by our friend Myers no hit , no field SS Green.
Now this is a SHORT version. Maddux and Wolf are for back end rotation ( I will expound
on my theory on how we can get “rid” off Marquis later). There is no question Maddux
would be a BIG improvement. Guess what no one was EVER afraid of him , his job is
to get guys OUT which he still does fine. Petco or no you should have seen him last night
and it is not like the Marlins are bad hitting team.
Anyway more later
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 8, 2008 1:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I just want to note that Gary Hughes...
...lives in (and works out of) Southern California; he didn’t have to travel that far to go see the Padres, and likely sees them in the course of normal coverage every so often. Teams are always scouting other teams.
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 1:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he just wanted to see Greg
get his 351st win.
More seriously – he may have been watching someone other than Maddux if he was scouting. There’s also Khalil Greene.
by DGU on Jul 8, 2008 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do not TOUCH Greene
He is batting worse than ANDRUW Jones and committing a lot of errors Something is wrong with him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 8, 2008 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If by "a lot of errors"...
...you mean “three fewer than Ryan Theriot,” then sure, Khalil Greene has committed a lot of errors. What makes this even more impressive is that Greene has committed fewer errors than Theriot while recording 54 more zone rating outs.
And that thing about batting worse than Andruw Jones is simply not true in any conception of batting that I can figure – he has a higher batting average, OPS+, Runs plus RBIs… what on earth are you even talking about here?
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Should have qualified the Andruw Jones thing
Actually the stat I was freaking on was Khalil with runners in scoring position. He was
batting .083 before he made an out last night so it has gone down but in fact he IS just
ahead of Andruw. Seriously have you watched him this past month . He is PUTRID.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 8, 2008 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, RISP.
In other words, a split with no predictive value. Gotcha.
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You sir, are a man amongst boys
when it comes to stats. I have been reading posts on this site for a few years and on GROTA and I cannot think of anyone with the grasp on stats that you have. It really is amazing and makes me wonder where you get all the free time.
That being said, I would like to curse you for making me look at Theriot in a more rational way and ask you never to do the same to DeRosa.
"I'm not giving him a high-five ever again." - Sammy Sosa, joking about Moises Alou's personal habits
by MorePiePlease on Jul 8, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mark DeRosa is awesome.
He’s having an oustanding year on offense, playing defense well at second base (and elsewhere), and is probably in the top five second basemen in the NL, if not MLB.
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes he is.
Now if my girlfriend would just appreciate him for the same reasons I do and not her own reasons I’d be perfectly happy.
"I'm not giving him a high-five ever again." - Sammy Sosa, joking about Moises Alou's personal habits
by MorePiePlease on Jul 8, 2008 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Greene would mean more than any starting pitcher
just by covering ground that Theriot doesn’t…..
by crazymountain on Jul 8, 2008 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
I know that Greene can be a maddening hitter, but he’d clearly be a HUGE defensive upgrade over Theriot.
by bluekoolaide on Jul 8, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And given the balance of the season
there’s a decent chance he hits better than Theriot for the rest of the season, too.
by DGU on Jul 8, 2008 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought he lived in the Bay Area
''Listen, losing Soriano is no box of chocolates.'' ~Lou Piniella
by JohnM on Jul 8, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
This SF Chronicle article from today says so … in reference to his scouting Harden recently.
If he just wanted to take in a game last night, Oakland was playing at home.
''Listen, losing Soriano is no box of chocolates.'' ~Lou Piniella
by JohnM on Jul 8, 2008 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NorCal
Gary Hughes lives in the Bay Area.
Donut jokes are not funny. They're way past funny. They're frickin' hilarious.
by MaTheMeatloaf on Jul 8, 2008 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes on Mad Dog
He wont surprise anyone or over power them but he is very consistant and is still one the greatest pitchers in this era. He will give us big innings when we need them. He can handle the bat as good as anyone. If we dont need him as a started he would be a great long and middle relief guy. And I think we could get him for little to nothing.
by pickupman21 on Jul 8, 2008 1:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No on both
I’m ok to continue sending SD our crap but I really hope Hendry can do better than that in terms of what he brings back.
Go ahead, Z me.
by tony412 on Jul 8, 2008 1:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
reaching a ways here but
would the Pads in such dissaray would Peavy ever become available?
by plenz on Jul 8, 2008 1:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Probably not
but they might trade us Prior.
by DGU on Jul 8, 2008 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he hasn’t been delegated to be used as spare parts for other pitchers yet?
"Look at it this way: If you're a Cubs fan, the Greatest Day of Your Life is yet to come." ~ Cubs Forever
by IvyOnTheWall on Jul 8, 2008 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
other than that
Maddux….........No
Wolf…..............No
by plenz on Jul 8, 2008 1:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Iffy
I would say no on Wolf, a definite no actually. Maddux however is one of those guys that you can never quite say no to. Look, he is not the Maddux of old, but he is also only getting 3.35 of run support per game. He is also a great guy to have in the clubhouse, as we all know.
Look, do we need another ace? That is the question. Would I like to get Harden? Sure, probably. But what are we going to give up for him? Maddux would probably come pretty inexpensively. Look, Z and Dempster have been great all season. Lilly has turned the corner. Even Marquis has been pretty good recently. I think Maddux would be a perfect fit as a number 4 type of guy.
They call me MISTER Fukudome!
by brokenland on Jul 8, 2008 1:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
As I said in my original post aboiut Maddux in May...
... he may not be the BEST pitcher out there, but he is the RIGHT one.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jul 8, 2008 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand your use of this line. Pepsi may not be the BEST cola out there, but it is the RIGHT one.
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
by northsider on Jul 8, 2008 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Irrelevant comparison.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jul 8, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a comparison, Al, it's a commentary on the logic.
“Greg Maddux is the RIGHT pitcher” is meaningless. I believe we’ve gone through this already. “I think Greg Maddux is the right pitcher” is fine, but you state it like it’s an unassailable fact. Lots of folks believe the opposite.
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
by northsider on Jul 8, 2008 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, it's my opinion.
I figured people knew that.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jul 8, 2008 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and if you don't like it
well, he has others.
:P
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha.
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
by northsider on Jul 8, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference between Want and Need
we all may want to get some fireballing ACE like Lincecum or Webb. But do we NEED it. We have a rock solid team. We’re in first place. We need a couple of tweaks. And one of those is a back end starter, not a 1-2-3 guy.
They call me MISTER Fukudome!
by brokenland on Jul 8, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
We are overloaded with back-end starters. What we have screaming need for is a frontline starting pitcher who preferably throws hard. Our second need is another high grade bullpen arm.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+2
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
by Bump Bailey on Jul 8, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we don't have
ANYONE like Maddux. There’s only ONE Maddux.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
ur talking about the 08 version ?
or the 1995? version?
by plenz on Jul 8, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
any version.
I’m not suggesting he’s a lights-out pitcher. There are significant intangibles when it comes to Maddux that no one else brings.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Highly underrated.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bought some when I was in Toronto
True story.
''Listen, losing Soriano is no box of chocolates.'' ~Lou Piniella
by JohnM on Jul 8, 2008 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok
like the intangibles in 04? no playoffs
or in 05….........no playoffs
or in 06?............no playoff berth
last year…......ooops! no playoffs again!
I like the guy as much as any but we need a frontline guy…......at this popint he’s just a guy
by plenz on Jul 8, 2008 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he can't
make the whole team be good.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You talking about Maddux?
Yes, he did go to the playoffs in 2006, with the Dodgers.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jul 8, 2008 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I stand corrected!
But…........4 IP 7hits and 4 ER does not give me alot of playoff confidence
I do agree however….....that if he’s cheap I’d take him but not in lieu of a power arm like Harden or Burnett
by plenz on Jul 8, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you think the Dodgers GOT THERE in 06
After the Cubs traded him to the Dodgers who
were not doing well. Maddux was fantastic ( he almost pitched a no-hitter against the Reds his first game for them but got stymied by a rain delay ) . If you ask any
Dodger fan they will tell you getting Maddux made the difference.
Something to think about.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 8, 2008 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you think the Dodgers GOT THERE in 06
After the Cubs traded him to the Dodgers who
were not doing well. Maddux was fantastic ( he almost pitched a no-hitter against the Reds his first game for them but got stymied by a rain delay ) . If you ask any
Dodger fan they will tell you getting Maddux made the difference.
Something to think about.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 8, 2008 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
THANK YOU!
Too true! I think Maddux in the pen ensures we’re ready in October. I think we also offer WAY more run support than the Padres (and yes, I know Wrigley ain’t Petco), and look. Marquis is going to break down—Maddux is more than adequate to replace that, and he gets the front line starters (Z, Demp, Lilly) ready, and offers mentoring ability for Marshall and Gallagher, etc. This is a great trade in my mind, and we don’t have to give up much.
These are the saddest of possible words: "Tinker to Evers to Chance"
by slcathena on Jul 8, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The one and only Maddux
The guy who threw FIVE pitches to get the Marlins out last night
in the first inning. How bout some of you watch him pitch a game or two.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 8, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considering who is available
High grade bullpen arm is more likely to pay off more for us. Since the chance of getting a “frontline starting pitcher” is fairly unlikely.
by StevenABQ on Jul 8, 2008 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree on the bullpen arm
would love to see Linebrink in Cubbie Blue, I remember being a bit jealous when the Sox signed him.
Go ahead, Z me.
by tony412 on Jul 8, 2008 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
We all know what he can do and we could get rid of a couple relievers to AAA and get the good ones back when the rosters expand for the playoffs.
by pickupman21 on Jul 8, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I see IF Maddux came back
is he could be a Wakefield type pitcher for us. Pound another team with power starters z and Dempster and our bullpen then pitch the finesse pitcher in Maddux. Not saying he is the best choice or is a choice. That’s just what I see as his plus for us. Wakefieldand his knuckle ball has done wonders for the Red sox at times.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
by mrcubsfan on Jul 8, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately, Greg Maddux would exasperate the current condition of being overloaded with 5 and 6 inning pitchers
We are already in significant danger of running the bullpen ragged by the end of summer.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 1:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This is sort of an actual, real valid point.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 8, 2008 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just got back in town and was catching up. Saw this. Are you feverish? Should we call and ambulance?
by N Oakley on Jul 8, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said "sort of" and I stand by it...
getting Maddux is a sideways move. If we’re going to add something, I’d rather it be for someone who is going to make a bigger impact on the team. Otherwise, I’m willing to stand pat with what we’ve got.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 8, 2008 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slightly OT
Has the Lincecum article from SI been discussed around here?
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1141385/1/index.htm
The sections on Prior and Brownlie appear scary relevant as us fans clamor for a front line pitcher and the Oakland brass identified Prior and Brownlie up front as having breakdown issues.
by N Oakley on Jul 8, 2008 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read it.
Interesting, if a bit overdramatic, piece. He’s definitely a guy I’m going to be keeping an eye on. I’d do just about anything to see him in a Cubs uniform.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oakland brass
also acquired and held on to Rich Harden, and he’s not exactly been the picture of perfect health… just saying.
by jbau on Jul 8, 2008 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not only is he pitching this year,
the Cubs are considering the cost of acquiring. That sarcasm aside, I don’t know where he was drafted. The article says that Oakland just won’t use a high draft pick on a pitcher with potential for mechanical breakdown. High draft picks cost big dough up front, while lower picks are work the risk.
by N Oakley on Jul 8, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The word you're looking for is exacerbate.
And that’s not true – he would presumably replace one of our back-of-the-rotation starters. Not an improvement in the IP per start category, but there’s a difference between not solving a problem and making it worse.
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL, never has a Freudian slip been more appropriate.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
like I said before
BlueMike is king of exacerbating our exasperation.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I respectfully disagree
As much as I love Maddux and would like to have him back, the fact is he adds to our dilemma as opposed to solving it. What this rotation needs is a real frontline starting pitcher who can gobble innings. And our bullpen needs another quality arm or otherwise this already suspect pen will be in dreadful condition within another 6 weeks.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another point about Maddux
Unfortunately, Greg Maddux has historically been a very poor performer in the playoffs. Which isn’t altogether surprising given that the post-season is when the importance of the power pitchers rises to the surface. It’s another reason why I’m not wild about adding Maddux.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong.
10 League Division Series: 11 starts, 3.47 ERA
8 League Championship Series: 14 Starts, 3.80 ERA
3 World Series: 5 starts, 2.09 ERA
Overall Post season record: 30 GS, 194 IP, 3.34 ERA, 191 H, 72 ER, 50 BB, 122 K.
Once again, your drivel is wildly inaccurate.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Total pwnage.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's his Won-Loss Record? Not pretty
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And how about concentrating also on his performance since passing age 35 in the postseason
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hooray! Selective Endpoints!
You look at these thing on the whole, not in small sample sizes that only serve to confirm your biases.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the facts
But I will say a won-loss record of 10-11 is revealing. As our my own eyes in watching Maddux during the playoffs the past several seasons. He hasn’t lasted very long in many of the playoff starts I have seen. And yes it is relevant to look at the most recent portion of his career as opposed to 10 to 15 years ago while he was in his glory days with Atlanta. Maddux IS a 42 year old pitcher.
Point being, I’m not wild about adding him to the Cubs. Like has been stated by many, he adds to the dilemma of too many back of the rotation options.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Win-loss record doesn't tell you anything
about how well a pitcher has pitched. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada. And choosing selective endpoints to justify a demonstrably flawed point of view doesn’t make your abitraru cutoff of 35 years of age relevant, it only shows the flimsy logic on which your argument rests
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, it is revealling
He’s pitched more than 21 games in the post season. I’d like that experience handy.
These are the saddest of possible words: "Tinker to Evers to Chance"
by slcathena on Jul 8, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
moving the goal-posts
again, homeslice?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Won-Loss record is a meaningless stat.
And it’s 10-11, for the record. Try again.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please don't start judging pitchers by Wins and Losses...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 8, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cue snotty sabremagician comment in 5 and 4 and 3 and ...
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have to be kidding on the W-L
Last night was typical ONE EARNED RUN IN SIX INNINGS AND HTE got a
loss. He is third among all MLB starters in lowest run support. 11 of his 19 starts
are quality. He has given up 4 or more runs only 4 times. He is getting so F*&^%$ing
run support
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 8, 2008 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
Same for MAddux’ postseason record. He’s had 2-3 bad starts in the postseason, but overall, he’s pitched very well and gotten shoddy run support.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
W-L? WGARA?
Marmol got a W for his SF performance.
Dome-san!!
by Goat Whisperer on Jul 8, 2008 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Viagra, what?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
1st Letter = "Who" / 4th Letter = "Rats"
Dome-san!!
by Goat Whisperer on Jul 8, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow.
that’s really not bad at all. Give the man some run support, and that’s quite doable. I’d no idea he was that steady.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, a reasonable (if repetitive) response.
Kudos to you, sir!
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point about Maddux is that you nearly ALWAYS get the 6 innings
He is currently 13th among NL pitchers in innings pitched. Now if you all think Marquis
Gallagher/Marshall are MORE likely to give you a solid six innings than you just are not watching
games. Everyone has to stop confusing getting Maddux with the far less likely possibility of getting
Harden. They are not related. IF the Cubs can get an ace fine but don’t get your hopes up. If you want to significantly improve the back end of the rotation that is different. I can not say enough times that I think this comes down to what Maddux wants but frankly after last night maybe even he can’t take it anymore.
But for the sake of accuracy ( something often missing here) do not keep comparing getting Maddux for say Murton or a prospect and selling the farm to get Harden etc. Different deals for different reasons Now later I will post my how to get Marquis out of the way theory I sent Al this morning before Jazzman caused all this trouble
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 8, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jazzman the troublemaker!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 8, 2008 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That immoral jazz music will be the end of us all!
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
by northsider on Jul 8, 2008 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, he is STILL using exasperate.....
maybe he is choking on logic or something. Maddux can be a player/coach. He can give us quality innings and coach our staff. I mean if the Mesa folks can make a minor adjustment to Hill’s delivery and he throws 4 innings with one walk after ALL he went through, what the hell was Rothschild doing all that time? Get Maddux, have him as our #5 and as a pitching coach. A SS that can cover his area and those two things should stave off MDBNIU’s frightening Brewers…..
by crazymountain on Jul 8, 2008 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
However
we do have Marshall, Gallagher, Leiber who can all work multiple innings. You work Gallagher for a couple of innings, send him down bring someone else up. Until rosters are expanded that is.
They call me MISTER Fukudome!
by brokenland on Jul 8, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And...
Z, Dempster and Lilly have all worked deep this year. Not every start, but all three have given the bullpen some much needed rest.
They call me MISTER Fukudome!
by brokenland on Jul 8, 2008 1:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Marquis go long --
seven innings or so—his last start? And Gallagher is consistently working 6 innings, no?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not exactly
Gallagher went 6+ in 4 out of 10 starts and averaged 5.4. Marquis has averaged 5.8 per start. Marshall has averaged 5.9, and Maddux has averaged 6.
''Listen, losing Soriano is no box of chocolates.'' ~Lou Piniella
by JohnM on Jul 8, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
5.4 and 5.8
is consistently going six you have to take into account short outings bc of bad performance
by oeosoto on Jul 8, 2008 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Almost
I’m just trying the pre-empt the inevitable post that says Maddux is only a 5-inning pitcher, because it’s wrong, and because he averages a fraction more innings per start than three or four of the Cubs current back end guys.
''Listen, losing Soriano is no box of chocolates.'' ~Lou Piniella
by JohnM on Jul 8, 2008 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, but
Marquis DID go long in his last few starts.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know this
Marquis may be better then having Maddux to me
by oeosoto on Jul 8, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maddux- Wolf
If the Cubs can’t get a Hudson(doubt he will be on the market), Harden, Bedard, or Burnett. Then why not Maddux? If we don’t have the prospects to get a front of the rotation type starter, there’s nothing wrong with trading for Maddux. The why I look at is, who would we rather starting game three or four of a playoff series? Maddux or Marquis? I’d be more confident with Maddux going in that game any day of the week.
As for Randy Wolf, he’s been very inconsistent this season. 11 of his 18 starts have been quality starts, but he’s also had 4-5 starts were he’s given up 5-7 runs in 4 innings. Hendry might like him because he’s a simliar type pitcher to Ted Lilly, and maybe thinks he could improve by joining the Cubs. But personally I would rather just stick with Marquis, Gallagher or Marshall over Wolf.
by cubsfan25 on Jul 8, 2008 1:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wolf
I would be very mad if we got wolf. We already have 3 randy wolfs already on the team. The guy is a bum and would do nothing good for us.
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep...Lilly, Marquis, the Seans....we already have an overload of a commodity that Wolf (and Maddux) would add to
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just say no to Randy Wolf
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 1:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Randy Wolf is no different than Marquis or Marshall. Will Wolf have a really good game once in a while? Yes.
Is Wolf just as likely to put a stinker up every third or fourth start? Absolutely.
This team needs a #2, not another #4.
That said, a Wrigley “Wolf Den” with people in wolves masks doing the whole pull-the-lawnmower-chain-after-a-strikeout-in-unison thing, would be hilarious.
*Synth intro to "Jump"*
by SouthsideCub on Jul 8, 2008 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree....Wolf make little sense whatsoever....
...maybe if he comes for free, but that is about it.
by JB 23 on Jul 8, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Say it with me... Maddux is old
Not quite John McCain old, but old for a pitcher. He is not a solution to a team that needs a top-two guy in a pennant push. If Marquis or a back end of the rotation guy were to break down, then maybe, just maybe, Maddux would fit in. But for what the Cubs need now? No. And no Cubbie-blue colored classes will convince me otherwise.
In the middle of a good time, Truth gave me her icy kiss. Look around, you must be joking. All that way, all that way for this -Oysterband
by Ross on Jul 8, 2008 1:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Cubs don't lack back-of-the-rotation depth.
We have:
Marquis
Marshall
Gallagher
Lieber
Hart
available right now, and could press several of our other AAA arms into service if need be; to the extent that Maddux is an upgrade it’s highly debatable; to the extent that Wolf is an upgrade you’re reading the numbers wrong.
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 1:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed
They call me MISTER Fukudome!
by brokenland on Jul 8, 2008 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unnecessary worry
A lot of the last few days appears to be Cub fans worrying that the Brewers are going to sneak past us now that they got CC. They might. But I for one, for one of the few times in my life am not worried about the Cubs. So now we are worried about a hot ace starter. Something we actually don’t need. Our top two pitchers are going to the All Star game. Maddux would be fine by me. Put it this way: HE WON’T HURT US. At least I hope not. And he is probably going to come cheap.
As opposed to CC, which might be the most expansive gamble I have seen a team do in a long time. He is a rent-a-player for a team that may not make the playoffs because there is another team in their division that with or without that new player IS STILL BETTER. (Hint: it’s us).
They call me MISTER Fukudome!
by brokenland on Jul 8, 2008 1:54 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
The Cubs don't need another
back of the rotation guy.
by Rick B on Jul 8, 2008 1:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We got it already
No need to agree with what everyones been saying
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So WHY is Gary Hughes in San Diego?
There is nothing in San Diego that helps the Cubs. Not unless Kevin Towers is willing to trade away Heath Bell.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 1:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Heath Bell away from PetCo is not a pretty sight.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is that other set-up man who was lights out last year??
Kevin Cameron? There was another name that impressed in 2007.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
They had two high performers leading up to Hoffman. Bell and somebody who I forget his name. Cameron was decent, but not the 2nd name I’m thinking of.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cla Meredith perhaps or Royce Ring
All I can think of
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's it....Cla Meredith
Who has he been doing this year? I recall last year that Bell and he were lights out.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Justin Hampson and Kevin Cameron
Both era under 3
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cla Meredith.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because we know the Maddux and Wolf are not going to help
Doesn’t mean that Hendry still doesn’t have a vision of Randy Wolf in Cubbie Blue throwing a shutuout in the postseason
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm getting a Sean Estes / Glendon Rusch nightmare
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, he had that same vision with Steve Trachsel last year...
...let’s hope he learned from that.
Nobody cares about your fantasy league team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 8, 2008 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not Hendry
It’s Piniella that has a fetish for another lefty starter.
''Listen, losing Soriano is no box of chocolates.'' ~Lou Piniella
by JohnM on Jul 8, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Him and that lefty thing again...
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
And although he likes Marshall, he likes him as a sixth starter. He mentioned how with Marshall you can “pitch him on extra rest, in fact, he actually does better that way.” (paraphrase from Sunday recaps.) But he also goes on about needing a 2nd lefty in the rotation because the bullpen is mostly righty. He is one binary dude.
''Listen, losing Soriano is no box of chocolates.'' ~Lou Piniella
by JohnM on Jul 8, 2008 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't need a scout for Maddog
so ‘something’ else is up? Heath Bell?
This can’t be: Just what would Towers want for Peavy? Is there even a match anywhere?
Please no Wolf. That has to be plan-Q or something like that; right after keeping Marquis.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
by blackhawk24 on Jul 8, 2008 2:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No way Peavy gets dealt.
They just signed him to an extension. It’s got to be Bell, Meredith, Greene, Wolf, or Maddux.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they dealt Peavy
They’d have to move back to Qualcomm because the fans would burn Petco to the ground.
by Kornchex on Jul 8, 2008 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
No kidding.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least then you could easily get to the parking
and leaving would take less than half an hour.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 8, 2008 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope none.
Well I guess bullpen help aint so bad but Maddux and Wolf are just not good additions now.
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on Jul 8, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO to Hoffman... NO to Wolf... NO to Maddux
Why the hell is Gary Hughes there?
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
by SackMan on Jul 8, 2008 2:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
by northsider on Jul 8, 2008 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heath Bell & Clay Merideth
Maybe Gary Hughes is looking at possible bullpen additions?
Bell
====
49 Games
48 IP
36 H
39 Ks
1.01 WHIP
2.23 ERA
6-3 Record
Meredith
=======
45 G
43 IP
46 H
27 Ks
1.41 WHIP
3.95 ERA
0-2 Record
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 2:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Bell's road ERA is 2 runs higher than his home mark.
Beware the PETCO effect with him.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd Take either in a hurry
Bell is another power arm and Meredith is a solid young kid that pitches to contact but gets the outs when he needs to
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You do have to worry
About their home vs road splits
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope, the Padres get to worry about that.
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
by northsider on Jul 8, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's right
Both Bell and Meredith would provide a huge shot in the arm to the Cub bullpen
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better add their names to your sig line then.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maddux
What would his production be back at wrigley. He IS pitching in the best pitchers park in the majors. Coming to wrigley his numbers could explode.
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But here, he'd actually have an offence
and the knowledge he can impart is immeasurable. Can’t help but think how he called that game for Penny AGAINST the Cubs late in ‘06 when sitting in the dugout. Maddog is a walking MLB encyclopedia.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
by blackhawk24 on Jul 8, 2008 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randy Wolf Starts Tonight
Dear Randy,
Please suck balls tonight.
Thanks,
Cubs nation.
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
by SackMan on Jul 8, 2008 2:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd be interested in Bell
mainly because of the WHIP. That is pretty solid.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
by blackhawk24 on Jul 8, 2008 2:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
(BB + H) / IP is meaningless?
yeah right…
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
by blackhawk24 on Jul 8, 2008 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously.
Pitchers do not give up hits, pitchers give up balls in play. You’re essentially trying to grade pitchers on the part of their performance MOST dependent on the defense. It’s utterly meaningless.
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
of course. Walks are very dependent on their defense. The number of hits that a pitcher gives up that depend on their defense is miniscule compared to the total number of hits. so yes, it is an important stat.
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All hits depend on the defense.
Pitchers do not vary greatly on their ability to prevent hits on balls in play. The best way for a pitcher to prevent hits is to get strikeouts.
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
REALLY
HRS depend on defense line drives doubles you make no sense
by oeosoto on Jul 8, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Home runs are not balls in play.
They’re balls out of play, and accounted for seperately.
Pitchers do not meaningfully differ in their ability to prevent line drives, either.
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are they hits
are gappers the defenses fault, walks, singles up the middle,
by oeosoto on Jul 8, 2008 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
walks =/= hits
they’re not the same. A walk is totally due to the pitcher. A successful hit - ie, hitting the ball and getting on base - is not. A home-run is like a walk—totally due to the pitcher (and the wind, I suppose).
I understand where cwyers is coming from.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So HRs = foul balls
in your estimation? Except that HRs count as runs against?
I think Ks, while great, are not the hallmark of a great pitcher or the best way a pitcher can ensure himself against hits. The majority of great pitchers keep the opposition from making meaningful/solid contact; in your view, pitchers should always look for the K. We know what happens when they do that. See Z’s last few years, Woody’s K:BB ratios earlier in his career, etc.
"We are not equations with hats." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Jul 8, 2008 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, just that the defense has no ability to prevent home runs...
...except for a few edge cases at the wall.
But pitchers do not meaningfully differ in their ability to prevent hits on balls in play. That doesn’t mean that you should try to strike every batter out – a walk is bad more than a strikeout is good. But, controlling for walks and home runs allowed, a pitcher with more strikeouts is better than a pitcher with less.
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All hits depend on defense
I STRONGLY disagree.
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do HR's depend on defense?
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on Jul 8, 2008 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry got he answer...I am confused by this argument though.
Calm down.
by Kinky Reggae on Jul 8, 2008 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
-2
I disagre by a factor of .75. While pitchers may give up fewer hits given a particularly excellent defense, most pitchers plainly are responsible for the hits allow. Sharp grounders, line drives, deep flies into the gaps, etc. These hard hit balls, which make up a large percentage of “hits,” are ALL the pitchers’ faults. C’mon, Cwyers. You’re assuredness in your stats and how you interpret them is turning you into a very BlueMike-esque poster, but with numbers.
"We are not equations with hats." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Jul 8, 2008 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really care about assigning fault.
I care about differentiating between talent. Over the long term, there is not a significant difference between pitchers in their ability to prevent “Sharp grounders, line drives, deep flies into the gaps, etc.”
Look at Batting Average On Balls In Play – essentially:
Hits / At bats minus Home Runs Minus Strikeouts
The average BABIP is right around .280. Greg Maddux, for example, has a career .286 BABIP. Jason Marquis? Career .286 BABIP. I’m serious.
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So then FIP
is what differentiates the two? Simply control?
"We are not equations with hats." -Dean Young
by Kegler on Jul 8, 2008 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
FIP is a quick-and-dirty tool...
...that I propose largely for the ability to do the math on pen and paper; there are certainly elements to pitching that aren’t captured in FIP, but they aren’t as important as the ability to prevent walks and induce strikeouts.
[Some other things to consider, just off the top of my head, are double play tendencies (which is defense-dependant, but also something you can affect by getting more ground balls), the ability to limit extra bases on hits, and the ability to strand baserunners.]
But it’s meaningless to judge pitchers on hits allowed, because it’s the element of pitching that is least different from pitcher to pitcher.
As for what differentiates a guy like Marquis from Greg Maddux, control is probably it. Marquis just walks way too many batters. (Marquis also gives up way too many home runs, especially for a guy who’s supposedly a ground-ball pitcher.)
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what about walks?
Doesn’t that part of the equation serve some usefulness?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh.
We can look at walks on their own, or in relation to strikeouts.
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So would BABIP be the best measure...
...to judge relief pitchers? Or pitchers in general? Maybe that and K:BB ration?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ration = ratio
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitchers do not control BABIP meaningfully.
True talent level for BABIP is pretty much .280-.290 for all pitchers in MLB, outside of a few guys like Wakefield that throw the knuckler.
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if someone throws out a name like Heath Bell...
...what numbers would you recommend I look at? I’m just trying to figure out how to get a quick, reasonably accurate snapshot of a player.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you're looking for a quick-and-dirty number...
...to evaluate a pitcher, I use FIP:
( 13*HR + 3 * (HBP + BB) – 2 * K / IP ) + 3.2
It’s supposed to mimick ERA, so just interpret it that way. HardballTimes.com has FIP leaderboards.
by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cool, thanks!
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Color Of Eyes
That’s what I’m sticking with when it comes to measuring a pitcher’s effectiveness.
Eat More Katsui
by CaliCub on Jul 8, 2008 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tightness of their pants..
Is what my ex judges them by.
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
by Bump Bailey on Jul 8, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will judge them on the goodness in their hearts.
Er, well, on second thought, I’ll probably give this FIP thing a shot first.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need more bi-color-eyed pitchers!
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
by northsider on Jul 8, 2008 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say
one of the most important stats in baseball
by oeosoto on Jul 8, 2008 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well that's just plain silly
Especially when talking a middle and set-up relief man.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah?
tell my fantasy league that…:)
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
by Bump Bailey on Jul 8, 2008 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heath Bell
Could be the guy to replace Michael Weurtz. I cringe every time they put weurtz on the mound. Seems like his line evry time out is 0.0 innings 1 hit or 0 innings 1 bb
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Michael Wuertz sucks
It is clear that Lou Piniella has significantly soured on Wuertz. It should be only a matter of time before he is gone for good.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. Go Brewers!
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Michael Wuertz
has an ERA of 2.70 and an ERA+ of 164 this seaon. He is on pace to appear in 70 games, I believe Lou has HARDLY soured on Wuertz
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Jul 8, 2008 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Michael Weurtz Blows
There is no argument. He may not give up runs but every time he comes in to face a particular batter he walks him or gives up a hit. The guy is a bum and Lou certainly has soured on him.
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
School's out.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, really?
So who is this “particular batter”? Let me know and I’ll mention it to Lou, so Wuertz never faces him again!
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
typical michael weurtz
take a look at his line in this game and there are many more like it http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore;_ylt=Agj_Noo5LARLqm6oehlgituFCLcF?gid=280601116
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That link is unclickable.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
more examples
apr 15, apr 23, may 19, may 21, jun 1, jun 2, jun 17, jun 24
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still too small.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
twss
awww yeahhh!!!
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's a box score
Cubs vs Rockies. Wuertz came on in relief, gave up 1 hit, one BB.
So?
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He comes in1
gives up a walk and a hit and exits. His era stays exactly the same and all in all his stats show a solid pitcher. If you actually bother to look at his performances youd see that he has done nothing this year.
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did look at his performance
I displayed it above. Somehow, you seem to ignore that part.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
link didnt work
anyways its the june 1 game against colorado
by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Small sample.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, daver, you've got it wrong.
The batter is particular. He only eats the finest meats and cheeses, washed down with the finest Bordeaux. His suits are perfectly tailored, and he reads only the most esoteric experimental literature. Even Proust is low-borw to this particular batter. Form his extreme Particularity, he derives an incredible ability to always hit Michael Wuertz.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is THE MOST INTERESTING BASEBALL PLAYER IN THE WORLD.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
did you NOT
read the statistics above?
Another stat—in his 36.7 innings, he’s given up 16 runs. That’s right within the margin of error for his 70-innings/30 runs for last year.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
36.7 Innings pitched:
ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
2.70 4.48 166 1.336
Brewdinal strikes again.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know Cwyers thinks it is "meaningless"
but for those of us who might disagree Maddux is 11th in the NL WHIP for starting pitchers
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 8, 2008 2:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What's his WHIP away from Petco?
I’d bet the farm it’s nowhere near 11th.
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
by Bump Bailey on Jul 8, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randy Wolf or Maddux would only limit this team's capabilities for october
If there is not a deal out there for a front line starter or quality bullpen arm, don’t bother to make a deal at all, because those are our glaring holes right now
"This is why Major League Baseball does not need instant replay, because then every single play will then be reviewed." -- Joe Morgan, 5/18/08, referring to an umpire ruling a Carlos Delgado homerun foul when replays showed it hit the foul pole.
by CubsBall2202 on Jul 8, 2008 2:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep...
But I will say this, I strongly believe Jim Hendry will engineer a substantial addition to the bullpen. If he is unsuccessful in adding a frontline starting pitcher then the next best solution is to significantly goose up the bullpen. He may even add a major closer and have him slot into a setup role. Or he may go out and add a Heath Bell type and/or a Brian Fuentes.
Get Rich Harden, Tim Hudson or AJ Burnett RIGHT NOW !!! No more living in denial and rationalizing away the holes on this pitching staff. No more Luvable Loser syndrome getting in the way of gunning for a World Series.
by MDBNIU on Jul 8, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shouldn't your sig line reflect this strong belief?
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm afraid
I have no confidence in a man who won’t adapt his sig-line to reflect his beliefs.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not too bad...
We needed relief from the “bad” Summer League Bulls, and if somebody is a ‘traitor’ if they work for the Cardinals.
Glad I could add some real discussion to the mix.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 8, 2008 2:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't want either Maddux or Wolf...
One is done, the other just isn’t very good. Can’t see how this would be an improvement on what we already have. It’s time to win now, and not bow to sentiment or percieved value.
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
by Bump Bailey on Jul 8, 2008 2:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
FYI, Heath Bell is probably
somebofy the Padres won’t trade.
Also, 1 ER last night i for Maddux is correct. The “2 earned runs” came right out of the game story of the U/T, which apparently has let all of their editors go. The paper is a big as a PennySaver these days.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 8, 2008 2:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree SDSJM
They’ll need a closer next year to replace Hoffman (if Hoffman retires). If not, they’ll need him the year after that. You know darn well that they won’t go out and sign a high priced closer either, so it will have to come from inside the organization.
(Side note, you don’t work for the SDCC Radio Station by any chance, do you?)
by Kornchex on Jul 8, 2008 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do work for Clear Channel/SD. Not for any specific station, tho.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 8, 2008 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, let me amend that --
I don’t work for the sports station, if that is what you are referring to. I will turn up on KOGO at times, as a news fill-in. but I have other responsibilities.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 8, 2008 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't mess with me on those UNearned runs
No more spring training tickets for you. Hey I could have scalped that puppy for at least 30 bucks.
I
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 8, 2008 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"somebody the Padres won't trade."
I’ve let my staff go, too. Budget cuts.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 8, 2008 2:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
(Daver sings) Everybofy, needs somebofy...
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It sounds like the assumption
is being made that its Maddux/Wolf or a front line starter. Couldn’t it be both? Maddux, for one, will be very cheap. That would put Marquis and Marshall in the bullpen.
Formerly NO100
by jerry morales rules on Jul 8, 2008 2:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Lets Just sign
FREDDY GARCIA and not make a trade
by oeosoto on Jul 8, 2008 2:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's low risk move.
It’s not a bad idea, actually, the more I think about it.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we can't get Harden
or Burnett i say sign Garcia all it costs is money
by oeosoto on Jul 8, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Might make sense.
The worst thing that can happen is you spend the league minimum, he’s done, and you cut him.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worked for Edmonds.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 8, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So far, yes.
It might just be a smart move to kick the tires on ol’ Fred.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he
wants more then the minimum but still
by oeosoto on Jul 8, 2008 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He can't want too much more.
Beggars can’t be choosers.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on how he looks.
He’s just trying to convince teams he can still throw the baseball at this point.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've heard
he looks good but i am pretty sure it came from his camp so how useful is that?
by oeosoto on Jul 8, 2008 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha
This organization does not take on pitcher reclamation projects. This organization makes them (see Baker, Dusty)
by N Oakley on Jul 8, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
Ryan Dempster
Scott Williamson
Chad Fox
The Cubs most certainly do take on reclamation projects.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
was kidding
However, there are very few success stories. Dempster granted. I should have said limited success with reclamation. Very few has beens turnaround mid-season like the cards did for Weaver.
I will ask, as the Cubs have broken Fox twice, does he count.
by N Oakley on Jul 8, 2008 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fox was broken when the Cubs got him,
then they broke him twice. Yikes.
It is rare. Dempster and Wood are great examples of what can happen. Unfortunately, they are the rarities. Many more guys lie on the other side.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus
Wade Miller, from 04-06 it seemed like Jim Hendry had one every year.
by cubsfan25 on Jul 8, 2008 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My language was corrected by Mr. Varsho
However, taking on a reclamation project and succeeding with one is very different. There are very few successes. The Cubs do not have the reputation of the Cards when it comes to turning around a struggling/injured pitcher mid-season.
by N Oakley on Jul 8, 2008 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dave Duncan is a master.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If reclamation is our desire, Joe Borowski is available, not
that I’m recommending it.
by billybuck on Jul 8, 2008 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do. Not. Want.
JoBo is done.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07
by gary varsho on Jul 8, 2008 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, heck.
I mean, if we’re going to Pull Out All The Stops…
Roger.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 3:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
with or without Viagra and steroids?
But hey i am sure Mike would be for it. I mean he IS an ace.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 8, 2008 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing Else Matters.
"We expect to win. We go out to win. So we're just living up to our own expectations." Derrek Lee, 5/29/08
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2008 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
SDSJM, do you do on-air work then? “news fill-in”, from above.
Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager
by northsider on Jul 9, 2008 1:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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